Get OVER the McLouth Trade!!!
I am so sick and tired of reading the emotional whiners on this topic!!! There is obviously intelligent discussion to be had on the return as well as core players to build around, but almost a week later and there are people who are ready to run NH out of town. This is ridiculous and here are 3 reasons why:
1. We called up our most hyped, homegrown, major league ready prospect since Aramis Ramirez to replace McLouth. Of course he does not have the pedigree of 1.5 major league seasons as a starter, but since his call up, are any of you worried about his potential/upside?
2. With the commitment to the prospects now in the system and their respective age, is it wise to build a future winning product on the field with a guy who was deemed organizational and who over achieved at 27 years old? When the talent in the minors blossom (project 2011/2012), McLouth would be 30. How many teams build around 30 year olds? Where is the precedent? There is no precedent. McLouth is not Clemente. McLouth is an average MLB centerfielder at best at 27. What is he going to be at 30?
3. It will take more than 1.5 years to buld the minors back up after the Bonifay/Littlefield debacle. Let's examine NH's moves on merit. The Nady/Marte trade has yielded us two starting pitchers and top 80 minor league candidate with upside. Do you all think our rotation would be better off without Ollie and Karstens given the Nady injury/Marte ineffectiveness? What about the Bay trade. Bay has done nothing but produce, but at the same time, Andy LaRoche gives us a player under our control for the next several years and stabalizes a position for us that has not been solid since Jeff King. Morris is oft injured and the jury is out. Moss has been a disappointment, but is relatively young and under our control. The net/net is we gave up a producer we were about to lose control of, and in return received high upside guys, one of which looks like the makings of a stud. Also take a look at all the some of the transactional moves:
Steve Jackson has the markings of a ground ball bullpen specialist and we lost nothing
Robinson Diaz has provided nice depth at catcher and all we lost was a utilityman
Jaramillo has produced nicely in Doumits absence and all we lost was an underachiever
Delwyn Young leads the league in pinch hitting effectiveness and all we lost was an organizational player
These are just a few of NH's good moves. I would be hard pressed to find any deals that NH has struck that are bad deals and in 1.5 years you start to see trends. We are in good hands with NH/Coonley. They are doing things the right way and making smart baseball moves. We need to get on the bandwagon - not jump off. We are doing better on the field than we have in a long time and we arent even doing it with our projected weapons. It is an exciting time to be a Bucco's fan - raise the freakin' Jolly Roger!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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thank goodness there are others...
Much agreed. However, let us not be too harsh on Nate, I think he’s a great player. If anything he was showing that last year was not a fluke, and while his batting average was down a bit, his stats were all pretty much in line with last year—a few less doubles. There’s no reason to believe he won’t rack up more doubles and bring up his average to the familiar .275 region over the rest of the season. Thanks Nate!
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Let's not.....
throw around the word great. Everybody likes Nate, but he is not a great player by any definition of the word. He is a great baserunner, but he is, at best, a good player.
Nate is a good player on a below average team
Nate is not someone who you build around, but he is a solid major league player. He is the type of solid professional we hope to have acquired that will help us contend in ’11.
One bad trade.
Salomon Torres. Neal Huntington has admitted it was a bad trade. But he’s retired now, so it was pretty much meaningless.
Keeping a player
doesn’t mean you have to “build” around him. Has there ever been a contending team that didn’t have a number of players 30 and older? His age isn’t much of an argument.
There is a pretty good chance that neither pitcher in the deal will ever contribute significantly to the Pirates. I don’t know much about Hernandez. Given the success rate of prospects, there is a not that small of a chance that salary relief could be the only return.
I don’t think Karstens should be held up as an example of an element of a good trade unless he does better. “Eating innings” isn’t something to build around either.
Couldnt disagree with you more
The Pirates actually tagged McClouth as a “cornerstone” piece of the rebuilding process. For that reason alone I think that age is a major factor in this deal. If your core prospects are all low to mid 20’s and all in the outfield, I do not believe that a 30 year old average centerfielder is a piece of the future and therefore a tradeable commodity at peak value (which is right around now).
As far as the pitchers in return, we cannot forecast who will or will not be part of the core in the future, but both of these pitchers have large upside with one being major league ready. Locke is a lefty with nasty stuff who is in high A ball now. Based on his development, he may be looking at cracking the major league club around 2011 or 2012. As far as Morton, most people close to the team think he is ready now (ala McCutchen). With a year and a half under his belt by 2011, he could be a major piece of this team moving forward.
As far as Karstens, that trade was made out of necessity due to the depleted minor leagues left over from the Bonifay/Littlefield era. While I agree that an “innings eater” is not a cornerstone piece, it was necessary to get us through this year. If you take Ollie and Karstens away, you have a sub standard Gorzo who needed his minor league time over the past year to get his stuff straight. You would have then thrust a Virgil Vasquez into the rotation and its not like he is lighting up Indy right now. The return in that trade netted us a 4 and 5 starter with the 4 starter having upside and the 5 being an innings eater on a team with no better option until the McClouth trade (Morton).
In conclusion, 1986 called and they loved the trade.
Um,
It’s “McLouth.”
But he doesn’t play for us any more anyways…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
I think fans still want to know whether this trade was money related, and who can blame us fans for that? Personally, I don’t think it was money related because he was only making $1.5M-$2M this year, somewhere in that range. By baseball’s standards today, that’s chump change. But we will see. NH also selected a “cheaper” player today with the Pirates No. 1 draft pick, a move seen as a way for the team to save money. I totally understand the fans’ frustration. Obviously, I’m a fan myself. If the Pirates take that money that they saved by selecting Tony Sanchez and put it towards signing elite Dominican prospect Miguel Sano, then I think that will show that Huntington had a strict draft plan and that the draft, as well as the McLouth trade, were not money driven. If they make no attempt to sign Sano, then the draft and the trade were all about the money. So before telling everybody to get over the trade, let’s wait and see what happens.
No - everyone needs to get over the trade
Look at it in a vacuum. If any other team makes this trade it is hailed as a good baseball move. We here in Pittsburgh overvalued a good player because he was the “face” of rebuilding the franchise along with Maholm and Doumit. We traded him at his highest value. There is no way in hell this was a salary dump. If you want to look at a salary dump, look back to 2001 and Jason Schmidt and then to 2003 and Aramis Ramirez. 1.5 million is transactional money in the MLB no matter what team.
If you look at the signing of Sanchez, there is nothing to get excited about in the draft. So we drafted him 20 spots early. Would you rather have taken a flyer on an overvalued high schooler? Let’s wait and see if we pick up Sano. If so, this whole argument is moot anyway.
Bottom line – there is no way all these moves are a conspiracy for the Pirates to save money. Every other thing this organization has done since the Coonley/NH regime speaks otherwise based on 1.5 years of precident. Save the conspiracy theories for JFK.
There will always be those
who will contend that Nutting was on the grassy knoll.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 10, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Look over at the trade
We got 2 pitchers with plus stuff that have great upside. Herndez has great average bat, and is called one of the best fieldeers in the minors, I liked the trade. Also, how people would call somoene a rebuilding cornerstone, look at the Padres. They are calling Adrian Gonzalez a cornerstone of the rebuilding process, but when the Padres are able to contend in 3-6 years, Adrian Won’t be as good. They call them rebuilding cornerstones if they’re young and good. We we’re keeping McLouth to help us contend while our major league roster is bad, but he yielded us good players, so I’m not complaining
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