Dejan continues to disappoint me. He panders to the jokers who comment on his blog – people who still can’t understand why the Pirates aren’t buyers at the deadline. People who think that if we’d just kept the Bay/McLouth/Nady OF together, we’d be contending. People who refuse to draw a line between NH and Littlefield. He is approaching “hack” status.

However, with all of that being said, it’s not entirely accurate to say that the trades you mention are not motivated by money. Every one of them was motivated by money, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Bay may not have been dealt because of any immediate financial concerns, but he was dealt because he would eventually be too expensive. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all.

The question is not whether the Pirates are making deals based on financial considerations. The question is: What are you getting for your money? This year’s team will have a record comparable to last year’s team. So, what was that OF of last year really bringing us? How much were we supposed to spend on a 70 win team?

As you note, the current management team has given us no reason to doubt them. They have a plan, they’re sticking to it. People who can’t see that are yinzers who still use batting average as their one and only indicator of a player’s performance. I have given up on such people. They will never get it.

But let’s be honest: This is all about money. It’s about the front office building a sustainable product that is affordable and competitive. The latter part of that equation was missing in recent years, but Nutting finally got sick of getting laughed at…thank God.

if his “motvated by money” remark was meant in the sense that Kevin describes above, whether he thinks the FO just doesn’t care about winning as long as the money rolls in or something else.

I suspect that sports writers often have egos almost as fragile as those of baseball players themselves. They feel slighted in some way by management, perhaps in a denied interview request, and they hit back in they percieve to me the most effective way possible.

Every move should be about money. The long term prospects of this organization continuing into a third decade of losing baseball is seriously bad for the bottom line and the health of the franchise. Some Pirate fans sound like they want another Howard Baldwin hemoraging red to the brink of insolvency.

Let’s not forget it was a minor miracle that the Pens won the Cup for Pittsburgh and not Ontario or KC. This organization is not a vanity project for some owner willing to eat whatever costs in the name of vanity or civic pride. Spend money when there’s some hope of getting results. In the meantime build hope (the right way).

that it would be motviated by money. That is all the proof anyone needs.

In the piece, Smizik actually argues that a deal probably wouldn’t be financially motivated, conceding that we need to give Huntington the benefit of the doubt with this awful situation.

Very out of character for DK, and disappointing.

DK stated that it was purely his opinion.

“The view from here,” he called it. Blogs are meant to be a platform for opinions. If this was a beat article, there’s not a snowball’s chance he says that.

i hated him since he was on the subway nightly sports call 3 years ago and said the PENGUINS were a pathetic team and he was telling everyone the whole year they were not that good because they lost like 5 in a row and wouldnt make the playoffs and it would be a long time for them to be any good…hes typical little baby rant… but that year the pens did make the playoffs for the first time since 2001 and then the next 2 yrs back to back cup final appearances! GOOD JOB DEJAN give up on this sports thing! maby try politics?

if the Pirates “real intent” is to salary dump Freddy?

That’s like tippin your poker hand before the cards are laid on the table.

We NEED prospects in return here!

If a GM (like Sabean) is stupid enough to pay $8 Million for Freddy that’s fine by me.

A smart GM would ask the Pirates to pay half.

I don’t understand how someone can critisize something that hasn’t happened. If we get a great return for him then even if they save money it can still a good baseball move solely motivated by improving for the future.

Having actual free time these three days to read stuff — and being a regular reader of Charlie’s work — I feel obligated to respond here.
The comment about Sanchez/money was vague mostly because, to be honest, I am writing something for this coming Sunday on that topic that will substantiate it. But I can certainly see, in looking at it, how it appears to be some shot out of the dark.
The short version is this: The Pirates’ front office looks ahead to 2010 and sees a roster in which the only two players making any significant money will be their two middle infielders. Neal Huntington himself has openly stated that he wonders if spending $16 million there is the best investment the team can make. At the same time, all concerned agree that there is no imminent help at either position and that, if money were not a factor, they would welcome keeping both players.
If the Pirates are successful in getting a better baseball return for Sanchez than Sanchez himself at this age, that is why I wrote “almost surely.” But that scenario, based on other trades, including those made by the Pirates, seems way unlikely. Look at the return for Nate McLouth, even with his age and years of control, and picture what Sanchez will get.
Add all that up and, projecting ahead, I find it hard to envision how a trade for Sanchez would represent anything other than moving money.
(There goes my Sunday piece.)

what’s ironic is that the approach advocated by many people on this site (ie: trading veterans for prospects) dovetails nicely with a frugal owner looking to line his pockets… trading xavier nady and damaso marte for a bucket of young players may have been a wise move to make the pirates a better team a few years down the road, but it also saves a bunch of cash… as outsiders, how can we tell what the real motivation is? is it acceptable if both considerations apply? and what if the franchise is doing the right thing for the wrong reasons?

just because you’re singing the same tune doesn’t mean you have the same intent…

looks as if it’s going to be about 40% lower (nearer 30M) next year. That assumes Freddy, Jack and Adam are no longer on the roster. With the same level of revenue as this year…that’s gonna be quite a chunk of money in the owners pockets.

Unless…of course…the revenue sharing income drops quite a bit. And I thought that was supposed to be the case with the new stadiums for the Yankees and Mets. I vaguely remember that they were supposed to be able to write off quite a bit of their revenue sharing expenditures due to the new stadia. I could be wrong about that however.

I am torn between the issue I see both ways I think the hinske trade was a salary dump but do we need hinske or prospects to follow managements plans of rebuilding. I must say though maybe the only trade I disagree with was mclouth but if gorkeys is what they say he is and morton is going to be good, then locke who knows ill love it. If sanchez gets traded I hope EY Jr is involved I watched him in the futures game and he looks like someone that we could have 1 2 punch with cutch.

Yes, it was a salary dump with Hinske. The Pirates put him on revocable waivers and no one claimed him. The Yanks said they wouldn’t make the deal without the $s. The prospects aren’t highly regarded.

It may be only a $400,000 dump. But it was a smart $400,000 dump. It’s not like Hinske would have led the charge for a wildcard birth.

Second, yes, the Pirates’ profit will increase next year without Wilson, Sanchez and LaRoche. No question. The key is how the money is spent.

Does it go into international signings and the draft? Or does it go into the Nutting family coffers?

Finally, I like DK. But he needs to stop the “I don’t offer opinions” nonsense. Of course, he does. I wonder if he’s trying to be Bouchette with his blog and chats.

We traded hinske to the yanks for 2 minor leaguers and cash considerations hinske was making 1.5 million just put it out there I’m not saying it was I’m not saying it isn’t. Does anyone know how much we gave them or was that not available? Thanks

half the remaining $800K, so $400K.

Thanks for clearing that hinske thing up I was wondering but makes perfect sense thanks, I see now.

I appreciate that, DK.

I was pretty surprised at the first half of these comments. DK works hard to bring a constant stream of useful information regarding the Pirates to his loyal readers and, I think, has bought some credibility with that. To insinuate that he is in the pocket of the team or the blog respondents is laughable.

Incidentally, who cares if the Pirates dump salary? They are targeting some nebulous future date for producing a steady stream of quality talent and the only way to substantiate claims like that is to acquire prospects. Assuming the pool of funds is finite and that the team will spend money when it makes sense, my hope is that suffering 2 years @ $30M will allow 2 future years @ $70M.

The biggest concern I would have at trading your only two viable middle infielders is the damage it could do to the development of the pitching staff. From that perspective, $15-16M is probably a good investment. The LaRoche salary, along with big money for players like Grabow, Snell, etc. is extraneous and probably should be dumped if possible while they build their farm.

The problem as I see it, is that saying a trade is a “salary dump”, or even saying something as benign as “it surely will be about money”, immediately conjurs up a negative connotation. Look at how vehemently we all responded to the comment DK offered.

Now, the reality surely is that a trade can still be a good trade even if it’s motivated in part by salary. But we’re all still thinking about deals like Aramis Ramirez. Now THAT was a salary dump. If we gave Freddy away and got nothing of value in return, THAT would be a salary dump.

I don’t see a trade like that coming from this front office, though. I have a hard time seeing them just jettison Freddy for no value.

Not sure how his performance bonus is structured, but by reaching it midway through the season (All Star selection) rather than plate appeances, are the Pirates obligated to pick up the $2mil or would the receiving team? Tha would weigh heavily in any team dealing for Sanchez.

  I don’t have much of a problem with the Pirates dumping salary. We’re so quick to judge a trade a success or failure based on early results — the McLouth deal’s a success in part because Cutch hit well right away; the Bay trade is a failure even though Morris is in the minors. So as someone said earlier, I’d at least like to see who we get for Sanchez first.
  We’re also quick to give credit to the Pirates for doing things they should have done a long time ago — attempting to develop players in Latin America, hiring a sentient being as general manager.
  But I never read anyone saying he thinks the Pirates will be able keep any of these young players they’re developing, even though other teams have managed to. When they start signing the McCutcheons and Alavarezes and Lincolns to long-term deals before arbitration, I’ll start believing the owners aren’t just lining their pockets.

of course its a salary dump……terible ownership +bad baseball front office people + no salary cap = profits for the nuttings

Cheers to DK for spending part of his day off hanging out on the Bucs Dugout message board. It kinda reminds me of when I spent my Memorial Day weekend in 2001 hanging out on the Buzz Poets Fan Forum discussing the merits of their latest single, “Pretzel Sex.”

Actually… I doubt the two previous examples have anything in common at all… I guess I just wanted an excuse to reference Ronald Reagan and Tripper in the same post.

Milledge playing for Lynchburg tonight (and I’m guessing the next 2 nights). Getting some needed AB while Indy is on it’s ASB.

It should primarily be about the return the Pirates get, but they should be dumping every piece of deadweight they have so that they can invest heavily in the draft/international FA market. I hate to say it, but the Pirates are a good 4-6 years from being a truly competitive team, possibly more. The years of failure that netted some really great draft pick positions sadly yielded terrible results because of inept management, but those days are long gone (hopefully). Be terrible this year, and next year, and reap the rewards. It’s a race to Bryce Harper at this point.

I still weep when I think of the Matt Morris trade and how much it likely set the Pirates back. 10 freakin’ million dollars. Think of how many signability guys the Pirates could have had. Littlefield… worst thing to happen in Pittsburgh sports since… I don’t even know.

Anyone who thinks the Pirates are ever going to compete with this ownership is just plain naive. Even if all their trades work out and they develop young talent they never will be able to afford to keep it. The business of baseball is broken. Nobody wants to fix it. Until there is a salary cap or an owner with unlimited deep pockets then the Pirates will always be losers.

Enough of the “woe is me” mentality. The Pirates could be competitive if they just allocated resources effectively. Instead of wasting money on Matt Morris, draft Matt Wieters. Yes, Pittsburgh is a small market, but so are many competitive teams, like the ones mentioned above. The Pirates may have less of a margin of error than the Red Sox or the Yankees or the Phillies, but that’s no excuse for failing to field a competitive product.

The fact of the matter is that the Pirates can field a team full of league-minimum guys sprinkled with young guys locked up to cheap and long contracts, and still yield the same results as they get with Adam LaRoche and Jack Wilson.