Is Jack Wilson Paying Attention?
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 5:31 PM EDT
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PrintJack Wilson on the Tony Plush trade.
"The bottom line is, even if this trade does work out, it's not going to matter to 80 percent of the people in here," Wilson said. "And over the years, these trades haven't worked. Show me the ones that have worked."
I guess Jack doesn't care that the players acquired in these trades are most of his teammates in the starting lineup.
Adam LaRoche
January 19, 2007: Traded by the Atlanta Braves with Jamie Romak (minors) to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Mike Gonzalez and Brent Lillibridge.
Freddy Sanchez
July 31, 2003: Traded by the Boston Red Sox with Mike Gonzalez and cash to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Brandon Lyon, Anastacio Martinez and Jeff Suppan.
Andy LaRoche and Brandon Moss
July 31, 2008: 3-team trade. Andy Laroche was traded by the Los Angeles Dodgers with Bryan Morris (minors) to the Pittsburgh Pirates. The Boston Red Sox sent Manny Ramirez to the Los Angeles Dodgers. The Boston Red Sox sent Craig Hansen and Brandon Moss to the Pittsburgh Pirates. The Pittsburgh Pirates sent Jason Bay to the Boston Red Sox.
Jason Jaramillo
December 10, 2008: Traded by the Philadelphia Phillies to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Ronny Paulino
Delwyn Young
April 15, 2009: Traded by the Los Angeles Dodgers to the Pittsburgh Pirates for two Players To Be Named Later
Lastings Milledge
June 30, 2009: Traded by the Washington Nationals with Joel Hanrahan to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Nyjer Morgan and Sean Burnett. (Milledge isn't a starter now, but he probably will be soon.)
Andrew McCutchen is the only starter who wasn't acquired via trade. So isn't Jack Wilson basically saying that most of his teammates are losers? And if Jack Wilson thinks that it sucks when the Pirates bring a young player in a trade, remember:
Jack Wilson
July 29, 2000: Traded by the St. Louis Cardinals to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Jason Christiansen.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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I can't wait....
to see how Dejan spins this. He was critical, without expressing and opinion, of course, of the McLouth trade. He also said if the Pirates traded Wilson, “the face of the franchise, the fans would boycott PNC Park.” Well attendance has been great lately and the fans over at PBC Blog and here are ripping Wilson for his comments.
Jack is entitled to his opinion and I guess it is newsworthy, although I couldn’t care less about what he thinks. And I think it is incredibly unprofessional.
Exactly
What the guy thinks about the quality of trades is as relevant as what any of us thinks, since he has as much authority in the matter as we do. But if he’s gonna go around saying that the trades suck, he’s just ripping on his own teammates. What a jerk.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
So let me get this straight...
Jack would rather play with friends and lose than have a shot (albeit small) of winning?
I thought that’s what little league was for.
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I Think It's Even Worse Than That
I think he’s just rather bitch about how everybody on the team sucks except for him.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll take a team that beats the hell out of one another
and wins, then a team that is in last place and moans when their average talented friends get traded.
I don't mean to defend his comments,
I think he’s being a bit of jerk, too. But he doesn’t really have a shot at winning. I don’t mean to analyze and hate to assume, but he’s probably most upset because he knows he they don’t see him as part of the next winner.
Jaramillo was acquired by trading Ronny Paulino, so Cutch is the only starter to begin in the Pirates system.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 30, 2009 5:53 PM EDT reply actions
I Forgot!
Thanks. I’ll fix the post.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s completely understandable that Jack is upset. McLouth was a major contributor and Morgan contributed some but at least hasn’t received all the negative publicity Milledge has which I’m sure Jack has heard.
I’m glad Jack wants to win and isn’t happy that talented players are leaving but do think it is highly inappropriate for him to comment publicly like this.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jun 30, 2009 6:03 PM EDT reply actions
exactly
it’s a human emotion to be sad to see friends go. If anyone had a right to complain about all the trades that have happened, it’d be Jack, and I still don’t read what he said as being bad at all. I would much rather hear what Jack truely feels, than for him to be a robot and say the same old cliches.
It’s the same thing with Big Ben, he tells the media that he was hurt in a game that he didn’t great in, and all the yinzer fans line up to call in to talk shows to say Ben’s a drama queen/baby/whiner.
Jack is a professional in every way
Being Sad Is Fine
Being upset to see a friend leave is completely understandable. But that’s not what Jack said. Jack complained that none of the trades ever work out, which means that everybody on the team now sucks. That’s not being sad, that’s being an asshole.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s being frustrated with having been on a losing team for years despite making a multitude of trades to supposedly improve the team and eventually create a contender. Despite the talented players brought in (which you mention) the team’s performance has not improved and Jack has seen that over his many years in Pittsburgh.
