Jack Wilson, Ian Snell Traded to Mariners
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 29, 2009 12:48 PM EDT
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PrintThe Pirates get C/1B Jeff Clement, SS Ronny Cedeno, and pitchers Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin and Nathan Adcock. The Mariners also get cash in the deal.
Cedeno isn't great, but he's a reasonable temp replacement for Wilson, allowing the Bucs to keep the newly-acquired Argenis Diaz in the minors.
Clement, the third overall pick in the 2005 draft, is sort of like the Mariners' version of Ryan Doumit; he has upside as a hitter, but the Mariners never really figured out what to do with him, and I'm not sure he has the stick to make it as a starting first baseman. If he's a catcher, he's helpful, but he's not supposed to be much of a defender there, and he has knee trouble. You'd think that the Pirates might play him as their everyday first baseman, but the Post-Gazette is reporting he'll head to Indianapolis. It'll be interesting to see how they use him; he's very major-league ready, so if he plays semi-regularly as a catcher, it could signal another trade, probably of him or Doumit. I think he's a good acquisition, regardless--he's basically stalled at Class AAA Tacoma, but he raced through the minors before that, and again, he was the third overall pick in the 2005 draft. The Bucs are buying low here.
Pribanic, 22, had been pitching for Class A Clinton, and not terribly well--he had a 3.21 ERA, but with only 54 strikeouts in 87 innings. Still, it's his first full pro season, and he was selected in the third round of last year's draft. He seems to have a pretty average starter's arsenal, and he doesn't have much of a strikeout pitch yet, probably because his fastball is fairly straight and his curve isn't very good. You can watch some video of him here. His best pitch is his changeup.
Adcock, 21, has allowed 72 runs in 102 innings at Class A+ High Desert, but you can pretty much throw those numbers out. High Desert is one of the most insane hitting environments in all the minors. He struck out a batter an inning in Class A last year, which is very good.
Lorin, 22, was the Mariners' fifth-round pick in '08, and he might be the real prize here--he's posted excellent numbers for Clinton, with a 2.44 ERA and a strikeout per inning. He's also 6'7" and throws extremely hard. He's a notch behind Rudy Owens as a prospect, but way better than most of the Pirates' other A-ball pitchers.
My first impression is that this is a very good return for two players the Pirates shouldn't really have gotten much for. This trade could end up making the Mariners look very good if Snell returns and pitches well, but he probably wasn't going to do that for the Bucs. Pribanic and Cedeno don't do a lot for me, and I'm not really sure how best to use Clement. But Clement does have some upside, and Adcock and Lorin definitely do too. And any team hoping to contend in a few years needs to have a ton of pitching prospects, since most of them won't work out. Adcock and Lorin instantly enter the discussion about the Pirates' top five pitching prospects. That may not have meant much a few months ago, but with last month's draft, the trade for Jeff Locke, and the emergence of Owens, it does now. A week or so ago I had the sense that Wilson was going to stay with the Pirates because nobody wanted him and that Neal Huntington was going to give Snell away for a bag of balls, and neither of those things turned out to be true. I'm very pleasantly surprised.
This strikes me as a pretty strange trade for the Mariners, who are 7.5 games back in the NL West, 6.5 back in the Wild Card race, and who lost 101 games this year. Even if Wilson and Snell produce for them down the stretch, they probably still won't make the playoffs. They didn't have much use for Cedeno or Clement, but they definitely could have used Adcock and Lorin, since their minor league system isn't terribly deep. Their GM, Jack Zduriencik, does know what he's doing, so maybe he thinks Snell will blossom and then the Mariners will be able to keep him for several more years.
Wilson was never a favorite player of mine, but I will miss his defense, and this marks the end of an era for the Pirates, who've had Wilson as their shortstop since 2001. Pirates fans are going to be upset about this, but Wilson isn't a star player anywhere but Pittsburgh. A decent complementary player and a terrific defensive shortstop, yes. But his hitting prevents him from being any more than that, and that's not going to play any better in a pitchers' park in the American League.
The Pirates might not be done here--rumors have Freddy Sanchez sticking around in San Francisco.
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Pirate booty
Class AAA C/DH Jeff Clement
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=459943
MLB INF Ronny Cedeno
http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6254
Class High A pitcher Nathan Adcock
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=502264
Class Low A pitcher Aaron Pribanic
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=543662
Class Low A pitcher Brett Lorin
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=543466
Pribanic and Lorin were the M’s 3rd and 5th round picks in the ’08 draft and are doing very well in Low A ball.
Sickles
Had Lorin listed as the M’s 18th best prospect with a C grade and both Adcock and Pribanic among the “others.”
The last time Clement was eligible for Sickles’s list (i.e. pre-2008), he graded out as a B+ and the #2 in their system, between Adam Jones and Carlos Triunfel.
Unrelated minor league note
If you look real quick, you might see Jeff Locke looking like a prospect.
charity standing orders
Jinxed the no-no
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
He's still pitching well
Made the last batter of the inning look absolutely retarded apparently. 6 K’s in 5 IN
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Clement
Have to think he becomes plan B behind Pearce at 1B. His defense as a C has always been a question mark. However, it’s nice to have a potential 3rd C around.
I think you’re giving too much credit to Pearce. I may be wrong, but I would guess that Clement has always been a more highly regarded prospect than Pearce. By all rights, he should really step right in at 1b (although I know he isn’t going to).
Per DK, Pearce stays at 1B, Cedeno joins the Bucs and Clement is headed for Indy. My guess is to probably play 1B on a regular basis.
The P-G really needs some better web-monkeys.
Any time the Pirates make a trade, the whole site dies.
May as well give Pearce a shot
Funny coming from me, in light of last week’s Jones-a-thon, but Pearce is here, he’s hitting so far, and there’s no rush on Clement. If Pearce looks like a MLer for the last 200 PAs of the year, he becomes valuable, whether for us or for someone else. If he doesn’t get this shot, then he becomes another AAAA nobody – a trade throw-in at best.
I used to watch Clement play, his defense is not that bad
and he hits some moonshots. I think this is a great pickup.
The ball just got bigger and bigger and then BAM it hit me.
Defense where?
1B or C?
Regardless, I like having an emergency C on the staff – it makes me a bit anxious, and it also makes the manager extremely reluctant to use JJ for anything.
Worth keeping in mind:
Adcock’s performance this year is probably better than his raw numbers, because High Desert is an absolutely cartoonish hitter’s park. It’s right up there with Lancaster and Colorado Springs.
Clement
does this mean the end of Doumit or Diaz (Tigers like him, it seems) or the Pearce experiment?
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What is the Over/Under
Number of fanposts saying this is the last straw, etc., etc. in the next few days?
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
It isn't too bad yet
though the most negative people haven’t commented yet from what I’ve seen. Not a whole oot of opinions being thrown out on there yet.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Yahoo and ESPN will be unbearable for a while. People are already yellin about it
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ESPN
Lord, all their pea-brained, knee-jerk “commentators” will be prattling on about how the Pirates are mistreating their fans.
Ain't that the truth
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A local ESPN radio host here was talking to some baseball guy who actually knew something, basically on the subject of how bad the Pirates are, and the baseball guy kept disagreeing with him, saying we’re headed in the right direction. The host just kept saying the same thing about how they should get rid of the Pirates’ franchise and the other guy eventually just shut up. It was pretty funny.
charity standing orders
Probably Cowherd
He spend 20 minutes last week trashing the Pirates. Bad, too
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I know who you're talking about
but can’t think of his name. He was the guy thathad the nerve to say the Reds were so much better than the Pirates. His logic was ridiculous.
"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)
The more I look at this the more surprising that it is…Far more than what I would have expected for Snell and Wilson.
I liked Jack, will miss him and wish him luck, but he may well have done more for this organization in being traded.
Interestingly not as many villagers wielding torches and pitchforks over on the PBC blog…
Early reaction:
K.Goldstein says it’s the best trade we have made this year.
J.Mayo called it a “pretty good haul” for Pittsburgh.
Not that the comments really matter alot but...
Most of the commenters on mlbtraderumors.com are shocked at how bad this is for Seattle…not that they are the best educated baseball commenters but still interesting.
Absolutely
If Snell pitches anywhere near his stuff, he’s well worth his contract. I realize that’s a big “if,” but it’s not as if Seattle doesn’t have an upside in this trade.
I wonder what their long term plans with Jack are?
Ian Snell says he doesn’t want to pitch in the major leagues. I’m not sure how getting him would be a good thing.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
July 19th, 2009
Snell apparently does not want to be recalled from Triple-A Indianapolis, the Associated Press reports.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought that was more about him not wanting to pitch in Pittsburgh. Nothing to do with the MLB at all.
Huh. I guess it could be. But still, that’s not a good thing for a minor leaguer to be saying.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
we got
a guy who was seattle’s best prospect not named adam jones at the beginning of last season, and three pitchers, the worst of whom is still automatically in our top 10 pitching prospects.
this tells me that at least one of the following is true:
a) zduriencik thinks they can fix snell
b) he thinks they can win now
c) they really want jack’s defense that badly.
i think we know which of those is most likely.
I think they're counting
on the change of scenery to help Snell.
And it very easily might…
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kind of like the Pirates thoughts on Millidge
would be my guess
"I honestly think the "Spread HD" is going to work pretty well, and we’ll be just fine this year". - 8-27-2008
Except Milledge was never bad to begin with. He just wasn’t a superstar like everybody thought he would be. The bar was set so high for him that a perfectly nice major league career looked like failure.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe it is all 3?
i can imagine jack’s defense being in demand
i can also imagine expecting to fix snell- he has been lights out at AAA
and maybe, they are just going for a final fling at the playoffs (this sounds least reasonable)
he has not been lights out at AAA
he still isnt walking batters any less. which merely means he’s facing lesser hitters and getting away with shit he couldnt here in pgh
All the walks were in 1 start
Aside from that start (6 BB in 5 innings? Something like that), I don’t think he’s walked more than 2 in any game – that’s certainly his average.
His strikes have been at least 2/3 of his totals in every start, even the one with all the walks.
He may still come up and nibble, but it’s simply untrue to say that his MiL starts look like his ML ones.
snell
made six starts. i’m pretty sure we can consider 17 K’s against toledo an outlier. that gives us five starts. he walked at least four batters twice, and in his most recent “lack of walks” start, he didnt make it past the fifth inning because he was nibbling so damn much.
Pick your outliers
Look, it’s only 6 games, we don’t need to dick around with outliers and averages.
BB/inn per start: 1/7; 1/7; 1/6; 5/6.1; 4/6; 1/5
So we have 4 starts in which he walked one guy, and 2 in which he walked 4 or 5. Oh, and the start in which “he didnt make it past the fifth inning because he was nibbling so damn much”? He threw 81 pitches in 5 innings. He was pulled for a pinch hitter.
Care to get your facts straight?
i remember something similar to JRoth’s comment… I do know he still walked a couple every time, and had a high pitch count, but he was definitely way better than AAA. He still has something to prove at ML level, but its worth the shot, imo.
Whether it was worth the 3 pitching prospects or not, we’ll see in 3 years
PBC Blog
Going Kablooie
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
It won't load for me.
I can make up some of it in my head just for fun.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 29, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I got in early on the trade page...
and just keep hitting refresh without much issue…its the main page link getting clobbered…
try this one.
http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/pbc/archive/2009/07/29/pirates-trade-to.aspx#comments
“Salary dump!”
“I’d cancel my season tickets if I ever had any!”
“They’ll probably intentionally make sure those young pitchers get hurt so they’ll never have to pay them anything!”
“They got Clement so they can trade Tony Sanchez since he’s doing well now and might make some money some day!”
“Jack Wilson is a future Hall of Famer (even though I just posted yesterday that he sucks)!”
Indeed it is
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
That would actually be smart, WTM
Doumit is gone after 2011, he’s injury-prone, but he’s cheap & promising for 2010 and 2011. I think the Bucs should keep an eye open for trades in the offseason (assuming he finishes strong and healthy).
Not that Clement replaces Doumit long term, but what else is Tony Sanchez for?
Thanks man.
I didn’t think of the last three, but the first two are reruns.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 29, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Really...
They need to be ready for 36-48hrs per year of high volume traffic…have they never performed load testing on their sites?
They have had 12 months to get this right…DK had to set up a Twitter account to deal with the issue…while Twitter is the hot lick trick at present, really no excuse for the website failure again…
It May Well Be A Good Trade
…but this one stings the fan in me. I grew up with Jack. He may not have even been the best player to play for Pittsburgh since PNC opened, but he was the best Pirate, and he will be missed.
Blare some “Jumpin’ Jack Flash” for a minute…
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
Oh man
I totally forgot that Jumpin Jack Flash will be gone from the PNC Park radio…that brought a literal tear to my eye.
by hisjazziness on Jul 29, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
Now you know how I felt when the Pirates came back from the strike in 95 and Andy Van Slyke wasn’t there anymore…
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 29, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Or how the older fans likely felt
when they looked at right field in 1973
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
whoa there...
we didn’t just have a Jack Wilson – Roberto Clemente comparison did we?
I’m glad we’re not going over the top here.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Well yeah.
But Jack Wilson is way better than Clemente.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 29, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
And it's not like he's dead.
He’s just playing for someone else. They aren’t going to chop off his head at the airport…
Only in terms
of people noticing a long tenured pirate being gone. Talent wise, not close. But talent doesn’t always equal liking a player a more. Jack and Roberto may have been equally liked for all I know
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Sigh
I can definitively say that’s not true. If Jack Wilson’s jersey is still the biggest seller in the club store 36 years from now, we’ll know Neil Huntington’s rebuilding plan went awry.
Just stating
that people like players no matter the talent. Wasn’t trying to make Jack look like an equal to Roberto at all.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
I understood what you meant, dude..
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
If Clement didn’t have bad knees that limit him possibly to even DH/PH, it would be an excellent trade. Then again, Clement wouldn’t be in the market if that was the case, so we’ll see.
My instant reaction to the haul is that it is a solid B but that could change depending on where Clement goes. If he can catch even a couple times a week, it was a steal for sure.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 1:21 PM EDT reply actions
I have complained plenty about NH’s trades, about the talent received in those deals.
I absolutely love this trade. Clement is the best piece they have gotten back in ANY of the trades thus far. Even if he can’t stick as a catcher he has a power bat. This team is sorely missing power bats. Hopefully he can learn to play 1B.
Apparently
Mariners will exercise Jack’s option so maybe his deal wasn’t that far off from market value. Pirates also shipping cash, over/under 2.2M?
Anyone think that Clement, GFJ, could go to SF along with Freddy? Or possibly in another of our trades?
Could Freddy and Doumit/ Clement get a top haul from SF? Doumit is a better 1B bat than Garko. Clement is younger.
RIP NATE. RIP TONY PLUSH.
"I'D BE A CHEF"
-TONY PLUSH
Nope
can’t deal Jones or Clement.
We gotta save all our DH’s for interleague play, duh.
True Blue Jazz
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Even if the Pirates wanted to trade Jones...
…who would give up anything of value for a AAA lifer on a hot streak?
Continuing from earlier
Locke’s day is done. Flirted with the no-no for the 2nd time this year. 1 H, 7 K, 0 BB, 1 ER, 1 R, 6 IP
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All I Needed To Hear
From PBC Blog:
Tim Kurjian on ESPN just said this really favors the Mariners and that Pirate fans will be angry.
If Tim Kurjian hates it, I love it.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 1:35 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed
Also saw on the blog that NutHo was the first to present the arrival of “Clemens” (sic) means Doumit will be traded soon idea.
doubt that clement ever sees Catcher again
he will be 1B
The ball just got bigger and bigger and then BAM it hit me.
I think he has much more value as a mediocre catcher than as a first baseman. He’s just not a good hitter.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
really
being a top prospect for 3 years as a hitter isn’t good huh
better than any we have in the minors.
better than…..dare I say……..Garrett Jones
The ball just got bigger and bigger and then BAM it hit me.
He might've been a prospect
has he been hitting though? (Just curious… haven’t looked at any numbers yet)
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He's hitting .286 this year
33 doubles, 14 HRs, 68 RBI’s
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His minor league total OPS is .869, his major league total, from basically half a season, is .701 — not horrible, but not exactly good either.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
but that
is made semi-irrelevantby it being only a half season, and also irregular playing time (everyday for three weeks, then back down for a month, then everyday for a month, then the ASB, then three games in two weeks…youget the idea)
I’d argue that the difference is understated.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
There just isn’t anyone in the AL nearly as weak as the Pirates, Nationals, Padres, Reds, Astros, and Marlins overall, plus the Giants hitting, except for about 2 teams. Their bottom rung is just KC, Oakland, (and Cleveland after the selloff), and the top is twice as strong.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
You just proved that the NL has more teams and less parity. That’s not the same thing as having less overall skill.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I almost waded into this up above
But thought better of it.
The one thing I’ll note is that you have teams like the Royals winning at a .600 clip in interleague over the last 5 years, and the Phils well below .500, which is less likely to indicate absolute quality and more likely to indicate small sample sizes.
Unless you actually want to argue that the Royals are a better team than the Phillies.
No, but there are a lot more good teams, and they are better than the NL’s good teams overall, and half as many bad teams that are slightly better than the NL’s bad teams. Plus the DH factor when comparing pitchers.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
AL is clearly at least some better
It would be flukey for the leagues to be exactly even. I just think a lot of these comments act as if the gap between NL & AL is like that between AAA and MLB. Simply ain’t so.
Well yeah, that’s why I pointed out that it’s just half a season. It’s not definitive. But the point is, I don’t see strong proof that he’s actually a good hitter, just a lack of proof that he’s a bad hitter.
He had a nice season in AAA with a 1000+ OPS, but he has a bunch of seasons where his ops was in the mid 800s. So I think it’s way more reasonable to believe that his 1000 OPS season is the fluke, not that his one nice season proves he’s actually a great hitter who has been hiding it all along.,
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
he just never fit in in Seattle
but he has always looked good.
sell high buy low. pirates way
The ball just got bigger and bigger and then BAM it hit me.
Clement's recent history
2009, AAA – 286/364/501 (OPS 865)
2008, AAA – 335/455/676 (OPS 1131)
2007, AAA – 275/370/496 (OPS 867)
Thats the first thing I saw when I woke up
But they said we traded for a good power prospect and four other guys. And we traded Jack and Snell. I was confused at how that could possibly be bad.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 29, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Love it
We just traded 2 guys who werent kep pieces(a la Nate) and got 5 players back…thats nice. I assume this sets up a Sanchez trade coming soon….and he is better than Wilson and Snell combined, hopefully we can get even more young quality potential.
this is a miracle of a trade
i never would imagine that we could get half of those guys for Jack and Ian.
Clement will fit in, in Pitt. this will be great
The ball just got bigger and bigger and then BAM it hit me.
Not surprised
by that at all
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
you would have to Jack makes a lot and Ian is over paid
The ball just got bigger and bigger and then BAM it hit me.
Unrelated to this trade
Phillies have just traded for Lee and Ben Francisco, it seems.
Giving up Knapp, Carrasco, Donald & Lou Marson.
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I think
a Boston-Blue Jays trade is imminent
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Source?
Just want to know where you got this because nothing has shown up that I can find yet. Of course I don’t really go to that many MLB sites.
Ken Rosenthal
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9866498/MLB-trade-deadline-buzz:-Wednesday%27s-edition
Sorry, should’ve posted that above
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i m surprised
the phillies didnt pull the trigger on halladay with what they gave up. If they could have gotten away with including one of happ or drabek, they should have done it.
I wonder also if they Jays were wrong in insisting on both- it might have cost them a real good haul
But they keep their top three prospects. Great deal for both sides. The only loser here is Toronto.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
2 questions
Well, for the first one, DK just answered it. Cash component has got to be high for this kind of haul. As for the 2nd, which Mariner blogs can you guys refer me to?
M's blogs
USSMariner.com , if it hasn’t crashed.
Lookoutlanding.com is the SBNation one and good as well
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The SB nation
comments were stating how the USS Mariner was going down. So it is probably a safer bet to stick to SB nation
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Poor Jack
Of all the teams the Pirates could have traded him to, they ship him to the worst one possible. So it seems anyway
It’s kind of like if a Cuban athlete would defected to China during the last Olympics
Yeah, but if Freddie goes to San Francisco?
That’s the nearest MLB club to Seattle, right?
They will sort of be together.
by RDV across the sea on Jul 29, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That made me think
there really aren’t a whole lot of teams west of the Mississippi.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Wow.
That’s kinda sad…
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I wonder if that would make him…
angry?
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Horrible trade...
So we get worthless Ronny Cedeno, a 26 year old prosepct, and a pitcher who is getting shelled at A?
Of course he wasn't..
But Jack was still possibly the best gloveman in the league and you get pretty much nothing that will help your team..
I don’t like this deal at all.
Help this team this year, no.
Help this team in the future… potentially.
And that’s what the trades are about.
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how?
How does this help the team in the future? Isn’t it time to call Clement a bust? He is 26 and is what his 3rd year of AAA Ball. Cedeno is horrible and downgrade from Jack. The pitchers are getting lit in A Ball.
I didn’t expect a huge return, but its tought to give up a great defense SS and a pitcher who I believe can turn it around for this.
It’s definitely not time to call him a bust since he was being blocked from the majors pretty effectively. Cedeno is a stopgap who still has some potential, and the two of the pitchers have been doing well the one getting “lit up” is pitching in the biggest launching pad in baseball.
by thecheeseisblue on Jul 29, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
You can't call a guy a bust
when he hasn’t been given a chance in the majors.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Snell
was not turning it around in Pittsburgh. No way. He didn’t even want to come back up to Pittsburgh to pitch.
I wouldn’t call Clement a bust, not just yet. Let’s see what he has first.
Also, based on what I was reading at USSM, it’s more a case of them not knowing where to put him. I’m sure NH has some idea in that regard
And the pitchers were pitching in a hitters park it seems. So getting lit up was expected
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A bust? Are you serious? The only reason he hasn’t been in the majors is because of M’s management incompetence and being blocked at the MLB level. If they didn’t give a horrifically bad contract to Johjima, Clement would have been catching two or three years ago. They never gave him a chance. Mark my words, they will absolutely regret trading a 20-25 HR guy for an all-glove SS and a crappy pitcher.
