Why Hasn't Trading Their Best Hitters Caused the Pirates to Lose More?
The Pirates' trades of Jason Bay, Xavier Nady and Nate McLouth were rebuilding deals. But that doesn't mean the next couple of years have to be that much more painful than they otherwise would have been. The Pirates' defense with Bay, Nady and McLouth in the outfield was a disaster. Without Bay and Nady it's become far better, and the improvements are likely to continue now that the Bucs have replaced McLouth with Andrew McCutchen. These changes offset most of the losses the Pirates took on offense, which is one reason why the Pirates' 2009 W-L record is practically identical to their 2008 W-L record before the Bay and Nady trades. So even though the Pirates got back prospects in these deals, they may not have made their 2009 team that much worse.
Just a warning: this article uses a ton of stats, much more than I usually use. If that's not something you're comfortable with, feel free to skip to the last few paragraphs. Or ignore this article entirely; there will be a new one in a few hours.
Let's begin with offense. I'll use Baseball Prospectus' Value Over Replacement Player statistic as a quick way to measure, in runs, how much each player contributes. VORP calculates a player's value relative to others who play his position and assigns a run value based on comparison to the typical backup or AAA player at that position. It does not factor in defense.
In all cases, I'm looking at numbers from the entire season. The 2009 numbers are through Saturday's games.
| 2008 | |
| Jason Bay | 45.4 |
| Xavier Nady | 38.2 |
| Damaso Marte | 11.9 |
| Nate McLouth | 50.9 |
| TOTAL | 146.4 |
Bay, Nady and McLouth obviously made enormous offensive contributions to the Pirates in 2008, and Bay kept hitting after being traded to Boston.
| 2009 | |
| Jason Bay | 25.1 |
| Xavier Nady | 0.4 |
| Damaso Marte | -5.2 |
| Nate McLouth | 11.3 |
| TOTAL | 31.4 |
The four players the Bucs traded have been far less valuable in 2009 than they were in 2008. Of course you'd expect their collective VORP to be lower than in 2008, since the 2009 season isn't over and VORP accumulates over time, but even if you multiply their 2009 total by three (since about a third of the season is now over), they're only a little more than half as valuable as they were last year. Bay has been better, but McLouth has been markedly worse, and Nady and Marte have done nothing. Of course, Nady's injury wasn't inevitable and might not have happened if he'd stayed with the Pirates, but then it also isn't inevitable that Bay would have stayed healthy if he hadn't been traded.
Still, compared to what Bay, Nady and McLouth's replacements have done, 31.4 offensive runs above replacement is quite a lot:
| 2009 |
|
| Nyjer Morgan | 1.0 |
| Brandon Moss | 0.7 |
| Andrew McCutchen | ??? |
| TOTAL | 1.7 |
(BP's projection system, PECOTA, predicts that McCutchen will be 6.6 runs above replacement this year.)
On the surface, there's quite a gap between what the old guys and the new guys, even considering Nady's injury. And we feel that in the games--the Pirates just don't hit homers anymore.
And yet, even after today's loss, the Pirates are on pace to win 75 games, well above their annual total of 67. True, they played most of those games with McLouth, but they didn't have Bay or Nady for any of them. And although the Pirates collapsed badly down the stretch in 2008 after the Bay and Nady trades, this year they're playing about as well (26-30 for a .464 winning percentage) as they did in 2008 before the trades occurred (50-58 for a .463 winning percentage as of July 30). How are the Pirates doing it?
The simplest explanation is to credit the pitching, and that's certainly at least partly fair, but I don't think that tells the whole story.
The Pirates' team ERA this year is 4.31. Last year it was 5.10. But if you look at their FIP ERA, which calculates the ERA you would expect the team to have based on pitcher-controlled outcomes like strikeouts, walks and homers, the two figures are much closer: 4.62 this year, compared to 4.84 last year.
When a ball is put into play, it's largely out of the pitcher's control. So a lot of the Pirates' improvement in ERA has come from improvements in balls in play, which the pitcher really doesn't have much to do with. There are some things about balls in play a pitcher can control somewhat, though, particularly line-drive rate, ground ball rate and fly ball rate. So let's look at those. (And I warn you, there's a lot of statistical huffing and puffing here, mostly to make sure we're being fair about the defensive efficiency statistics that I'll present in a few paragraphs.)