He’s obviously not seeing the same big picture as NH and is just seeing the trades as taking away talented players and leaving the team in worse shape for the rest of the season. I wouldn’t say it is Jack being an asshole, it’s his frustration.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jun 30, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I think....
it is indefensible. Also, the equating the current management team, or effectively blaming them for past actions, is wrong, insulting and unprofessional.
Yeah I agree and I don’t think he should have made these comments but to him I’m sure that it doesn’t seem that there is any difference in management as the same type of players are leaving the Pirates. He isn’t seeing that these guys coming back are talented and well-regarded prospects.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jun 30, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
80% Of The People In Here
What do you think he means by “80% of the people in here?” Andy Laroche is young. Cutch is young. Jaramillo is young. Milledge is young.
I think what Jack means by “80% of the people in here” is “100% of Jack Wilson.” It really just sounds to me like he’s a self-centered jerk.
He didn’t say he’s sad, and he didn’t say he’s frustrated. He said that everybody on his team sucks and there’s no hope for the future because there’s no hope for him.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
80% is obviously an exaggeration and a poor number for Jack to use.
How does this quotation not ooze frustration?:
It’s just hard for guys who have been here and seen these exact same trades happen and seen it absolutely do nothing. I’ve been here nine years. I’ve seen these trades 2 or 3 times a year every year and still haven’t had a winning season. You hope, eventually, some of these trades will work out. It’s just they haven’t yet.
I really don’t see this as Jack being self-centered at all.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jun 30, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
JW on the trades
Oooh! That hurt! Now rub some dirt on it and go get ’em cowboy!
Lino Donoso
It's not like there's a ton of guys on the team...
that have come up through the Pirates system…so I don’t know where Jack is coming from. There are 6 true Pirates on the 25 man roster…Cutch…Pearce…Capps…Duke…Grabow and Maholm.
Jack WIlson Math
If you use Jack Wilson Math, those six players account for 80% of the players in here.
Math is hard!
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Why dont we?
Just keep Jack and Nyjer and Hinske and aquire a bunch of other guys that can’t hit, but are friends and play defense. We can be the happiest team in the majors! And win twelve games.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 30, 2009 8:19 PM EDT reply actions
I can be a friend!
When I played football, track and baseball in high school, I was friends with every guy on every team. When I was a senior, they knew I was a Pirates fan and some of the freshman called me Pops. Can I be a member of that 12-150 Pirates team too?
by IAPiratesFan on Jun 30, 2009 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Me too please!
I’d love to get paid to hang out with friends and strike out a lot.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Yes of course
You both can join as long as you pass the friendship test. And we’re going to change the name to the Pittsburgh Cuddly Wuddly Kittens because Pirates is too intimidating. And at the end of the year everyone gets a gold star for excellent performance!
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 30, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yay! I get to be
a Cuddly Wuddly Putty Tat
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Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
So Your Ready To Loose Again in 2010?
Wilson, is being the leader of this team and calling out ownership! The same thing we wanted a player to do for the last what, 15 years! And if you think Andy Laroche and Brandon Moss are a good enough return for Bay your insane!
So you name the trades that worked what about the ones that didnt!!!
Jason Kendall for Mark Redman and Arthur Rhodes!
Matt Lawton for Jody Gerut! (Who we gave up on, and is now a solid outfielder)
Sean Casey for Brian Rogers panned out well!
Solomon Torres for Marino Salas…
And the BEST TRADE EVER!!!!
Aramis Ramirez and Keny Lofton for Jose Hernandes, Matt Brubeck and Bobby Hill…
Come on now guys, Milledge was a number one prospect 4 years ago! He is never gonna reach his celing. Hanrahan can’t even find the strikezone, although Burnett couldnt either. And if we are doing this already in June wait till July, when you see Grabow, Sanchez, Adam LaRoche and Jack Wilson all get shuttled on away! We “have stock piled talent” that will never maticulate into anything! Bryan Morris has an elbow worse than Bryan Bullington for crying out load! Sure Morgan is not the future but, man when does the future begin? 2011, when we finallt bring up Lincoln, Locke, Tabata, Alvarez and Hernandez? And by that point McCutchen, Pearce, Capps, Doumit and Moss will be traded away anyways.
You really liked the team we had in place?
Morris is pitching fine so far this season. If you want a core of Wilson, Freddy, Doumit, AdLa, and Bay well that team isn’t going to compete either.
You Make Some Good Points
Trading Sean Casey and Aramis Ramirez were really bad moves. But that was the previous management.