Why would you expect Snell to turn it around? He got shelled in the worst division in baseball and has dominated a very, very bad IL in a SSS.
Jack was playing some great defense, but he was leaving after the season is over. In return for him and Snell we got 5 players, 4 of which have real potential, who we will have control of for 4-6 years. Not bad.
charity standing orders
And Cedeno
who is probably the best option we have at SS right now.
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Astoundingly Bad
Your reading comprehension skills are astounding.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
What?
Cedeno > Cruz/Bixler. He’s not Jack, but we weren’t expecting another defensive star in return.
And there are 3 pitchers.
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If you are going to troll
at least get your facts right. 3 pitchers at A ball numbnuts
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Know what else you got?
Class-A Clinton:
Brett Lorin – 16 GS, 88.2 IP, 87 K, 24 BB, 61 H, 24 ER, 2.44 ERA
Aaron Pribanic – 17 GS, 87 IP, 31 ER, 3.21 ERA, 2.74 GO/AO, 1 HR
A strikeout pitcher and a guy who induces ground-ball outs.
Look at the number of innings they’ve pitched? These guys could move through the minors fast and end up being key parts of a rotation or bullpen.
Yeah, that’s what else you got. Shut up.
by oc on Jul 29, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you
and I’m also glad you left Lorin’s 9 homeruns off.
"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)
what will payroll be in 2010
assume Freddy leaves soon too, will total payroll be under $15M?
I’m going to miss Jack’s glove, but not his attitude toward Huntington’s rebuilding plan. As for Snell, he has the stuff physically to be a great pitcher, but mentally he might not have it anymore.
Getting a below-average major league SS, a top hitting prospects, and 3 solid pitching prospects in return for a pitcher who’s turned into a bit of a headcase and a SS with great defense but average offense who’ll be a free agent after this season? Possibly your best trade yet Neal.
Akshay R?
BP ’09?
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jul 29, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
We Are Penn State
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jul 29, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
A Clarinet Player
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by Adam Bittner on Jul 29, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I loved the Morgan-Milledge trade, plus the Nady/Marte-Ohlendorf/Tabata has worked out very well. I’d rate this Neal’s third best trade at this point.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, in terms of straight-up return, we got the most potential in this deal alone.
However I do agree that the nady deal has worked out great for us so far considering what the yankees have gotten out of it so far, and the milledge deal’s looking really good based on how well milledge has been in AAA so far.
What was sweet about the Nyjer trade though was that we gave up essentially nothing for something. Snell could still turn into a #2 rotation guy.
charity standing orders
But, but, but
Nyjer is hitting over .300 and you can’t replace what he did off the field.
/sarcasm
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Don't look for Ian in Seattle just yet....
….he’s heading to Tacoma…probably until Washburn is traded. Poor Ian.
Not to mention
Washington isn’t exactly the most sunshine filled place in the world.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
One Thing I'm Confused About
Now that Jack is gone, who is gonna get angry about the Pirates trading away all the good players?
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions
I assumed
it was just there to crash every time a rumor dealing with the Pirates came out.
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Jonathan Mayo on Twitter
FYI: Jeff Clement had been catching bullpens and was going to head back behind plate in game action soon; will Buccos use him there?
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I dunno, but it looks like the pirates have three, decent, young catchers now. That’s not a bad thing.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
JJ & Diaz
are decent…
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Doumit is relatively young i believe
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Ryan Doumit is 29
I was talking about Diaz, Jaramillo, and Clement.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't realize Doumit
was almost 30
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Snell is going to a much, much harder league to pitch in, just the right environment for a turnaround…hahaha
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 2:13 PM EDT reply actions
Dejan, via Twitter
#Pirates paying all but $400,000 of each of Wilson, Snell salaries rest of this season.
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That Should Shut Up The Fans Who Want To Complain About This Being A "Salary Dump."
It should. But it won’t.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
It also won't shut up
the ESPN analysts that call it a salary dump like Tim Kurkjian
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Isn’t it amazing how a man can make a living at something he knows absolutely nothing about?
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
i wonder if they couldnt have made the deal without it… i would certainly have liked cash freed up. I know all the international signings and drafts have separate budgets, but i m sure they can move money around if its available
clement
I think people are too excited about Clement. It was surprising that he never got much of a shot with Seattle, when they have such a light-hitting lineup. He was exclusively DH’ing this year at AAA and doing OK (though as I am typing this, I see that Mayo says he was about to head back behind the plate), but nothing fantastic. I’m skeptical that he will ever be a major league catcher. I think they concluded that he was not the player they thought they were getting with the third pick in the draft, and we shouldn’t be valuing him that way (just like we shouldn’t be valuing Milledge as one of the top prospects in baseball just because that is the way it looked in 2005). It looks now like we have three guys who could be OK at 1B next year — Clement, Pearce, Jones — so at least one of them ought to pan out. Like most of these trades, this will probably come down to the A ball guys. If you start from the premise that we were going to get rid of Snell, then this is clearly a good trade. I wasn’t on board with that. I put Snell in the same upside category as Milledge (except with a better major league resume) and I would have liked to have given him another chance. But even so, it is a reasonable return. We will have to see how it plays out.
I don’t think that Clement is a great player, but even a below average catcher has value. Major league catchers are rare.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
video on clement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnhaiP8SC3w&feature=related
seems like a nice stroke, for a power hitter, it’s not too long of a swing
Clement is a full rung above Pearce as a prospect and not even on the same ladder as Jones.
Ian Snell was a very poor pitcher with no real potential. He was above average for exactly one season. He has a career ERA+ of 90, and he’s posted identical 76 OPS+ marks the past two season. That is simply abysmal. I don’t know why people don’t understand this.