Pitchers do have a fair amount of control over whether their balls in play go for ground balls or fly balls, so let's look at those. The Pirates have allowed about the same percentage of ground balls in both 2008 and 2009. They've allowed a greater percentage of fly balls in 2009 than they did in 2008. Or, to put it a little differently, they've replaced some line drives with fly balls.
The 2008 Pirates had a 21.4% line drive rate, fourth-worst in the majors. In 2009, the Bucs' 18.8% line drive rate is 15th-best in the majors.
Obviously, hitters tend to have a very high batting average on line drives, which explains some of the gaps between the pitchers' expected and actual ERAs in 2008 and 2009. But it doesn't explain everything.
2.6% fewer of the Pirates' balls in play have gone for line drives this year. Pirates pitchers have allowed a .696 batting average so far this year on balls in play that were line drives. (That sounds alarming, but it's relatively normal or even a bit low.) They've allowed a .142 average on fly balls that weren't homers.
.697 - .142 = .555, and if we multiply .555 times 2.6, we get 1.443, which is the percentage of batted balls that would likely turn into hits if the 2009 Pirates reverted to the 2008 percentages of fly balls and liners they allowed.
Baseball Prospectus' Defensive Efficiency stat measures the percentage of batted balls a team's defense turns into outs. In 2009, the Pirates' Defensive Efficiency is .711, third-best in the majors; in 2008, it was .675, third-worst. (For context, that .675 figure is much more typical of recent Pirates defenses. In both 2007 and 2006, their defensive efficiencies were .674.)
So based on what we found about the 2008 and 2009 Pirates' line drive rates, let's subtract 1.4% from their 2009 defensive efficiency (that's the "1.443" two paragraphs above). I do this because some of the Pirates' improvement in Defensive Efficiency has to do with their pitchers allowing fewer line drives. So .711 - .014 = .697.
.697 is still much, much higher than the Pirates' 2008 defensive efficiency of .675. In fact, even a .697 defensive efficiency would give the Pirates a squarely middle-of-the-pack defense, far better than the ones they've had the past several years that have ranked near the bottom.
My point here is that a big chunk of the Pirates' apparent improvement in pitching is actually the result of improvements in defense. The Pirates' pitchers are better in 2009 than they were in 2008, but they're getting a lot more help than they've gotten in the past.
There are a number of factors that have affected the Pirates' improved defense (Freddy Sanchez's improved health and Andy LaRoche's improved play are among them), but the vast majority of the improvement has come from the outfield.
One of the best defensive stats is UZR, which assigns each player a run value based on outcomes in various "subzones" he's responsible for covering.
Let's compare 2009 Pirates outfield UZRs to 2008's. (These are the players' stats for the entire year, even when they were traded.)
| 2008 | |
| Xavier Nady | 3.9 |
| Nate McLouth | -13.8 |
| Jason Bay | -18.4 |
| TOTAL | -28.3 |
| 2009 | |
| Nyjer Morgan | 12.1 |
| Brandon Moss | 7.5 |
| Nate McLouth | -0.6 |
| TOTAL | 19.0 |
Now, you can express skepticism over UZR if you want, and in fact it's wise to be somewhat skeptical of UZR figures that only reflect a couple months of the season, because they're subject to sample size issues. But this is probably the most respected defensive metric around. And it confirms a lot of what the balls-in-play data tells us, which is that the Pirates have benefited from a much better defense in 2009. As I mentioned, some of that has to do with improvements in the infield, but as UZR suggests, it's really the outfield that has improved, and it's gotten better to such a great degree that it largely cancels out the large difference between the departed players' offensive production and the new ones'.
I'm sure you've noticed that UZR doesn't think Nate McLouth is a very good fielder. Personally, when I watched the Pirates this year and last, I saw in McLouth a fielder who didn't have the range many young centerfielders had, and one who consistently played too shallow, but I was surprised that his numbers were this bad. After all, he nicely handled most of the balls he did get to. But advanced fielding metrics pretty much universally reach the same conclusions about McLouth. Positioning may have something to do with it. But it's probably not some peculiarity that has to do with PNC's large outfield, or anything like that, since both Kenny Lofton and Tike Redman posted relatively good UZRs there.
So by replacing McLouth with Andrew McCutchen, who's blindingly fast (range is a very important part of outfield defense) and was universally regarded as a very talented defender as he came through the minors, the Pirates' outfield defense is likely to get even better. In fact, it isn't much of a stretch to hope they might have the best outfield defense in baseball for the next few years. This isn't just something to argue about over a beer; it's something that legitimate ly helps the Pirates win games.
Jason Bay and Nate McLouth were good players, and they'll be missed in Pittsburgh. Xavier Nady was a mediocrity, and I suppose he will also be missed in Pittsburgh. But in terms of the results, there's been no difference between the 2008 pre-trades Pirates and the 2009 Pirates. Some of that, again, is improvements in pitching, and the addition of productive players from the trades (Andy LaRoche, Ross Ohlendorf, and to a lesser extent Jeff Karstens) hasn't hurt either.
But perhaps the main reason the Pirates haven't gotten worse is that they've changed from a poor defensive team to a very good one, especially in the outfield. The fundamental complexion of the team is different. This isn't a change that's particularly easy for fans to see, which is one reason there continues to be lingering anger about the trades. The Pirates' old outfielders were active impediments to the Pirates' pitching staff, because they just didn't get the job done in the field. Now they have outfielders who do.
Forget about McLouth's Gold Glove; it's a ridiculous award. There are many better, faster centerfielders out there, and the Pirates have one in McCutchen. And so, while I wasn't thrilled about the return in the McLouth trade, don't be surprised if it doesn't actually sting much in the wins column, even in the short term. McCutchen won't hit as well as McLouth, but his defense will help the pitching look better.
That last paragraph could end up making me look ridiculous; of course it's possible the Pirates could play badly the rest of the year, especially if other players are traded. We've all seen enough Pirates baseball the past decade or so to know that predicting success, even on an extremely modest scale, is usually a very stupid thing to do. My point , though, is that the Nate McLouth deal, like the Bay and Nady deals before that, can't be e valuated simply by adding up a bunch of home run and RBI columns. It's a lot more complex than that.
The main point of the McLouth trade is to continue to rebuild. But by replacing McLouth with a much better fielder in McCutchen, and by adding Charlie Morton to the pitching staff at some point in the near future, the Bucs have set themselves up so that they might honestly expect to not play that much worse in the short term. They'll miss McLouth's bat, but they'll love McCutchen's glove. The Bay, Nady, and McLouth trades were made with the long term in mind, but the Pirates may not have to take much of a hit in the short term, at least not on the field.
4 recs |
50 comments
Comments
I won't read it, because.......
defensive stats in baseball are subjective and almost meaningless……….but Cutch for McLouth is a +1 for the good guys.
by Hitman Easler on Jun 8, 2009 8:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd argue that point...
Defesive stats are the most underdeveloped stats in baseball for sure, but they aren’t “subjective and meaningless”. The Gold Glove award, now that’s subjective and meaningless. WARP has been widely accepted by the baseball community and there has been loads of evidence to support the notion that it is accurate, as well as other defensive matrics, such as UZR.
by ILLZ on Jun 8, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happenstance or design
I’m not much of a stats guy, but that was well written, logical and interesting.
Now I’m going to slightly change subjects. As I’ve made clear, I love the theory behind the McLouth deal and “trust” that our baseball people appropriately evaluated the return. In short, this team isn’t that good and it makes sense to trade players a peak value (especially those who may be slightly over achieving) for return that helps build for the future.
However, in resposne to the predicable outcry of the general populace to the trade, NH has repeatedly said that the Braves approached us, that we weren’t shopping McLouth. In fact, Coonelly & Nutting were surprised when Huntington requested permission to make the deal. If I love the theory behind the trade, should I not be disheartened that we weren’t investigation our options? Was the deal happenstance or design by the Bucs?
