Different angle on McLouth deal

by houksyndrome on Jun 4, 2009 3:57 PM EDT Comment 21 comments

There is much debate about (1) whether this deal was a salary dump and part of the 18 year pattern of trading our only good players etc. and (2) whether the guys we got back were good enough to justify trading Nate, what kind of players do they project into etc. One thing that hasn't been discussed so much is what is the future of our OF? Morgan has been a very pleasant surprise but despite his decent/good OBP and good defense, he has no power at all. Because of this, as well as Nate's lack of ideal speed for CF, I had always envisioned Nate sliding over to left field when Cutch came up, with Cutch in center. Given the dimensions of PNC park, this would be a great defensive alignment, since a tweener CF/corner hybrid is exactly what we need in left at PNC. Nate would have been a great defensive LF for us, and his bat would have been above average in LF too (though not as good as his bat plays in CF). This trade leaves our organization with no real power above A+ (w/ exception of the constantly injured Doumit and the oscillatory Adam LaRoche). Where are we gonna get the power from? We seem to be stockpiling AAA pitchers with these trades as though we want to be decent again in 2010 or 2011 - we also now have a very good defensive team and a lot of guys who can get on base (Andy LaRoche, McCutchen) but where will the power come from? Or is the plan to use our speed at the top of the lineup to "manufacture" runs? If so, that strategy sounds familiar doesn't it?

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Well

I think right now it’s all about acquiring talent and assets. We can’t be tied to looking for specific skills, just like we can’t be tied to looking for specific positions. The Pirates need talent at all levels of the organization. Power will come one way or another. If they are lucky enough to acquire a surplus in one area, perhaps that could be used to fill a shortage. Example, if Ackley falls to the Pirates at 4, should they pass on him because they have McCutchen, Tabata and Hernandez? Noot if he is the most talented player available. Acquire talent and let it play out. When did you ever hear of an organization say something like, “oh no, we have to many above average, major league ready center fielders”. Look at the Penguins, did they pass on Stall because he was a center and they already had Sid and Geno? No they accumulated talent.

by superope on Jun 4, 2009 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Runs are runs, regardless of where they come from.

I don’t care how many home runs the team hits, as long as the players without power are putting runs on the board other ways (walks, defense, doubles, etc.).

A run is a run is a run.

by Vlad on Jun 4, 2009 4:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Vlad:

I think you should check the most recent attendance figures before you make another statement like that. The reason we are dead last in attendance is partially because a lack of power. Everybody knows the old adage: “Defense/pitching wins games but homeruns put asses in the seats.”

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jun 4, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IPF

You know, I think BD is better off with you. Keep it up with the entertaining posts.

By the way, I think you need to update your avatar with a recent picture of your grandson. He must be a lot bigger now. Buy a McLouth jersey before they are gone and put it on him to show your support for the PBC.

by patthatt on Jun 4, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please...

show me some statistics that correlates attendance to Home Runs. I seriously doubt that HR’s are more important than wins. You need runs to win. HR’s are not the only wat to get runs. Please back up your statements with facts.

by Slick1 on Jun 4, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IPF

has never let facts get in the way of a good rant.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 4, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do chicks dig the long ball?

In an article by David Gassko in “The Hardball Times” he stated:

“Well, the data tell us that each home run puts about 2,000 extra fans in the stand, and that number is highly significant. In other words, Ryan Howard is probably worth an extra 60,000 fans a season in terms of attendance.”

Just to set the record straight, I did not say that homeruns were the only determining factor driving attendance but they were a significant contributor in putting people in the stands. Of course, winning helps (especiailly in the following season) but then the Pirates have failed miserably at that, too. As a result, it is fair to estimate that the loss of Bay, Nady, and McLouth will have cost the team close to $6,000,000 because of the homeruns they won’t hit for us and that doesn’t include the loss in attendance because of the actual games lost.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jun 5, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The bottom line is....

Winning puts people in the stands. The Steelers have their own style of winning. It might not be the “sexy” way, scoring 35 points a game. They play awesome defense and smother teams. The Pirates can do the same. Solid pitching backed up by excellent defense can translate to wins easier than depending on a team of Ryan Howards, Dan Ugglas, or Adam Dunns to hit homeruns. I would love for them to win by OBP, smart baserunning and steady pitching and so will the masses once shown success. People lost faith in the Penguins for awhile there too but look at them now.

So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded!? Yea, totally. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us and you're retarded. Thats 25 percent. -South Park; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce.

by gorillakilla34 on Jun 5, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pirates attendance has shown a fairly steady downward trend...

…since the opening of the park, with a one-year bump centered around the ASG. It doesn’t look like it tracks at all with the team’s HR production.

Winning puts asses in seats, and for the purpose of winning, a run is a run.

by Vlad on Jun 5, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Check this out

My wife, who knows nothing at all about baseball other than that “I waste too much time on it,” just now heard my report on the McLouth trade. I told her that my beloved team, the Pirates who’ve lost for the last 17 years (it’s imminant), just traded their best best player for three prospects, 3 guys they hope will make the pro team.

