Cubs and Zach Duke

by Bucko on Jul 25, 2009 11:43 PM EDT

I saw this Gordon Edes note today on YahooSports!

With the Cubs’ only All-Star, Ted Lilly (notes), having shoulder trouble that will put him out of action indefinitely – worst-case scenario is that he has a torn biceps – expect the Cubs to be one of the teams making a push for Pirates left-hander Zach Duke (notes), who is very available. The Cubs also could have interest in shortstop Jack Wilson (notes).

What kind of return would the Bucs be looking for in this kind of deal? Would it be unreasonable to ask for Samardzija and/or Vitters? What about guys like Ryan Flaherty, Jay Jackson, Casey Coleman and Christopher Carpenter? I'm sure there would be others potentially, I just did kind of a quick scan through the organization. Would the Bucs be asking a slightly higher price because of the timing and because it would be an intradivision trade?

I'm inclined to believe that the Jake Peavy trade didn't happen because of an unwillingness to move some of these guys, but way back in March the Cubs probably didn't see themselves locked in a tight division race heading into August. A lot of people seemed to just be handing them the division back then. But isn't that what the trade deadline's all about? The Cubbies might be a bit more desperate, especially with one of their better pitcher down.

I think the most potentially attractive side of this trade, however, would be the uproar this would cause. I'm sure the yinzers would be foaming at the mouth to see who could scream the loudest at NH for trading the Buc's most effective pitcher this season and Jack Wilson to a division rival. And not just any division rival either; this would be returning to the scene of the crime, so to speak. I think there are more than a few folks out there who might still be a little miffed about Aramis Ramirez and company from a few years ago. And that sure could be fun to watch.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

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on the surface

i would like to think that, given the combination of how they’ve performed this season and how much the cubs could use their abilities…

duke might be worth any of the cubs’ top 5 (outside of vitters – flaherty, lee, jackson, samardj?) straight up, and wilson might be worthy of one of their C grade guys (schafer, castro or lake)

however, two things would lead me to believe that would not be our return. first, it’s that we are still in the mode of acquiring quantity over quality, so instead of getting one borderline A/B guy and one borderline B/C guy, we’d shoot for something closer to three or four guys outside of their top 5 or 10.

the second mitigating factor is that, this year’s draft class excluded, the cubs’ farm system isnt particularly deep. they’re not in the best position to be making any sort of trades with lopsided personnel numbers, unless they are supremely confident in this year’s draft class.

i’m inclined to think that a deal with the cubs is unlikely, since they would really need to find the right balance between providing us with an adequate return (in quality OR quantity) while not leaving any big holes in a system that already isn’t insanely deep.

by geeves on Jul 26, 2009 12:13 AM EDT reply actions

For Duke?

I think Duke has way more value than that right now. I love Vitters but if he’s all we got back for Duke? It would be a robbery. Look at what other teams get for good pitching- 2 or 3 top, major league ready prospects. Duke is only 26 and is performing well with a clean bill of health. Those guys are expensive! Look at what the Indians want for Cliff Lee. Now, I know Duke didn’t win the Cy Young last year, but Lee is 5 years older. I’d take the next 5 years of Duke over Lee’s next 5- easy.

by my dixie wrecked on Jul 26, 2009 3:16 AM EDT reply actions

Robbery for the Pirates....

Pass the crack pipe if you think we are getting Vitters AND something else.

by David Todd on Jul 26, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions

who would you rather have ....

Who would you rather have for the next 5 years- Cliff Lee or Zach Duke? I contend that a bunch of GM’s would say Duke. Now take a look at what the Indians want for Lee. I’m telling you, it’s a lot more than just Vitters. And I like Vitters- I have him on my fantasy team. His upside is probably higher than Duke but his floor is minor-league flameout. In real baseball, a pitcher like Duke simply has more value than a single A prospect.

by my dixie wrecked on Jul 26, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions

You're insane

No GM in baseball – not even Dayton Moore – would take Zach Duke over Cliff Lee.

by maguro on Jul 26, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions

You're wrong.

I’m only talking about Duke from age 26 to 31 – his prime years, and Lee from age 31 to 36- his sunset. And by the way, when Lee was Duke’s age, he was in just his first full season and posted a 5.43 ERA.

by my dixie wrecked on Jul 27, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Even with that proviso...

