Pirates Trade Eric Hinske to Yankees, Morgan and Burnett to Nats
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 30, 2009 1:49 PM EDT
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PrintThe Pirates have traded Eric Hinske and cash to the Yankees for minor league pitcher Casey Erickson and minor league outfielder/catcher Eric Fryer. Garrett Jones will replace Hinske on the 25-man roster.
Erickson was mostly used as a starter last year and he pitched well, but he was too old for his level. He struggled in a few starts this year but took off upon being sent to Class A+ Tampa's bullpen, where he's struck out a batter per inning and posted a 1.10 ERA.
Fryer had a strong year in 2008 for West Virginia, back when the Power was a Brewers affiliate, then got shipped to New York for Chase Wright. He's been terrible so far this year and, at 23, needs to get moving to be a real prospect. This is only his second full year in pro ball, so I suppose it's possible he'll do that. Milwaukee scouts were supposedly furious when the Brewers traded him, but he hasn't done much since the deal. His solid 2008 numbers were propelled largely by a .335 batting average, and I'd best against him putting up a number like that again. He steals bases and is pretty athletic in a way that's unusual for a catcher. He looks like a pretty good buy-low player, but he is still 23 and is posting a .677 OPS at Class A+.
Both these players are fringe prospects, but then the Pirates really weren't giving up a lot. Hinske had only received 106 at bats for the Bucs. I like him a lot better than I like Jones, who's just a garden-variety AAA player, but if neither of them will ever play, the issue is moot. If either Erickson or Fryer make the big leagues, the Bucs come out ahead here.
The Pirates could also end up trading Nyjer Morgan to the Nats for outfielder Lastings Milledge today. As I implied a few days ago, I'd be very much on board with this deal. Morgan is a nice defensive outfielder but really has no offensive ability, and while Milledge is pretty likely to be a complete bust, he does have at least some chance of becoming a star.
UPDATE: The Post-Gazette reports that the final Morgan/Milledge deal also includes Joel Hanrahan coming to the Bucs and Sean Burnett going to the Nats. Hanrahan is an occasionally frustrating pitcher who was nonetheless very good last year and throws really hard. (Last time I saw him, he hit 97 repeatedly.) Burnett has pitched better than ever this year, but he still has just a 95:77 K:BB ratio in 160 big-league innings. Hanrahan has a 7.33 ERA this year, but has struck out more than twice as many batters as he walked. He also struck out 93 batters as a reliever for the Nats last year. This looks like a great sell-high, buy-low opportunity for the Pirates. I wouldn't bet on Burnett continuing to be successful. I'll take the hard-throwing guy who strikes people out. Even though I think Neal Huntington generally overvalues that type of reliever, I think he's got it right here.
UPDATE: The Morgan/Burnett deal is done. The Hinske trade didn't wow me, but I love the Morgan/Burnett deal. The Pirates are trading two fringy big leaguers at what could be the peak of their values for two players they couldn't have bought lower on. It's far from clear that Milledge or Hanrahan will contribute, but both have upside, especially Milledge, who PECOTA compared to Dwight Evans, Ellis Burks, Andre Dawson and Grady Sizemore before the season. Milledge is a much worse defensive outfielder than Morgan, and even I think it's a longshot that he'll become half of what Sizemore is or Dawson was, but I love that the Pirates are taking the chance. Morgan has become a great defensive outfielder, but that's really all there is to recommend him. And Burnett has posted dismal strikeout and walk numbers for about half a decade now; that he has an ERA around three right now owes to the Pirates' defense and plain luck. Hanrahan has struggled last year, but he was a horse last year, he strikes batters out, and he has very good stuff. He also has an incredible .451 batting average on balls in play this year, which basically means you can dismiss that high ERA, because luck and/or the Nats' defense has simply killed him. (Burnett's BABIP is an absurdly low .218.) Buy low, sell high. This is a really nice deal, in my opinion.
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I was just looking at Milledge’s PECOTA projections. His weighted mean for this year is .285/.352/.441 and his Upside scores are much higher than I would have expected from his performance. He hasn’t really performed the last few years, but it loves him for his comparable players, including Ellis Burks and Dwight Evans in the top 5.
I still think trading Morgan for Milledge has a more than 50-50 chance of being a downgrade, mostly because Milledge is pretty bad defensively, but I’m a lot more optimistic about his offensive potential than I was yesterday.
I wrote about this in the comments the other day. Andre Dawson and some other really good players are on there too.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 30, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I love PBC Blog
Re: Hinske
I completely agree with you this was not a great move, i believe Hinske’s lack of production {HR} was more of an indictment of the Pirates not having enough around him to make him a valuable extra part.
Hinske certainly didnt STINK, he had some excellent at bats and had some quality starts. Great to have Jones up here but you now basically have 4 young every day players. MOSS-YOUNG-JONES-PEARCE who are not going to play every day, is that a great move?
What we got in return ???? who knows they might work out and this could be a great trade, but we wont know until 2011 probably but today June 30 2009 i look upon this as much as a lost opportunity as much as a POTENTIAL opportunity in the future.
Yes, Hinske was the final piece of the Pirates puzzle…
I'm droppin' flava, my behavior is hereditary--but my technique is very necessary.
Young, Jones, and Pearce aren’t really young any more. Pearce is the baby of the bunch and he’s already 26.
That third paragraph doesn’t make any sense at all.
Young is only 26. He’s not old by any means. Jones is older (29), but he has been great at Indy. I’m eager to see what he does with the big club. My guess? Jones is A LOT better than Pearce the rest of the way. If NyMo is traded, could we see a Cutch, Moss, and Jones outfield? Or Cutch, Moss, and Young outfield?
Jones had an .850 OPS at Indy, which translates to a .259/.296/.410 line in Pittsburgh. That’s Brad Eldred with less power. I agree that Delwyn Young still has a little more promise, but his AAA numbers are a lot worse than they appear because of the context. Nothing in his history suggests that he can continue at his current level. It’s not impossible, so I hope he gets a little more of a shot, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
I agree
I read that blog and this one everyday. I have a great time on here. Over there…the comments are some of the most ridiculous things people can think up
I don't even waste my time
reading their comments. Dejan does such a good job, there’s really no reason to read the yinzer thread. This blog seems to do a good job with attracting the more “informed” crowd, and I enjoy reading most of the comments.
I just love reading dumb comments, bad amazon.com reviews and idiotic espn.com slapfights to waste time. The Yahoo news ones were a riot back in the day, but they’ve since been shut down (probably a service to humanity, honestly…)
I'm droppin' flava, my behavior is hereditary--but my technique is very necessary.
Like this one:
yea—lets get another cancer clubhouse guy —maybe his wife can steal twins or something
what a joke—the more i read this blog the more i have come to realize that most people that follow the pirates have some preconceived notion that we need 9 stars to win games….
2 things: one ..that never happens (players who have all the talent in the world are never a lock to be winners)….tow—character counts—this milledge guy is a turd —quit on his teammates…hurt.. a whiner… why in the hell would the pirates take this type of guy in exchange for a guy who busts his butt allthe time and works hard every day..and is playing…not hurt?
nice pass everyone is giving to pbc on hinske— the signed that guy for 1.5 mill and have to pay for him to go away..could have kept doug m for 750 k—and he was way more better ….even had more power than mr 1 hr guy….
leads me to believe to bringout the old mantra
STOP THE CIRCUS…SELL THE TEAM
get ready to cheer the reincarnation of goege hendrick bozos
I'm droppin' flava, my behavior is hereditary--but my technique is very necessary.
lol
He said ‘way more better’. I hope he/she doesn’t expect to be taken seriously.
I'm getting hard on myself, sitting in my easy chair.
And dont miss
“goege hendrick.”
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 30, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Morgan v. Milledge
Apart from being one of the more interesting name swaps in recent MLB history, I think the proposed Nyjer Morgan deal stinks. Morgan is not likely to be much better than he is right now, true, and he’s not an all-star. But he’s a great outfielder (see the last post on the Bucs’ defense helping their young pitching) with decent speed on the bases who gets on enough and scores enough runs to be a legit everyday player. He’s also a CHARACTER guy, a scrapper, which is big for building a young team. Milledge is a headcase who has underperformed. He has a high likelihood of being bad for team chemistry. He’s a lazy defender. He also doesn’t fit into the Pirates’ rebuilding plan, he’s already logged a couple years of unspectacular major league service and, while he’s still young, isn’t a prized prospect any more.
I think the potential damage this does to the clubhouse alone makes nixing the deal a smart move. Huntington needs to not be tempted by the big name. Milledge was big as a prospect, but he’s already had a chance to play with NY and WSH and hasn’t panned out.
I hope this is one of those “best trades are the ones you don’t make” deals.
Character guys & Scrappy!
I’m not going to go all Keith Law on you, but that is just silly stuff. How many games did we lose with Dougie M. last year? Talent wins games. This is a talent upgrade. Simple as that. And how does the guy not fit in the team rebuilding plan when he is 24 and the guy we traded turns 29 in two days? That’s idiotic.
Idiotic is as idiotic does
DM is not Lastings Milledge. Maybe your’e still reacting to the Hinske trade? Not sure, but Morgan is a much better (and younger) player than Mientkiewicz was (though they are probably comparable defensively), and he’s an every day player, not a platoon guy.
Milledge doesn’t fit the bill because he’s already a major league bust, not because I’m confused about his age. If your plan is to stockpile talent, you don’t do it with guys who are already on the verge of being in the “where are they now” category. And Milledge is clearly almost there. You’re right that it’s a talent upgrade, but so what? Talent by itself doesn’t win ballgames any more than character. Hitting and fielding win ballgames, though, and Morgan does more of both than Milledge.
Also, character does matter. I wouldn’t ever argue for character in place of talent, I’d rather win than have everyone be friends. But if the average age of your locker room is too young, it really helps to have the more experienced players not be idiots who wander in late for meetings (see Manny Ramirez for the ridiculous extreme of how much talent can be outweighed by bad character). And to those who say MIlledge’s issues are behind him: why has he missed team meetings and been in trouble in a year when he’s hitting (when he’s in the lineup at all) anemically? He should be busting his tail to prove he’s not a washup and instead he’s proving critics right. I hope he pans out, he’s got plenty of tools, but he has yet to make any significant impact in the bigs and he’s had plenty of chances.
At 29 Morgan is a stopgap, true, but he’s a stopgap who plays great defense, hits respectably (he’s third on the team in BA, incidentally, about 200 points higher than Milledge was hitting when he was shelved).
So, while I would not say the trade is “idiotic,” because that would be harsh and uncalled for, and I like to support my team even when I’m being critical, I would say it’s a risk that’s not worth taking.
Why is he
a bust at 24? You do realize that Morgan made the majors at 27? Seriously, explain it to me? Is he a bust because he had a lot of hype at a young age?
You traded....
two guys who are useful but not important to the team’s larger future success for two guys with a lot of talent and potential. I realize “potential” means you aren’t worth a damn yet, and the trade may not work out, but it is a very good move for this organization at this point on the timeline.
I’m not comparing Morgan to Milledge, they’re obviously different players. I’m talking about what’s good for the team.
I stand to be proven wrong on Milledge. But he is a bust right now because he’s already a vet and they’re stuck with him in their outfield. If he were at AAA I’d be all for the trade, baggage and all. But he’s already been in MLB for several seasons.
Here are his numbers:
Almost 900 ABs, or basically two full seasons (which he has yet to play) 107 runs, 234 hits, 25 dingers, 113 RBIs, 187Ks to 64 BBs, 29 steals and 13 CS. And a .263 average. What is it, exactly, that’s so exciting about this guy? I mean on the field, not name-recognition wise?
It’s not like he’s some young kid coming up through the minors with as yet unproven potential. He’s had a shot for several seasons. 24 is young, younger than some prospects we’re still hoping to come through for us, but he can’t be sent down at this point, not if you want him to be a productive part of the team. He’s used to being at the major league level and, I’m guessing, wouldn’t react terribly well to a demotion. So pencil him in, and hope he stops striking out so much, starts hitting better, and learns to play defense.
The Nats....
sent him down in April. He’s basically been down in AAA all year. We sent Gorzo down, Snell went down. If he performs he’ll play. If he doesn’t he won’t. But we aren’t “stuck with him in the outfield.”
So now that he IS in AAA are you all for the trade?
He’s rehabbing from a broken finger, not the same thing. And no.
But to be honest, I’m really not that against it either, I just don’t like Milledge and don’t think it’s a good move. Feels like they’re trying to trade anything with value, up to a point.
Actually...JDJD...
dtoddwin is right. Milledge is NOT on the major league disabled list. Milledge was optioned to Syracuse on April 14th after being late for 2 team meetings. He broke his finger while playing for Syracuse in May…had surgery on it…and just started rehabbing last weekend.
When healthy
Milledge will be in AAA.
Salazar getting the call up.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
And Milledge is clearly almost there. You’re right that it’s a talent upgrade, but so what? Talent by itself doesn’t win ballgames any more than character. Hitting and fielding win ballgames, though, and Morgan does more of both than Milledge.
That’s a great line…too bad it was ruined by the rest of your post.
And thanks for pointing out Manny…aka a world champion and one of the greatest hitters of all time regardless of his “charater issues”
HOW DOES HIS CHARACTER OUTWEIGH HIS TALENT?????
What's funny about all this...
is when Morgan was batting like a buck 20 in spring, people couldnt wait to see him back in AAA. If this possible deal would’ve went down then, would fans be so opposed as they seem to be now?
We should make the Nyjer/Lastings deal.
Let’s face it. NyMo, although exciting and fast, is 29 years old and has hit his ceiling. This is the best we could have hoped for out of Nyjer. I don’t think any of us expected NyMo to hit .275 all year. After all, this was a guy who almost didn’t make the team out of spring training. We need some more power, and while all that speed at the top of the lineup is nice, we need balance throughout the lineup. We need to trade Nyjer while his value is at his highest right now. NyMo has hit his ceiling. Lastings Milledge, although he seems to be a headcase at times, is very young (24) and hasn’t even come close to scratching the surface of his true potential. This deal makes all the sense in the world. I think if you can get Milledge around the right people, he can starting maturing and start being the player that everyone thought he could be when he came up with the Mets (he was the Mets’ No. 1 prospect a couple years ago). He will provide pop and is pretty fast himself, although not on NyMo’s level. I don’t know what NH is waiting on, honestly. Maybe he’s trying to squeeze one more high-end prospect out of the Nats, but I would take this deal right now. It’s a steal, in my opinion.
He and Cutch
are apparently friends, so that might have a positive impact on his “attitude problems,” which I still contend aren’t that big of a deal…
I'm droppin' flava, my behavior is hereditary--but my technique is very necessary.
It’s not. His “attitude problem” stemmed from him celebrating as a rookie with the Mets when he would make big plays or get big hits. People didn’t like how he celebrated and “showed up” the other team. Are you kidding? The kid was 22 at the time. It’s his first taste of success in the big leagues and honestly, he was just immature about it all. I think people are making a lot more out of this than it really is. He still has some growing up to do, but I think he’ll be fine. He just needs to perform on the field.
It was more than just the celebrations
It was playing terrible D.
Ignoring what the coaches told him about working counts.
Angering teammates with his behavior.
Showing up late for meetings and practice
etc. Google his comments after his demotion.
RIP NATE. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN...MISTER TONY PLUSH!
So we will expect
the Nats to move into contention now that their “clubhouse cancer” is gone and all their problems are solved. (Seriously, I think sportswriters just fall in love with the alliterantion of terms like that; I remember when you couldn’t read a football story that didn’t contain the phrase “quarterback controversy,” which was just as dumb, since there’s never a controversy in the head coach’s mind, and he’s the only one that counts).
If there's been a clubhouse cancer...
in the Nats clubhouse since April 14th…it isn’t Milledge. He’s been at AAA or on the DL since then.
It will be interesting to see...
what tonight’s lineup looks like when it gets posted. If there is any fire to the smoke on a Morgan trade…you will see Brandon Moss in LF….and manager’s choice in RF (Young, Pearce, Jones). If there’s any chance of a deal going through tonight…Morgan won’t play.
That being said…it certainly appears the fuse has been lit on the stick of dynamite that will blow the 2009 Pirates up. It just remains to be seen what the return is. I don’t think we wait until July 31st for most of any trades that get made.
The Hinske trade was just shuffling deck chairs…no real effect on this year’s team…or likely any future team…just more minor league depth. A Morgan-Milledge trade might have an effect on the future…and from my view…more positives than negatives if everything falls right.
lineups:
Pirates’ lineup:
1. McCutchen, CF
2. Sanchez, 2B
3. Young, RF
4. Adam LaRoche, 1B
5. Andy LaRoche, 3B
6. Moss, LF
7. Diaz, C
8. Wilson, SS
9. Ohlendorf, P
Cubs’ lineup:
1. Soriano, LF
2. Fukudome, 8
3. Lee, 1B
4. Fox, 3B
5. Hoffpauir, RF
6. Soto, C
7. Fontenot, 2B
8. Theriot, SS
9. Lilly, P
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 30, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh ok. Why would we want ANYBODY from the Nats’ bullpen? I understand ours is kind of a patchwork deal right now with Yates and Hansen out, but has NH seen that bullpen perform this year? One word: ABYSMAL!
Hanrahan is awful
At least in the closer role. Or any other role.
http://www.rakesofmallow.com
by CW on Jun 30, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Burnett to Hanrahan looks like a downgrade in the Pen to me, but I’d still say the Pirates win this deal by a hair because of Milledge.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 2:43 PM EDT reply actions
It's
a downgrade if you look at solely this year’s stats. I like hanrahan more than Burnett. Better stuff and better potential
Ugh! Burnett was my boy
I guess I’ll have to retire turning my had sideways when he enters the game
That can only be a good thing.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 30, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wait, what? I’d do Burnett for Hanrahan straight up. Burnett’s career K/BB is 1.23 and Hanrahan’s is 1.82. Burnett allows more homers too. I think NH just fleeced whomever’s running the ship in Washington.
by shayborg on Jun 30, 2009 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree. Anyone who gets too worked up about Burnett has probably totally lost perspective.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My comment wasn't worked up
I just was happy for him finally making it after all the setbacks. I really think this is a little lopsided for the Bucs
Overall...
I agree that long term…Hanrahan could be more beneficial to the Pirates than Burnett. He has closed at times…which is a benefit during those times Cappy’s elbow gets sore. And remember…this IS the Nationals he was pitching for…where the outfielders (and some of the infielders) need to wear hard hats…so they don’t get hit in the head.
Couldn't agree more.
This trade is a home run. We basically gave up nothing for a lot of potential. It certainly may not work out, but their is nothing taken away from the club in giving up Morgan and Burnett. Moss/Young/Pearce/Jones more than fill in for Morgan. Burnett has not been good until this year and his peripherals are bad as Shayborg points out. Love it. Coonington with another winner to add to the McLouth deal.
Uh, that's kind of crazy
Moss/Young/Pearce/Jones more than fill in for Morgan
Not a single one of those guys is a plus LF; Young and Pearce are bad defenders in RF (or anywhere else). Young is the only one who has shown himself to be a much better hitter than NyjMo (Moss, when good, is better, but he’s only been good for about 7 weeks of the 12 we’ve played). I don’t know much about Jones’ D, but there’s no way it approaches NyjMo’s, and it’s unlikely that his O will make up the dozen runs he costs us in the field.
Get ready for some ugly fielding, folks.
???
Moss is an above average outfielder. I love the switch. Last year with Bay, Nady, McLouth no one ever said a word about defense. Now with Morgan, offense is irrelevant. Comedy.
by David Todd on Jun 30, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Although any player is fair game to get traded, I really don’t see any reason to trade Capps. He is young (25) and will definitely (if not traded) be a part of the next winning team in Pittsburgh. He’s a good, young closer and trading him would make no sense.
It would make plenty of sense seeing we really don't need a closer right now
He has the talent and youth that could yield a MI prospect we’ve been looking for in all of these trades
I know that the Rays and Angels are looking for pitching
He’s been a solid closer the past 2 years. If we can get someone like Wood for Capps you have to pull the trigger.
Oh yeah, you’re right. If we can get THAT kind of return for Capps, then yeah, definitely pull the trigger. I just don’t see other teams giving up some of their top prospects for Capps.
Do the Angels even like Wood?
It’s kinda awful how they’ve been dealing with him
Bullshit
He is young (25) and will definitely (if not traded) be a part of the next winning team in Pittsburgh.
The next winning team in Pittsburgh will be 2011 only if everything goes right, and only if by “winning” you mean 82-80. And Capps is gone after that year. If NH is committed to blowing this team (which has an expected record of 82-80) up, then he should commit to it and get max value for max players. Matt Capps will not be a difference-maker on a Pirates playoff team. Trade him for someone who could be.
Wow…Capps will be a old geezer at the age of 27 in 2011. What? Capps could definitely be a piece on the next contending Pirates team.
hanrahan's 2008 numbers
G W L IP H R ER HR BB K ERA WHIP BAA
69 6 3 84.1 73 40 37 9 42 93 3.95 1.36 .233
Hanrahan was thought to be the Nationals best reliever at the beginning of this year…
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT reply actions
If anyone else goes in the next few days this will be NH’s Six Day War
RIP NATE. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN...MISTER TONY PLUSH!
Make some good trades
and then sign Sano….I could really enjoy this Six Day War
This is a steal, fellas! I love the trade, although I’m not sure we had to throw an extra player in there. If the Nats really wanted him, we should’ve gotten Milledge and Hanrahan straight up for NyMo. Oh well, this is a good trade. If you would have told me in spring training that we could trade NYJER MORGAN for Lastings Milledge, I would’ve asked to personally check you into a mental hospital.
No one but Cutch is untouchable
I am all for trading Capps for the right return. NH is making deals that are smart with return that most always favors us. I love the trade with the Nats. Can’t believe what we were able to pull for NyMo!
A lot has changed since April. Milledge was being hyped as one of the league’s biggest breakout candidates for 09, and most were arguing that Nyjer should not be a ML starter. Obviously some things have happened along the way, but the talents on each side have not changed, and this looks like a great deal to me regardless of the relievers.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
So what's the over/under
On how many defensive runs this outfield gives up over the next 3 months?
Sounds like Milledge is a week or more away on rehab; what hideous OF will play tonight?
As if it matters.
No.....