And FWIW, Harahan has struck out 35 this year in 32 innings, and is 171/168 for his career — more than one K per inning. That’s pretty good.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
You Are Absolutely Correct
I just had a brain fart. Sorry!
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you for joining BD
just to post that up.
Good to know you’re up on current events, and bringing us “News We Can Use.”
P.S. Personally, I am ready to “loose” in 2010. I can’t speak for any of the others.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 30, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
...
Kendall would not be playing for the team right now.
Nor would Gerut.
Or Casey.
Or Torres.
-What about trading for Jason Bay?
-Or trading for X-Man? (I’ll admit, I hated the deal at the time)
-Or trading Kip Wells for Jesse Chavez?
-Or trading Ronny Paulino for whichever catcher we got for him (JJ or Diaz)?
-Or trading Jose Bautista for the other of those 2 catchers?
There are plenty of trades that worked… and the percentage of good trades has shot up since NH took over.
DL traded for vets for his “drive for .500”. DL just wanted to get there once.
NH is trading for talent, for the “drive to the World Series”. NH wants to go there, and return every year.
Doumit, Capps, Pearce, they could all be trade. Who knows. There probably won’t be a spot for them in 2011 anyways (Tony Sanchez, OF seems well off, pitchers come & go).
You’re acting like 2011 is 2 decades from now. It’s 2 years… ‘Cutch will still have years to go on his clock, no reason to trade him. And when have we stockpiled talent? That’s something NH brought with him. At least give the guy a shot before hating him (DL had years before people got upset… NH has had less than 2 seasons)
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Bucco Ball
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Seriously
“But that was the previous management.”
It’s like these people aren’t even paying attention. ER, wait—-they’re not. They’re just yinzers killing time until Steelers camp starts. I just know these jagoffs better not be in my way when I finally get to buy playoff tickets.
Nady And Bay
Xavier Nady — July 26, 2008: Traded by the Pittsburgh Pirates with Damaso Marte to the New York Yankees for Daniel McCutchen (minors), Jose Tabata (minors), Jeff Karstens and Ross Ohlendorf.
Jason Bay — August 26, 2003: Traded by the San Diego Padres with a player to be named later and Oliver Perez to the Pittsburgh Pirates for a player to be named later and Brian Giles. The San Diego Padres sent Corey Stewart (minors) (October 2, 2003) to the Pittsburgh Pirates to complete the trade.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 30, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
X-Man
we got him for Oliver Perez & Roberto Hernandez
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
And...
Now Oliver Perez is an overpaid starter with the Mets.
Roberto Hernandez is an ex-Major League Player.
Damaso Marte is an overpaid reliever with the Yankees.
Xavier Nady is out for the year with Tommy John surgery.
by IAPiratesFan on Jun 30, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand Jack's frustrated with losing
but I posted this elsewhere and it’s worth saying again: You know what, Jack? It sure would help if YOU hit .340 and YOU hit 35 homers and YOU drove in 135, now, wouldn’t it? Then at least maybe some winner would take you off our hands for more than a bag of baseballs. Instead, I got news for you, pal: A team of Jack Wilsons would suck. So, I’m sorry you’ve played hard for a loser for nine years. I’ve rooted hard for a loser twice that long and I didn’t get paid $3-$4 million a year to put up with it. So shut your piehole and try not to be a douche, which I don’t really think you are.
Now that that is over
tell us how you really feel about Jack.
"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)
I like Jack, actually
Jack hustles, Jack hates to lose. All well and good. All stuff that makes Jack a favorite of fans willing to overlook this: While Jack is a pretty good fielding shortstop, he is a mediocre to subpar offensive shortstop, and I don’t care how much he hustles or how much he hates to lose, if he’s putting up an 80 OPS+, then he has room in his game to improve. Which he isn’t going to do, at his age.
In Jack Wilson's defense...
If all of these enumerated trades “worked” so well, why is the team still hopelessly mediocre?
by Captain Easychord on Jul 1, 2009 10:26 AM EDT reply actions
Volume
I think in most of those trades we traded a guy who wouldn’t be starting now (or wasn’t even starting then) for a guy who is starting now. So maybe the problem is, we haven’t been making enough of those moves.
Neil is definitely loading up the minors with all the talent he can grab. Much like the Jason Christensen for Jack Wilson deal in 2000, the consequences of last week’s deals are not evident this week. We’ll start to know if they were worth it in a few years.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 1, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
But To Answer Your Real Question
A main reason the team is mediocre is until this year, the minors have gotten basically no attention whatsoever, and the big team has been signing players like Derek Bell.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 1, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
LEAVE DEREK BELL ALONE!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 1, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
this bit about the farm system is definitely 100% true...
… but if this is a list of the wonderful bounty of the pirates’ fantastic trading, then it certainly leaves something to be desired… I mean, how many of these guys are starting simply because the pirates don’t have any better options? (which is, in turn, an indictment of the farm system)
and this isn’t even to say that they were all bad trades… some of them I liked a good bit… but when your answer to jack wilson is to say, “yeah… well we got a backup catcher!” or “but what about this pinch hitter over here!?”… well that’s not the most compelling response…
would anyone really miss most of these guys if they were gone tomorrow? nyjer morgan may not be much more than a 4th outfielder with a heavily weighted skillset, but the guys who are still kicking around at pnc park aren’t really much to write home about themselves…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 1, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Look
at who we traded for them!! What do you expect for Jose Bautista, Paulino, Suppan, A PTBNL, and Mike Gonazalez? The second coming of the 1927 Yankees?
If All Of These Trades Are So Tragic
Then how come the team isn’t any worse than it was before them? The team was under .500 with Jason Bay, and now it’s under .500 without Jason Bay.
The current Pirates are putting up essentially the same record as the previous Pirates, but the current Pirates also have something not entirely unlike a minor league system and maybe future. So it’s an improvement.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 1, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
"The team was under .500 with Jason Bay, and now it’s under .500 without Jason Bay."
I think that’s basically Jack Wilson’s point in a nutshell… you can shuffle these deckchairs any way you like, but the moves that the front office has made results in the same end product no matter what… “it hasn’t worked”…
and that isn’t an indictment of the strategy, it’s just an analysis of the results… you say that making a series of trades has “worked” because it has graced us with the excellence of adam laroche and brandon moss? that’s a pretty funny definition of “worked”…
I don’t know what gives you the idea that I think these trades are “tragic”… I specifically like most of them… but just because a trade reflects a philosophy that I like doesn’t mean that it has changed the ultimate results…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 1, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
The trades
under past organizations have not worked out. But you are calling the trades of this organization busts already and it hasn’t even been two years. Having what huntington had to work with, it’s amazing the team is in the same place as last year. Which shows that they have worked and if they continue to work then there will be much better talent coming in
The Ultimate Results
Will be determined in five years or more. There’s no point in arguing about the ultimate results. They haven’t happened yet.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 1, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
"The Ultimate Results will be determined in five years or more."
again, you are saying the same thing as jack wilson…
even if this trade does work out, it’s not going to matter to 80 percent of the people in here"
furthermore, it’s just the two of you talking about the results of this year’s trades… I’m talking about trades over the past 15 years… jack says, “over the years, these trades haven’t worked.” … I say that you can’t argue with that! you, however, seem to think otherwise… (and if you don’t want to talk about trades made by previous GMs, maybe you shouldn’t reference them in your post)…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 1, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
the irony here is...
I made my original comment moderately tongue-in-cheek… but at the same time, it’s entirely true… all of their trading the pirates have done has basically made no difference in the big picture… the team has continued to be bad and hopeless all along… and it’s ok to acknowledge that… it’s not an argument for changing strategy, though (well, not a good one anyway)…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 1, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I went out to the game yesterday. I’m from Indianapolis, and we took a road trip just to go to the game. My friend I went with, a Rays fan, was more observant than I in this regard:
Of all the players that were on the field yesterday, there was only one home-grown talent – Andrew McCutchen. Everyone else (including Jack Wilson as a minor leaguer) was acquired in a trade at one point. If you count Pearce’s pinch hit, it makes for two home-grown talents, but still.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 1, 2009 4:13 PM EDT reply actions
Jack apologizes.
A lot of things I said, I thought about last night when talking with my wife and they were pretty inaccurate I would say. I definitely don’t want to be that guy who is butting heads with the organization or causing any type of negativity.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
Are you refuting Jack's comment by saying these trades were good?
Or are you just saying we have all of our starters by trades? Maybe the only reason we have one starter who has come up through our system is because this organization has made a habit of trading away young talent. I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH JACK WILSON. I wouldn’t consider any of the trades you listed as “good”. Even the trade for Freddy is probably lateral best. The best trade would be Christansen for Wilson, how funny. We also trade for guys who can fill holes at best. BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS, THIS ORGANIZATION HAS NEVER TRADED FOR OR SIGNED A PLAYER WHO COULD IMPACT AN ORGANIZATION. This stretch of 16 straight losing seasons is a direct result of terrible upper management. NEAL HUNTINGTON INCLUDED!
Well, prepare to be educated on this site.
But thanks for preaching the same thing we’ve been hearing over and over again. News flash, buddy — You aren’t some crusader against the evil conspiracy of the Pirate front office. There is no conspiracy. Read some blogs here, and get some facts straight before you mouth off.
Sorry for feeding the trolls, fellas.
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