Pirates vs. Giants, 27 July 2009
by Charlie on Jul 27, 2009 8:15 AM EDT
442 comments
Pittsburgh Pirates at San Francisco Giants, Jul 27, 2009 10:15 PM EDT
Paul Maholm vs. Tim Lincecum, 10:15 PM.
Regular posting will resume Tuesday, although there's a theoretical chance I'll be back in California to watch the end of this one.
This is neither good nor bad, but thanks to Neal Huntington, I'm no longer particularly titillated by Pirates-related trade rumors. Huntington makes enough moves, and enough provocative moves, that just following the trades that actually take place is enough.
That said, the Twins and Red Sox appear to be interested in some Pirate or other, perhaps Freddy Sanchez or Jack Wilson. Also, the Cubs and Pirates have talked about John Grabow.
On a related note, this morning's post in the PBC Blog strikes me as odd:
[Kent Tekulve] basically said, and I paraphrase here, that it is not good enough for the Pirates to blame youth because they struggle in this area or that area, primarily because this is how -- even if the accrue more talent someday -- they are going to be structured indefinitely.
An outstanding observation, if I might say.
And it will interesting to see how this set of teachers -- at the major and minor league levels -- handle getting the best out of young talent without having to wait too long a time. Otherwise, one might argue, the Pirates will be accomplishing nothing more than preparing players for their next destination.
Say what you want about the levels of preparedness of various Pirates teams the past decade or so--they probably deserve it, although I'd argue that this one really doesn't. But the idea that the Pirates' have merely been preparing players for stardom in other organizations without getting to enjoy those players themselves is a meme that needs to die. True, Aramis Ramirez fits that category, but there hasn't been a pure salary dump like that for years. And guys like Chris Young and Bronson Arroyo blossomed elsewhere, but that was because Dave Littlefield was too stupid to keep them, and not because of anything having to do with the way the Pirates do business or anything having to do with the team's current management.
In fact, the overwhelming majority of trades of veterans the Pirates--even when still run by Littlefield--have made over the past several years have occurred after the players in question already peaked. Brian Giles went from a great player in Pittsburgh to a good one in San Diego. Jason Kendall went from a good player in Pittsburgh to a mediocre one in Oakland. Craig Wilson, Kip Wells and Kris Benson practically fell off the face of the earth after leaving Pittsburgh--of the three, only Benson had one decent year left in him. Salomon Torres had one good year in Milwaukee, then retired after spending his peak in Pittsburgh. Matt Lawton vanished. Xavier Nady disappeared in a mess of injuries. Damaso Marte did nothing.
The two clear exceptions to the rule here are Ramirez and Jason Bay. And even in Bay's case, his performance in Boston has actually been a bit wose than in his peak years in Pittsburgh, when he hit a bit better relative to the rest of the league and played better defense.
People who claim that the Pirates are simply preparing players for other teams just don't know what they're talking about. By the time the Pirates trade most veterans, they've wrung most of their best years out of them, and keeping them around while they get expensive and start declining doesn't do any rebuilding team any good. The problem is that the Pirates haven't done a good job acquiring and developing players, and haven't put together the core of talent necessary to win lots of ballgames.
Keep this in mind when you hear trade rumors about Wilson, Sanchez or Grabow this week. It's very likely these players have already peaked. The Pirates surely endured some growing pains from each of them, but they probably also got their best years, too. Keeping them around for their sunset years may win the Pirates some praise from folks who don't think too hard about it, but it wouldn't be nearly as good a bet for the Bucs as just trading them for prospects in the hopes that those prospects might finally contribute to a contending core.
Also, it's surely right of Tekulve to say the Pirates shouldn't blame youth for their troubles, but maybe not for the reasons he thinks. Some of the Bucs' veteran players over the past several years have been hideous. Randall Simon, anyone? Matt Morris? Pat Meares? Chris Stynes? Heck--Craig Monroe? Ramon Vazquez? The Pirates' veteran players over the past several years have been just as bad, if not worse, than the youngsters. Tekulve's right--youth isn't the problem. A lack of talent is.
Consider this the game thread for today.
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By the time the Pirates trade most veterans, they’ve wrung most of their best years out of them, and keeping them around while they get expensive and start declining doesn’t do any rebuilding team any good.
Unfortunately, observations like this don’t fit the narrative. Whether you’re Phil Rogers or an angry Pirate fan, checking the facts to see where the problem really lies isn’t convenient.
Tekulve ‘s really aiming at a straw man anyway. The Pirates for years have reflexively blamed the losing on the team being young, while at the same time pointing to that supposed youth as evidence things are going to get better. I don’t know whether they’ve really believed this stuff or whether it’s just been spin, although we’re not seeing as much of it since DL left. But throughout most of the losing streak, the Pirates haven’t really had a young team. They’ve tended to have a lot of players in the 26-28 range who were inexperienced because they weren’t good enough to stick in the majors earlier, or weren’t good enough to be in the majors at all if they’d been with a decent team. But the narrative is that the Pirates are always rebuilding and playing prospects, when in fact they’re only just now starting to rebuild.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 9:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Wish I had a dollar for every time I heard some 27-year-old AAAA lifer up for the first time described as a “youngster.”
by bucdaddy on Jul 27, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd be making millions this season
Garrett Jones fits the bill.
by ryebr3ad on Jul 27, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pirates need to stop sending mixed messages
What would stop the Pirates from adopting the last 5 words of WTM’s post as their public message: “just now starting to rebuild.” It’s what they are doing. But they are still afraid to say it publicly.
Instead we get long public monologs from Nutting and NH about players like Freddy and Jack, who will not be on the next good Pirates team, followed by actions that inevitably disappoint fans. Why not say: Freddy and Jack are not part of our long-term plan, period. If they want to stay at low cost, fine. If they don’t, that’s fine too. But either way, they are not the main event. The rebuilding is.
No wonder Teke and the casual fans are confused. That’s what happens when the team continually send mixed messages.
by EdOtt on Jul 27, 2009 9:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Confusion is better...
…than torches and pitchforks.
While rebuilding is the obvious, correct strategy, a lot of the casual fans in town just don’t have the stomach for a rebuilding job. Littlefield rhetorically poisoned the well, as far as that idea’s concerned, even though he never actually attempted a full-on rebuild.
As such, we’re in some very complicated territory here, ethically. Is it OK to lie to the fans if you’re doing it for their own good?
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s pretty hard to confront the ingrained beliefs that the team has been rebuilding for 17 years and that it’s dumped all its good players throughout that time. The average fan has an unshakeable conviction that if they’d just spend some money on free agents, winning would necessarily follow. He also has the equally unshakeable belief that, because Jack and Freddy are good now at age 31, they’re guaranteed to be good in two years.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not apples to apples, but contrast with the criticisms of the Steelers in the modern free agency era, where they’d frequently let players cash-in on free agency and replace from within. They got criticized for it even as they continued to win (although no titles in 90s). But if the Pirates haven’t been winning with their marginal soon to be FA eligible players in their peak years, how much better can they be expected to perform beyond their peak years?
by chicos_pants on Jul 27, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s exactly the point most Pirate “fans” are unwilling to understand. They can’t grasp the fact that if we’re not winning in 2008 when players like Bay, Nady, and McLouth are playing better than ever before in their careers, that there’s no way we’re going to win when they pass their peak.
Their frustration at 17 straight years of losing is understandable, but still, people shouldn’t criticize the Pirates’ rebuilding plan unless they have a better strategy in mind. Their common refrain that if we spend a little more money we’d be a winning team is completely false. We signed Garrett Jones as a free agent last year, and to be quite honest, if for some reason George Steinbrenner had really wanted him, there’s no way that the Pirates, or even a good small-market team like the Rays would have been able to stop him.
The only way for a small market team to compete is to make smart, cheap, free agent signings, and develop talent from within the system. Those are 2 things that Dave Littlefield rarely ever did as GM, but also 2 things that Neal Huntington has proven himself to be good at, in only 1 1/2 years as our GM.
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys are on a roll up there..
Vlad, dead on. Chico, Couldn’t agree more. Akshay, ditto.
The Pirates are stuck in a tough situation. I think they are actually excited about what they have done since FC/NH came in, but the problem is the fans don’t wanna hear it. They want a winner, and they want one now. But the truth is, with a badly-run small market baseball team, it just isn’t possible. And let’s get one thing clear: the problem isn’t 16, going on 17 straight seasons of losing. It’s the record. Nobody wants to be stuck with the record. Here’s a question: do you think there would be so much of a state of panic with the “fans” if the record were 20 seasons? 21?