Because their is more space in LF doesn’t diminish his skill set. Sure he won’t cover as much ground as Morgan, but he’ll be just fine. Christ, Jason Bay played out there for a bunch of years.
and adam laroche is an above average first baseman but that doesn’t make him a good shortstop.
of course he won’t cover as much ground. that’s the problem.
Seriously....that's your argument. Adam Laroche isn't a good shortstop?
Nobody in the league, save Cutch, probably covers as much ground as Morgan. JFC, Jason Bay played out there for five years and he was terrible. Moss will be fine and he has Cutch in center.
comparing first base
and shortstop and equating that with left and right field is one of the, and I hate to use this term, dumbest posts ever.
Because their is more space in LF doesn’t diminish his skill set
you’re saying the additional ground to cover in left field does not diminish moss’ skill set as a right fielder, therefore he’s a decent left fielder.
i’m saying the additional ground to cover at shortstop does not diminish laroche’s skill set as a first baseman but that doesn’t mean he’s a good shortstop.
who’s argument is dumber?
His skill set
is his skill set? Do you understand how they measure defense metrics? Whether he is playing in a little league park or Yellowstone he is going to measure roughly the same because of how the look at zone ratings.
My argument is that people are making it sound like playing left field in PNC is like splitting the atom. It isn’t.
yeah i suppose you’re right. sometimes i like to argue just to argue. i mean, that’s why the internet was invented wasn’t it? :)
Maybe we should ask Al Gore.....
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 30, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Adam LaRoche Is Not An Above Average First Baseman
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Jesus.
You do realize that left and right field are essentially similar fielding spots. Just one has to make the throws. The difference between first base and short stop is leagues harder. SS is the hardest position to play aside from catcher, defensively. First base is the easiest. Don’t be foolish.
Size Matters
LF, as covered by NyjMo this year, is 64% larger than RF as covered by Moss.* Insofar as both entail catching fly balls, yes they are similar. But the idea that, because a player is good at catching flyballs hit into a smallish area, he will be just as adept at catching them in a much larger area, is not very good.
- Nyjer covered more than 2/3 of an acre; Moss about 2/5. Data based on my own overlay using satellite pic from Google (I’m not crazy; I’m an architect, so I’ve done it before, and it took maybe 5 minutes)
Look....
we all agree that their will be some dropoff in how well Moss plays LF vs. Morgan. The organization is better today than it was yesterday.
Correct sir
That should be the point. Not if the team will give up an extra quarter or a run (or whatever the hell it would be) today. They got a promising prospect, who slipped a little in standing with his team because of maturity issues, for Nyjer Morgan. Nyjer is completly the opposite of Lastings, tons of personality but no upside. And Hanerhan’s BABIP is insane because of Washington’s awful defense.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 30, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Moss’ skillset is a decent glove, decent routing, and a strong arm. Routing is the only one of those that will be valuable much in LF. You know those down-the-line doubles people complained about with NyjMo’s shifted positioning? Get ready for those to still drop in, but with additional triples to the Notch. Awesome.
Also, Jason Bay was one of the better offensive LF in baseball (which compensated for being one of the worse defensive LF). Moss is, uh, not.
Also, Moss’ UZR is half NyjMo’s.
Nyjer's
UZR was helped out because left field at PNC is bigger than a normal left field. In other words, it was inflated.
Oh, Good Thing Then
That Moss won’t have to play left field in PNC Park.
Are you saying that Bay’s UZR was helped out by playing at PNC? That he would have had worse defensive numbers playing in a smaller LF? I’m trying to follow the argument.
I’m pretty sure that UZR looks at how well a player covers his zone. The fact that Morgan covered a big zone well would have helped his numbers, I suppose, but it in no way suggests that a player who can’t cover that zone wouldn’t be a downgrade.
I'm just
saying that Morgan’s UZR isn’t as far and away better than a someone else because he was given extra opportunities to extend his range. I wasn’t saying there wasn’t going to be a downgrade either so I would appreciate it if you would get off my case for making a simple statement
My projected lineup for tonight
Cutch CF
Sanchez 2B
Andy 3B
Adam 1B
Moss LF
Pearce RF
JJ C
Jack SS
Ohlie P
Remember...
a lefty is pitching…that’s why I don’t have Jones in RF. Although you could put Young in RF…bat him 2nd then flop the LaRoche brothers.
No, Dude
Andy LaRoche is not a good 3. Adam LaRoche is not a good 4. Brandon Moss is a comical 5. Pearce, on his best day, is an OK 6. JJ and Jack are slotted OK.*
I know this isn’t all due to Morgan leaving, obviously. It’s just an ugly lineup to be confronted with. Doumit will help, but geez.
- I know that order doesn’t mean much; it’s just as an indicator of the talent available.
Which is why....
continuing to acquire talent with upside for marginal players is an excellent idea.
The opponents of this are just going to reply that Milledge has lost every square inch of his gigantic upside because of 1 bad playing month and 2 injured months…
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Milledge has been a problem longer than that
Speaking as a native-born Mets fan, I assure you that Milledge’s value did not start dropping on April 1, 2009.
He could still turn around, no doubt. But he’s a bigger flyer than Tabata, with less time to get right
He was still hyped at the beginning of the year as a potential impact player. I get that his value is down significantly from a potential top 5 draft pick, but it has not been destroyed. Either he pans out big, or we gave up marginal talent like Burnett and Morgan for nothing, which isn’t the death of the franchise.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair Nuff
Look, if I could convince myself not to care or pay attention until 2011, I’d love these trades. But as someone who will, inevitably, listen to every game on the radio and attend another half dozen games, this makes me crazy.
Best upside to MIlledge is that, if he works out, he’s insurance against needing both Hernandez and Tabata to hit for 2011/2012 to matter.
I like Andy's bat but...
Won’t it be fun when we have the power bats up here and he can be dropped in the order?
Could we just trade one of the LaRoches
So we can stop with the confusion? I’m sick of having to write “An LaRoche” and “Ad LaRoche” in my scorecard. It’s ridiculous.
Andy's 25, ......
he has shown power in the minors. I think he could be very productive in the 3 or 5 hole in a year or two. But, if we have studs and he bats sixth, I’m good with that.
Pirates’ lineup:
1. McCutchen, CF
2. Sanchez, 2B
3. Young, RF
4. Adam LaRoche, 1B
5. Andy LaRoche, 3B
6. Moss, LF
7. Diaz, C
8. Wilson, SS
9. Ohlendorf, P
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 30, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Are the Pirates going to wait and let Milledge rehab for a few games with Indy before calling him up?
I can only assume so
I don’t think you take a guy with a hand injury straight from Florida to starting in the bigs. Or even starting in Pittsburgh (sorry, that’s too nasty).
Milledge Time
I am happy to see the Pirates get a legit young player with a full set of tools and only have to trade Morgan and Burnett to do it. Nice move, I think. Hanrahan I am not so sure about. I haven’t seen him throw and his MiLB stats are underwhelming.
by wietersforpresident on Jun 30, 2009 3:08 PM EDT reply actions
Lineup a week from now (assuming no more trades):
1. Cutch-CF
2. Sanchez-2B
3. Milledge-LF
4. Ad. LaRoche-1B
5. An. LaRoche-3B
6. Moss-RF
7. JJ-C
8. Wilson-SS
9. Pitcher
You could flip-flop Sanchez and Milledge. Whatever you wanna do.
No chance...
Milledge comes up and hits third. Bat him seventh and let him get his feet wet. And he probably spends some time in Indy before coming up.
You think the Bucs will play Moss? :)
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Nickname Time
“Lastings” and “Milledge” both suck to say. Nicknames anyone?
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
Over on Federal Baseball, we had several names for Milledge...