It’s one thing if there was a plan to shop Nate at some point soon, say after the draft. It’s another if the team is not investigating those options because they are trying to not give up on the current team, because of the anticipated fan response, etc.
Frankly, they should be investigating what we can get for other players such as Capps, Maholm, etc. Theory aside, I’m sad to lose Nate as a player; I’d also hate to lose Doumit or Andy LaRoche, but we still ought to know what we could get for them and determine whether it makes sense to swing a deal.
FYI, I’ve written to Dejan asking him the same question, so perhaps we’ll have some insight in this week’s Q&A.
Good day.
by Uncle Nate on Jun 8, 2009 8:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you mean Adam LaRoche in the next to last paragraph?
RIP NATE. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN...MISTER TONY PLUSH!
by GTrain on Jun 8, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure he doesn't
But Andy LaRoche is the only untouchable on the team AFAIC. Every other player will either be gone before NH wants to compete, or isn’t good enough to play on a contender (Moss, Karstens). Maybe Ohlendorf. But why wouldn’t we trade, say, Duke? He’s got huge value right now (a bit less after last night), and won’t possibly be around when Tabata, Hernandez, and Alvarez get here*. So why is he still here? Same with Maholm, Capps, and any other player of value who has already reached arbitration.
- Maybe they’ll be June callups during his last season as a Buc. Doesn’t count. And don’t talk about extensions – after the McLouth trade, what current Pirate would sell a FA year to this team?
by JRoth95 on Jun 9, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I *heart* Neal....
“The veteran players, they were going to feel that way,” Huntington said. “The younger players, they probably need to do something in the game before they pop off.”
shuddup already Hip-Hop.
by Hitman Easler on Jun 8, 2009 8:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
When considering the defensive impact of the trades...
…don’t forget about the upgrade at 3B from LaRoche for Bautista. Per UZR, LaRoche is basically a neutral defender, while Bautista is -11.1 per 150 at 3B for his career.
by Vlad on Jun 8, 2009 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't the title have read...
Why has’t the trade caused the Pirates to WIN more?
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jun 8, 2009 10:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No
The point of the thread was to counter the popular notion that these trades are making the Pirates markedly worse in the short term.
by ILLZ on Jun 8, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
And the trades will hepl the Pirates win more down the road. IPF=the collective voice of the ignorant.
So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded!? Yea, totally. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us and you're retarded. Thats 25 percent. -South Park; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce.
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 8, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
help*
So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded!? Yea, totally. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us and you're retarded. Thats 25 percent. -South Park; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce.
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 8, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gorkys
Most of the negativity im hearing about Gorkys Hernandez is he is ANOTHER centerfielder. well the first thing i thought of when i seen he was involved was that he wasnt aquired to take over for McCutchen in CF, or that McCutchen wasnt our CFer of the future, but that Hernandez was aquired to play LF at PNC Park. I think after watching many fielders struggle to play LF and i think it is in our best interest to have 2 very good fielders in CF and LF. obviously the power lost from having Nyjer or Gorkys play LF needs to be made up by our RF, 3B, and 1B, as well as any above average power we can get from C, 2B, and SS without sacrificing much defense.
by BuccoBrigade on Jun 8, 2009 10:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I remember
seeing something written somewhere that way back in the ‘30s the Pirates did the same thing (essentially, play two CFers) because of the layout of Forbes Field, which (I wonder how many of today’s fans even know) was in CF 47 feet deeper than the North Side notch, and 365 feet down the LF line for much of its history.
Now that I think about it, I wonder why they didn’t play Clemente in left. He has the speed, glove and arm to patrol that much ground, certainly better than Stargell, even if Stargell was slimmer and faster in his youth than most of us remember him.
by bucdaddy on Jun 8, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe they needed that arm in right?
RIP NATE. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN...MISTER TONY PLUSH!
by GTrain on Jun 8, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except
Forbes Field RF line 300 feet
Deepest CF 457
LF line 365
Most batters are right handed.
I know the standard philosophy is to put your best arm in RF, so he can make the long throw to third base. But look at those dimensions and think about it: Where would you put YOUR best arm?
by bucdaddy on Jun 8, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand what you’re saying, I’m just guessing that they wanted Bob (Can I call you Bob?) to make the long throw to 3rd with his cannon, as you satated above.
RIP NATE. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN...MISTER TONY PLUSH!
by GTrain on Jun 8, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the Clemente note, I like to think he’d be proud to watch the Pirates play the OF. Especially if Tabata and his Clemente chest tattoo ever make it to right at PNC
RIP NATE. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN...MISTER TONY PLUSH!
by GTrain on Jun 8, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Elaborate?
Meanwhile, isn’t it amazing to realize that the Pirates had, on the team at the same time, possibly the greatest defensive right fielder AND the greatest defensive second baseman ever? What were the odds of that? (They made up for it some by having Dr. Strangeglove at first.)
Plus Virdon won a Gold Glove in ‘62, playing alongside Clemente. As long as we’re talking about defensive outfields.
by bucdaddy on Jun 8, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prevent extra bases
I don’t think the dimensions of a field are a factor at all. You have to prevent a team from going first to third on singles. If they double to the gap, or otheriwise hit one to the Forbes Field wall, your great arm is wasted, except for maybe a nifty laser to the cutoff man. Throwing guys out at the plate from deep OF, even if RC could and did do it, is a hit or miss proposition, and is field-neutral (left, center, right, doesn’t matter). Best arm in right, regardless of anything.
by azibuck on Jun 9, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My first thought...
…was that when you’re in the early stages of a rebuild, you focus first on acquiring talent, and only after a few years start worrying about how it all fits together.
by Vlad on Jun 8, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minor League Talent
Indeed. All the comments I’ve seen (mostly on the P-G PBC blog and Q&As) about how this or that minor league acquisition doesn’t make sense because, well, isn’t so-and-so already at that position flip me out. To DK’s credit, he’s shot them down with the comment that “When you have this level of organizational talent, no one’s blocking anyone.”
To which I would only add that minor league talent is like RAM – you can never have too much. Even if Cutch and Nyjer were to both develop into superstars by the time Hernandez is close to major-league ready, that just means that one of the three becomes a bargaining chip.
by DG Lewis on Jun 8, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...the problem is the opposite...
about half of the positions on the field…we’re not acquiring talent for. You know…like 2B…or SS. Or depth in the minors at C…or some power. The stuff we are acquiring is back-filling areas that we are already addressing (pitching and fast outfielders)…while ignoring stuff that needs to be addressed.
by Thunder on Jun 8, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we are acquiring SS talent at low levels
and really there is no positional-specific problem right now unless it involves playing time/development
by DITO on Jun 8, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Acquiring as much talent as possible
They should be prepared to deal Adam LaRoche, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson, Matt Capps, John Grabow, perhaps even Doumit, for the best available return as other teams show up with need. Keep drafting the best available talent from round to round, for the next couple of years. So you wind up with three really good centerfielders and no first baseman. At least a half a dozen teams will need one or two of your center fielders. You trade one or both for a first baseman and a few more good prospects.
Joe Brown had some decisions to make in 1968. Please wait before you say times have changed, because some fundamentals don’t change. You trade talent on the downswing for talent on the upswing, and draft smart. Now, back 40 years in tbe wayback machine. The team was very competitive in 1965 and 1966, not so much in 1967 and 1968. In the meantime, Brown had drafted Al Oliver, Richie Hebner, Manny Sanguillen, Bob Robertson, Dave Cash, Gene Clines, Dock Ellis, Steve Blass, Bob Moose and others at varying point throughout the mid to late 1960s.
In his lineup, he had Willie Stargell in LF, Matty Alou in CF, Roberto Clemente in RF, Maury Wills at 3B, Gene Alley/Freddie Patek at SS, Bill Mazeroski at 2B, Donn Clendenon at 1B and Jerry May/Jim Pagliaroni at C. He had three Hall of Famers in this lineup, and it wasn’t good enough to compete with the Cardinals, the Giants, the Dodgers and the Braves. (Something to think about when some complain that management is breaking up the team.)