…I still think Lee is the runaway favorite among ML GMs, there.

by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Cubs fan here

Samardzija signed with a NTC. While he could waive it, I dunno. We’re loaded in the middle infield at the lower levels. Since recent call-up Andres Blanco looks like he could be an extra infielder in 2010, Darwin Barney may be available. He’s not hitting at AAA this year, but he can field. Flaherty is a possibilty, or Lake. Castro or Lee, no chance. Or Jay Jackson, hopefully.

I’m wondering if it would make sense to shoot you some middle infielders and pitchers (some with better control than Donald Veal) so you can deal Wilson and/or Sanchez for the best package, not worrying about positions. We could send you 31 utility-rookie Bobby Scales and (please?) Aaron Miles and you could have two usable parts in the bigs for 2009&10.

I’m wondering if Gorzelanny (or Snell) and Grabow might make more sense. I would think Duke would be good enough to keep.

Just a few thoughts. I really enjoy your site. I understand the seemingly never-ending rebuilding process. And I was(am) a huge Clemente fan, even though he died when I was seven.

by tim815 on Jul 26, 2009 9:39 AM EDT reply actions

I hope....

you weren’t suggesting a trade of Bobby Scales and Aaron Miles for Zach Duke.

by joegonzo on Jul 26, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions

heck no

I honestly think that Grabow makes more sense than Duke. If we would toss in some middle infield candidates, not necessarily Flaherty, but Scales, Darwin Barney, Junior Lake (one from in there), and a couple of minor league arms (though not Jackson, Cashner, or Carpenter), and toss in Miles so you can send off Sanchez for the best available package, you throw in Gorzelanny.

Something like Gorzelanny and Grabow for two pitchers and two infielders (including Miles). Naaah, we wouldn’t want to drain our system for Duke. Our rotation is (presently dinged, but) good enough. And you’re right, Miles and trash (or trash and trash, as it would be) for Duke ought to be laughed at.

by tim815 on Jul 26, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Okay full stop.....

There is NO chance we are taking Bobby Scales or Aaron Miles. None, zip, zero. Not sure if you are looking, but we are going young and cheap with players we can control for the next four to six years. I understand you are suggesting them as stopgaps if Jack and Freddy leave, but trust me we will stopgap with Bixler and Vasquez. We’ll see how Diaz develops. We aren’t trading for 31 and 32 year old journeymen when we give up players.

And we aren’t “throwing in” Gorzelanny. He’ll be up in September, get four or five starts and, in my opinion, probably be in the middle of our rotation next year.

I know fans aren’t very good at trade proposals, but you got to get real.

by David Todd on Jul 26, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions

If Cubs fans still remember the Aramis/Kenny Lofton trade, most of them may be anticipating McCutchen as a throw-in.

by Pirates4Life on Jul 26, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions

no problem.

i was under the impression gorzelanny was permanently in the doghouse, or whatever. scratch the offer. duke is too rich for our blood. not sure what it would take to get grabow. but if the arms aren’t easily available, we’ll keep our middle infielders and hope bj ryan has something left in the tank.

buit at some point, junior lake or darwin barney might help pittsburgh up the middle.

by tim815 on Jul 26, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions

I just shivered uncontrollably

we will stopgap with Bixler and Vasquez

Just drop me in a coma now, and wake me up in 2011.

by JRoth95 on Jul 26, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions

I think...

Daiz is gonna be the stopgap.

by joegonzo on Jul 26, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions

It was worth a shot, Tim.

Pirates fans, is there anyone you would trade us for Aaron Miles? One of your better clubhouse attendants perhaps?

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on Jul 27, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions

How about

A pierogi prospect. You can have Strawberry Sam or go for a safer pick (but lower upside) with Cabbage Caleb. The Cubs can start to build the foundation for their own daily races.

Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock

by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Hm, you may be on to something there.

Maybe we could convert him to a deep dish crust and start some pizza races. Let me run this by Jim Hendry – something tells me he’s no stranger to pierogis.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on Jul 27, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions

NOOOO

Converting a pierogi into a pizza is unheard of. Rick Ankiel couldn’t even do that one. And why would you convert Cabbage Caleb???? He’s in the top 3 racing prospects along with the Nats’ Bill Clinton, and Milwaukee’s Spicy Sausage (though he has a history of concussions after some player hit him with a bat).