Her response?

“Well apparently the best player isn’t doing much for them, so maybe these three guys will do better.”

Should note she’s a manager, so maybe she knows something more than a lot of us do, myself included.

Thanks hun.

by Pensburgh Pirates on Jun 4, 2009 5:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Salary dump is a good way...

To describe the Pirate strategy because it is exactly the reason both Bay and Nady were traded…and now we can add McLouth to the list. One has only to observe NH’s actions over the next few months to observe his refusal to re-sign both Sanchez and Wilson to understand that he believes he can finish last with a group of cast-aways who could play on “Gilligan’s Island” or last with a few decent guys. Given the choice he will chose the cheaper way out to save money and impress his bosses. As hard as it is to believe, the Pirates were recently still generating cash (not revenue) to its owners and it has become clear that they prefer the money to a winning ballclub. As late as 2001, the team generated a net operating loss of only $1.0 million which was better than 19 other clubs. Further, when revenue sharing was factored into the equation the $1.0 NOL was reduced to just $580,000. (Source of Data: MLB and USA Today—12/07/01)

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jun 4, 2009 10:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Quit it with the flip-flopping.

If I remember correctly, you were the one that was so disgusted with Laroce and Moss that you were calling for their release and you wanted to replace them with McCutchen, Tabata and Walker. Well, McCutchen is up and I think the front office proved that it made the right decison by keeping Walker and Tabata where they were at. You were also a person that called for a complete rebuilding and that is exactly what you are getting now. It makes no sense, and does no one any good, to constantly take a position opposite from the one the front office is taking simply to be able to complain about the situation the Piartes are in. If you want to claim that the Pirates are still being cheap and have no intention of building a championship caliber club as they claim they are doing, so be it. But don’t call for a total blow up of the roster in one post and then come back condeming it another when it happens. It’s tiresone and quite frankly it’s the reason people can’t stand it when you post on this blog!

by Slick1 on Jun 4, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh snap

by Jake B on Jun 5, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think we should quit wasting words and cut to the chase here:

Moron.

by bucdaddy on Jun 5, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Money isn't even in the picture on McLouth.

If they wanted to not pay him a bunch of money over the next couple of years, they could’ve accomplished exactly that by not signing him to a long-term deal last offseason. Signing him to a deal in order to get rid of that same deal three months later seems like an incredibly byzantine thought process – much simpler (and therefore more likely) that they traded him purely because the Braves made an offer that they liked on the basis of talent.

by Vlad on Jun 5, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IPF

“One has only to observe NH’s actions over the next few months to observe his refusal to re-sign both Sanchez and Wilson….”

Sanchez’s will reach the PA needed for the 2010 option on his contract to automatically kick in-unless he gets hurt.

Wilson may very well be back in 2010, too. We’ll see what happens on the trade front and, if he isn’t traded, the PBC may work out something agreeable to both sides for Wilson’s contract option.

Speaking of Gilligan’s Island: Ginger or Mary Ann? I would’ve stayed on the island and chased the both of them, and said the hell with returning to “civilization.”

by patthatt on Jun 4, 2009 11:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Patthatt...

I know you don’t want Sanchez and Wilson traded and I can definiely undersand why you don’t. But if the McClouth trade should tell you one thing it’s that we are officially in a complete rebuilding mode. That’s right, the “R” word. Sanchez and Wilson are two of the most likely players to be dealt simply because the longer we hold on to them the more their trade value decreases. As much as I don’t want to see it because I know our defense will suffer it’s going to happen and should happen now that we have embarked along this path. Neil needs to see this thing through and do it right.

by Slick1 on Jun 4, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can maybe see Freddy being dealt, like Nate, for the right price. He is not as young as Nate and he isn’t as cheap but Freddy’s contract will kick in one way or another (he’s definetly looking like our all-star now) and NH won’t trade him just to trade him. Freddy has proved that he has recovered fully from last year and is probably at peak value himself. Jack isn’t more valuable anywhere else than he is here. There is a black hole (not in a good way) behind him in the SS depthchart in the minors. They may, as Pat stated, work out a better deal because Jack isn’t worth 8.5 million but I hope he stays out of everyone who has the potential to be dealt.

by gorillakilla34 on Jun 5, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Plus Jack is Chuck Norris tough.

by gorillakilla34 on Jun 5, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It looks like the Pirates are putting all their eggs in one basket in terms of power. That would be the basket of Pedro Alvarez! I have the same question—where in the world is our power going to come from? Doumit is a power threat, but Ad. LaRoche will be gone in July so what little power he has will be gone. This leads me to believe that Alvarez will be up next year and that the organization is looking to him as the main source of power. Man, there is tons of pressure on this kid! He’s a great player, but he is also human.

by mspirate on Jun 5, 2009 3:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

it was not a salary dump

The Pirates don’t ever do trades to simply “dump” salaries. That is the stupidest thing people can say. These guys are honestly trying to make this team better and I think they are doing really well. I would have made the Nate trade too.

I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ

by omar moreno on Jun 5, 2009 11:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs