Smizik: Pirates May Lose 110 Games in 2010
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 10, 2009 10:47 AM EDT
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PrintThere should have been nothing shocking about Dejan Kovacevic’s report that the Pirates were vigorously pursuing a trade for second baseman Freddy Sanchez, who leads the team in hitting. After all, last month the Pirates traded Nate McLouth, who was their home run and RBI leader, and he’s four years younger than Sanchez and was with a more team-friendly contract.
Still, there was a sense of surprise when the story broke at midday Thursday. The news erased all doubt as to how the Pirates are going to proceed for the foreseeable future...
It’s no longer a question of whether the Pirates can avoid losing 100 games this season, it’s a question of whether they can avoid losing 110 next season.
This is honestly one of the silliest things I've ever read. Of course anything's possible, but... the Pirates are on pace to lose 90 games this year, which isn't even close to 100. (In fact, it's better than the Pirates' usual annual win total of 67, which suggests that the trades of the team's "stars" aren't worth anywhere near the amount of fuss they've been getting.) And next year, Smizik claims the Bucs are supposed to lose 110 games, more than only two teams in the past 40 years. I'm sorry, but that's just a brain-meltingly stupid thing to say, even if you think the team is going to be horrible.
If the Pirates feel trading Sanchez, Wilson, LaRoche and anyone else is the best way to go, that’s their decision. But they’re not the only ways involved. The loyal, long-suffering Pirate fans are owed some good baseball. Since that won't be forthcoming, they at least deserve some good, honest answers.
That Bob Smizik apparently thinks the Pirates have a duty to inform the people of Pittsburgh is an irony richer than Death by Chocolate. If Smizik's so concerned about the fans' level of knowledge, perhaps he--a journalist!--could write some columns that make sense.
Let's think about what would happen if the Pirates were to announce a fire sale. Would any team offer them good value in a trade? This front office has actually been a lot more honest than the previous one, but for basic tactical reasons, there are some things it just shouldn't say. That's why we have journalists.
Also, I'm sick of all this handwringing about clueless fans. Don't like rebuilding? Tough. Buck up. The need to have vaguely adequate veteran players and field "competitive" teams are among the problems that got your team into this mess in the first place.
I hate that I've been put in the position of defending the front office this way. I'm completely open to the possibility that they're going to mess things up royally. But the outline of what they're doing is pretty much the only clear right answer for an organization as gutted as the Bucs were, and unfortunately, so much of the debate about their actions has been mind-bogglingly dumb. It's like if you needed to get from Pittsburgh to Chicago by Saturday, you might have a completely reasonable debate with your travel companions about whether you should go by plane, train or car. Here, though, a lot of fans seem to think the best way to get to Chicago by Saturday is to wait for a teleportation device to be invented. That's their prerogative, but if you let these people keep you from making actual travel plans, you'll never get where you're trying to go.
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A rebuild is the only way to go. The Pirates could lose 95 games without those guys and lose them for nothing after the season, or they could turn something into nothing and lose a few more games as a byproduct.
Smizik needs to retire already.
But Smizik DID retire!
Don’t you remember?
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 10, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I know, and then he un-retired and starting writing this blog.
It’s not a legit retirement.
by Suffering Buc on Jul 10, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember when John McCain suspended his campaign?
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 10, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Giving Smizik a blog for your paper is like nominating Palin for vice president.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 10, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sticking up for Palin but
do you think Joe “diarrhea mouth” Biden is any better?
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jul 11, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Quite a bit
Nominating Palin was a disastrous error.
For real
I remember when he “retired” a few months back or whatever. It was a good day. Then maybe a month or so later I saw he came back with his stupid blog.
I do take some solace in the fact that an old fart like him who hates new media now has to write a blog. It’s probably eating him up inside.
Charlie:
I think Smizik is simply expressing the frustration that I and other fans have felt seeing the veterans traded for much younger players who only have “potential” and not experience. When he talks about “honest answers” he may be asking management to explain in general and not in detail about their long-range plans. It would certainly appease many fans if management gave them an insight into their thought processes so the fans would feel fully informed as these trades continue to occur.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 10, 2009 11:07 AM EDT reply actions
I think the FO has given a "general" explanation as to what they are doing
They’ve said many times that they are trying to build a team that can win a championship, not one that will win 82 games. And with the current mix of veterans and young kids on their team, they cannot win a championship, so they are attempting to trade for better talent.
General explanation
I think they’ve made their general strategy crystal clear. If you ever read anything on their official MLB site, every interview with Frank Coonelly or Neal Huntington has them talking about how they need to get prospects into the system and build from youth, trade their veteran talent, etc. so that they can be competitive for several years, not just a window of one or two.
Without saying it explicitly, they imply that they want to be like the Twins in terms of the minor leagues: so deep at every position that at any point, they can trade a starter/have an injured starter/send down an underperforming starter and have a prospect come up who can play at least adequately if not just as well.
This article by Jen Langosch explains the general strategy very well, and articles like it are basically stock articles on the .com at this point.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 10, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s funny, I don’t know how much of this is just my reading between the lines, but I feel like NH has been surprisingly honest about his plans for the team. He’s talked about the 2010 problem and said there have to be some tough decisions with current major league players. He’s said almost no one is untouchable. He’s said they need to collect talent at all levels from all available sources. He’s talked about Latin America and the draft, but he’s also said in as many words that if we want to get high minors talent, we have to trade for it.
While executives talk a lot and aren’t always very forthcoming, NH has followed through on every part of his stated plan mentioned above. Honestly, I’d think the org’s plan would be in some way proprietary, but oddly enough, it doesn’t seem to matter that he’s told the whole world what he plans to do – possibly because it takes more patience to execute successfully than a lot of teams have. As a fan, seeing him state his plan (which seems to make sense to me) and largely follow through with it gives me faith that he’ll continue the good work he began until it is completed, which is enough for me for the time being and makes me glad that he can be as forthcoming with the fans as he has been.
Assuming that giving fans hope is one of his aims in revealing “the plan”, I think that any more honesty on his part would become counter-productive. Getting more specific about the players he was shopping and targeting would be inappropriate and negatively affect the Pirates’ trading opportunities, while not actually making the fans any happier. If anything, having ambiguity helps things for unhappy fans, even if it’s completely obvious what’s going on. If the upset fans knew the totality of his plans, they might be a lot more upset.
“I’m cheap? You think I’m CHEAP? How could you say that to me? I can’t believe this. How could you say that to me? "
“You asked me to.”
“You should have lied.”
charity standing orders
Well said...
Charlie, you’re a poet and a scholar.
by DL Da Burghcast on Itunes on Jul 10, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions
Amen to that last paragraph
I’ve felt seriously exasperated at times in the last month.
http://www.whygavs.com
http://mlb.fanhouse.com
Rebuild?
I’m just tired of hearing how the Pirates are constantly rebuilding. When, in the past decade have we actually tried to rebuild? most trades and signings that were made were independant of each other and not part of a common goal of getting younger and deeper for the future. DL would make one trade for good young talent (bay and perez), then go and sign a vetern way past his prime and block a player who may or may not have developed into a servicable major leaguer.
The new regime actually has a plan, and all these trades that are being made are going towards a common goal of replenishing the minor league system and building a team to MAKE THE PLAYOFFS on a consistant basis, not a 1 year run at .500 that so many “fans” would love to see.
100% agree
This is my pet peave.
It replaces people not spelling McLouth’s name right when claiming “he was our best player” and “how can we trade him ?!?!”.
Hey
It could be worse….we could be Reds fans. They have NO winners in that city. At least we have the Steelers and Pens. SIGH I know, it doesn’t change the fact that the only option we have now is to be patient and wait this new process out.
"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)
That’s true. The biggest excitement in Cincinnati in the past few years was seeing the Bearcats win the weakest Big East division I’ve seen in a long time. Then they proceeded to get slaughtered in their bowl game.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 10, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Worst. Smizik rant. Ever
Smizik is only fueling the fire to those wahoos over there.
He needs to say retired and take Gene Collier along
Those 2 can have a Shawshank Redemption moment down in Mexico for all I care.
by BadAndy on Jul 10, 2009 11:42 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Agree 100%
I’m getting damn sick and tired of Collier as well. Collier needs to “retire”, just without the coming back with a blog thing.
I guess I only really read him during Pirates season
Which is why I’m getting angry again. I don’t bother reading any of the Post Gazette’s Steelers news. Not that there is anything wrong with Ed Buchette, there certainly is not, but NFL coverage is just so over saturated already that I don’t need to get it from the PG.
He’s hilarious as long as he avoids sports. He’s one of my favorite guests on the WDVE morning show (Steve Blass is also unexpectedly hilarious when they have him on) until they decide to talk about the Pirates.
Thats a good point
I have heard him on the radio and he was ok. My buddy does stand up and if I remember correctly he told me that Collier moonlights as a comedian as well.
Charlie
You make a lot of good points. As a journalist, Smizik is a joke.
This isn’t a new issue, but DL left the team in shambles at the major and minor league levels. It’s not going to be the typical five-year rebuilding plan.
That reality has led the front office to make unpopular choices.
The only thing I feel management owes the fans is to open the books. I paid for the stadium. I’m tired of the front office claiming that it’s breaking even but not opening the books. I can’t believe the city was dumb enough to build a stadium and not insist on that.
I suspect, along the lines of the Fortune estimates, that the Nutting family has made enormous profits as the minority and then majority owners.
Smizik is a jackass… its people like him that wanna ruin the pirates organization… lol yea im only 19 yrs old and i realize how good a job huntington is doing and all these old time fans are all upset if we lose Wilson, LaRoche, Sanchez…the fact is there not that good they werent good enough when bay, nady and Mclouth were here there not good enough now….yes like any fan i want this team to win, you know i never seen a winning season well when i was 2 but i couldnt remember it….but the fact is i know the only way for this team to win is to trade this guys away and acquire as much young talent as possible… its a joke how these people know nothing about baseball… half of these fans just know the people on the pirates and get upset when we trade a name away they know not for another name they dont.
I’ve liked some of Smizik’s recent blogs and he has made some good points in other blogs, but this is terrible. This is the first piece I’ve read of his that I had no clue why he was writing it. This whole piece was irrational and stupid. The part that most bothered me about this whole rant was that he said the Pirates aren’t going to win next year, they aren’t going to win in 2011, and they aren’t going to win in 2012. How does he know? Did he look into his crystal ball and figure that out? More than likely, we aren’t going to be winning next year, but I feel good about 2011 and surely 2012. By then, it will be three and four years into the true rebuilding process (since NH/Coonelly took over) and this team will look entirely different. The only starters that will still be starting, barring a trade, in 2011 and 2012 are Andy LaRoche, Andrew McCutchen and maybe Ryan Doumit. A new wave of talent and faces will be entrenched in Pittsburgh, and it will make for an exciting team. If we aren’t winning by 2012 and have shown no signs of turning it around, then you can throw your hands in the air, wonder what in the world management is doing, lose all hope and go on a rant like this. But to downgrade the efforts of this front office and to hint to 110-loss seasons in only its second year on the job is pathetic. You can do better, Bob. A lot better.
charlie, why should smizik force you to defend the FO
Your words. There’s all kinds of crazy out on the internet; not all of it requires a response. You’ve been very even handed with the FO, as far as I’m concerned – lauding some moves, scratching your head at others.
I doubt there are more than a handful, if that, among your regular readers who would put much stock in smizik’s baseball acumen. As late as 2004, he was referring to Littlefield as “a smart baseball man” despite all evidence to the contrary.
And, as has been written above, NH and FC have been very forthcoming, both in word and deed. How can it be any surprise to anyone what they are trying to accomplish.
As WTM pointed out in another thread, you can’t judge NH or the FO on one trade, but on the body of work. IMO, Huntington fell short on the Bay trade, but he’s made up for it by getting high upside players for the likes of McLouth and Nyjer Morgan.
If he can turn Freddy for some high upside talent, then I’ll be fine with it. And I’m a huge Freddy fan, and have defended him many times.
To take it one step further,
saying he “fell short” on the Bay trade in isolation is jumping the gun a little. And even if none of the players we got in return turn out to be stars, it’s tough to just flat out say NH lost on the deal. Bay simply had to go at some point or he would walk for nothing. Unless we know for a fact there was another offer on the table that would have turned out better, I don’t see how we can justify being overly critical.
I wasn't trying to re-hash the Bay trade
you can argue both sides of it, as has been done here to the enth degree. My point was, even if you take the position (as I do) that we didn’t get a solid return for our best asset, you have to admit that NH has made up for it by getting terrific potential value in return for lesser players than Bay (Milledge for Morgan – I mean, come on). I’ve come to love NH’s fearlessness and resolve; I don’t like seeing my favorite players go out the door, but I’ve gained a lot of trust in his abilities to make deals (and draft). Like Charlie said, it may not work out, but it sure seems like it’s pointed the right way.
To say it more concisely, I’ve gone from an NH skeptic to an NH admirer.
I know what you're saying
All I meant to illustrate is that while judging the FO on its complete body of work, one should be careful of giving them a red X on the Bay trade.
Also, I think the Bay trade looked better when it when down than the Morgan/Burnett trade. And that’s not meant to imply that I dislike the Morgan/Burnett deal. It’s always easier to analyze a deal a little further down the line.
Enough already! I'm sorry you don't get it!
Trade Brian Giles? I’m done with the Pirates!
Trade Xavier Nady? I’m done with the Pirates!
Trade Jason Bay? I’m done with the Pirates!
Trade Nate McLouth? I’m done with the Pirates!
Trade Nyjer Morgan? I’m done with the Pirates!
Good, shut up and be done with the Pirates already. I’m done with you!
If you can’t distinguish the difference between what this front office is doing compared to what has happened in the past you need to get a clue. You can’t have it both ways, you can’t want to have a winning team and keep the players who are not going to help you win. Striving for .500 or 82 wins is why this team is in the mess it is in. It’s why we signed guys like Derek Bell and Pat Mears and traded for Matt Morris. Sure, I’m sick of cheering for a losing team and I hate to see “good guys” like Nate and Freddy wind up on other teams, but if it means that I can see the Buccos play games in October then I am all for it. I’m looking forward to cheering for Cutch, P.Alvaraz, T.Sanchez, C.Morton, J.Tabata, Milledge, Gorkys, B.Lincoln, etc. I am 100% behind the future of the Pittsburgh Pirates!
by Brakeman8 on Jul 10, 2009 1:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
YOU get a clue, Pal!
12 games below .500 going into the AS break, and on track for a record 18th losing season. When your vaunted “FO” makes moves, it’s supposed to improve the team, e.g., better won/lost record, being able to compete and BEAT bums like Milwaukee, Houston, and Cincinatti instead of being dead last. GET A CLUE-this FO hasn’t got one, and look where we stand. RESULTS is what it’s about, not coulda-shoulda-woulda whisling in the dark. GET REAL!
I’ve hung around bucsdugout for probably a year and half now but I never commented. Today seemed like a good day to jump in the pool.
First off Smizik is really foolish, my brother and I read his columns, and now blog, strictly for comic relief. I don’t even know where the begin with him, this article is pure awesomeness. It seems like all he’s good for is pandering to the yinzer fans.
In regards to trading Sanchez. I’ve been a huge Freddy fan for years, I like the way he plays; he definitely makes the Pirates a better team. However my main concern with him is how is he going to age. I asked over at the Post Gazette blog once about his club foot, I never did get anyone to answer. Is that going to affect his durability and his production as he enters his decline years? He is turning 32 this off season and has injuries in the past, (I think Charlie mentioned his injury history recently in a post.) I’d hate to see the Pirates hang onto him too long, sign him to extension and watch his production and value plummet.
This is one of my big pet peeves with the Anti-Front Office crowd. In so many discussions about the Pirates, no one ever seems takes into consideration how players are going to decline. I hang out at the PBC blog more than I probably should and it seems like posters there think that Pirates players are never going to drop off in their production.
Has it been reported yet whether Doumit is coming back for this weekend’s series against the Phillies?
Dejan says No
Or at least not for tonight. He seems to think the open roster spot is being held for a 2B.
However, he also says Doumit didn’t travel with Indy to their next series. So that’s kind of weird.
Actually, maybe those 2 go together – if Freddy can start tonight and is fine, then Doumit joins the club tomorrow; if Freddy goes down again, then we need a 2B to make it to the Break.
One point in favor of Smizik
Sometimes, journalists go with stories that will sell, rather than make the right points, or bring out the whole picture. The truth is that rebuilding a club like the Pirates with what was a hopelessly depleted farm will take years- even my most optimistic guesses wouldnt have them competing before 2011, although I’ll still watch games next year, hoping the Pirates unearth a couple of stars, or a bunch of players have career years at the same time!
It’s understandable though that people want to see results right now, and are more than happy to trash the FO, teh Pirates and even baseball in general. Most of those people would lap up this kind of a column, and rant about McLouth being traded or potential trades.
If Smizik is targeting those people to make his column popular, I guess thats an old newspaper trick- sensationalize stories, etc…
“Sometimes, journalists go with stories that will sell, rather than make the right points, or bring out the whole picture. "
So what you’re saying is, Bob Smizik is a troll.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 10, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Shane Victorino
Comedy?
Don’t apply for a job at the Onion or Cracked, pal.
And pretty shitty photshoppage, too.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 10, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Far be it from me
To defend Smizik, but:
100 games this year: of course we’re on pace for a better final than ‘08; we were on a better pace than ’08 at this point in ’08 as well. Even if none of the vets are traded, you’re still left with a pretty pathetic OF for half the season. If the vets go, and Bixler is at SS, Vazquez at 2B, and Pearce or Jones at 1B, why wouldn’t you expect that team to finish 24-55? That’s an awful, awful team, with 2 legit ML players, 2 replacement players, and 4 bums (and decent, but D-dependent, pitching). If we only manage to trade Freddy, then I’m sure we manage 65 wins. Otherwise….
110 games next year: as you say, that’s historically bad, and would require a perfect storm. Basically it comes down to who plays SS, 2B, and the corner OF. Bixler hurts you in the field and at the plate. Shelby Ford is maybe replacement level, but Freddy is well above replacement, so you’re hurt there. If Milledge comes through and Moss keeps being Moss, then the OF takes care of itself, and you’re back to a run-of-the-mill bad team. But if Milledge busts (esp. on D) and Moss’ D comes back to earth (the arm is obvs. legit, but I’m skeptical the the guy is really a +14 UZR-150, or whatever his 2009 is so far), then you’ve got 1 great OF and 2 bums. For 162 games. Oof.
BTW, how do you like Duke’s pitching with that defense behind him? Egad.
Maybe NH finds a cheap glove for SS in 2010, in which case 110 vanishes, and even 100 losses would take a lot. But this is a bad team with a good defense and both Jack and Freddy having good (by their respective standards) offensive years. Turn those positions into minuses, and watch the Ls pile up.
about good ol' bob
what i don’t understand about Bob and is incoherent babbling is that he never offers a solution…what would he want them to do…what else can they do…unfortunately this is the only way to make the buccos competitive for the future…oh yeah they could have gotten CC and TEX last year but the yankees just barely out-bid the buccos…give me a break
by SHOOTFOR2010 on Jul 10, 2009 2:23 PM EDT reply actions
He doesn't claim a solution
He says it’s not his job. Anyway, I believe that it’s his stated position that the Bucs will never win again, so there’s no possible solution.
The Pirates are the Kobayashi Maru (sp?) of baseball teams.
One thing on honesty
I think that a lot of people have trouble crediting NH with honesty because of the Nate thing. To call a guy a building block in Spring Training and trade him before May is out doesn’t strike most people as honest.
Now, I believe NH that he wasn’t shopping Nate (which would have been dishonest, whatever its merits) and that he thought it was an offer he couldn’t refuse. But it was, on the face of it, a bait-and-switch with the fans. They were promised a Broadway show*, and NH is assuring them that the experimental theater he signed up instead will be much more rewarding. It gets under the skin.
- caveat emptor and the rest; I’m not here to debate the merits of Nate, I’m talking about NH’s statements and representations to the public
While I don’t disagree with the move, I do agree with you that the Nate trade was VERY unexpected and that fans are pretty justified in being upset about it. I mean, we were all shocked by it: trading a young, good, extremely likeable guy who was under contract for 4 years. I think a lot of fans were okay with the idea that 2009 was lost, but that trade basically said that 2010 is lost as well. Many people around here have long said that 2012 was the target date, but that’s a long time to wait even for fairly devoted fans who don’t spend hours every day perusing the minor league box scores. On top of that, a lot of fans knew that Bay, Nady, Wilson, Sanchez, LaRoche, etc were probably going to get traded or leave in the near future, but McLouth was a guy they could like, figuring that he’d be around for a good while. It always hurts more when you don’t see the punch coming.
I kind of like the metaphor of the Broadway show vs. experimental theatre. It’s Ironman vs. Magnolia. Just cause something is better, doesn’t mean everyone will see it that way or take the time to understand it, when it’s a lot easier to dismiss it.
charity standing orders
2012 is the target date-yeah to bury th Pirates once and for all..