If NH trades Caleb, it would be for financial reasons, that cheap SOB Nutting makes me so MAD… Let’s all REVOLT!

by H2O on Jul 27, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions

I wouldn't.

Sorry.

by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions

I highly doubt anyone would waive a NTC to come and play here.

by psunate77 on Jul 26, 2009 10:36 AM EDT reply actions

The MLBPA-recommended standard no trade clause form comes with Pittsburgh already filled in.

by WTM on Jul 26, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

I dont want to sound like an idiot

but would Flaherty and Vitters be available for Grabow and Duke? I’d love Flaherty because he was Alvarez’s teammate at Vanderbilt, and he has good power. I’m not sure if Vitters will be available though, but he could develop real good pop, and he has a better glove than Alvarez at 3rd.

I’m not sure what they were willing to give for Peavy, and what their stance is on those guys. Obviously, if they didn’t want to give them for Peavy, they wouldn’t give them for Duke.

by H2O on Jul 26, 2009 10:45 AM EDT reply actions

Vitters, no way in the universe for Duke

Flaherty, at least that could be considered. We have other guys in the pipeline in the middle infield. I just did a statistical research project on Flaherty’s Draft Class for the Cubs(2008). He’s turning 23 on Monday, and has a .743 OPS in (Midwest League, middle A) Peoria. My guess, and I would be ridiculed by people who know more about the Cubs system than I do, if you get Flaherty, you probably wouldn’t get anything else. But maybe we’d let you do whatever you want with Veal.

But Vitters, no way. Vitters would only go for Halladay. If he were acceptable for Peavy, Jake would be on our Disabled List. My thoughts only.

by tim815 on Jul 26, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions

Didnt think so

I was pretty sure Vitters was untouchable, but I think we would have to get more than Flaherty if we are trading 3 years of a cheap Zach Duke, even if he is just a #3 starter. I’m not sure if in-division trades make the return higher either, but would think that NH would probably target Cashner too.

Also, can someone explain what “a gaggle” means? lol. Is that like getting 2 of the teams top 5?

by H2O on Jul 26, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions

Duke won't be traded to the Cubs unless...

we get a package like Cashner, Jay Jackson, and another player. We are going to be asking for A LOT and we should because Duke has been really good this year and we still have him for a couple more years for pretty cheap.

by joegonzo on Jul 26, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions

A gaggle is a group of geese.

Used here in the metaphorical sense, I would imagine.

by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions

We might take one of those for Aaron Miles, too.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on Jul 27, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Aaron Miles?

I’d rather have Lou Pinella’s briefs! Metaphorically speaking

by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, so we would we.

Oh, wait…we have those, too.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on Jul 28, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions

So I assume we will have a duck pond in centerfield, where our geese will be able to swim. Maybe we could also have a petting zoo, and a moon-bounce. If the Cubs are willing to add a water slide out of the rotunda, our stadium would be amazing.

by H2O on Jul 27, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions

I’m a fan of both the cubs and pirates, and I can’t see how this trade really makes sense. The Cubs don’t really need a starter, they need a left handed reliever so marshall can be bumped into the rotation. I also don’t think the pirates should trade duke unless they get a ton of talent for him because he is the foundation of their rotation. I think a trade for sanchez and/or grabow makes much more sense for both teams. Sanchez and grabow will be past their primes when the pirates are ready to compete and the cubs need both a lefty in the pen and a second baseman. For Sanchez the cubs would have to give up a lot of talent (jackson or cashner, castro or flaherty, and one or two more prospects, I dont think they will trade vitters), but I think it would put the cubs over the top this year and would work out for both teams. The cubs could get grabow for less than sanchez probably.

by arastis21 on Jul 26, 2009 4:18 PM EDT reply actions

Dave Littlefield

“works” for the Cubs, so there’s always a chance his stupidity has become contagious and is infecting others throughout the organization.

I’d like to see us get more out of them than Veal after the botched trades of a few years ago.

by patthatt on Jul 27, 2009 10:08 AM EDT reply actions

go big

the Cubs are tight, they wont trade unless they rape someone, which we have all seen happen to the Bucs.
I hope they lose every game and that a-hole manager sh!ts himself on tv.

by rocket25 on Jul 27, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions