I popped on here wondering if the editorial would warrant a post, to make sure I wasn’t overreacting to it myself. Maybe it’s just the two of us overreacting to it!…. I was struck not by the general opinion itself — I’ve already suggested elsewhere on here that I’m not in love with the trade — but the P-G followed the most ridiculous of the available forks in the road, that this was a salary dump, and went so far as to demand a change in ownership. I’d have to check, but I’m not even sure they did that after the Ramirez trade. Essentially, the P-G argued that this trade was worse, or the same as, the Ramirez trade in terms of how it reflected the front office’s capacity or intent. I think that’s not only unfair, but lazy.

That said, I don’t think it’s fair at all to criticize the players for their reactions. I’ve bemoaned elsewhere the tendency to forget that these guys are human beings. Whether or not it moves the ball forward for the Pirates as an organization, or Adam LaRoche as a human being, to be sad that one of his friends is gone is not really fair game for criticism. Also, from a professional standpoint, LaRoche’s comment about 4 year plans not being much relevant to his life struck a particular chord with me. I don’t think they were going far this year anyway, but at some point in a few years, we’re all going to demand that this management plan start to bear fruit. For the players, what they know is they were 4 games under .500, with offense being the culprit that hept them down, to this point — and now their No. 3 hitter is gone. It’s not unreasonable for them to be very, very unhappy that their present chances of winning have been lessened. They don’t play for the organization’s success; they play to win, today.

I also think you weren’t entirely fair to DK. The sentence following your link:

“A bit dramatic?

Not by design: McLouth was that duo’s card-playing partner on that table, and he was, of course, traded Wednesday night to the Atlanta Braves for three prospects. There almost always was a candle there."

I agree with you that the P-G editorial was garbage, but the rest of it doesn’t deserve that strong a criticism.

Ok, the P-G editorial was full of poor analysis, but I’m fairly happy with how the mainstream media, in general, has responded. Keith Law , as always, gave a fair and objective analysis of it, but I was surprised when Peter Gammons gave an excellent analysis of the trade and the Pirate’s situation on Mike and Mike on ESPN. I’m sure a lot of casual and typical idiot fans saw or heard this and now see that this was not a salary dump or some garbage like that. Gammons pointed out that McClouth wasn’t good enough to build a team around, the Pirates needed serious help at all levels, particularly pitching, and that it was a solid move to compete in the long run. More and more casual fans can’t help but get good analysis. It would not surprise me at all if more of them heard Gammons than read the editorial.

Do you think dumping Mclouth’s salary for mediocre prospects is a way to make the signing of Sano fit into Nuttings budget? I don’t think the prospects they received are going to be any better than Mclouth is now, and certainly not players you can build a team around.

the agenda and actions of the new FO will run them out of town before their “plan” gets a chance to come to fruition? THAT is the worst possible scenario, IMO.

IMHO, this trade is a reflection of how serious and commited the new leadership is to making the Bucs better. They trade one of the favorite/best player who can help them win games this year for 3 players who MAY help them win in a few years. That is a statement of just what their plans are and how committed they are in implementing them.

Are they right? Can they make the Bucs winners in a few years? I don’t know but the old way did not work for 16 years (and counting). All of the players they have aquired seem to better than the vast majority of players in the system. So it seems to me that they are increasing the level of talent.

Will this talent level make a winner? Not yet is my answer. NH knows that he still has a long way to go before the organization has a steady stream of major league talent coming our of the farm system.

Be prepared for many more such moves over the next few years as NH tries to forge a whole new organization. Some moves will work, some will not. But it seems that NH is going to do what he sees will make the Bucs competitive even if it makes him unpopular with the players and fans in the short term. He is in it for the long term.

My bet is if NH can make the Bucs a winner in a few years, then all of these unpopular moves will be forgiven by the fans. If the moves don’t make the Bucs a winner, then he will be fired-and possibly never get a job in baseball ever again.

Charlie, I think you make all valid points except for the criticism of the “shrine” which others noted. Seems more like a joke to me than anything else. I remember back in the day Josh Miller and Mike Schnek (Steelers punter and long-snapper respectively) built a shrine to Kris Brown in the locker room in the hopes that he’d someday make a field goal.