…some of the printable ones were “Lasto,” “LMilz” and “Dammit!” (This last after yet another baserunning error or “creative” route to a fly ball…)
"NatsTown™, Village of the Damned" --MissB
Now let's trade Freddy.....
And get Delwyn in there at 2nd. No way do I want to pay Freddy $8.4 next year.
I agree
That 8.4 is going to be a hefty price to pay
That would be great IF Delwyn could actually play 2B...
Delwyn is a backup 2B at very best. Trading Jack or Freddy right now tanks the team because there isn’t a player anywhere close to replacing them. Friday and Negrych are still fumbling through AA. Trading Freddy would have to bring a player who is blocked at 2B from another team.
I don't see this team going anywhere
Dangle Freddy and if the deal is good make it. Let DY chop it up out there and see if he can get comfortable and at least be serviceable
Tank the team right now?.....
as opposed to? We are in rebuilding mode. Who cares about right now. This is how you get better. Trades like this one for Milledge and Hannrahan
Agreed
Which is why Capps and Duke belong on the table. Frankly, I don’t really see why you keep Doumit. None of those guys are Pirates in 2012.
I'm onboard with trading them
But only if we can get some players other than outfielders
or how about "middle infielders" ?
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 30, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I should’ve emphasized middle infielders, too. When (or if) Jack Wilson gets traded, an adequate SS is definitely going to be a need for the Bucs. That’s why I emphasized that word. After Jack (and Freddy, for that matter), there is nothing! Surely, NH will be asking for middle infield prospects in his next couple of trades.
Dejan twittering...
deal is done.
Jesse Chavez is playing solitaire.
And now burns an extra candle for his pal Sean.
by RDV across the sea on Jun 30, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought LEFTIES were rare and valueable, especially at trade deadline
I think closer to the july 31st deadline, Burnett could have gotten more from teams in the playoff hunt, A LEFT HANDED RELIEVER with respectable ERA on a bad team.
Mario Lopez
maybe
Burnett’s value is at an all-time high
and it’s safe to assume that he’ll regress at some point. probably soon
and he can’t get right handed hitters out.
so why not get rid of him while he has some value (even though it ain’t much)?
Some people are never happy, dirty..........
Before today, who ever would have thought Burnett would get us anything? And also, I believe southernBURGH stated previously, after the Nate trade, that he wasn’t going to set foot in PNC until Nutting sells the team. Now he cares about the return on Burnett? HAHA!
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 30, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
You are kidding, right?
Man, does our fanbase overvalue our own players or what? Burnett barely made the team and has had three pretty good months. His career numbers are below average. We just got more than we gave up by far in my opinion. We weren’t getting anything of more value for either of these guys.
Just to nitpick
Burnett barely made the team
You see phrases like this thrown around a lot. But it’s utterly meaningless. Chavez only made the team because Meek was hurt, yet he’s plainly been good enough. Monroe made the team easily, yet he’s gone (and rightly so). Just as Spring Training stats are meaningless, how easily someone makes the team out of Spring Training is meaningless for all purposes except to the guy who didn’t make it.
I’m not making any claim at all about Burnett here; I’m just pointing out what I think is a silly bit of rhetoric (widely used – not trying to pick on dtoddwin).
true
and he probably only made it because he was out of options
And I'm just .......
curious why everybody is so worked up, all of sudden, about getting rid of two serviceable, but marginal, no-upside players.
Speaking for myself
I liked Morgan last year, and thought that this community, including Charlie, were significantly underrating him (largely due to a Moneyball-influenced distaste for his skillset). And, indeed, he has proven to be much better than predicted, especially in the field. His fielding has contributed greatly to this team going from 880 runs allowed last season to a projected ~715 this season. His offense has been serviceable (FanGraphs actually gives him a better wRAA than Moss, BTW), and of course he’s likable, fun to watch, etc.
That said, I think “so worked up” is an overstatement. We’re all here because we care about baseball and the Pirates. This is (fairly) big news, moving a starter and a pitcher we’ve been following for, what, 4 years?
But it’s not as if people are freaking out about Monroe or Hinske.
My wife and I both liked Nyjer’s personality for awhile ( I honestly believe she was the first Nyjer fan with the exception of his family, since 07) but for you to say you were on here advocating that Nyjer would be a successful starting LF or even undervalued is hard for me to believe. I don’t think I read a single comment, with the exception of maybe one by Dave Littlefield, saying Nyjer would help this team win prior to this year.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 30, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont like this
LM is a head case and playing on a bad team, while nothing new to him, wont help make him reach his potential. Whats he making? Decent coin I would think. Morgan, while older, was a good guy, solid effort and great to play LF at PNC. I think NH will look back at this one and feel sick some day. The pticher swap is decent, Joel could be our closer, or we could hsip him or Capps to Tampa for a good bat maybe.
I'm pretty sure....
there is NO scenario that NH will look back and feel sick about this deal. Where do you think Morgan and Burnett are going career-wise from here?
not due to Morgan and Burnett
I think Millage is a head case and could become a clubhouse cancer. We gain a little more power from a guy a few years younger, thats cool, but I am not sold Lastings is a team player.
I think it could be an advantage if he grows with our young players
When he came up with the Mets he was surrounded by veterans that easily could get annoyed by his energy/immaturity. I think that with all the young guys and the relaxed clubhouse the Bucs appear to have may be to his benefit.
We are not a bad team
There is below average (which we are) and bad (which is what the Nats are). Burnett was needed to balance the upside of Milege. No way we do a Morgan for Millege straight up. Hanrahan gives us a closing options should we be able to deal Capps.
This is not a bad trade. This trade favors the PBC. Burnett and Morgan were overachieving big time. NH keeps pounding the M.O. – sell at peak for highest return. I love it!
Right you are, sir!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 30, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
If the Nats are having a fire sale on bad attitude guys, how about we ask for malcontent Elijah Dukes for great clubhouse guy Brandon Moss? ;) Then again maybe Dukes problems are only off the field.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
Morgan, Burnett
Let’s be honest. If the Pirates had placed Morgan on waivers in spring training, few fans would have cared. LM is more talented and has much more upside. I’d compare it to getting LaRoche last year. Both were gambles. Both were top prospects obtained cheaply. If they don’t work out, it doesn’t matter. Morgan wasn’t that good. As for Burnett, you can find mediocre left-handed relievers. Maybe that’s why DL drafted Moskos. Agreed. Hanrahan has been awful this year, but he was tough last year. He throws hard. He’ll have much better defense with the Pirates. I suspect he’ll become a reliable 8th inning option.
Uh...
Both were top prospects obtained cheaply.
Andy LaRoche is the only tangible return* for Jason Bay, now the best player on the best team in the AL. I wouldn’t call that “cheap.”
- Moss == Replacement Player, Hansen was never much more than a body in the bullpen, and Lyons remains a crapshoot. Big upside, but there are an awful lot of AA pitchers with upsides who never make it.
By.....
Lyons you mean Morris and he was the second most important guy in the deal.
Moss=replacement player=Morgan. Who would you rather have Moss or Morgan? I know the team would not have done the deal with Moss in there (although the Nats inquired and wanted Morgan so they probably wouldn’t have either).
The best defensive player in baseball
Does not equal a replacement player.
The utter refusal to recognize Morgan’s value is breathtaking. Moss’s O (measured by wRAA) is worse than Morgan’s. Moss’s D is significantly worse than Morgan’s. But, because you don’t like leadoff-type players, you want to equate them. Ridiculous.
Sorry, don’t know where Lyons came from (I’ve been up since 4). I know he was important. He remains an oft-injured AA pitcher. That’s why I referred to LaRoche as “tangible.” Morris is nothing more than a bet – a high upside bet, but a bet.