Brown had another few wrinkles. He had to contend with an expansion draft, and divisional realignment in 1969. A pretty fluid situation, and he could have made any number of bad decisions. So what did he do? Well, he kept his three Hall of Famers. He let Montreal have Wills and Clendenon in 1969 (they flipped him to the Mets in time for him to help them win the WS). He traded Alou in 1969 for Vic Davalillo, and he let May and Pagliaroni go. He plugged in his kids, and later traded Cash for Ken Brett when he had Rennie Stennett and not enough pitchers, he trade for Gene Clines when he needed a backup catcher (Duffy Dyer) after he traded Milt May for Jerry Reuss, Freddie Patek for Jim Rooker when he needed another pitcher, and so on. He used whatever talent he had stockpiled in excess in order to fill gaps.
Now, fast forward. The difference, of course, is that we have little here and little waiting. In order to be competitive, Coonington have to be where Brown was in 1969. We are so far away from that as to induce despair. Not only that, people aren’t giving up their good young talent anymore. All these guys left is a ton of calculated risks, which they need to make quickly and with the knowledge that they are going to be wrong half the time if they are lucky.
Criticism is fair, but just remember how bare is their cupboard and how limited their alternatives. Maybe another Ross Ohlendorf will write a thesis someday chronicling how a succession of owners and general managers gutted a franchise between 1991 and 2007. It would be worth reading…for anyone not emotionally invested.
For my part, I think they are doing the best they can with the lousy hand they have been dealt. Sure, I might prefer another owner, but even with deep pockets this will take a while. It is is just that bad.
by RichieHebner on Jun 9, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good analysis
I’ll add a couple points.
1. You make it sound as if McLouth played shallow because he just took it into his head one day to play shallow. I doubt that’s how it worked. He played shallow because the coaches decided he should play shallow, right? So balls over his head aren’t necessarily his fault, but they sure show up in ratings.
2. A friend of mine (you, Paul) remarked that part of what makes Nate look better than he apparently is as a fielder is that he sets up and throws well. I have no evidence for that and wouldn’t know where to find any, but that’s something that doesn’t show up in UZR or, for that matter, any other defensive metric, does it? I mean, making strong, accurate throws is a big part of outfield defense that must be incredibly hard to measure, right? I suppose you could measure bases NOT taken by taking an average for the league as a whole, adding up how many times, say, a runner scores from first on a ball over the CF’s head vs. how many times for a ball over McLouth’s head, that kind of thing, but that’s beyond my ability.
3. It’s been written for a long time and I’ve never seen anyone dispute it that individual players, especially hitters, just do not have the impact on an entire team that we like to think they do. Leaving their defense aside, the average fan thinks if you replace Nyjer Morgan with Manny Ramirez your team will win 20 more games, but that’s virtually impossible. It’s more likely in the range of 3-5 wins, certainly not enough to lift a bad team to much better than below mediocre. So it stands to reason that subtracting a guy like Jason Bay from your lineup simply isn’t going to have the dire implications for your team that the average fan likes to think, especially if your team was bad to begin with. If you remove the best player from the Nationals, for instance, how much worse are they going to be? They’re not going to be 30-132 bad.
And, really, it probably affects the record of a good team even less. The Dodgers seem to be doing just fine without Manny for 50 games, don’t they? Boy, if I’m their GM I’m exploring all kinds of deals for him.
4. There’s an excellent Petri dish for this kind of analysis right on the team, in the form of a pitcher who’s having a great season without ever striking anyone out. If I were you, Charlie, I’d revisit this issue later in the year, once the small-sample-size issue has diminished, and examine the defensive performance behind Duke vs. the other starters.
by bucdaddy on Jun 8, 2009 11:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I actually thought about making Duke the central figure in this piece.
Yeah, I think Nate’s numbers might have been better if he’d played deeper. I don’t know that for sure, which is why I didn’t spend a lot of time on it. And if that’s true, McCutchen might have similar problems, just to a lesser degree. Just yesterday he had a double go over his head because he was playing too shallow. (Although in the Pirates’ defense, I believe this was against Humberto Quintero, who’s a pretty bad hitter.)
Nate does have a pretty good arm, although certainly not the best I’ve ever seen, and no, I don’t think UZR accounts for that.
by Charlie on Jun 8, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duke should be the central figure of a different piece
A piece that focus on him pitching better.
by azibuck on Jun 8, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to your point...
McCutchen might have similar problems, just to a lesser degree. Just yesterday he had a double go over his head because he was playing too shallow.
That’s in large part because they’re experimenting right now with just how shallow they can play him and have him still get to it. (They’re definitely overestimating him, but thats what they’re doing)
by geeves on Jun 8, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In response to # 2
THT did what you suggest—back in January the put a run value on outfield arms using 2008 data
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/best-outfield-arms-of-2008/
McLouth was at zero, which was below average for MLB centerfielders. 15 saved at least a half a run and eight had a negative value. Based on this study, Hunter Pence had the best arm in the majors. That’s probably kind of funny to anyone who has ever seen a replay of him throwing in slow motion (he just looks ridiculous).
by DITO on Jun 8, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pence...
has one of the funkiest throwing motions I’ve seen in the majors…but it seems to be damned effective. He seems to be a very fundamentally sound outfielder. Sometimes looks are deceiving.
by Thunder on Jun 8, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His swing isn't exactly textbook, either.
Interesting player.
by Vlad on Jun 9, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great read
I’ve been critical on past posts of the defensive stats used on this site, but this is a well written, well explained article. Great job Charlie.
by Danatural08 on Jun 8, 2009 11:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
defense is the frontier
it’s untapped, overshadowed by offense, and inexpensive in comparison. I cannot bang the drum loudly enough that good defense gives more return on the dollar in many areas.
One such is in pitching. Average pitching with great defense makes the pitcher look better. Better looking pitchers are always going to be in demand and capture better trades. MLB gm’s almost never look at a pitcher’s success as being a product of his defense, they only ever look at being possibly influenced by the hitters he faces, or the park he pitches in.
by vherub on Jun 8, 2009 11:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"MLB gm’s almost never look at a pitcher’s success as being a product of his defense"
There might be a few who don’t but it strikes me as inconceivable that most of them aren’t well aware of the relationship. Otherwise, what do they do all day?
by WestCoastBuc on Jun 8, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll disagree that it’s untapped, but agree that’s overshadowed by offense. A lot of smart GM’s put a lot of focus on getting plus defenders, but offense has lot more sex appeal. The biggest problem with defense, though, is that it’s poorly characterized compared to offensive metrics. OPS means a lot more than UZR. Defensive metrics show a lot more variance, so while it’s pretty easy to separate good defenders from bad ones, it’s very difficult to separate good defenders from great ones and identify undervalued players in that way. I also think it’s easier to characterize a defense as a whole than it is to break it up by player. Obviously we have a pretty good team defense, but how exactly do you divide up the credit?
So while some GM’s seem to largely disregard defense, I think a lot of GM’s look for good hitters that have at least decent gloves to build around. I don’t think there are huge gains to be had, although it definitely shouldn’t be ignored.
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on Jun 8, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moneyball.......
I think a lot of people don’t fully understand what the central message of Moneyball was meant to be. Michael Lewis follows Billy Beane through the course of a season and writes about the emphasis that the A’s put on finding players with high OBPs because they generally feel that that skill was being largely undervalued by other teams.
The take away was not that OBP is the most important metric out there, but that it was being undervalued by the market at that time. Well we seen a few cycles since the early aughts, but recently we’ve seen the A’s and the Rays and a few others place a newfound emphasis on defense. Some of this certainly has to do with the “end” of the steroid era, but it is largely due to the fact that it has been difficult to measure and they feel it has been undervalued by the market. I think the Pirates FO is fully on board with this line of thinking. Chicks may dig the long ball, but teams are placing a renewed emphasis on defense.
by dtoddwin on Jun 8, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It may be that defense is undervalued, but it’s extremely difficult to quantify, and thus extremely difficult to assign a dollar amount to. Also, Beane developed a methodology to find undervalued talent, but at this point the majority of MLB teams follow similar processes. We can say things like “defense is the new frontier”, but applying a widely-used methodology to a new area isn’t nearly as innovative as developing the methodology in the first place, and as such it’s far less likely to bring similar yields. The Rays are a good team, but they were fortunate last year. This year, they’re sitting at .500. The A’s are currently a half a game behind us. If those are the two teams who, along with us, are ahead of the curve on defense, then azibuck was probably onto something when he said it’s overhyped.