Good God, do some of you people actually look at what you’re writing and get the implications-21 years of losing, mediocre baseball in Pittsburgh before we can HOPE for a winner. Yuns been drinking Ohia River water, or what? We could have had Jimmy Leyland back, but geniuses like like Littlefield couldn’t make it happen. This management and ownership is a joke. Until we get competent people in both areas, expect nothing to change. Look at all the moves they’ve made, and where are we-12 games south of .500 before the All-Star break and looking at 18 consecutive losing season-Good God-enough already. It’s broke, these clueless clowns can’t fix it. Time to flush ’em all and start over.
So
do you advocate ‘restarting’ by firing the GM & everyone below him every 2 years?
NH is not DL.
NH has been on the job for less than 2 years.
NH is rebuilding the farm system.
NH is working to build a perennial contender.
That can’t happen instantly… not with the mess that was left after DL.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Off topic a bit
Could the Pirates pull one of the Giants’ top 10 as part of a package for Freddy? I’m thinking of Scott Barnes.
Bad Charlie
Not for the comments – they were great. But I’ve steadfastly avoided Smizik’s garbage “blog” (why, why did the P-G let him come back in ANY form?) until you put it front and center.
In two years, we’ll know if this front office is as stupid as the last one. My bet is no, but it’s impossible to say until then.
FYI I saw Smizik in the Club seats about two weeks ago with ice cream dribbling down his chin. Seriously.
Smizik
is an idiot. He has zero knowledge of sports even though he writes about them.
What the Pirates are doing is the only option. Strip this organization down and start from scratch. The only players that should be left from the Littlefield regime are McCutch and Lincoln. Everything else goes.
The problem is…this is what should have been done 17 years ago. This is the only way a small market team competes and it is proven effective.
WE ARE.......PENN STATE!
Smizik has predictably reverted to (negative) type.
The scary thing is that he almost jumped on board and started to make sense of the rebuild situation.
On the other side of the Bucco stratosphere Jen Langosch has a headline on the official site that celebrates the return of Donnie Veal.
‘The Pirates are expecting to receive a big lift from the return of reliever Donnie Veal, and you can watch on MLB.TV to see how he performs tonight at 7:05 p.m. ET vs. the Phillies.’
I’m a Veal sympathizer but the notion that he will help the team is just as ridiculous as Smizik’s 110 losses next season.
by RDV across the sea on Jul 10, 2009 4:49 PM EDT reply actions
Veal the Savior
A friend just e-mailed me the same thing – are things really THIS bad? Our savior has pitched six major league innings?
RobinZone
JR has stated, it seems (via Dejan’s blog) that RobinZone will be seeing time at 1st, 2nd & 3rd in hopes of getting him back up to Pittsburgh because they “like his bat”.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
ROFL
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 10, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Why is it wrong to say that the 2009 and 2010 Pirates...
are going to stink?? I mean…even Captain Obvious knows that.
Why make proclaimations that the FO HAS NOT given up on 2009 (and/or 2010) when their actions say the complete opposite?? It does not take a rocket scientist to go back to almost any time from January through May to find quotes from the FO about contending (or not blowing up the team) this year and next. Just say that you are improving the team for the long run…and not mention competing.
Bay trade…future…not now.
Nady trade…future…not now.
McLouth trade…way in the future…not now.
Hinske trade…future (or salary dump, depending on point of view)…not now.
Morgan trade…future…not now.
The trades for the backup catchers are the only ones that could even be considered near term solutions.
I understand…and agree with building the system…it’s necessary…even to the point of giving up current pieces like Nate. But the Pirates FO…in my opinion…made a large PR mistake (not necessarily talent mistake) in basically indicating that Nate was traded to bring up Cutch…when Cutch and Nate easily could have played in the same OF. I will be curious to see the spin that is put on the 2009 team if 3/4 of the starting infield is traded in the next 3 weeks…especially if the return is all lower level prospects. When you trade over half of your starting lineup for prospects…I’d say that’s pretty much a white flag of surrender.
While the execution of moves to improve the system…and eventually…improve the major league team…appears to be reasonable…the PR statements surrounding these moves have left a lot to be desired. A lot that is getting said should have been left unsaid. A lot of BS detectors have been going off in the last month or two…and I think it will be reflected in attendance numbers in the near future. And good luck to the Pirates sales staff in selling 2010 season tickets. Barring a MAJOR acquisition or two…it’s gonna be a real tough sell. 2011…maybe a little better…but the next 15 months are gonna be rough.
Yeah, the next 15 months are going to be rough, but Smizik said we wouldn’t be winning in 2011 or 2012. Like I said earlier, 2011 and 2012 will be three and four years into the rebuilding process and I could definitely see us having a Rays-like tranformation. For him to come out and say, “This team isn’t going win now and it’s not going to win three and four years from now” is stupid. He has no idea, as do any of us, what this team is going look like in 2011, 2012 and the years after. I’m not saying that we are definitely going to be a contending team by 2011 or 2012 and have that Rays-like transformation because that, also, wouldn’t be very smart, but it won’t be nearly as bad as it is now. We all know that this year and next year are going to be pretty ugly, but that also will have been two more seasons for our best prospects (aka the players that are going to be a part of the next winning team in Pittsburgh) to mature, develop and grow towards being the productive Major League ball players that fans and the organization expect them to be. I really think you’ll start seeing this team and this franchise turn the corner in 2011, although I could be wrong.
The fans have a right to be frustrated...
…but not necessarily for the reasons guys like Smizik and other ill-informed fans complain about. Huntington and the FO have been very forthright about their rebuilding plans, and I think they definitely have the right idea, but their execution has oscillated between head-scratching and terrible. I have serious questions as to whether the Pirates have even decent talent evaluators.
What I’m trying to say is, they should absolutely be trading guys like McLouth, Bay, Nady, etc… but they’re trading them for the wrong players and at the wrong time. It’s really, really sad that they’ve traded so many players and have yet to get a single top prospect in return. Jason Bay is the best chip the Pirates had. Unfortunately, the Bay trade is truly atrocious and does not ring true with Huntington’s stated goals – they received two light-to-decent hitting guys at corner spots where impact bats are needed, and a failed reliever. Even worse, they were former top prospects, now graduated, with ceilings nowhere near what had originally been projected for them. And even worse, their primes will come during the rebuilding years, meaning they will be worthless in the long run.
The McLouth trade… well, I agreed completely with trading McLouth, but it seemed very rushed. How they traded him without receiving ANY of the Braves’ top three prospects is beyond me. Quantity does not equal quality. I’m not sure NH understands that. Could they have held on to Nate for a better package? I’m not sure, but I’m guessing they could have. NH himself admitted that he was bowled over by the Braves’ offer… this distresses me the most.
Lastly, the Nady trade. Traded at the right time… once again for the wrong players. Word is they had the choice between Phil Coke/George Kontos and Ross Ohlendorf/Daniel McCutchen. Ollie has been decent filler, but the first package undoubtedly has higher upside.
I do approve of the Morgan-Milledge swap, for sure.
Well… anyways, this is getting longwinded. Bottom line – they’re lost a really good crop of players without getting any top prospects in return. That’s really unfortunate.
Adam, you took the words out of my mouth
For a change the FO does seem to uderstand the situation and is being as honest with the fans as possible…
That being said, I agree, do these guys have a clue how to evaluate talent? This catcher they took in the draft this year: by all accounts i’ve heard was a real stretch with the 4th pick in the entire draft. Sounds like they could have had him a couple rounds lower. Anybody know different?
From what I've heard
Sanchez was going late 1st round at the latest.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
succos
as long as adam laroche is go idc care anymore maybe they will have a winning team by the time im 50 and im going to be 24 at when hockey starts again
stop bashing the front office!
if i were the bucs GM id be doing the same thing! if you wouldnt then your just plain stupid and dont understand the way baseball works when you cant afford to field a $200 million dollar team! you cant try to sign the great players in free agency so you must build a team through the draft and making smart trades. Littlefield and his people didnt understand that, they tried to build a team with has beens and never-was players for way too much money. the right way to build a team is the way seattle has right now or florida does every year. if you make the right trades at the right time then you will be playing in october. who wants a .500 season? if the steelers go .500 is anyone happy? NO! if the pens go .500 is anyone happy? no one wants a mediocre team!!! we want a championship team! and thats what NH and his boys are trying to accomplish through trades and draft. the perfect example is right here in our own city. THE PENGUINS! they built a team and now they are the champs! give NH a chance! bay, nady, mclouth, and even sanchez and adam wont be part of a winning team in the burgh! so why should we keep them? just so we mite be able to accomplish .500? If neal keeps making good, smart trades, then you will one day be watching the pirates in october!!! its a graunteed formula for success, works everytime. you will all see. and those of you who have no faith will not be invited to come celebrate a championship bucs team! be a true fan and support them.
as for smizik’s comments, he should just go away already, his columns were always stupid anyways, and i personally feel that we may not even lose 90 games next season.
No formula...
guarantees success. No formula works every time. If it did…everyone would adopt it. You assume that NH is a perfect talent evaluator…which I do not necessarily agree with.
At some point…talent needs to stay in Pittsburgh…or it becomes a never-ending cycle of develop and trade. No use having the Pirates do the work to develop players for other teams. The Pirates need to benefit from some of the development.
Having faith in a team is great…having blind faith in a team only leads to disappointment.
So tell me…when do the Pirates start keeping some of the talent to start building this championship team?? Who on the current roster stays?? From all I’ve seen…all most of you want to keep is Cutch. Exactly where are you going to get the other 7 starting position players?? Most of them are not currently in our system…unless you expect every high draftee at Class A and below to succeed…which NEVER happens in ANY system.
You related to Huntington?
“If neal keeps making good, smart trades, then you will one day be watching the pirates in october!!!” Foe God’s sake, put down the crack-pipe! Show me some of these “smart trades.” I haven’t seen any. And we’re 12 games below .500 and on track for an 18th losing season-a record to be sure, but not the kind REAL Pirates fans want or will tolerate. Huntington is just as clueless as the guys who came before him, and getting rid of our stars is STUPID, unless we get great players who are about to become stars. Face it, Pittsburgh is broke, and the current management and ownership can’t fix it. Otherwise things would be getting better-THEY’RE NOT, based on the won/loss record. The Buccos are going nowhere, and I’m tired of waiting for these incompetents to turn it around.
Most of the trades have been smart
getting rid of guys at their peak value for the guys that’ll be around in a couple of years when he’s building towards.
The guys he’s traded… stars in Pittsburgh at that time, stars elsewhere as soon as they hit FA.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
2010?
2010? Don’t tell me I slept through 2009. Let’s stay in the today. Sure, Pitts likely not gonna go
past .500 ball this year. Didn’t really expect ‘em to. And, unlike poker, you can’t bluff your way
to winning. So if’en you’er not winning with what you got TOSS IN your hand and try, try again.
Obtaining winning talent in baseball is such a crap shoot even in the richest environments.
Isn’t that right, New Yorkers?
We’re getting some studs down in the minors and with some favorable trade winds blown our
way we’ll right this ship and the JOLLY RODGERS will be flying high once again!
Pirate Prince Bob...No explanation should be necessary!
by Pirate Prince Bob on Jul 11, 2009 7:19 AM EDT reply actions
I applaud your enthusiasm...
however…I critique your eyesight. We do not have a bunch (or even some) of “studs” in the minors. More like a couple of guys at each level (except AAA) that MIGHT BECOME studs. Unless you count 12 games as a significant sample size (Sanchez)…the ONLY players that have put up “stud” numbers were Brad Lincoln during his time in Altoona…and Rudy Owens at WV.
Please point out to me where our “studs” are at. If we have them…they aren’t performing like “studs”.
Smizik is almost as ridiculous as The Bucs ownership and management!
I love to read nonsense like "The Bucs FO is on the right track, they just have made bad trade decisions with bad timing, blah, blah, blah, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Without many exceptions, the players the Pirates have traded away have become stars, and all-stars, with other better managed, better run teams. Face it, the Pirates manangement and ownership is incompetent, that’s why the Bucs are now 12 games below .500, and on their way to another humiliating, record breaking losing season. It’s broke, it don’t work, and the ownership and managemnt of this team don’t get it and never will. They’ve traded away great players for nothing and have no improvement to show for it, bottom line. The team is dying, and these bozos just don’t get it, and can’t fix it.
I don't know.
There are days where I get excited about a few things, such as the trade for Milledge. And I realize that the Pirates were losing 90+ games a year with Bay, Nady, Sanchez, McLouth and Marte on the roster, so they’re not exactly breaking up the 72 Pirates here. Probably more like the 52 Pirates…
But it seems like most other days, things just aren’t getting better. Sure, the minor leagues has more than just Andrew McCutchen, Neil Walker and Brad Lincoln. Compared to two years ago, the minor leagues are a lot more interesting. But Pedro Alvarez is striking out way too much. Brad Lincoln might make a good September call-up. Plus there’s Gorkys and Tabata in AA. But most of the significant talent is in the lower minors, meaning that things might not get a whole lot better for 4 or 5 years and that seems really depressing….
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