Also, the team wouldn’t have dealt Moss partly because he’s younger with (say it with me) “upside,” but also because he’s a big part of the Bay trade; if Moss washes out, the Bay trade looks shitty unless Morris becomes a #2 pitcher. And don’t try to tell me that NH is above such considerations. Tell it to Torres, Bautista, Snell, et al.
He’s only the best D player by some metrics because he is playing left field. If he were in center where a player like him should be, he would probably be inferior to other no-power, Juan Pierre/Willy Taveras types.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
And.....
He’s freaking 29! He has no power. I’m not saying he sucks. I’m saying we are giving up very little and taking a shot, a bet, whatever you want to call it. Yes, this team needs to take chances. Buy low, sell high.
That's third most breathtaking
People don’t realize the enormous gulf that lies between 24 and 29 years of age for a baseball player.
He's 29
Most players reach their peak at about 27. Nyjer is never gonna be better than he is right now. He’s on his way down, not on his way up.
The only real question is: Will Milledge ever get any better? Some young players do. Many don’t.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I like this deal. Hanrahan has had a rough year, but the Nats’ D is horrendous and he’s consistently put up decent K and K:BB numbers (even in PCL). It cracks me up that in a bullpen loaded with Bucs castoffs like Vilone, Beimel, Wells & Tavares (now add Burnett), Hanrahan is the one the Nats think is the problem.
Milledge is such a no brainer here it’s laughable. Let’s not get too spoiled by some of our overachieving young sports stars in Pgh — Milledge is 24 and has room to grow and mature on and off the field. His biggest crime — being a 2x repeat offender at showing late for meetings. BFD. I’m sure we’ll all be just fine with his cockiness if he produces.
This is an easy win
In his best season in the majors (this one), Nyjer is OPSing .707. Last season, his only full one in the majors, Lastings was at .730. Consider the four year age difference and the fact the Nationals would have hung up the phone laughing if this deal were proposed in March, and this is a great pick-up.
http://www.rakesofmallow.com
JRoth
Good thing we don’t need Milledge to field, then.
Seriously, we’re supposed to be excited about .027 of OPS from a guy whose fielding will mostly look good compared to Delwyn Young?
I know, I know. “Upside.” They should put it on banners outside PNC Park.
CW
Lastings got a raw deal down in DC this year, as he was chosen as the scapegoat for the poor start, got demoted and got hurt. I don’t get too worried about him supposedly being a headcase, as headcases that produce are just charming and quirky.
As mak_DC points out below, he’s not that bad. This is a perfect example of selling super high and buying extremely low.
http://www.rakesofmallow.com
by CW on Jun 30, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have no problem
with you disagreeing with the deal, but you’re kind of being a meanie. Stop talking down to people so much.
If you like Nyjer so much.....
Maybe you should concentrate you’re efforts on making a fan page for him or maybe jump over to the Nats’ blog to sing his praises……
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 30, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
your not you’re
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 30, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Jack
is digging his own grave in Pittsburgh
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Although I don’t agree with Jack, the way he feels is totally understandable. Jack Wilson, although it’s more than likely not going to happen, wants to be part of a winner here in Pittsburgh. I’m sure he feels like everytime the team is close to turning it around with the players they have, management makes a trade to bring in younger guys who are two or three years away from helping the team (although there are a few major league ready players in return). It’s got to be frustrating for him because he feels like management doesn’t really care what the veterans of the team think or want, and honestly, management doesn’t care. But I think he understands that his days in Pittsburgh are numbered and he wants to win with the guys that are there before he leaves town. The sad thing is that we can’t win with the players that are already there. NH is doing the right thing and making the right moves, but Jack’s frustration and questioning of the trades is understandable.
Close to turning
it around? Then Jack is delusional. Seriously, if he is such a leader, there is no room for this kind of b.s. And you’re right, management shouldn’t care what the vets think. If they would win, they wouldn’t have to worry about guys being traded for prospects.
Delusional?
Last year’s offense plus this year’s pitching = a 90 win team (RA/RS; you could look it up).
Now, of course, you can’t just do that. But this year’s pitching improvements came entirely from the Nady deal and Kerrigan. If NH had traded just Nady, and found a decent FA for 3B (e.g. Crede or Hairston), this year’s offense would be approaching, if not equalling, last year’s, while the pitching/D would be 10-20+% better in terms of runs allowed. And yes, this team would be contending, with Jack and Freddy and JBay.
But NH wanted to blow it up, and he wants a winner for which he gets 100% credit. And so Jack will never get to play for a winner, and neither will the 80% of the guys that Jack was talking about (true, if everything goes right, a couple guys might be around for the 2011 82-80 team),
Applaud it if you want, but don’t call anyone else delusional.
You can’t just take last year’s RS and this year’s RA and say there’s a 90-win team there. Bay and Nady were a big part of last year’s RS, but replacing them was a big reason the Pirates’ RA has improved this year.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 30, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I did say that
My point is that the primary problem with last year’s team was runs allowed and, despite the clear defensive improvement, most of that is replacing Morris/Gorzo/Herrera/Taubenheim/JVB/etc. with Ohlendorf and Karstens. Furthermore, if you put Bay in right and Morgan in left, that’s a clear defensive upgrade in the OF from 2008.
Most importantly, RS this year isn’t lagging that far behind last year’s, It’s the drop in RA from ~880 to ~730 that makes the difference. And, as I say, you simply can’t pin that much of it on Moss vs. Bay (more to the point, Bay’s increase in RS far outstrips Moss’ better RA).
If he wanted to play for a contender
he should tone down the comments and try to be around for the 2011 team…I doubt that is happening now
Character May Not Matter For Winning
But if you’re a player, it might help you get some pity points when you’re aging but you still wanna stick around for one more year.
Teams are sometimes happy to keep a nice guy around for a little too long, and even make him a coach after he retires. Jerks? Not so much.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Milledge in the field
WAAAY too much is being made of Milledge’s outfield play. Yes, he was sub-par as a center fielder last year, but he’s never going to play CF for the Bucs. Barry Bonds was an average CF that turned into a gold glove (deservedly) LF. I’m not saying Milledge is going to win GGs, I’m just saying that writing off this trade on the basis of defense is nothing more than pure folly.
wont be to long till we see nyjer again we play the nats on friday…it seems all our trades go to teams we play in the next few days lol.
by Cutch is the chosen one! on Jun 30, 2009 4:50 PM EDT reply actions
As a fan who’s grown bored of losing, I’m excited to see NH lead the league in trades this summer.
by Chad Bahamas on Jun 30, 2009 4:54 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Both deals make sense
Both these trades make sense and I like what the GM is doing.
Keep trading players at their peak for players with more talent. Now if we could just sign the players we drafted and a few Latin American talents this ship may turn around.
Jack needs to look in the mirror
“The bottom line is, even if this trade does work out, it’s not going to matter to 80 percent of the people in here,” Wilson said. “And over the years, these trades haven’t worked. Show me the ones that have worked.” – Jack Wilson
Couldn’t you make an argument that Jason Christenson for Jack Wilson was EXACTLY this kind of trade? That worked out pretty well for the Pirates.
Jack
did he just diss Moss and Luigi?
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
All terrible trades…We should have kept all his friends so there would be no heartache…oh and they’d still be terrible
And he wouldn't be here
I think that’s what disappointing him.
He almost wasn’t here.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Tell Jack Wilson to shut up
If Jack Wilson is serious about being traded to a contender, tell him to sign a team friendly extension and stop popping off at the mouth. If he was seen by other teams as more than a rent a player or an overpaid defensive specialist he would have been gone a long time ago.
Two more trades....
…two more wins for Neal/Frank and company.
They keep this up and the front office will have more wins than the team on the field. lol
I liked Nyjer, but Lastings Milledge’s is a much more valuable player and getting Hanrahan for Burnett…that’s a bonus.
Who would have that that all of Indy’s OF (Jones, Cutch and Salazar) would wind up in the Burgh at the same time?
I have seen Milledge play and he has very good skills…including 25+ HR power.
Brandon Moss better make the most of this opportunity, because there suddenly are a lot of guys vying for OF spots and he needs to prove he deserves a starting job. Cutch is a lock and personally I think Milledge (once he gets healthy) and Young are better. Plus, both Jones and Salazar can probably give Moss a run for his money. I left out Steve Pearce, but I think Pirates management has already written him off anyway.
I Love That Move
Milledge hasn’t really played like a major leaguer yet, so make him earn it. Maybe it will make a difference.
If you’ve read any of my comments on the matter, you know I don’t think that Milledge is any good. But if he’s going to improve, this is a good first step.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Brakeman:
I owe you a bit of an apology from a previous gamethread.
If you’d like to give me your email addy, I can explain further.
If not, I understand.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 30, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Charlie, you must be loving this.
Your blog has exploded with quality new posters over the last month or so due to the Pirates activity in the trade market. Everybody has their own opinion, but it’s almost always respectful, and to whatever point that person is trying make.
It’s a great reflection on the hard work you’ve put in and the help you’ve had from people like Vlad and WTM.
Dejan for news, Charlie for opinion…. it’s a Buccoweb thing.
Moneygram is an easy way to forward cash from country to country around the world, especially from California to the UK. ;-)
by RDV across the sea on Jun 30, 2009 5:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hanrahan > Burnett
In this year, his best in the majors, Sean Burnett has a FIP of 4.50, and it’s 4.98 for his career. His 3.06 ERA so far is due to luck, good defense, and tiny sample size. For those same reasons that Burnett looks much better than he is, Hanrahan looks much worse than he is. Despite his awful ERA, Hanrahan has a FIP this year of 3.56, and 4.47 for his career. The reliever swap is a clear win for the Bucs in a buy low sell high way.
As for NyMo, all of his value is tied up in his defense, but I wonder if some of the metrics (cough UZR cough) are overestimating his defense because of noise in small sample size. He’s probably not “best outfielder in the league” type good out there in left. I’m guessing NH knew that, although a good fielder, NyMo was likely to regress defensively. He’s about to turn 29, so even if he really is that good defensively, he wouldn’t seem to fit well with the future plans. I think I like this move.
Here's the PG blog link...
where Jack and Adam express their frustrations.
Huntington, on the players’ reaction: “The reality is, anytime you take away one of their friends, you take two or three away in a short period of time, it’s unsettling. The human element of the game is something we can’t ignore. But our goal is to put an excellent team on the field and not just a bunch of nice guys out there. We hope to put talented people that are very good people, as well. Every move we make is to try to get this team back on a winning track.”
Amen, Neil. Amen.
Let's see how...
Ian feels about pitching for the hitless wonders (Indy) his next start.
Andrew McCutchen, Morgan’s longtime friend: “Yeah, man, you almost want to cry. This [stinks], man. You know, it’s a business. It’s a a great loss to lose someone like this. Not just on the field, but off the field as well. It’s great to have someone like that beside you. There’s nobody who can replace what he can do off the field.”
That sucks.
RIP NATE. RIP TONY PLUSH
There’s nobody who can replace what he can do off the field
On the field… totally different story.
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
hey, the PBC might
if all those players could go and sell tickets galore.
True Blue Jazz
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Would you guys have rather him said nothing?
It doesn’t sound like Cutch is breaking out the pitchforks and torches like Jack. He is just expressing his feelings over not getting to play ball with his friend. Should he have said “screw Nyjer, I didn’t think he was that good anyway”?
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jul 1, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
No.
Nothing wrong with what he said.
I just think it’s weird that he’d mention off-field and not on-field stuff.
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
I felt a little bad for Burnett too
when he said it brought tears to his eyes when he heard the news. I have been a huge Burnett fan ever since he broke through and I was extremely happy for him making it back after multiple surgeries. I am happy this trade was made because this is the type of thing we need to get to contender level.
Best of luck to Burnett and Morgan (just not against us)
thank you all...
I can’t take PBC Blog or Pirates.com anymore.
I'm getting hard on myself, sitting in my easy chair.
Yep.
I can’t stand the PBC comments (I still read Dejan’s posts daily).
And the posts at MLBTR were equally annoying.
“They don’t care about the fans…”
—No duh. The point is to win.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Charlie
The Hinske trade didn’t wow me
Can you elaborate on this? Or anyone with criticism really. It seems that the Hinske deal was exactly the sort of deal the Pirates should be making or would you have simply trade for different prospects?
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jun 30, 2009 5:30 PM EDT reply actions
Heh, how much can you expect to get for a fat, underperforming bench player with all of one home run and bad fielding at every position?
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah that was kind of my point. The trade isn’t exactly making me hard but I’m not sure what trade involving Hinske would.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jun 30, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn’t trying to be critical of the deal. I thought it was fine. It just didn’t excite me, that’s all.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 30, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough, thanks for the response.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jul 1, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Milledge
Lastings Milledge is my favorite player since his Mets days, and I thought I’d pass along my comment on Rob Neyer’s coverage of the trade:
“The Milledge character issues are way-overblown, almost entirely fictional in my opinion. I have nothing but fond memories of Lastings’ time in New York. I’m also concerned about his struggles in AAA, but I think being demoted to AAA, on the verge of what looked to be a breakout year, must really hurt your psyche. Also, remember he has been hurt for part of this year.
Lastings will never be a great defensive outfielder, but he’ll be a fine leftfielder in Pittsburgh, with tons of offensive upside. According to hittracker, he hit some absolute bombs last year, and probably got a little unlucky on his homerun totals. His batting average also seemed a little low, when you consider his batted ball profile and speed. He’s still a bit of a hacker, but he has a workable batting eye and incredible bat speed that masks many of his mistakes.
Another stupid move by the Nationals. Neal Huntington’s Moneyball looks to be players who fall out of organizational favor."
If any of you are down on Milledge and want to argue this with me, I welcome it. I love the kid and think he’ll do well in a better situation (much like Andy LaRoche)
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Jun 30, 2009 5:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I decline your invitation
I read this comment at Neyer’s, too, and I still agree with it. Dk’s blog posted a quote from someone who said that Milledge’s character issues had a lot to do with not fitting well or adjusting well into baseball culture. I think a lot of baseball culture is a crock of BS. It’s one thing if a guy just can’t relate to people in a positive way, such that it hampers his ability to do his job (COUGHsnellCOUGH). But so far, Lastings has failed to “act like a major leaguer” in New York, rapped, been late to a couple of meetings in WSH, and neglected to put his pants on one leg at a time like everybody else. I’m not real worried about this.
I don’t want to divorce the emotion from this completely: I enjoyed having Nyjer Morgan play for the Pirates this year, and in a small way I feel cheated that we didn’t get more of him. But as soon as he loses even a step of speed, all of his value will be gone. He turns 29 this week. He’s going to lose that speed soon and be done. Without going to B-R and checking comps, see. e.g., Bobby Dernier, Gary Pettis.
I say get the hell out of Milledge’s way and let him play ball. Acting like a major leaguer, to me, is putting up numbers. This isn’t a convent, and he’s not a criminal.
The Hinske trade...
was just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. It doesn’t accomplish anything. Hinske wasn’t providing any significant contribution to the team…and the Class A “prospects” are a long time from contributing…and may never contribute. They definitely weren’t in the Yankees top prospects lists.
If this trade were reversed...
…we would screaming our heads off. Sorry I am late to the game here, but I am thrilled with the Milledge deal. If the shoe were turned and we were giving up on a promising prospect for guys like Morgan and Burnett, there would be a riot.
I cannot for the life of me figure out what the Nationals are doing here.
From the Nats' perspective...
…is Morgan even an improvement over Willie Harris? That’s questionable.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 5:49 PM EDT reply actions
From twitter
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/2408734876
my reax to milledge-morgan trade: nats finally have an OF who can catch
I guess you have to start somewhere.
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
I'm sure...
he’ll have PLENTY to say when he gets back.
I think this is NH's way
to shake up JR. JR was never going to take NyMo out of the second spot in the batting order. or give Moss a chance to show he could make it in LF. JR’s comment earlier this week that he picked his starting RF by picking names out of a hat (ha ha ha!), actually mirrored a knock on him in this blog.
I can’t say much here — I advocated trading NyMo and Chris Duffy last August for a couple bags of (scuffed) baseballs. NH did better than that. Every AB NyMo (and Hinske) got was one less AB to tell whether Moss, Young, Pearce have a future with the PBC. Time to get on with it.
Nyjer “1-3-6 pickoff” Morgan is certainly a great guy on the field. But other than his first 2 weeks (10 games) in April, offensively 2009 has been nothing to write home about for him. Nor for Hinske.
The biggest plus for me out of these trades is that JR will have to play his left fielder in left field, instead of making him a center field annex. That might actually help the defense, even if the new LF lacks Morgan’s speed.
Frankly...
I wouldn’t be surprised if Moss moving from RF to LF is permanent.
Can't stand the non-Charlie blogs
Too much of:
1. PBC could have had a Bay, McLouth & McCutchen starting OF and that’d be the best in the MLB; or
2. Next on the block will be trading Cutch for prospects, as a salary dump, because that’s all the PBC does.
I know it's awful.
I tried to read about the trade on some major websites but the comments there are all by idiots. Thank god I found this website.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 30, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Uhh....
Is there supposed to be something wrong with Jason Bay?
The guy is projecting as the #3 OPS LF in baseball this year (he’d also be #3 in RF).
Meanwhile, Cutch is on track for a well-deserved ROY (I know it’s early, but…). Granted that Nate was nothing spectacular, but I love the suggestion that it’s self-evidently stupid to state that combining early the best offensive LF[RF] in the game with a superb young CF and an above-average LF would result in a top offensive OF.
Why? Because someone on a different blog said it. Ha ha! Stupid other-blog-commenter.
There was something wrong with bay
downright awful defensively and he would have been gone after this year. So we keep him for one year where we could possibly get 80 wins, 90 if we are lucky but sacrifice getting anything for him? Doesn’t make sense
Nats fan here
wasn’t a fan of the trade today. it bugs me that they made a trade to improve the Nats this year in exchange for potential down the road. Milledge clearly has talent, evidenced by what he did last year as a 23-year old in the bigs. he has to play left field though to be even passable on defense, and since the Nats ahve two of those (Dunn, Willingham), and Milledge has been resistant to changing his approach in the past, he was shown the door.
this is the second organization he’s been shipped out of. interesting to see if he develops in Steel City.
oh, and Hanrahan throws gas. if he ever learns to trust his fastball, he’ll be right back to what he did last season. maybe now that he’s got guys behind him that can catch…
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jun 30, 2009 6:41 PM EDT reply actions
Been reading a bit about that
Heyman joking about it and all.
Is the OF there really that bad?
True Blue Jazz
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
believe it
Dunn has 8 errors this season already. you can look up the UZR/150s for them. Willie Harris has been starting in center. that alone should tell you how bad it’s been.
also, the MI defense is pretty terrible too. Guzman can’t get anything to his right. he basically has a range of about four feet.
Morgan is a spare part in the grand scheme, but he’ll be leading off and playing center field for the Nats. and they’ll tout him as a star.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jun 30, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Ladies and Gentlemen
Presenting your 2009 Washington Nationals!! And the star of the team, Nyjer Morgan!
Morgan might not look at it this way right now...
…but he’ll likely have a longer career in Washington than he’ have had in Pittsburgh. The Caps, it seems, really need someone like him whereas he’s just a placeholder on the Pirates.
The difference for Morgan: Millions in salary for a career that should not last all that long.
Steve Z
Congrats, Pirates fans.
This trade was a steal for you guys.
---
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com
thanks
glad to hear it. i’m a big fan of your blog btw.
I need some explanation on Hanrahan's BABIP
He also has an incredible .451 batting average on balls in play this year, which basically means you can dismiss that high ERA, because luck and/or the Nats’ defense has simply killed him
Yeah I don’t think so. WAS is probably not an ideal place for any pitcher but his AVG is .352. He’s getting killed, Duke-style, but worse.
I think there may be something in there with Hanrahan, but just sweeping aside his ERA because of a high BABIP in 33 IP is kind of silly. He’s not gettng people out.
Hanrahan’s line drive percentage is about 25 this year. There are 6 players with LD%s higher than that in 30 IP. Their BABIPS are .303, .387, .329, .441, .378, .363. Hanrahan’s .451 is the worst for anybody with more than 30 IP.
Hanrahan’s problem is way more than just being hit hard. Haven’t you been paying attention to how atrocious Washington’s defense is, especially in the outfield? Why do you think all those line drives are dropping in?
Speaking of geniuses on other boards
Look at this great debate I was having over on Sportsline. the fans there are just brilliant.
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/messages/chrono/15820435
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 30, 2009 8:52 PM EDT reply actions
Lol
But it gets better. Then they trade one of their most exciting players, Morgan, for Lastings Milledge. He made an impact as a rookie, but has rolled off the table since then. He’s a head case. A troublemaker. And he’s been injury prone.
Oh man, we just traded an exciting player. We’re gonna suck now.
And I love the argument about the Hinske trade. Who in their right mind would give up a “good” prospect for him? He’s hit 1 HR this season, and isn’t very good in the field.
That’s why I avoid boards like that. It makes me wanna… punch something hard.
True Blue Jazz
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I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Cmon
I love these people who say garbage like “Morgan has reached his ceiling” or “Milledge will never been a good player” Really? What makes you so sure? Don’t state your opinion as a matter of proven fact. For instance, I happen to disagree with this bloggers assessment that Sean Burnett is not good. This year, he has been dominating lefties and overall solid even against righties. Had he stated his opinion as an opinion, I would have respected it. He stated it as a fact as if it is widely known that Burnett is garbage, which he’s not, and which the stats clearly disprove. Write the facts.
Stats are on thing
but stats also lie a lot. Such as a batter with an above aveage BABIP. His stats are going to lie about how good he actually is. and Sean Burnett’s stats show that he is good but look closer and you see that he has gotten lucky. He gives up too many HRs and doesn’t strike out enough batters. He is purely a lefty specialist with the potential to be a 7th or 8th inning guy. That’s it
If You Think That Milledge Will Be A Good Player
Then you should be able to find a good player who was similar to Lastings Milledge at a similar age.
I would be happy to find one, if I could. But I haven’t seen one yet. So it looks to me like there’s a strong chance that Lastings Milledge isn’t gonna be very good.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 1, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Haven't read any of the comments yet
but I just wanted to add that I love the deal as well. I liked it Morgan for Milledge, and I love it with Hanrahan. I hope we give him another shot at starting at some point, too.
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