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on Jun 8, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
Well written, well explained. I wish this could be downloaded into the consciousness of all the Pirates fans out there screaming about these deals.
One side note, I don’t think Gorkys defense has been well evaluated in deciding whether the return for McLouth is worth it. In the very same articles and places which discuss how valuable Nyjer Morgan has been, Gorkys batting projections have been derided. If he’s exactly a 23 year old Nyjer Morgan when he makes the big club, that’s an incredibly valuable player almost regardless of what he hits. If he’s any improvement with the stick, that just adds to his value. Outfield defense looks to be the new OBP in undervalued commodity, and the Buccos just stepped in and grabbed what might be the best defensive outfielder in the minors. Astute and underconsidered when judging the trade.
by mattenat on Jun 8, 2009 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is absurd
An OF that OPS’s .600 isn’t a liability, it’s a run-sucking black hole.
I liked the deal, but Gorkys Hernandez would need to be able to fly like Superman, literally, to merely even out his drag on the offense if he hits even .250 with few walks and no power. If he hits less, he might as well pitch and play CF.
by azibuck on Jun 8, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ummm...
hitting .250 with few walks and no power…that sounds like Nyjer Morgan the last 45 Pirates games. Hitting .236/.328/.291 for an OPS of .619. The 22 walks in that period is really the only offensive benefit. And running during that period…9 SB, 5 CS and 2 pickoffs (and a 3rd one that the umpire flat out missed (Berkman). That’s barely .500 running.
by Thunder on Jun 8, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great work Chuck
im legitimately concerned about the future prospects of these here Pirates. Neil Huntington seems like a guy who knows what he’s doing. that worries me.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 8, 2009 2:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What can't be measured
The effect of improved pitching on batted balls.
This was a nice writeup, but defense has already become overhyped/overstated to me. Except in the most extreme, the impact on runs between the best and worst defenders, particularly OF, is just not that great.
by azibuck on Jun 8, 2009 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Like the difference between a two-hopper and a scorcher?
Yeah, I was thinking that if the LD/FB ratio has shifted, the number of hard grounders has probably dropped by a related percentage, which also helps the D enormously.
That said, I don’t actually agree that D has become overstated. What I do think has happened is that, predictably, now that statheads* have defensive metrics they’re happy with, they push D as important. Whereas 10 years ago, when we had little more than errors and assists, any stathead worth his salt would tell you that the ideal team was 8 Jason Giambis, because fielding was infinitely less important than (on your knees, boy) OPS.
- and this isn’t directed at Charlie at all; it’s a general observation
by JRoth95 on Jun 9, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good observation on the evolution of seamhead* focus
*I think the proper term is seamhead, not stathead.
by azibuck on Jun 9, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before I sign off tonight...
I just wanted to day that this was a really nice post. Nice work Charlie this was pretty cool!
by Slick1 on Jun 8, 2009 11:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Um, Jack?
Nice post, Charlie. I appreciate you getting into the weeds on this. But, inevitably, a couple quibbles:
Do you think that maybe having Jack for 3/4 of the games might have had something to do with the defensive improvement? Since you can pretty much see his replacements (both this year and last) costing the team at least 1 run every other game, it seems kind of glaring not to mention him as a reason for improved D (not that Freddy and Andy haven’t helped enormously as well).
The other thing is more of a matter of emphasis: according to your calcs, the fly ball/line drive thing accounts for .014 of the difference between .675 and .711. That’s about 40% of the difference, and only leaves 60% to be spread around among 6 fielders. And, with Morgan the best defender in baseball, I’m not sure any of the other changes count for all that much individually.
by JRoth95 on Jun 9, 2009 9:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Right. But UZR says most of that improvement is coming mostly from the outfield (and yes, that includes Morgan).
by Charlie on Jun 9, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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