Does that exonerate the Pirates from all of the dubious moves of years past? No. But it doesn’t make NH’s job any easier that for the past decade, his two predecessors failed to do what he has already progressed well at in less than two years.
Any other city with a struggling team that has seen even a small glimpse of promise would be excited with what FC/NH have done, but the problem is they just happen to be in Pittsburgh, where the whiny, spoiled brats here are never satisfied, even with a championship team.
Charlie is right about the players that he mentioned. Most of them have faded into oblivion, or gone on to be modest to average big-leaguers, at best. The only one on that list I actually miss is Ramirez. We haven’t had a solid, big-bat 3B since he was shipped out. This team hasn’t succeeded in a decade in a half because you can’t expect to win with no top of the rotation starters, no pure power bats, and a bunch of one and two-trick ponies.
Oh, and for all of those still pining over Jason Bay: .218/.342/.370, 5 HR, 24 RBI, 51 K’s since June 1. Huge regression for him. Why? Probably for the same reason that people think Garrett Jones will inevitably fail. Because they’re learning how to pitch to him now.
by silencerdu on Jul 28, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Used this in another thread, but...
"I’m cheap? You think I’m CHEAP? How could you say that to me? I can’t believe this. How could you say that to me? "
"You asked me to."
"You should have lied."
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on Jul 27, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oliver Perez
He had one good year in New York and now has been injury prone and still wild. NYM are struggling to harness his power too.
by lfhlaw on Jul 27, 2009 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice work with the comments from Charlie and WTM.
And let’s hope for a better series on the West Coast.
by patthatt on Jul 27, 2009 10:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
patthatt
where you been hiding, amigo?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cocktails
1) Job search
2) Waiting for things to play out with the PBC before I spend a lot of time posting again. I want to see what other trades we make, if any, and then go from there. Also, I want to see our final tally from this year’s draft and int’l signings, so we can have a better idea of the base being built by NH/FC.
by patthatt on Jul 28, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Grabow mention in Dejan's article had me thinking:
If we trade Grabow, who gets the call from the minors? He’s the only non-Veal lefty on staff (which may explain why we’ve seen Veal being used in some higher leverage situations since he’s come back), and our LHRP options in the farm are pretty grim right now. The only ones of any promise at all at AA or higher are Gorz (who they may not want to use in that role) and Bloom (who isn’t exactly setting the world on fire at Altoona) and Moskos (ditto). Meanwhile, we’ve got several good-to-excellent RHRP options sitting at Indy in Bootcheck, Koplove, and Mateo. Would we be willing to go with Veal as the only lefty in the pen going forward?
The wild card in all this, I guess, is Phil Dumatrait, who’s making rehab starts in the low minors. He’s more of a long man than a pure situational guy, and he may not be healthy enough to shoulder any kind of load this year, but “needs must as the devil drives”, and all that.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Gorzelanny is going to be back in the rotation pretty soon, although there is the issue of arbitration eligibility so it may be a few weeks. Virgil certainly isn’t going to last much longer.
The reliever will probably be Jackson. They’re going to have to do without a lefty.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By my numbers...
Gorzo is safe from arbitration after August 5th…because he won’t have 86 days on major league rosters this season…which is the first prerequisite for being arbitration eligible as a “Super Two”.
by Thunder on Jul 27, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t know about that one. That’s helpful. Gorzo could still be part of the future. Virgil, not so much.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes....
I’m guessing Gorzo gets 5-7 starts between Aug 15 and the end of the season to make his case for being in the rotation next year.
Assuming no trades: Maholm, Duke, Morton, and Ohlendorf, Gorzo, Snell, Dumatrait, etc. trying to fill the back end.
by dtoddwin on Jul 27, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I read on the PG site that if Gorzo gets
42 more days MLB service time this year, he’ll be arbitration eligible, which I’m sure the organization wants to avoid. I look for a September call-up for him.
by patthatt on Jul 28, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grabow
He’s likely to be a Type-A free agent this off-season. I don’t see him getting traded unless someone really comes up with a big offer. If we don’t trade him, there’s not really any harm in offering him arbitration because his salary isn’t ridiculous ($2.3 million this year) and the worse thing that happens is he accepts and we can try this again next year.
http://www.whygavs.com
http://mlb.fanhouse.com
by whygavs on Jul 27, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't a team have
to sign Grabow, knowing they’re giving up their draft pick to the Bucs? Not sure why a team would give up their 1st rounder for a relief pitcher.
by Danatural08 on Jul 27, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think it’d be worth a shot. If no one wants to give up a pick for him, we can always re-sign him in January and trade him at next year’s deadline. I don’t think his value is going to be all that different in a year.
http://www.whygavs.com
http://mlb.fanhouse.com
by whygavs on Jul 27, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure I agree.
Year-to-year performance variances for relievers are huge. Just look at Will Ohman. He came into this season with a pedegree comparable to Grabow’s, and he’s been an absolute arsonist.
There’s also the matter of Grabow’s bone chips in his elbow. Those are only going to get worse from here – the question is how much, and how quickly.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a fair; I’m mainly just pointing out that they have options with Grabow if they aren’t getting offers they like.
http://www.whygavs.com
http://mlb.fanhouse.com
by whygavs on Jul 27, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Different teams do it for different reasons.
The Giants had a strategy for several years, for example, of deliberately signing mediocre Type As because they didn’t want to have to spend to sign even a below-slot first rounder.
That said, most non-elite Type A relievers these days generally end up signing with their original team or accepting arbitration, because outside teams aren’t willing to pay the pick to sign them.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Did the Giants really do that? It sounds like Yinzer-style conspiracy theorizing. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying that’s one hell of an accusation.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it’s true. When they signed Michael Tucker about five years ago, they did it just a day or two before the deadline for Kansas City to offer arbitration. It was widely known that KC wasn’t going to do it, so if the Giants had waited just a day or two, they wouldn’t have lost their first-round draft pick. It was widely reported that Sabean did it on purpose so he wouldn’t have to shell out the money on the draft pick, or go through the embarrassment of not signing the pick, and he never denied it.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They were pretty open about it at the time.
Sabean decided that first-round draft picks were too risky to warrant the kind of money that they were getting, and he wanted to use more of his budget to put veterans around an aging Bonds-and-Kent-based core. I’ll see if I can dig up a link for you.
Teams do all kinds of wacky draft stuff for strategic reasons. A few years back, the Reds used their first-round pick on a guy they knew wouldn’t sign (Jeremy Sowers), to make up for a shortfall in the draft budget.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The page won't load for me right now...
…due to our stupid work firewall, but the Google synopsis for this page has Sabean talking about it openly during an online Q&A with fans.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just be glad
the firewall lets you in here.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides Talent, Right Now It is Lack of Experience at the Major League Level
While we are short on talent, we also have little experience at the major league level-no matter how old the players are! Aside from Jack and Freddy, all other positon players (who start) have less than 2 years at the major league level playing regularly. Only 2 starters have more than a year experience. And in the bullpen, only Grabow and Capps have any experience.
Having said that, one of the things also to understand is that the new management has not had time to redo the minor league system to teach the players better before they reach the majors. This was another one of NH goals.
So we are short on talent, short on major league experience, and the players haven’t been taught the “Pirate’s Way” as yet. Sounds like a few more years of losses to me.
by zogger on Jul 27, 2009 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
By the time the Pirates trade most veterans, they’ve wrung most of their best years out of them, and keeping them around while they get expensive and start declining doesn’t do any rebuilding team any good.
Yeah, it’s like people in Pittsburgh don’t even remember Kevin Young.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 27, 2009 11:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Two points
1) I read Tekeulve’s statement to mean that if the pirates are going to be built around players with <6 years of service time (ie: “youth”), they can’t have guys struggling for two or three years and learning how to play in the majors… guys like tom gorzelanny, andy laroche and lastings milledge might be useful players soon, but they’re also nearing three years of service time and are going to start to get expensive soon… for the pirates to be competitive, they need to exploit this timeframe and wring maximum value out of this time when players will be affordable… seems to make sense to me…
2) The two clear exceptions to the rule here are Ramirez and Jason Bay.
I guess this depends on how far back you go… jason schmidt, jon leiber, esteban loaiza and jose guillen could reasonably be additional “exceptions”…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 27, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Eh
Those weren’t really salary dumps though, those were baseball trades.