Also are any of us really suprised that the mainstream Pittsburgh media is doing a poor job of analysis on baseball trades? This is nothing new. I am excited every year for Steelers training camp to start just so I don’t have to see Smizik and Cook columns on the Pirates anymore.

please just blow it up and get it over with, if that is your plan. If you have no use for Jack, Freddy, Adam, Grabow, etc, do it now and be done with it. If they are to even be a small part of the near future (beyond this season)…that needs to be addressed soon.

If Pirates management insists on going for quantity over quality…as has been the case over the last 12 months…may as well just ditch all of the trade assets now (between now and the 1st of September, not this week)…get the quantity of prospects and hope a few pan out…all together. The Pirates will lose some of them anyway (Adam, for one). Instead of getting rid of a piece…adding a piece…getting rid of a piece…adding a piece…ad infinitum. Those are steps sideways…not forward. Pulling the rug out from under the fans feet every few months is not the way to get the casual fan back…let alone the strong fan base.

Continually adding B and C prospects and taking away starters does not improve the product. And we don’t see the acquisition of any A prospects from outside the organization happening. I’m sorry, but at the point we acquired Andy LaRoche and Jose Tabata, they were no longer A prospects…especially in the minds of the teams relinquishing them. Andy may turn out to be a quality 3B…I’m not yet convinced that he’s much above the median 3B. Tabata…needs to stay on the field before he can even be assessed.

Pirates management has a significant opportunity to make a statement for the future in the next 60 days…with the amateur draft…Latin American signing period…and the trade deadline. Skimping on money (especially small differences) and/or prospects will not be tolerated…at least by me. Going back on what management has been preaching…will not be tolerated.

An obvious overdraft on Tuesday night…would be met with a very loud uproar…in my opinion. And a draft of someone like Tony Sanchez at #4 would be an overdraft. An overdraft…plus not signing Sano…plus giveaway trades (trades for purely financial reasons) at the deadline…the result would be…the sound of crickets in PNC Park…not only in August and September…but in 2010.

At least in my mind…the management team can and should be held accountable for their actions over the next 60 days or so. People will vote with their pocketbooks…and considering the economic climate…that should be of significant concern to the Pirates business model. Dead last in attendance and alienating the fan base…yep…that’ll bring the numbers up.

He understands quite well why the average fan is upset. His criticism is of PG, who, had they bothered to research the matter even briefly, would have at least written a more balanced article about the trade.

Of course you and many of the other fans who know very little about minor league players are upset by the trade. They see us as getting nothing for something, while in fact, McLouth was very unlikely to help us contend for a playoff spot someday but one or more of the players acquired very well could.

and the Post-Gazette editorial board (did they let Collier sit at the table when they wrote this one?) isn’t aware enough to recognize that. The Bucs wanted to make room in the OF for McCutchen. Now we know the front office likes Nyger Morgan & we can debate that all we want, but there isn’t a trade market for either him or Brandon Moss. So McLouth was the logical one to go. The trade yielded 2 of the Braves top 10 prospects, but I’ll argue that Charlie Morton was the key to the trade. Morton struggled in the majors last year, but he is a legitimate major-league ready starter prospect who doesn’t get recognized because he emerged in the minors at the beginning of last year, got enough major league time to be ineligible for prospect lists & was blocked by the Braves willingness to spend for free agent starters this winter. Morton will be in the Bucs rotation in less than 2 weeks – the big question right now is who does he replace? In my mind, the Bucs traded a starting OF for a starting pitcher & 2 prospects – that’s a baseball trade, not a salary dump.

It doesn’t sound as though you have been following our national politics very closely lately.

I would have liked to shop Mclouth to more than one team. Maybe another team would have given up a blue chip prospect, especially if Mclouth would have had a some extra time to get his numbers up. I just felt like we had one offer, and we took it. Did management have enough time to think about it??? Mccutchen and Mclouth would have been a nice combo in the outfield.

But I will suggest the team wasn’t looking to trade Nate. Rather, the Braves, in a near desperate situation, needed an outfielder and wanted to make a deal immediately. My GUESS, and it is only that, is that they made an offer and told the Pirates they had 24 hours to respond or they were going to look elsewhere. The FO obviously thought it was too good to pass up so they made the deal. Thus, they didn’t shop Nate and probably weren’t looking to.