WTM says his knees are shot
In which case he’s absolutely not a “full rung above.”
Players don’t decline at age 30+ because they get bored of playing baseball; they do it because their bodies start to break down, esp. around the knees.
Where have you gone, Kevin Young?
Sorry about that
I thought that was a decent overstatement of:
If his knees are too bad to play C (or even 1B) at AAA as a 26-y.o., they’re too bad to play 1B in the bigs as a 30-y.o.
I don’t think Clement catches even short term. He has bad knees. I’m sure there was a reason he was almost exclusively a DH in AAA this year.
IMO.
The Amazing Thing About This Trade
Is that no one saw it coming. Everybody was looking at the rosters of the teams who were close to winning a pennant and trying to figure out who needed a shortstop. The Mariners are not going to win this year, with Jack or without.
You can’t always count on GMs to do predictable things, or to have a great plan. Sometimes, GMs make moves that are just weird.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions
trade thoughts
1. I wonder if Jack won’t now go to Boston in a Washburn deal.
2. I’m surprised by the quality of the return, though I have my doubts about Clement.
3. I still think the deal with the Nats was the best of the NH era so far.
4. I was in favor of keeping the MI intact, but this return seems legit. Absolutely no reason to keep Freddy now.
5. I hope that an equally intelligent strategy will be employed in the free agent market this winter.
6. I still think we may deal a SP.
7. I love that NH isn’t waiting until the last second as a matter of policy, as DL did.
8. Bucs ma be sending Clement to Indy because he already has 75 games of experience. If he stays down all/most of this year, would it make 2010 hid rookie year?
Good day.
by Uncle Nate on Jul 29, 2009 2:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Today's lineup - no Freddy
Cutch CF
Luigi 3B
Young 2B
Jones LF
Pearce 1B
Moss RF
Vazquez SS
JJ C
Duke P
Way to reward Cruz for his nice game yesterday. lol
Freddy was expected to be out
to rest his knee, thought the conspiracy theorist in me wants to say to protect from further injury so he can be dealt.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
And of course, he wouldn’t be in the lineup for today if he’s on the cusp of being traded right now.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
As I said last night, one rumor said the Pirates and Giants had agreed on all of the pieces for a Sanchez trade. The Ginats doctors examined Sanchez. If that’s the case…and they still list him as their #1 target. I have to think we will see a Freddy deal announced after today’s game. It would have been a PR nightmare to trade Freddy to SF and have him start against us the same day.
Agree
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Yeah, but
it’d be funny as shit if it did happen.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
No Doumit huh?
Sorry…just stirring the pot.
"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)
Wow
A blog where Pirates fans don’t have knee-jerk reactions to everything and talk logically? I didn’t know this type of place existed…do i need an avatar to be accepted?
In all seriousness, I love the site, finally figured I’d just sign-up. Also, like the trade…we give up money to increase the haul. Solid “baseball move.”
Would like to see Cruz at SS today though, rather than RV. Meh.
This truly is the happiest place on Earth.
You know, more or less.
by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Jul 29, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
You should also
check out www.whygavs.com
Pat does some good work there.
Clement
Everyone should probably quit thinking of Clement as a C. Even the Pirates official press release says they picked up “first baseman Jeff Clement.” I think the only way he plays any C for the Pirates is as the emergency 3rd C.
Well, if that’s the case, then he’s kind of a lame first baseman. Oh well.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably not any lamer than Mario…
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on Jul 29, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
While the league is harder, I think Ian could benefit from playing in Seattle’s giant pitchers park.
Playing in Houston, Cincinatti, Wrigley and against Milwaukee so much probably isn’t great for a guy who has a gopher ball problem. Good luck to him though.
RIP NATE. RIP TONY PLUSH.
"I'D BE A CHEF"
-TONY PLUSH
Yeah, but
he’ll have to deal with the Angels now—if he nibbles against them, they’ll steal him blind and hit-and-run like there’s no tomorrow.
Also, if he was scared of Mil/Hou…wait ’til he gets to face Texas.
Especially in Texas' ballpark
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
He'll be great for the rest of this season.
Then his ‘spiky’ personality will get in the way and he’ll start blaming other people that he got mashed in Fenway or Yankee stadium.
by RDV across the sea on Jul 29, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously
If PNC Park is too much pressure for him, he’s probably not cut out for Safeco or Yankee Stadium.
Jeez.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Depth, depth, depth, depth!
The Buccos are deeper at pretty much every position than they were at the start of this season and Clement being a C/1B is typical of NH’s moves.
Let’s complete the fire sale (good thing!) with Freddie traded straight up for a good young AA or AAA middle infielder.
by RDV across the sea on Jul 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT reply actions
If we’re trading him straight up, then I’d have to get a AAA infielder for it to be ok. I mean, for all his injury troubles, Freddy is still a 3-time all star and a former NL Batting champ.
I’d guess that if we can pull off this trade with the Giants, we’ll get a AA infielder and 1 or 2 pitching prospects as well, but that’s complete speculation cause i have no idea what’s actually going to happen.
The rumors are if he goes to SF that we are getting two quality propspects or a MLB player (maybe J.Sanchez) and another prospect.
Would it be worth it to trade them Sanchez/Duke
For Alderson, a MI prospect, and maybe another pitcher or two? Gives them insurance for Johnson and gives us a 5-star pitching prospect…?
I'm really not sure either
He’s actually a personal favorite, but I see his name out there, so I speculate. Dealing him would be a blow to me, as he was one of the guys who finally got me back into the Pirates when he made his run through the minors…
I think the sense is that he’s playing above his head, he’s not under contract as long as Maholm, and as the defense goes, so goes his value.
charity standing orders
Contracts
Contracts are one thing that always get overlooked when evaluating a player’s value. Sure, Duke is okay, but how long is his contract for? If and when he’s traded, we’re not trading away his entire career, past, present and future, we’re trading away whatever the remainder of his contract is.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
He avoided arbitration when he signed a one-year contract this winter. He’s signed through 2011. He’s eligible for arbitration in 2012.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Not according to
this, which says he’s a FA in 2012.
Which makes sense – he came up in 2005, and has pitched full time in 6, 7, 8, & 9. 10 and 11 makes 6 years of team control.
I’m not sure Burris excites me…and the only way I would want Velez is if we are not able to get Eric Young Jr. from Colorado.
Rockies have had their eye on Grabow and Capps. We probably would need to put something with Grabow to get him. I would think Capps would bring more than just EYJ.
OMG Caps for EJY?
If that were offered, Neil would be a fool to not pull the string immediately.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree. I was looking recently at who our top 10ish prospects would be, and Lincoln is the only guy on the list from preseason 2008. None of this Shelby Ford, Duke Welker shit.
charity standing orders
Not to mention that Morton, Milledge and possibly Clement won’t be on that list because they are already or soon will be with the big club. Plus Joel Hanrahan is clearly better than some of the other stiffs we have tried in the pen.
Every time that I saw Duke Welker in our top 10 prospects I bled from my eyes a little bit.
by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Jul 29, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
People have complained that the Pirates aren’t deep enough at middle infield, and they’re probably right. But now we’re younger and deeper at middle infield than we were six months ago. So, we’re on the right track.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
What I don't understand
is how NutHo & Daquizzi (or whatever fuck his S/N is) on the PBC Blog type so well with only one hand…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
Daquido
was pretty much my breaking point. Everything is a swindle to him. I think someone in the FO stole his wife from him…
Can't connect there
Has this been called a salary dump yet?
It’s been called that among many things. It’s just a big swindle. This team won’t spend money (the 3+ mill we spent be damned!).
Or something like that.
It’s unbearable reading some of the comments—don’t hurry to connect.
They're on their way.
Mostly it’s the typical “Nutting lining his pockets” bullshit.
Even though we are sending ca$h in the deal.
They’re just shit-stirrers who like to rile the Yinzers & 3 actual Pirate fans who are on the site.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually posted semi-regularly
But I’ve had it.
hyzdu
You don’t need to pull out ERA+ to prove that Snell has been terrible the last two years. But Clement batted .235 over two years in Seattle and Milledge played his way out of both NY and Washington. At least Snell pitched at an all-star level for half a season, and he has good enough stuff to succeed in the majors. All of these guys are prospects with upside and not sure things. My points were just: 1) Snell belongs in the same conversation with guys like Milledge that we are giving up useful assets for, and we shouldn’t just toss him away (as it turns out, we didn’t toss him away; we included him in a useful trade); 2) I think some people overvalue prospects based on what was once their high water mark as a prospect (BA #9 in 2005; No. 3 pick). After a few years, that stuff shouldn’t count as much. But we can agree to disagree.
I don’t mean to overstate the case. If Clement can play first (which may be a big “if”), then he seems a better bet to be our starter next year than Pearce. Not sure where to put Jones, though I am not in your “he has no chance” camp.
slap in the face
wow how surprising the pirates traded a fan favorite and a young arm away for more young in experienced players they have got to keep some veterans on this team
wonder what there team would look like if they would keep everyone
Mcclouth bay and nady in the outfield is a great start and mccutchen and jones are holding there own but this is just another slap in the face to pirates fans
O really, you think your funny well Fukudome!!!
They are in the same position
this year in the standings as last with that outfield you mentioned…actually, it isn’t even worth arguing, some people just won’t ever get it.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Ian Snell Is 28
The Pirates didn’t trade away a young arm. In this deal, the Pirates got three young arms.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
"wonder what there team would look like if they would keep everyone"
Same losers, a new day has come
you must have reached here in error. i believe this is the site you were looking for.
Haven't we had the debate
about keeping Bay McClouth and Nady about 100 times already? I know they do daily at PBC but still. Seriously, those guys were playing over their heads. We’d be sitting here wondering why Nate is batting .259, when Nady will come off the DL, and when Jason Bay’s knees would finally give out. Nate’s OPS has dropped 40 points from last year to this year, Nady hasn’t played most of the year, and Jason Bay’s “breakout season” in Boston has his OPS down 15 points and his OPS+ is down 11 points. The RBI’s are a completely situational statistic based on the circumstances of his at-bats. Translation: They were all playing over their heads.
Playing over their heads.
Which makes the Nady and McLouth deals look all that much better as time goes by.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 29, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Ian Snell Is 28
The Pirates didn’t trade away a young arm. In this deal, the Pirates got three young arms.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 3:05 PM EDT reply actions
Heyman on Twitter
#sfgiants in serious talks for freddy sanchez. franzen and bowker 2 of many names discussed.
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That's almost as good as
for Salazar
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Can we just call him
:( ?
Though I assume we should wait until he proves to us he’s not the next Garrett Jones/Chris Duffy guy.
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Balentien to Cincy
I guess it was clear since we just dealt with them that we weren’t very interested.
With who they got for him
The Pirates must have not been interested at all.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
I Do Wonder
What in the world is the Mariners’ GM doing?
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
This trade doesn't appear to make much sense
from their end. They aren’t that close to competing year in and year out. They gave up a lot of potential for guy that you know what you are getting. Good move by NH
"Everybody panic! If you have a small child, use it as a shield! They love tender meat."
I think that Dave Littlefield secretly flew up to Seattle from Chicago, disguised himself as their real Gm Jack Zduriencik, and is trying to bring down their organization too…lol
By all accounts Jack Z is the real deal. Check out the moves he’s pulled off since taking over. not the least of which are picking up branyan for nothing and completely fleecing the Royals into taking Betancourt off his hands
RIP NATE. RIP TONY PLUSH.
"I'D BE A CHEF"
-TONY PLUSH
The Betancourt deal was a heartbreakingly brilliant maneuver o the part of Jack Z. But I still fail to see his larger plan. Are they trying to win this year? No. What about next year? Not really. Long term then? Not that either.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Balentin (sp?)
is not a very good defensive OF, I don’t think.
I suppose that had something to do with it.
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Jen Langosch on Twitter
Source: Giants to examine Sanchez’s knee Wednesday afternoone; deal is in place if all is OK;
… would not involve Bucs receiving any Major League players in return. More shortly.
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Frandsen and Bowker were both shipped back to AAA I believe. I hope those are not the guys we get in return.
agreed
frandsen’s OPS+ this year is -8. tiny sample size but i don’t remember seeing one that was actually negative before.
Dejan, via twitter
denies any deal is in place
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DK
reporting that Freddy made a counter-offer yesterday
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
The New York Post Is Famous For Their Reliability
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 29, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
FSN interviewing jack on the telecast
he’s very emotional. must be tough for the guy. say what you want about him but he always cared.
He could always come back
in free agency in a year or so..be a backup utility guy. Doubt hat it would happen but if he likes Pitt so much why not?
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
That's true.
After all is said and done, today we have lost a good Pirate. Hope he gets a chance to contend with the M’s over the next couple pf seasons.
by RDV across the sea on Jul 29, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Jack Wilson is a class act who plays the game the way it should be played. Glad to have been able to see him play. I think my lasting memory of him will be the other night when he appeared out of nowhere in left field and threw the runner out at third base. Always hustled! I wish him all the best in Seattle.
by MrBasebrawlwer on Jul 29, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
God I can't wait for Steeler season
If only so I can quit hearing the bitching about the trades the Pirates are making. On ESPN One Eye, Mumbley Steeler, and Guy-who-wishes-he-weren’t-doing-a-sports-show are of course acting like the Pirates just traded Hanley Ramirez for Jack Wilson. And of course the callers are too.
Link Dump on the new guys
(sorry is I should not be posting a link to a post of my own)
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Don't know if anyone has mentioned this about Cedeno
but he’s 26 years old as opposed to the 32-year old Wilson. And, Cedeno also can play 2B, 3B, and outfield. Now, I’m not saying that a well-rounded back-up should be our goal in trades, but as 1 of many pieces we got back, this adds to his value in my book.
For those who can't afford insider
Clement: dead-pull-hitting catcher who can’t really catch and has had significant trouble staying healthy; it’s not clear to me where he fits with an NL club, particularly one that has a fringy defensive catcher who can’t stay healthy in Ryan Doumit
The 3 A-ball pitchers
Righty Aaron Pribanic, 22, has a very quick arm and, as a starter, a 91-93 mph two-seamer with good tailing life that he uses down in the zone, generating a high ground ball rate (63 percent) this year in Low-A, a level for which he’s too old and too experienced. His splitter is his best secondary pitch, and he tends to overthrow his slider. Ground ballers who throw strikes — Pribanic isn’t quite there yet with his control — can survive as back-end starters in the majors, but in the ‘pen, he could move very quickly and end up sitting 93-95 with that same life. Brett Lorin, also 22 and pitching in Low-A , is a big right-hander with average stuff (88-91 mph fastball, average change, fringe-average curveball that he doesn’t command well). He gets on top of his fastball for great downhill plane but hasn’t converted that into more ground balls. Like Pribanic, he was a level below where a high-draft-pick college product belongs in his first full pro season. Nathan Adcock is a 21-year-old right-hander with a solid, average fastball and some physical projection left; he has shown an above-average curveball in the past but has leaned more heavily on his changeup this year. The California League (High-A) is a bad environment for young pitchers, and his home park, High Desert, is a terrific hitters’ park. So he might benefit just from the switch to the Carolina League (also High-A). It’s an interesting package of A-ball pitching for the Pirates, but it’s not a return to get excited about.
Good deal
Good luck to Jack Wilson. He played the game the right way. I will miss him. As for Ian Snell, good riddance. A head case. Hope Seattle has a good shrink for him.
I love this trade!! This isn’t a package of blue chip prospects or anything, but this package was a steal for the Pirates. The Seattle fans are going crazy on their board. Clement is a good player, but the key to his success (like Doumit) is staying healthy. If he can stay healthy, watch out. I think he could really take off. Cedeno? He’s a solid player, but nothing special. Maybe a change of scenery will wake his bat up a little bit. We got three very young pitching prospects that have a TON of upside. How in the world Huntington got five players back in return for Jack Wilson and Ian Snell is beyond me. He worked his magic. Getting two major league ready players and three high-upside Single-A pitchers is a great haul for a 32-year-old SS that makes $8M/year and a pitcher in Ian Snell that can’t get it done at the major league level and is a major headcase. Great job Neal.
not a bad deal
who would have thought that we would get 5 players for jack and ian??? not me i thought it would be for a double-A player who would amout to a 4th outfielder. clement needs to get up to the majors tho. i think pearce is a waste of time. although i think that jones maybe the possible first-baseman answer. but i think the time is right for milage to come up and see what he can do. i would have liked to get an MLB ready pitcher. too bad that we have no real answer for the SS hole. cedeno has no real future with us or any other major league team. but hopefully he can play solid defense and it wont matter because the line-up will have some real hitters. id really like to see clement get called up this season. But after most of the trades are done i have to say that i am interested in seeing how the team will look. and that there mite be some hope for our pitiful pirates.
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