Schmidt more or less demanded out of town, Loaiza was traded for Warren Morris and Van Poppel which seemed like a heist at the time, and Guillen I seem to remember us giving up on for the same reasons that the Mets gave up on Milledge.
Leiber I’ll give you though, that trade was awful.
by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Jul 27, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question is not “was this trade a salary dump?” It is “Are the Pirates accomplishing nothing more than preparing players for their next destination?”
In all of these cases, the Pirates gave these guys playing time at the major league level that started their careers only to see them move to another organization who reaped the benefits of the Pirates’ investment… (ie: the Pirates prepared them for their next destination)… arguably, you could add guys who developed in the pirates’ farm system to the list as well (charlie mentioned chris young and bronson arroyo… you could maybe add matt guerrier and duaner sanchez to that list too)…
oh, and go back a little farther and you’ll find two other guys the pirates developed who have been kinda productive elsewhere in the last decade: tim wakefield and barry bonds
by Captain Easychord on Jul 27, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the Pirates didn’t “develop” Guillen, and it’s debatable whether they developed Schmidt or Loaiaza. Guillen sucked in Pittsburgh and two other teams gave up on him before he became a good player. Schmidt was always disappointing in Pittsburgh. He was pretty much mediocre until he got to SF. Nobody complained about him being traded until after he became an ace. Loaiaza also was mostly disappointing in Pgh. He’d even been demoted to the bullpen when he was traded and nobody complained about him leaving, either. He wasn’t that good afterward anyway. He had one great, fluke year for the White Sox and one good year for the Nats, but other than that he was generally terrible after he left the Bucs, with ERAs over 5.00 in all his other seasons. And Leiber was just a boneheaded trade, not a case of dumping a good player.
The situation that fans are always whining about is the Pirates failing to hold onto their good players and having them go elsewhere and continue to be good. None of these four guys, with the very arguable exception of Schmidt, fits that description.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
Why on earth does the Lieber trade get dismissed as “boneheaded” as if that makes it not count? Is there some sort of organizational mulligan for “boneheaded” trades? Is it because it wasn’t a salary dump? Teke said nothing about salary, and NH has certainly shown a willingness to make non-salary trades of young players for other young players – exactly what the Lieber trade was supposed to be.
The Schmidt trade stands out mostly because the return was such an awe-inspiring bust, but “mediocre” seems a bit dismissive: I’d judge him an above-average pitcher in 4 of his 6 Pirates seasons, with a FIP in the low 4s or even mid-3s, and a K/BB around 2. He was definitely better in SF, but that’s the point, isn’t it? We got his young, developing years and then, once he was 8.5 K/9 and FIP 3.6, we shipped him out. I think that’s exactly the model that Teke was talking about.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody is excusing the Leiber trade
But no organization only makes winning trades either so thats only one deal. A spectacularly poor deal, but just one deal. As WTM points out, the Guillen and Loaiza ideas really aren’t good examples because a lot of other teams dealt with a lot of bad seasons from those two as well. And Wakefield was cast off because he completely lost his knuckleball…we didn’t really develop him anyway, he learned that one on his own.
And here’s what SI had to say about Schmidt back in 04…
“An undistinguished, unhappy starter on a last-place team when the Pittsburgh Pirates sent him to San Francisco at the 2001 trade deadline—in parts of seven big league seasons with the Atlanta Braves and Pirates he was 49-53 with a 4.58 ERA—Schmidt made an about-face and established himself as an ace. “It was like I started my career again,” he says. “I felt rejuvenated.” And the move to capacious Pac Bell Park suited his extreme fly ball tendency. (His career ERA there is 2.38, compared with 4.28 in other parks.)"
Would he have broken out with the Pirates? Possibly. But I’d say that its a lot easier to have a break out when you pay attention to your offseason work, actually care about your job and pitch in a ballpark that plays to your strengths.
So that leaves Bonds (who wanted out), Leiber, Ramirez and possibly Bay and Schmidt (who wanted out) over the course of over a decade. Thats really not being the MLB’s farm team at all…I’d wager that most other teams have been much worse at giving away talent.
by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Jul 27, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pirates didn’t do any developing on Schmidt because he was already in the majors when the Pirates got him. The only times Schmidt was in the Pirates minor league system was on injury rehab.
by Thunder on Jul 27, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Teke's talking MLB development
His whole point is that the growing pains in Pittsburgh are coming from our development of these guys who go on to be fully-fledged MLers elsewhere. The MiL piece is irrelevant (since it doesn’t impact ML outcomes).
Take Andy & Moss: if/when they become productive MLers without huge holes in their games, it will be in large part due to the hundreds of ABs given them by the Pirates. Whoever is Andy’s next employer won’t have to put up with 15 Es in 60 games (or whatever he started), or 4 HR in 500 ML PAs.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glad you mentioned them
Charlie’s post I guess was intended to point out that recent trades haven’t truly had the “development team for the Yankees” vibe, but the impression was created earlier in the streak. Mr. Pedrique has useful specifics (although IIRC it wasn’t Schmidt demanding a trade, it was a typical pre-FA trade), but I’m not sure the absence of salary dump is important.
The bottom line is that the Pirates have developed plenty of high-value players over the years, at least a half dozen of whom went on to have good, and sometimes peak, years elsewhere. It’s all well and good to say that a player’s “peak” year(s) were here, so the next team isn’t getting max value, but Teke’s point is that the Bucs have also been saddled with these players’ crappy growing pains years.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take Duke
We own his rights through 2011. In all likelihood, he’s traded in that year (if not sooner). Let’s say that this year represents a real change, and that his next couple years are at or near this level. That would mean that we had a couple months of great Duke in ’05, then crappy Duke in ’06, ’07, and ’08, then good Duke for ’09, ’10, and a couple months of ’11. That would make 3 full years of awful growing pains and 3 full years of good/great pitching. And the next team that gets him most likely gets 2.5 years of good/declining Duke, none of which are (assuming, again, that this year is real) as poor as the 3 bad years he had here.
It doesn’t matter if 2010 represents Duke’s “peak,” because we’re also stuck with his 3 worst seasons (at the end of his career he’ll have another year or two about as bad, but as a 35-y.o., no one will be throwing him out there 30 starts/year for 2 years in hopes of “harnessing his talent”). Duke – and most other good-not-great ballplayers – will have an average value to the Pirates well below whatever his peak is. Maybe the New Model Pirates will only promote players ready to succeed from MLB AB #1, but I think that an honest look at baseball history suggests that, of any group of starting players, most will spend 1 or 2 full seasons sucking.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still don’t think Teke has it quite right, though. The Pirates at times have had good players who played better elsewhere, leaving the Pirates stuck with the difficult early years. But the problem isn’t that they’ve had too many of them. It’s that they’ve had too few. The Twins and Rays went through the same thing with their cores. Look how awful the Rays were just two years ago. The problem is, you need a whole bunch of these young players developing all at once. The Pirates have usually had just a couple, surrounded by a bunch of crappy guys.
This is a part of NH’s strategy that most fans are just missing. The idea that you hang onto your better, 30-something players and wait for a few prospects to develop doesn’t work. There’s a very high risk that Sanchez and Wilson, to use the current situation, will be below-average players by the time McCutchen, Alvarez, Lincoln, Tabata, etc., (hopefully) get established as good major league players. You need a really large number of prospects with good ceilings, all coming up around the same time, to make a rebuilding plan work. You’re not going to get the numbers you need just through the draft, hence the need to trade for prospects. (This is all laid out in the book “Dealing,” which chronicles Shapiro’s first few years in Cleveland. Anybody who wants to understand the Pirates’ plan right now should read that book. The parallels are painfully obvious.)
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Granted
I actually understand exactly what you’re saying, and exactly what the Pirates are trying for. I just think it’s important to recognize that the Pirates will own a lot of crummy development years from these guys, even if they blossom while still here.
Put it this way: the ideal generic MLB player is a 29-y.o. in his 5th season. Should be right at his peak, fully developed, not too expensive, and a year away from free agency. For a team like the Pirates, you can get a player like this by drafting him, developing him, and suffering through his first 2-3 crappy seasons. For a team like the Red Sox, you can do that, or you can trade prospects to a team like the Pirates for him. The Sox aren’t afraid of his 3rd arbitration salary, nor of his FA contract.
Both teams pay – the Pirates in bad play earlier, the Sox in cash.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both teams pay – the Pirates in bad play earlier, the Sox in cash.
Right. And that’s how it has to be for smaller market teams. If somebody can come up with a way for the Pirates to avoid this formula, I’d like to see it. But none of the people who whine endlessly about the Pirates’ payroll has managed to explain how the Pirates can do that.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. To use an example, we signed Garrett Jones last offseason. But, if for some reason, George Steinbrenner had really wanted him, there’s no way the Pirates, or even the best small-market team in the league in the Rays, would have been able to stop him.
The only way for small market teams to succeed is to make good moves in the draft, make smart trades for prospects, and sign cheap free agents that have potential, all things which Neal Huntington has done very well in just 1 1/2 years as our GM.
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both teams pay – the Pirates in bad play earlier, the Sox in cash.
Incidentally, this is why I wasn’t a fan of the jason bay trade… moss and hansen had negligible value to the sox… they just wouldn’t play for a team that doesn’t have much room for growing pains, especially on a guy like moss who is presumed to have a low ceiling…
as long as low revenue teams are content to facilitate their larger payroll bretheren’s acquisition of star caliber talent without making them sacrifice real future value, the bar will always be set that much higher for the low revenue teams at the height of the success cycle…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 27, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Odd...
I thought the Sox gave up someone else in that trade, too. There was Hansen. There was Moss. Oh yeah, Manny Ramirez.
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on Jul 27, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that doesn't matter because it won't play to the "fact" that the Pirates are cheap and possibly stupid.
Some facts are just inconvenient.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jul 27, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure I understand the point here. The two principal players the Pirates got were LaRoche and Morris. The Sox’ primary contribution went to LA, the Dodgers’ to Pgh.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to say " The two principal players the Pirates got were LaRoche and Morris." is kinda to define the point out of existence…
I think to understand the point here, you have to be standing in the red sox’ shoes… the sox were pretty hard up to move ramirez… he was a petulant 36 year old outfielder who didn’t play defense (and may or may not have been known to be on steroids*)… furthermore, at the time, their spot in the playoffs was somewhat hanging in the balance… against this backdrop, what would you be willing to pay to upgrade to jason bay? (and yes, it is an upgrade or you’re not making the trade in the first place)
would you give up a couple of guys who won’t play prominent roles on your team under just about any circumstances? of course you will! you’re basically giving up nothing that you value… after all, you don’t pay for talent by suffering through bad play… that’s the pirates job!
the point is that the pirates should have made the red sox give up something that the red sox actually valued to upgrade from ramirez to bay instead of giving it to them “for free”… ymmv, but I think the red sox would have done it… not sure exactly who could have been included instead of hansen/moss… jed lowrie, perhaps?
the asymmetrical values of hansen/moss to the two organizations make me think that the pirates were pushing to move bay more than they perhaps should have been…
(*) not a value judgment… personally, I don’t care… but some people do… and a suspended player isn’t going to help his team very much…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 27, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two things:
First, if you think Bay was an upgrade over Manny, you make exactly one person in the known universe. To maintain that Boston gave up nothing is, well, absurd.
Second, I don’t frankly give a shit what a specific team in a 3-way trade involving the Pirates gives up. I only care what the Pirates get. I don’t want NH focusing on “punishing” the Red Sox. I want him focusing on improving the Pirates. If you don’t think the four guys they got were enough return, fine, a lot of people don’t. But the last thing I want to see NH do is turn down a deal that’s good for the Pirates because one team in the deal isn’t getting screwed enough.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
I hear this criticism of the Bay trade a lot and don’t understand it since that is how 3-way trades work. If you apply this logic to the rest of the trade, then the Dodgers gave away LaRoche and Morris for nothing because the Pirates didn’t send them any players.
by maguro on Jul 27, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the dodgers gave value and got value… it’s asymmetric value, given the current and future values of the players involved, so it’s open for debate…
the pirates are in a similar situation here…
but the red sox were the one party to the deal that didn’t have an asymmetric exchange of value… it was present value for present value… and they clearly got more value in bay than they gave up in manny (again, if this weren’t the case, why make the trade?) I don’t see where they gave up any future value (to them) here… and this is where the pirates could have gotten more out of the deal…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 27, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Red Sox also paid Manny’s salary for the remainder of 2007 – $7M. So, Boston gave Manny Ramirez, Moss, Hansen and $7M in exchange for Jason Bay. They gave up a lot.
The Dodgers made out the best – they got Manny and $7M for Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris. If Neal could have squeezed anyone for more, it would have been LA, not Boston.
by maguro on Jul 27, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad NH couldn’t offer to take Scott Boras off their hands in exchange for Matt Kemp.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They didn't get Manny and $7M
They got Manny for free. That $7M wasn’t available for anything else.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for the red sox, bay had to be an upgrade over manny… why would they make the trade if he wasn’t? seriously? and I didn’t say that boston gave up “nothing” overall… I’m saying that they gave up nothing of value for the upgrade… (ie: if manny were a coach plane ticket and bay were first class, they’d still be giving up the cost of the coach ticket, but getting the upgrade to first class for free… silly analogy, but it works)
and please point out where I’m looking to “punish” the red sox… this isn’t about punishing anyone… it’s about maximizing the return to the pirates…
by Captain Easychord on Jul 27, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difficulty with that type of analysis...
…is that Manny had less value to the Red Sox than to any other team in the league, given the untenable situation between him and the front office. Thus, while Manny → Bay was an upgrade for them, it would not have been an upgrade for any other team in the league, who would not have had the same history with Manny.
And the relevant comparison here, it would seem to me, would be Manny’s value to the rest of the league, not his value to the Red Sox.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Snell?
Snell has less value to the Pirates than to any other team in the league. Yet no one would imagine that this places the Pirates in some position of strength from a trade perspective.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just won’t find many people who’ll agree with you that the Red Sox didn’t give up value for value. Most people’s view of that deal is that the Red Sox gave up greater value for lesser value due to off-field considerations. Legitimate ones, to be sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that they traded away a HOF hitter who’s far from washed up. It may be your view that Bay was >>> Manny, but that simply wasn’t the view of the teams involved in the deal. And you’re also ignoring the fact that the Red Sox picked up, what was it, most? of Manny’s remaining salary while also picking up all of Bay’s.
And by ignoring what the Pirates got from the Dodgers, you’re taking the focus away from the need to maximize the return for the Pirates. Let’s say NH believed the Pirates were getting good value with the four players he got (which he obviously did), but he subscribed to your view that it wasn’t enough, not in relation to what he was giving up, but because it wasn’t coming from the Red Sox. If he went back to the Red Sox and said, “This is no good because you’re not giving up enough,” Theo would have told him he was out of his mind. The deal would have been dead and the Pirates would not have gotten that return (which I’m hypothesizing here, for the sake of argument, was a good return). You’re effectively arguing that NH should have insisted on imposing an alternate reality on the negotiations that wouldn’t have been shared by a single soul in all of MLB.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you’re saying that a guy who is OPSing .927 (and who went on to OPS 1.232 with the Dodgers) isn’t a valuable commodity? For whatever reason, his relationship with the Red Sox soured and he was no longer a worth a great deal to the Red Sox, but he was still a very valuable commodity to just about every other team. Markets are based on how much the buyer wants a commodity, not how hard it is for the seller to part with them. To speak in a parable:
Starving boy: “I’ll give you this hundred dollar bill for that apple”
Homeless guy with an apple: "Hmm, I like this apple, and you can’t eat your hundred dollar bill. I’d like to see you give up something that means something to you. "
Starving boy: “I also have a dollar bill and a nickel.”
Homeless guy with an apple: “You can’t eat any of that. No deal!”
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on Jul 27, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but the market for manny was more akin to a monopsony… the dodgers were the only buyer for manny’s services, but they could have chosen other alternatives instead (including jason bay)…
based on his cost to acquire, cost to maintain, age, distractions, etc., most teams weren’t really interested in manny… anyone could have snagged him off the waiver wire a couple years prior… no one did… does this establish his market value in any way?
by Captain Easychord on Jul 27, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the rays also benefitted when guys like longoria, kazmir and shields were putting up big numbers in their first or second seasons (not to mention david price’s big debut)… if these guys take a few years to get to the point where they started, the story may be a little different…
it’s one thing to say that the pirates should follow the rays model or the twins model or the a’s model or the indians model… it’s another to actually implement it and make it work… so often, it just depends on being lucky… if it didn’t, would there be so many models to emulate?
by Captain Easychord on Jul 27, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really shouldn’t be 2-3 years with everybody. McCutchen isn’t struggling. If Alvarez and Tabata are what we hope they are, it won’t take them that long, although it might take a year or so. It seems like 2-3 years with all the Pirates’ prospects because they aren’t that good or because the pinheads running the team haven’t recognized talent (McLouth, Doumit) when they’ve seen it.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It varies
I’d be curious to see it charted (I’m sure someone’s done something along these lines). In other pursuits, we see something like a 10 year rule – great talents take 10 years from taking up a pursuit to becoming proficient/showing “genius.” I’ve seen people try to apply this to baseball, but I don’t know if it has any statistical legitimacy. It’s obviously not from the first T-ball game, but I don’t know if there is a starting point.