I hadn’t seen that or heard that, but I love it. Can you link me to a source?

that the FO did not value McLouth highly, or at least thought he was overvalued in the market. We know that they employ a lot of statistical analysis and are very thorough in their valuation of trades. How we rate this trade depends on how we rate McLouth—gold glover or below average defensive CF/All-Star or average hitter. I think the FO had determined that he wasn’t as good as his reputation, and so when were presented with a good package of prospects from the Braves, jumped on it before other clubs’ valuation of McLouth sunk to their level.
I don’t know how the Pirates have “average” fans at this point. I was very upset about losing McLouth, as someone else posted above, he was OUR slightly above average player, and seemed like an excellent Pirate—when I saw that he said upon leaving (paraphrasing) “I wanted to win HERE”, my heart broke a little. But I support what the FO is doing, and that they have a plan. I’m tired of hearing after every trade people on their computers writing “I’m done with the Pirates!” (including on this site) Geez, 16 1/2 years into it, after all that’s happened, a questionable trade for 3 different prospects makes you give up? Really?
Thanks, Charlie for an excellent post, and letting us convene here on your site.

“The Post-Gazette editorial, which is supposed to be the voice of reason for the entire paper, could have bothered to figure out who the prospects were, whether they were worth trading McLouth for, and what they really meant in terms of the future of the ballclub.”

what do the prospects really mean in terms of the future of the ballclub? what will these guys do on the field? we can project all we want… we can point to placement on this list or that… but unless and until they take the field at pnc park, we really don’t know… until we do, people – especially the casual fans who make up the vast majority of the fanbase – are going to use the pirates’ past history of prospect acquisition as a gauge for current trade evaluation…

my dad is one of these casual fans… he has neither the time nor the inclination to consult baseball prospectus, baseball america, fangraphs, wilbur’s scouting report, bucs dugout or anywhere else to divine the value of the prospects involved… or even nate mclouth, for that matter… he basically knows the following things: 1) nate mclouth is a pretty good and relatively young player… 2) over the years, the pirates have consistently maintained a low payroll… 3) over the years, the pirates have made a habit out of trading their talented veteran players… 4) often, the return in these trades is “prospects”… 5) these prospects are supposed to make the team better in the future than the present… 6) the team continues to suck…

I talked to him the day after the deal and he was pretty upset about it… he might be able to buy into the idea of rebuilding if it hadn’t failed time and time again… and maybe you and I can at some length explain the difference between half-hearted attempts at rebuilding and how draft strategy has changed and this that and the other thing ‘til a casual fan like my dad isn’t paying attention anymore…

the pirates have already burned bridges with the casual fans… there’s no credibility left… there’s no faith that the team will do the right thing… whether it’s drafting the wrong guy (or playing him at the wrong position) or making moves just to save money or getting crummy prospects in return…

the names may be forgotten, but the impression left by ryan vogelsong and jeff wallace and chad hermansen and bobby bradley and bobby hill is still there… and until these new guys accomplish more on the field than some of their predecessors, only the uberfans are going to draw any distinguishing line between them… and when even the uberfans are questioning the deal (why now? is this the best return they could have gotten? what message does this send to anyone else who might sign a long term deal?), the casual fans can hardly be blamed for objecting, based on the evidence that they can process…

but to stand astride and point out their errors… that’s the curse of the uberfan… sure, you get to “know” more, but it also means that you end up spending more time being frustrated that everyone else isn’t talking on your level… try to elevate the discussion as you will, but you can’t bring the masses up like that… they’re just not that interested… and it’s not just a sports thing… it applies to politics… science… health… economics… people spouting off what they think they “know” while you the “expert” has to explain why they’re wrong time and again… most frustrating of all: they’re right sometimes…

yeah, that was long-winded and a bit philosophical… but the general point was that it’s not the “stupidest soap opera”… it’s a natural reaction to 17 years of dreadful baseball… and maybe, just maybe they’re doing it just to grief the uberfans… and on the flipside, be glad people are still getting upset… I think this franchise is a lot closer to “going montreal” than some people think…

It was a humane gesture made for the sake of a friend….