Anyway, all I’m saying is that, no matter how good your MiL system, some good talents will struggle in their first and/or second seasons. And guys who are middling talents – useful MLers, but not stars – will struggle for 2-3 seasons. Which means a lot of holes in your lineup/rotation, or a lot of stunted growth as a McLouth can’t be allowed to struggle to establish himself because it’s 2012 and it’s go time.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for anyone
who hasn’t read malcolm gladwell,i believe you’re referring to the 10,000 hours of time spent practicing said skills – which, i would imagine, equates to anywhere from 3 to 8 years of hard work at baseball, depending how much time you dedicate to it. That time frame could also fluctuate depending on road blocks (poor management, injury) and also where exactly your talent ceiling resides.
Someone like Ryan Ludwick takes a very long time, nearly a decade, to finally peak and be MLB worthy, whereas someone like Andrew McCutchen takes closer to four years, and someone like Evan Longoria takes only two (from drafting through pro ball exposure to the big leagues).
by geeves on Jul 27, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luckwick was actually a MLB regular-caliber player by age 25.
He just couldn’t stay healthy and find opportunities to show it.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luck
I’ve said for years that half of Billy Beane’s “genius” was in having his 3 young stud pitchers all succeed young and stay healthy; with that basis, plus good-but-not-genius talent evaluation, you can be pretty damn competitive. But if Hudson or Zito had gone Burnett, Moneyball doesn’t even get written.
You can “plan” by throwing as much talent as possible into the mix, but ultimately, each team only gets so much top-shelf talent, and if that talent fails, for whatever reason, the plan “fails.”
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luck played a factor for Beane...
…but it wasn’t the key factor. The main reason why Beane got so much credit for drafting those three was because nobody wanted Hudson and Zito. They thought Hudson was too short, and that Zito was a soft-tosser.
Yeah, maybe Hudson or Zito could’ve “gone Burnett”, but the fact they stayed healthy wasn’t as important as the fact that Beane realized that all things being equal, they were good pitchers that other teams undervalued. And when it’s all said and done, a soft-tossing lefty wins a Cy Young in 2002.
While I will agree that luck keeps them healthy and gets them all to the majors at the same time (because both Mulder and Hudson had health problems after they left Oakland), talent made them successful. So Beane should get some credit for recognizing the talent that others didn’t (including the Pirates, ironically).
NH is doing the same thing, recognizing talent that other teams won’t take a flier on for whatever reason, most of them irrelevant regarding on-field potential (i.e. Garrett Jones, Lastings Milledge, Joel Hanrahan).
by silencerdu on Jul 28, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two points
Exactly. And if the players aren’t productive much before they get expensive, PBC will be trapped on the same Merry-go-round. Given the current structure and economic model of baseball, doesn’t this argue for greater emphasis on talent-spotting and player development? I took this to be the burden of Tekulve’s reported remarks.
Lino Donoso
by Lino Donoso on Jul 27, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Arbitration Future
Related to this is that, around 2013-2014, the Bucs figure to have a lot of formerly cheap players skyrocketing in value. If these guys play the way we hope, their first arbitrations will get them above $5M (in current dollars). You could see the payroll blow up without even adding FAs. Can the Pirates afford AMcCutcheon’s 2014 salary?
It’s a bit silly to worry about such distant events, but it’s an important part of understanding the cycle that NH is trying to create. The better the player, the more likely that we only see his first 4.5 seasons.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 1:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I guess the hope is…if we can’t afford a big salary with mega millions that with good drafting and scouting we can have a young outstanding CF from the minors replacing AMcCutcheons and on top of that get a high level prospect or 2 in return, if A McCutch is that good.
At some point i think the PBC will sign someone to a larger contract, but not one that’s like an albatross over there head and not overpaying imo. Yes if we get a Carlos Delgado, or Manny Ramirez type player it’d be nice to sign them to that kind of contract. BUT i don’t wanna get stuck with a $10m kendall like contract or a $9M Derek Bell contract. Back then those were really really bad contracts for players that weren’t probably worth that much even though kendall was a fan favorite (to me seen as management caving in to please fans)
by lfhlaw on Jul 27, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you’re probably right about the kendall deal being a management move designed to please fans who liked him. That’s how Dave Littlefield probably kept going for as long as he did; he managed to mix moves that were designed to please fans(Kendall signing) together with moves that displeased fans(Aramis ramirez salary dump), and in the end they were neutral about him for quite a few years. However, both of those types of moves ended up hurting us, whether in bad contracts or salary dumps.
At least Huntington’s shown that he’s willing to make unpopular moves which are for the best interests of the team’s future success, something Littlefield never managed to do.
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now if the pirates ever get into contention and need that one player to get them over the hump and into the playoffs. I don’t mind the half year deal to get a player like CC Sabathia to finish out the year and then lose him as long as it benefits us to get into the play-offs like Milwaukee did. However, if we do make that kind of trade and have to trade prospects. That trade better not make us barren in the farm system.
Consider Roy halladay this year. Toronto is asking an arm and leg from teams that want him. The phillies, considered in the hunt for his services, are not will to part with their top prospects. This imo is how Aramis Ramirez should have been treated even if we had to pay his salary.
by lfhlaw on Jul 27, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a bad idea at all
One would imagine with the kind of talent working its way through the system (Cutch, Tabata, Lincoln, Alvarez) that the 2011 or 12 payroll would be much more the $48M it is now. By then, I would imagine it to be in the (gasp) low-to-mid 60’s.
By then, if they were in contention, I’m sure NH would tell you that taking on a pro-rated $8-9 million contract mid-season to help them get into October is worth it, even if said player’s contract expired at the end of the season (which might even be a scenario that benefits the Pirates).
Some folks might think what I just wrote above is crazy to even imagine, but if NH sticks to his plan, that’s what we can expect in 2-3 years, that is, assuming some of our top-tier talent projects well.
by silencerdu on Jul 28, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
new prospect blog
go to www.diamondreport.wordpress.com. it is a decent new blog on minor league and draft prospects
by wutangruckus on Jul 27, 2009 5:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting that he has Owens and Pounders at 9/10, I’m not sure how I feel about that.
by thegreatchris on Jul 27, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tough to feel much of anything...
…given that he’s not providing any kind of justification for his rankings.
No Uviedo is a big mistake, IMO. He should be on there somewhere, in the bottom half of the top 10.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way on earth I’d put Locke ahead of Morris, especially not after watching both of them in a doubleheader two days ago.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also worth noting:
“wutangchris” is spamming every SB Nation blog with the link to the site, trying to drum up traffic.
For shame! ODB would never tolerate such shenanigans – Wu Tang is supposed to be for the children.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Er, "wutangruckus".
Sorry about the Freudian slip there, Chris.
by Vlad on Jul 27, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No big deal. You know our system better than I do, Vlad, what would your top 10 look like right now? I’m assuming things could change quite a bit between now and Aug 18…
by thegreatchris on Jul 27, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d pose the same question to Wilbur too, since you both have some of the most well-informed opinions around here.
by thegreatchris on Jul 27, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. Alvarez
2. Tabata
3. Lincoln
4. Owens
5. Hernandez
6. Morris
7. T. Sanchez
8. Starling Marte
9. Grossman
10. Quinton Miller
I may be getting a little carried away with Marte and Miller, but what the heck.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven’t seen Owens in person, but you think he’s a better prospect than Gorkys?
by thegreatchris on Jul 27, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have serious doubts whether Gorkys will hit.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a fair criticism. I’d probably put Grossman at 8, but I really don’t know who I’d put at 9/10. Miller and Marte seem reasonable, as does Uviedo, but until I take a few trips this month to see games, I think your guess is as good as any.
by thegreatchris on Jul 27, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, stepped out of the thread.
If you held a gun to my head, I’d probably go:
1) Alvarez
2) Lincoln
3) Tabata
=
4) Owens
5) Hernandez
6) Grossman
7) Uviedo
8) D’Arnaud
9) Morris
10) Sanchez
If you wanted to put Hague or Miller or Marte or Locke somewhere on the lower part of the 10, I wouldn’t have any problem with that. There’s a big gap between 3 and 4, IMO.
If WTM and I disagree on a player, go with WTM’s opinion.
by Vlad on Jul 28, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL @ Vlad
R.I.P. ODB, a.k.a. Osiris, a.k.a. Big Baby Jesus, a.k.a. Dirt McGirt
by silencerdu on Jul 28, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTM what if Dodson, ZVR, and Cain all sign would they be in your Top 10?
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 7:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I dunno. HS pitchers . . . . . .
Maybe ZVR. We should be careful about the three-initial thing, though. It didn’t turn out too well last time.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Top 10
Pedro…..Lincoln….Tabata….T.Sanchez…..Grossman…..Gorkys…..Morris….Owens…Miller…Marte
10 more: ZVR (if he signs), D’Arnuad, Uviedo, Cain (if he signs), Pounders, Locke (he’s been terrible), Mercer, Cunningham, Friday, Dodson (if he signs)
Dang we need some more B level prospects
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 7:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d have Victor Black early in the second ten.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Focus?
De bofus?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't this fun?
We actually have Top 10 prospects that are REAL Top 10 prospects! The Brian Bixler/Yoslan Herrera days are close to an end!
by silencerdu on Jul 28, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In other news
Jack WIlson leads the Baseball Tonight web gem leaderboard.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 7:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And Freddy
is riding the pine tonight as a late scratch because of a knee injury, according to DK.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 7:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Though maybe some time off will help him remember how to hit the ball…
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is killing his value....
I don’t care what DK or anyone else says. Scouts go look at guys over the past two weeks. He’s 0-his last 20 and he was BRUTAL in AZ striking out seven times in 12 at bats. And in the last three weeks he’s missed 7-8 games with back and knee problems. Not good.
by dtoddwin on Jul 27, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's been terrible
I’m happy that DY is in there. I’ll just close my eyes when a ball is hit in his direction
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same as DY does.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lineups
Pirates:
McCutchen, CF
Young, 2B
Jones, RF
Doumit, C
Pearce, 1B
Moss, LF
LaRoche, 3B
Wilson, SS
Maholm, P
Giants:
Torres, CF
Winn, RF
Sandoval, 3B
Molina, C
Renteria, SS
Guzman, 1B
Velez, LF
Uribe, 2B
Lincecum, P
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 7:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Freddy is pulling a Jack
in the process givin the Pirates FO the middle fingers
Trade these butt buddies already!
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 7:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We'll that's silly.
Freddy has every reason to play in order to have his $8.1 million option vest. But, he is starting to put it in jeopardy. He has 382 plate appearances, meaning he needs 218 in the Pirates last 64 games. If he misses or is rested for 5-6 games, it is seriously in question.
by dtoddwin on Jul 27, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is going to be a tough decision for management
If they sit him enough for him to not get his 600 PA there will be quite the backlash. The problem is he needs to sit for a day or two now because his bat has been terrible. Should be pretty interesting to see how this plays out if he isn’t traded.
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably more accurate to
say if he misses 10-12 games.
by dtoddwin on Jul 27, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if they DL him
there’s good chance he won’t get that option
Don’t be surprised if the Pirates pull that stunt on him.
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wouldn't be a stunt....
They could have done it once already when they played six games a man short because they didn’t DL him. If they do it, which I highly doubt, there will be a good medical reason.
by dtoddwin on Jul 27, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering about your math
Surely the #2 or #3 hitter averages a solid 4.25 PA/start. 52 games should do it. That would be tight, of course, but it represents only 13 games of every 16.
If they DL him for anything but an obvious medical issue (something that shows up on an Xray or MRI), they will have a massive grievance on their hands and NH won’t be able to sign an extension or a market value FA contract again. Seriously.
by JRoth95 on Jul 27, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strickland...
the pitcher that was picked up in the LaRoche trade…at WV tonight…clean through 4 innings with 4 K’s.
Anyone been hearing anything on Rudy Owens?? Last appearance, July 18th.
by Thunder on Jul 27, 2009 8:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No hits through 6, 5 Ks
Just a HBP, and one guy reached on an error.
by biggyv on Jul 27, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’re skipping one start with Owens to control his workload.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mossome
After what could be the worst single game performance by any non pitcher this year in last night’s game, JR gives Brandon another start tonight. Moss supporters should be happy.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 8:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
Like DY or Capps or Snell or Grabow or…
never blew a game.
C’mon, amigo -
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh. NON-pitcher.
Mario never hit into potential run scoring DP’s.
Or DY didn’t quintuple clutch a throw to home.
Or Vazquez never….
well, you get the idea.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get the idea, but he did all of that stuff in one game. lol
2 or 3 base running gaffs, at least two really bad plays in the OF and his hitting certainly was not clutch.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but
that game was really over before it started.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, not really
but it was 5-0 before the 4th inning was over. And Mossome isn’t responsible for the 5 runs.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No – true. Just again pointing out that he is getting his chances.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, understood
And agreed to some point.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just annoyed by all the Moss hasn’t had a chance talk, yet Jones, Young and Pearce are busts or playing over their heads.
Career at bats:
Moss 505
Young 324
Pearce 204
Jones 161
So please, folks….keep it in mind.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody has brought it up for some time
except you & mspirate.
Can we end the flamewar?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they should be playing Craig Monroe to find out what they’ve got.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunno, WTM...
Hinske seems to have a lot of upside. He’s played in a coupla World Series…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2009 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
....and he WAS R.O.Y with Toronto...
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by gorillakilla34 on Jul 27, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny, EVRY time a line up is posted with Moss not in it, we almost instanly get a “What’s Moss got to do to get regular playing time blah, blah, blah,…he can’t prove himself iof he doesn’t play….Pearce has had enough chances…blah, blah, blah.” When that dies, or MOss wins a regular job….I’ll give it a rest.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because it’s time fans realize that Moss is a BENCH player. Yes, I supported the guy and said he should get playing time up until about a month ago, but I’m done. That’s the reality of it. I totally agree with Brakeman. Moss has had his chances. It’s time fans quit whining for Moss to get playing time and face the reality that he is bench player.
by mspirate on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps he got it all out of his system in that game.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 27, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trust me…I knew better than to bunch him in with the pitching staff. Capps in particular lately.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Truthfully
1 bad game shouldn’t be enough to bench anyone. Ask Andy after his start to the season.
And it’s not like JR has many other options? Who would you rather he start? ?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
110+ (or so) comments, and there’s still 1.5 hours left till the game.
Provided this doesn’t turn into a blow-out, we could need a 2nd game thread before the Pirates get a hit 4th inning.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 9:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Via a Dejan column earlier
the Tigers like RobinZone. A case of selling high, no?
(I’d have preferred JJ be in AAA though… he could use the at-bats)
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 9:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They don't want to mess with JJ's options
He still has 3 I think so if they keep him on the 25-man the rest of the year those options will carry over for another year (2010, 2011, 2012)
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
but still, it’d be nice to see him get some at-bats. I mean, he’s not even getting use as a pinch-hitter or defensive sub in the majors
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s also a reason to trade Diaz if they can get something shiny. I think he’s out of options.
by WTM on Jul 27, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THEY DID IT!
Edwin Moreno pitches the final 3 perfect innnings to combine the no-hitter with new acquisition Hunter Strickland for the West Virginia Power.
1st no-hitter ever in App. Power Park
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 9:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's great
Does anyone know when the Power season ends? I was hoping to drive down for a game before the end of the season
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://westvirginia.power.milb.com/schedule/index.jsp?sid=t525&m=07&y=2009
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
I was also wondering what you guys think about removing a player that is throwing a no hitter. I know they have a strict pitch count, so if you are a prospect then you aren’t going to surpass that no matter what. Are the players that aren’t considered prospect held under the same guidelines? If they are clearly just a filler and they are cruising do they still get taken out?
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Opponent tonight
has acquired Ryan Garko for a prospect and a PTBNL. Plus they are honoring Sue Barns who recently passed away unexpectedly and was their owner. So I expect an emotional game from them.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 9:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
...
didn’t they already dedicate a game to her? Or am I imagining things?
by BlindSquirrel on Jul 27, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They just returned from a ten game road trip
So I would assume no. The players may have done something at a game on the road trip.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Josh Willingham
just hit his second grand slam of the night in Milwaukee! Nats crushing the Brewers!!
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 10:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think
It would be great if the Pirates finished ahead of them this year.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you mean for the draft?
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No (but I think you are being sarcastic)
It’s a long shot but if they keep sliding like they are there’s a chance the Bucs beat them in the standings
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't sure
I didn’t know if you wanted to finish higher in the draft than the Nationals. Oh, oh, oh you were talking about the Brewers haha got it
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I probably should have clarified
Sorry, my mistake
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know some
want the Bucs to finish worse than the Nationals for Bryce Harper. I personally don’t think it will matter either way because I highly doubt the Nats draft him after all the money that will be shelled out for Strasburg
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
but The Bucs (barring a very bad stretch) will still finish ahead of the Padres, Indians, Royals, and maybe the A’s
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I don't see a huge drop from this team
I like the lineup better now than when Mario plugged up 1st. We have some good pitchers in the rotation so I don’t see a typical Bucs slide this year
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Buccos?
Or the Nats?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Pirates finished ahead of the Brewers in the standings
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I assumed...
good to make sure though. :)
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty impressive
13-5
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 up
2 down.
2 Ks.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like Lincecum's delivery
However, not when he’s pitching against us. He’s such a K machine
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Had 10 against us last time.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i finnaly get to watch a televisied game
and its against lincecum…why god why
by C Los on Jul 27, 2009 10:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You have terrible luck
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jumpin Jack
nearly sent that throw into the stands.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 10:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Then
makes a great play
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wilson!
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic play by Jack
and Pearce
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The last 2 balls were smoked
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Damn.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
haha i was typing the same thing…ugh!!
by C Los on Jul 27, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
make that 3
What is wrong with Maholm?
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Really bad location
and mediocre stuff in general.
by ryebr3ad on Jul 27, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Maholm continues to struggle on the road
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Goofy bounce
nice play Andy
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did Cutch think that double was gone?
by psunate77 on Jul 27, 2009 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Playing the carom
So it didn’t become a triple
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he realized
there was no way he was going to catch it.
As the Giants announcers mentioned… he was playing relatively shallow
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It feels like a victory to limit that to one
by thegreatchris on Jul 27, 2009 10:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Another 1st inning run
for the opponent. Not cool.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Its ok
we are facing an ace. We’ll put up 10. Hopefully Paul doesn’t give up 11
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ouch
according to MLB Trade Rumors, The Twins asked about Halladay and were told they weren’t on the list of teams that Halladay would accept a trade to. I’m assuming the Pirates are on that list too.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't get why
he’d say no to the Twins. They are contending, and are a relatively good team.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really understand either
which is why it must sting a bit. I guess he doesn’t like Minnesota
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not an outgoing person either
Minnesota isn’t a large market. Seems like he could keep to himself pretty well up there
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
it’s not far enough away from Toronto for him?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minnesota is a supposed small-market team
so they won’t be able to pay top dollar for Halladay’s services
I think Halladay wants a contract extension when he’s traded
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I thought he said he was testing the market, no matter what.
(Though I’ve heard that before… NBA though… and seen it not happen)
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw that
That has to sting a little bit. I wonder whose no trade list we aren’t on
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Morris
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ouch
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doumit
leadoff single
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Renteria
he ain’t no Jack Wilson
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
3 Ks.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
4 Ks
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And now 4.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay & Angels
The Halos do not want to part with Joe Saunders, Erick Aybar, Brandon Wood, and another prospect for a single pitcher
Dang… that’s a lot they’d have to give up.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They should definitely get rid of Aybar. He failed to hit a HR after the 3 batters before him just did.
Haha Carl Pavano.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's way too much
I still don’t see why the Phils don’t pull the trigger. Where is Drabek playing? Isn’t he in A ball? They would be giving up a lot of potential, but it would be worth it for a shot at a World Series
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AA, but still with his injury history, he’s no lock to even make the majors.
by thegreatchris on Jul 27, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
You know what you are getting with Halladay. Especially if he moves to the NL. I just don’t see how the Phillies are holding back. If you lose a couple of high end prospects, draft like the Bucs did this year.
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Not really impressed with the Phils prospects that the Jays want.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to have that Carlos Carrasco guy
only 22 with a lot of potential
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would do that if I was the Angels.. I think Doc makes them a favorite for the next few years..
by psunate77 on Jul 27, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
but they’re giving up 2 or 3 MLB level starters.
Aybar is starting. Saunders is starting. Wood will be starting next year after Chone Figgins leaves
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They may start, but Wood is replaceable and so is Aybar.. Angels will probably sign Chone. He has mentioned he wants to remain with LA.
Doc could still be the best pitcher in baseball.
by psunate77 on Jul 27, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Figgins is gonna cost a lot
and there are talks that the Yankees will go after him hard.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andy is looking more and more like his brother.
I am ready for Pedro.. LOL
by psunate77 on Jul 27, 2009 10:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I know we won't get Halladay
but who would the Pirates give up to get him with Cutch and Pedro off-limits?
I’d say Lincoln, Tabata, Uviedo, and maybe Grossman
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 10:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They want a MLB ready player as well
we’d have to toss in someone else as well.
Would Moss or Jones or Diaz cut it?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even sure that would do it
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Pedro/Cutch aren’t part, you aren’t getting him… The 4 you mentioned are garbage compared to what the Jays are turning down.
by psunate77 on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dammit
Jack miffs a bouncer
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh man
WTF Jack?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dang
A rare misplay by Angry Jack
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice play jack
we can afford to give up outs against Lincecum
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jack….playing for a future in PIttsburgh.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow, just wait one more second Andy…
by thegreatchris on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Luigi!
Way to not force a rundown there.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dammit again
Everyone safe on a ball hit to Luigi. he’s gotta run at the runner there and force a run down
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WTF?
We’re losing this game very early.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Luigi!
Makes up for it!
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Andy just made up for th early throw
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Then
another hit to Luigi and it’s a 5-2 DP
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If we get out of this inning without further damage, I’ll feel genuinely lucky
by thegreatchris on Jul 27, 2009 10:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok Maholm
bounce it after the plate not before it
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow
excellent D this inning Pirates. Just spectacular
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sarcasm
Now it probably doesn’t even deserve the attempt
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
The defense just got worst so it wasn’t deserving of the attempt at sarcasm but more like a blunt statement. I wasn’t trying to insult you
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 28, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTF Garrett?!
Wow. Terrible defense in the outfield.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 10:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WTF Jones? Dive maybe?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Was that serious?
I waited all day on my day off to watch this game and this is what I receive for my patience
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Haha…You should’ve known better than that.
by mspirate on Jul 27, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad my hip feels better
I got up and turned the channel.
by ryebr3ad on Jul 27, 2009 10:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Doah
Jones looked like he was going to catch that and then just gave up…like he thought Cutch called him off.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 10:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maholm
keeping the ball up. Not good.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think WHYGAVS nailed it (via twitter)
Jones is a future DH.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Or our 1st baseman and trade piece
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure every GM
would see right through that
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones
another fail
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dude, that’s ridiculous. Jones misplays a ball, and he’s another failure because everybody is just waiting on him to fail. Moss misplays a ball, and it just a blip on the radar, and he should continue to play everyday. Give me a break.
by mspirate on Jul 27, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
no one is saying Jones should stop playing.
He failed on the play, simple.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I read that wrong. When I first read that, I thought he was talking about Jones being another failure as a Pirate player. It didn’t even cross my mind that Green Wave could’ve just meant that Jones failed to make another play. I apologize, Green Wave, if that’s what you meant.
by mspirate on Jul 27, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it happens
No offense taken
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry bro. I’m just so used to people on here talking about waiting on Jones to fail as a player that I just assumed that’s what you meant. My fault.
by mspirate on Jul 27, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're Pirates fans
don’t we expect every player to fail?
(Okay, not really).
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just wanna see something to make me think
he isn’t just the next Chris Duffy.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hall of fame players aren't failures
Jones will never cool off
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he was just talking about the attempted catch
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Freak out why don't ya
All i said was that he failed on that play. I didn’t say he was a failure. i did the same thing for Moss, though it may have been a swear instead of saying fail.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Jones has a Moss-like game tonight
(he’s half way there with the horrible plays in the field), it’ll turn into a swear.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...WHOA
That was a weird-ass ending play.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 10:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The last run should NOT have counted!!!
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He absolutely caught it
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes…quite clear on the replay. Hit off his body and then he kicked it and DY caught it.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one of the best plays on D and we get robbed!!
by C Los on Jul 27, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTF just happened?
I think DY made the catch!
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He was out!
Bad call there.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He will
Jones will move to 1B when Pearce hits .200 for the rest of the season and is released/traded in the offseason.
by mspirate on Jul 27, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if Jones hits .200 the rest of the season?
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then it was bad-luck
because a future Hall of Famer with his start
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shouldn't have mattered then
botched plays by wilson, Maholm, and 2 by Jones
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Whatever Moss had last night must be contageous…Jones has it now.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I missed last night
bad night for Moss?
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, he made a few baserunning errors and booted a few balls in the outfield too
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or it could be that Jones just sucks defensively
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you kidding?
That guy is good at everything. He’ll hit .400 for the rest of his career. He never screws up.
/sarcasm
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In defense of all our outfielders...
it seems to be somebody different every night booting balls. It’s just one guy over and over. Everybody is contributing.
by mspirate on Jul 27, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for swinging at the first pitch and flying out Jack!!
by C Los on Jul 27, 2009 10:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
damn
that was a nice play by Delwyn…stupid ump
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 10:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Moral victory
less than 6 errors and score 1 run
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
God
swing the bat, you moron!
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 10:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
DY Ks
simple lesson that was taught in little league. 2 strikes and close protect. terrible
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Looks like Yinzers
should be more excited about Rivers Casino than Pirates baseball.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 10:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Apparently
this is more entertaining that what was on before
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm willing to bet my life
The Pirates will be scoreless again tonight.
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 10:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wonder
what the return on that would be in Vegas. Would you get an extra life like in video games or would you get the monetary equivalent of your specific life adjusting for expected years remaining and impact on the world.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing, at least I won’t be up past 1130 watching this..
I probably will though :(
by psunate77 on Jul 27, 2009 10:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
take comfort in knowing
your alma mater is THE number 1 party school in the land.
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's remember
That this guy makes lots of people look silly at the plate.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
holy sh!t
1-2-3 inning?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Time for a solo shot Jones
Please?
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he's not doing that anymore
only with runners on
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw, i stopped watching on tv and just switched to gameday
and noticed the pirates have 0 errors!
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not switching it off
We could watch history…20 Ks is possible
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
15 outs and 12 K's to go
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
naw
he needs 12 more… with 15 outs…
jack alone will have a couple of 1st or 2nd pitch flyouts…
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jack
first pitch swinging finally has some good?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
4 innings
8 K’s
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Apparently
Timmy L will have 18 Ks at game end.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he’s already thrown 50 pitches though, so even if it’s lincecum he could still tire out. plus they won’t want to risk injury if they’re up big at that point.
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thank god we got a hit
hes got no hit stuff going…and the bucs arent helping
by C Los on Jul 27, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Even if that hit
was a dribbler that a decent defensive shortstop gets to
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
YEAH
isnt it obvious the giants need jack?
why dont they pull the trigger on that one now? He could be out in the field consecutive innings (with a magical change of uniform), and help paul with some 1st pitch flyouts
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
K's galore...
almost kinda funny.
Except that it’s also really disgusting.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if this one is a shutout
i predict barry zito getting lit up tomorrow to the tune of 10 runs
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It will be that
or another shutout.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or a 4th consecutive shut out. lol
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then Matt Cain after that.
Uh oh…
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice play by Andy
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm throwing in the towell on this season
The seasons over were not gonna compete lets just trade freddy wilson duke grabow and doumit another shutout in the making wonder what the record is for consecutive games
by baseballssp3 on Jul 27, 2009 11:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
...you're throwing in the towel now?
by ryebr3ad on Jul 27, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's still people on PBC blog
that think the Pirates are still in it
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was fast
even if u hadnt thrown in the towel, i m up for trading freddy, wilson, grabow. Doumit and Duke for an exorbitant “right” price
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
ball after ball is getting away from Doumit.
Is that on him or Maholm?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes
This is getting ridiculous we can’t compete…I’m up for trading anyone we can get some good talent and plan to be good in 2012
by baseballssp3 on Jul 27, 2009 11:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey
Lincecum K-ed… but he was batting
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
wow, 2 decent innings in a row by maholm
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 11:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brilliant timing
now that the games over, he’s pitching well.
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure he s done that badly
he has 4 ER, but dont think any of the 2nd inning runs should be counting…
botched DP by Jack- 2 outs, the Lincecums grounder makes the 3rd out…
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too late
To bad we spotted them 5 runs
by baseballssp3 on Jul 27, 2009 11:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
4
…and only 3 should have counted.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And another is avoided
if Jones and/or Cutch cuts off that ball
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or if Jack doesn't misplay the ground ball
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if Luigi
forces a rundown on the first ground ball to him
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moss
walks. That makes two walks and one dribbler for the offense
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What higher at the end
the number of hits or the number of walks?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 walks now
so I’ll take walks. lol
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sad story about Beasley's dad
As he landed JR had to tell him his dad had a heart attack and died.
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Damn it.
This hit-and-run doesn’t work. Ever
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh
and he was safe
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?????
Why do you hit and run with a slug on 1st?
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JR loves doing that
I like Mossome, but seriously… you don’t want him running
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially with the guy who leads the league in Ks on the mound.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strike em out, throw em out
Now Lincecum only has two outs to get by means other than the K to get to 20
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Another walk
woo!
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Worst Pirate baseball I've seen all year
even when they had that 8-gm losing streak earlier
by BadAndy on Jul 27, 2009 11:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i predict
16Ks and no more for “the Freak”
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still 2Ks/IP
10 through 5.
Excuse me while I vomit.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 11:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Can we at least
swing the f***ing bat?
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Or at least just hold it out over the plate and hope Lincecum hits it with a pitch….
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't that work
in RBI baseball for NES?
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's probably the only way we'll make contact the rest of the night.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lincecum’s already thrown 72 pitches. no way he stays in the whole game, especially if the giants are still up late in the game
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stay low
and swing hard in case you hit it
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the record
7 of the 10 Ks have been swinging.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh.
Well I haven’t seen those. Whenever I look up, someone K’s looking
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dang it Paul
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's it Paul
You have no chance to throw him out, so why not just throw it away. Gah
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Should not have thrown the ball Maholm
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is like a highlight reel
of the worst baseball we’ve played all year rolled into one game.
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
lets hope we can get all the bad baseball out of us between saturday, yesterday and today.
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 11:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, and make a run at the division after that!
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
woohoo another baserunner
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Alright...
how can we waste THIS no-out baserunner?
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice play by the SF LF to not trample his teammate, lolz.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
2 runners on? one was a well hit ball? huh?
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nope, RBI groundout.
Scoreless inning streak is over!!!!!! WHEEEEE!!!!
(Oh wait… that’s not something to be proud of.)
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Bucs score!
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm usually not one for moral victories
But I’ll take it this time.
Hey, one more!
by biggyv on Jul 27, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
at least they got the 2 runs home… i ll take it!
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would've been nice to see Doumits shot get down
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yay a run!!! now if we can only get 4 more…
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 11:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We've scored!
2 runs!
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by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Altoona
gives up 4 in the 10th and lose 10-6 to Binghamton.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
cant say i care a lot
about the wins/losses…
would be more concerned about who s giving up the runs and who s not hitting
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Jones..or Moss might have even caught that one. lol Winn was totally turned around.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pearce!
nice hit opposite field
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Whoa...
Wynn looked like a Pirate out there, the way he misplayed that.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 11:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
now now
the OF isnt that bad, Moss made a mess yday, but he’s usually solid…
Jones is, unfortunately, in a position he’s not familiar with… if he can hit a 2R HR today, he’ll have gotten it back!
by BurgherKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. We need Jones at 1B, Pearce on the bench, and Lastings up from the minors.
by pittbluedevil on Jul 27, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh c'mon Moss
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
by BattlinBucs on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Moss ugly K
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
wow nice swing moss
he had no i mean no chance at the plate so fooled
by C Los on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
5 minutes ago, who would have guessed we’d be a brandon moss homer away from tying it up?
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Overflow thread
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
epic fail by moss, but at least we scored runs
by Akshay R on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Young
sweet play…although we may have got a call there.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 27, 2009 11:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Makes up for the blown call
on the Young catch earlier
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 27, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HI All
One thing’s for sure: Delwyn can dive for balls
by Candymanfan on Jul 27, 2009 11:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Which is the worse defensive option: Pearce at 1st (too short), or Jones in RF (horrible routes and catching ability)?
Compared to those two at these positions, Delwyn looks like a Gold Glover at 2nd.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 28, 2009 12:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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