Pirates Trade Freddy Sanchez to Giants for Tim Alderson
by Charlie on Jul 29, 2009 6:56 PM EDT
280 comments
The Post-Gazette reports that the Bucs have traded Freddy Sanchez to the Giants for pitching prospect Tim Alderson. The Bucs won't send any cash to the Giants in this deal.
Alderson, 20, is a solid starting pitching prospect whose specialty is control. He was the Giants' first-round pick in the 2007 draft, and he made short work of the low minors. He also has a good breaking ball. He doesn't have much of a fastball, though, and may struggle some as he moves up the chain. He's a much better bet than most 20-year-old pitchers to be a fairly productive major league starter, but he probably won't be a superstar, and all 20-year-old pitchers are risky. Alderson is young for Class AA, but the fact that he only posted 46 strikeouts there this year in 72.7 innings is worrisome for a pitcher of his type.
For what it's worth, though, John Sickels rated him a "borderline A-" prospect before the season, which is very good.
I'm excited to have Alderson in the organization, but the chance that the Pirates get nothing from this deal is fairly high, and I'm not sure Alderson's upside--I'd say he's a #3 or borderline #2 starter if all goes well--is worth it. I can certainly see why the Pirates made this move, and I think it's nice to balance the grab bags they got in the Jack Wilson and Nate McLouth trade with a riskier deal for more of a blue-chip player, but I'm not sure Alderson is the right blue-chip player. I really hope he proves me wrong, though.
There's a really good writeup on Alderson here. There might be some hidden upside in this deal if his changeup develops, but then that's true of about a billion pitching prospects. I've never seen Alderson pitch, so I'm open to the idea that this is a good deal, but his strikeout numbers do worry me some.
The key here, I suppose, is that the Pirates weren't going to get much for Sanchez; his option next year will be for close to market value, so there was little reason for any team to give up the farm for him. That the Pirates got a guy a lot of people consider one of the Giants' top prospects is, I guess, to their credit. It's just that Alderson really isn't the sort of prospect that gets me going.
People never seem to talk about this with regard to players who have already been drafted, but if you go to Baseball Prospectus and look at the PECOTA comparables on a bunch of prospects' player pages, what you'll see is that, with blue-chip hitting prospects, most of the top comparables are usually guys who had good major-league careers. Let's take the Blue Jays' Travis Snider, for example--his top comparables before the season included Prince Fielder, Derrek Lee, Cliff Floyd, Eric Chavez, Paul Konerko and a bunch of guys who are still prospects. But if you look at Rick Porcello, a pitching prospect widely considered to be more valuable than Snider, the comparables include Roy Halladay right at the top, and Jon Garland a bit farther down the list, but they also include tons of flameouts--comparables #2, 3 and 4 are Matt Drews, Jamie Arnold and Sean Burnett. If I were the Tigers' GM and I were offered Snider for Porcello, I would probably do that trade, despite how Snider has played this year.
This isn't because PECOTA has some bias against pitchers. It's because pitchers are, by their nature, extremely risky, much riskier than most prospect lists would lead you to believe. This is why it's mostly dumb to pick them early in the draft. The way to get them, in my opinion, is to do exactly what Neal Huntington had done before today--grab high-risk arms late in the draft, and pick up others (such as Jeff Locke, Bryan Morris and the guys in the Jack Wilson trade today) in package deals. Not all of them will work out, so you focus on quantity and upside and don't focus too much on any one of them. Alderson is less risky than most prospects his age, but there's still a strong possibility that he'll have some catastrophic arm injury or lose velocity or struggle with his mechanics or any number of the other weird things that happen to young pitchers.
Is the upside here worth the risk? I'm not sure it is. I'm not sure it isn't, either, but this trade still makes me a little uneasy. I know that every prospect guru is going to say this is a great trade for the Pirates, and I understand why they're going to say it, and I hope they're right. But I'm not really sure most of prospectdom's chattering class really evaluates pitchers properly. That's my humble opinion, at least.
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Does he still refuse
to pitch out of the wind up?
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 6:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
from mlbtr
This is an impressive haul for Sanchez—Alderson was ranked the #4 prospect in the Giants’ system by Baseball America. What we thought was a salary dump has turned into a coup for the Pirates.
by johnnycuff on Jul 29, 2009 6:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is an impressive haul for Sanchez—Alderson was ranked the #4 prospect in the Giants’ system by Baseball America. What the Post-Gazette, Dejan Kovacevic, and the Yinzers thought was a salary dump has turned into a coup for the Pirates.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 30, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NH
Exec of the year……we’ll maybe two years from now if it all works out. WTM or Vlad, how many guys on the 40 man when FC and NH took over are still on it? 7-8?
by dtoddwin on Jul 29, 2009 7:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
By my count, seven. I think Chavez and Bixler were added after DL got the axe, but I’m not absolutely sure.
by WTM on Jul 29, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even the parrot got better this year, he won the mascot homerun derby contest.
by glass0941 on Jul 29, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to trust your count.
DL was fired on September 8. Bixler was rostered on November 20.
Chavez wasn’t added until 2008.
by Vlad on Jul 29, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DL was fired on September 8.
How come we don’t celebrate that day?
by WTM on Jul 29, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because.
It’s actually on September 7th.
I just remember being really pumped that day and then that night went out to my best friend’s birthday party.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 29, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m done caring about what some fans and national media think about the Pirates, and how they are a joke of a franchise. Neal Huntington is doing the right thing, and this team will be competitve in a couple years. They better get their laughs in while they can because they will be eating their words in a few years.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DITTO
I second the nomination of Mr. Huntington for Exec of the Year…
by Coach Clemente on Jul 30, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said in the other thread, it is a great deal because of both Freddy’s age and questionable health. Alderson is pretty much a sure-fire big league starter, the only question now is will he be back-end or closer to the front.
Great value to be happy about overall as a Bucs fan. We just traded Wilson, Snell, and Freddy Sanchez for a boatload of talent, including blue-chippers Clement and Alderson.
The future is really looking up for the Buccos.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 7:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Totally agree. Clement needs to stay healthy in order to really hit his potential, but now the Pirates are moving him to 1B permanently, I don’t think it’s going to be a problem anymore.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to the P-G
Clement will get looks at both 1B & C.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh...
well, I watched the video posted on the P-G website about the trade and Huntington said in the press conference that Clement was going to strictly be a 1B. Who knows?
My thinking is that surely they will keep him at 1B because:
1. We don’t have an answer there (no, Pearce will not be the answer)
2. His injury problems.
3. His defensive skills at the catching position are very suspect.
4. We have good depth at catcher with Doumit and Sanchez.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do really think, though, that if he can stay healthy, he can break out and reach his full potential. The guy was the third overall pick in the 2005 draft for a reason.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From P-G blog:
“UPDATE 4:53 p.m.: Manager John Russell said Jeff Clement will acclimatize at Class AAA Indianapolis for a week or so, then the Pirates will reassess his future — though it seems likely they’ll test him as a backup catcher and first baseman, what with Steve Pearce slated to get the bulk of the rest of the season’s playing time at that last spot.”
Who knows?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alderson-Lincoln-Ohlendorf
Would be a kick ass 2011 rotation
by BadAndy on Jul 29, 2009 7:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Shaping up to be
Morton-Lincoln-Alderson-Ohlendorf +1. Probably one of Duke or Maholm if they aren’t traded. If one is traded and the other stays, no battle. If both are traded, maybe Gorzo?
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 29, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, my bad. I was thinking next year, not 2011.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 29, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lincolin..
I hope he can turn it around, haven’t been impressed with him in AAA so far.
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2011
I think a 2011 rotation looks more like this:
Lincoln-Morton-Alderson-Owens-Ohlendorf
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 29, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Charlie Morton going to throw his arm out before then?
by Brakeman8 on Jul 29, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you jinx him...
…I will hunt you down like an animal and murder you in your sleep, so help me God.
by Vlad on Jul 29, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll go with you
I really like Morton, I think he can be a #1 guy
by SteelCity G on Jul 29, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just can’t help but think of a mere year ago, when we were all rooting for Yoslan Herrera to come through on the major league level. Now there’s gold in them there farm teams.
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yoslan?
Damn, where’s Gunner? We need somebody to explain how there’s no plan.
by WTM on Jul 29, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soon, we trade Salazar for Matt Wieters. Neal Huntington: miracles happen.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 29, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn, where’s Gunner?
You, of course, realize that those words have never before been written together in the history of the world.
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just don't say it
three times, unless you’re prepared to deal with the consequences.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm good with the deals...
But it’s gonna be brutal watching what’s left at the big league level until we start promoting the Milleges & Clements.
Good day.
by Uncle Nate on Jul 29, 2009 7:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. This offense is just horrendous. Get Milledge up now and get freakin’ Brandon Moss on the bench where he belongs!
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe they're gunnin
for next year’s Top 5 pick
by BadAndy on Jul 29, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude....
take a valium and enjoy the day! What a two months!
by dtoddwin on Jul 29, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, give me a break. He was talking about Milledge and how brutal it’s going to be for the next two months, which it is, so I talked about it. Haha, but I am enjoying all of this. In my opinion, these trades have been awesome. Neal Huntington will get this thing turned around.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I AM kinda puzzled why the reluctance to get their trade acquisitions to the bigs. It’s not like Milledge and Clement haven’t played above class A.
by WTM on Jul 29, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I have no idea why Milledge is up. Huntington says the team wants him to work on some things with his approach, but eh.
Clement is probably being blocked by Pearce’s courtesy chance. He also has no options left, so they may just be waiting until September, though I think I read somewhere that he’ll be up next week.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 29, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hasn't Milledge's BA
dropped like 100 points in the last 2 weeks or so?
I could be wrong…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe, but he’s still hitting very close to .300
by Jett on Jul 29, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Naw. He’s right at .289 (as of last night).
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough question....
I think it is just a matter of who sits if they did and since those guys are already down, it’s easier to keep them there and make sure they get an evaluation of Moss, Pearce and Jones as best they can. I think Milledge is guaranteed a starting job next year. The rest are up in the air. Just my opinion.
by dtoddwin on Jul 29, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a haul for you guys
NH is really making up for his just OK trades earlier in the year.
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Jul 29, 2009 7:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Okay trades?
Really? Look again, my friend.
by dtoddwin on Jul 29, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok trades?
We got Delwyn Young, a very good hitter, for virtually nothing.
We got Michael Dubee for journeyman ANDY PHILLIPS, which didn’t look like much at the time, but Dubee has been straight up ridiculous and could be in Triple-A before the end of the season. This may be the best trade of them all.
We got Gorkys Hernandez, Charlie Morton and Jeff Lock for Nate McLouth, all while adding Andrew McCuthen to the mix.
I’d say those were pretty dang good trades!
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know. Just thought about that. How in the world did I forget him?
AND Milledge, too. Haha
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woah there
Dewlyn Young was a good no-risk move, but I’m not going to declare him a “very good hitter” or even a “good hitter” with his flukey BABIP buoying all his offensive stats.
The Nate McLouth trade was a push, although it’s the right direction for the pirates. Ideally, you get more for an all-star outfielder under team control.
Michael Dubee will probably end up a good reliever. Good to have, but nothing earth shattering.
Milledge move I like, because I’m a huge Milledge-fan, but I understand the argument against that trade.
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Jul 29, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Dubee
yeah, but you’re not going to get anything earth-shattering for Andy Phillips no matter how hard you try.
True Blue Jazz
Thoughts From The Couch
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 29, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no doubt
good trade, but not something tenure-defining
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Jul 29, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
but still, it’s better than just an “ok” trade
True Blue Jazz
Thoughts From The Couch
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 29, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From BP earlier in the week…Joe Sheehan was talking about how the Giants should trade Alderson for 2 hitters:
“You can’t get Cliff Lee and Martinez in an Alderson deal. If the A’s and Mariners had hitters, they’d be playing them. Same for the Pirates and Padres, unless you can somehow get Freddy Sanchez and Adrian Gonzalez in the same trade. Maybe the two teams can share Alderson.”
Pretty sweet for us to get him for Freddy alone (and cash I’m sure).
by mak_DC on Jul 29, 2009 7:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how Sheehan is going to rip this trade? He never says anything positive about the Bucs.
by WTM on Jul 29, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’re tearing it all down, and I’m totally fine with that.
Stomaching a total tear down sucks no doubt, but we’ve been putting up with mediocre baseball with no end in sight for 17 years now. It’s going to be avert-your-eyes bad watching the middle infield for the time being, but I can take it if it means we do smart stuff like this.
I never lost interest in the Pirates, but there were times in the early 2000s when I pretty much lost all hope. I still loved the team, but I never once felt like we were on the right path. Now I do.
by CptnAwesome on Jul 29, 2009 7:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what’s amazing is that despite this huge teardown that’s going on, we’re still only 15 games below .500. Despite trading our best players for prospects, we’re no better or worse than otherwise, so through everything, Huntington’s made great trades and moves to build up our farm system to the point now that it’s one of the best in the league, all while not letting the ML team drop off at all.
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I keep refreshing the Giants’ SB Nation blog, just to see how pissed off the Giants fans are about this! It’s making me happier than the actual trade itself!
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 7:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They were making a big deal earlier this year that Sabean had wised up and learned his lesson about giving up young arms when he turned down the Tim Lincecum for Alex Rios deal.
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Alderson is as good as Lincecum, and Sanchez sucks as bad as Rios?
Thought not.
by FreshStart on Jul 30, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i just came from over there
to tell you how much i hate you.
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
by jasomack on Jul 30, 2009 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The schadenfreude wouldn't be nearly as tasty...
…if you guys hadn’t spent all morning laughing about how you were going to take us to the cleaners.
So thanks for that.
by Vlad on Jul 30, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if
they hadn’t given us Matt Morris
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 30, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any word on money yet?
I assume NH had to pay SF Matt Morris money to make this trade.
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 7:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just gotta let it out…oh hell yeah! If you aren’t excited about what the Pirates/N.H. are doing right now, youre just missing the boat. Raise the Jolly Roger….:-/
by Rennie on Jul 29, 2009 7:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
God bless Brian Sabean
McCovey’s Chronicle’s take
This deal came out of nowhere. The Pittsburgh Pirates traded Freddy Sanchez to San Francisco for Tim Alderson. Ugh
by BadAndy on Jul 29, 2009 7:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brian Sabean = the new Dave Littlefield (except Sabean’s team is actually in contention)
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dejan on Twitter
No cash in Sanchez trade
True Blue Jazz
Thoughts From The Couch
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 29, 2009 7:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
DOUBLE WOW!
What goes around come around
by BadAndy on Jul 29, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bwa ha ha!!
I think maybe the MRI was to make sure then that the Giants can put Freddy on IR so his option doesn’t vest. They were checking him out to make sure he was injured, not that he wasn’t?
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is unbelievable
I’ve got to be dreaming…
by Jett on Jul 29, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
these are the type of moves that should have been made 5-6 years ago….it’s about time. maybe they don’t pan out, but at least finally, deals that make sense..
by jsn4219 on Jul 29, 2009 7:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Unrelated to this trade
the Rockies aren’t willing to give up EYJ for Grabow, so they’re aiming lower for RP help.
True Blue Jazz
Thoughts From The Couch
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 29, 2009 7:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Douchebags Colorado are
You see Brian Sabean thats how you aim low and then meet in the middle NOT shoot for the stars
by BadAndy on Jul 29, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone have
the stats comparisons for Felipe Lopez and Sanchez and what each team got in prospects in the respective deals this year?
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 7:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations. You guys just got payback for Schmidt and Morris.
by HaroldS on Jul 29, 2009 7:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't call it even yet
unless they had thrown Bumgarner in
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what if we traded Sanchez AND Maholm
We coulda got Bumgarner!
by BadAndy on Jul 29, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No money involved?
This is obviously a salary dump!!!! Same old Pirates. Oh wait, wrong blog.
by Slick1 on Jul 29, 2009 7:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!
Nutting want to get—wait, no money?
Well, still, it must be a trick of some sort with THIS FO…
;-)
by Yotum on Jul 29, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve never really liked Alderson’s K-rate, but this I don’t see how this isn’t a substantial win for the Pirates. Scouts apparently love him though. Keith Law on Alderson from earlier this year: "if the changeup improves at all with use, his plus-plus command and out-pitch breaking ball give him the upside of a No. 2 or 3 starter. "
by wickethewok on Jul 29, 2009 7:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
had him at
- 26 on his top 100 of ’09. and said “He sits with a solid-average fastball at 90-94 mph with the promise of more velocity in the future, and his hard curveball is already plus, with tight rotation and a late two-plane break.”
by jsn4219 on Jul 29, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well consider Zach Duke doesn’t really strike out people. Alderson sounds like a Duke, with perhaps a better fastball?
by lfhlaw on Jul 29, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
alderson is 6-7 so he has a projectable frame, and is only 20 in AA ball.
by jsn4219 on Jul 29, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
SF Chronicle says
Bucs must have given SF $2M. Otherwise, this does not make sense.
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 7:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
6:19pm: Kovacevic says that no money is being exchanged in the Sanchez deal, which makes it all the more impressive for the Pirates. Keith Law (Insider) recently ranked the 20-year-old Alderson the 26th-best prospect in all of baseball.
by Tripon on Jul 29, 2009 7:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Even Matt Capps can't get me down today.
That’s gold, Jerry! Gold!!
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 7:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Could it be...
Perhaps there is something to this Littlefield karma/payback thing. Let’s see who still owes us big time, Chicago!?!
by pizibao on Jul 29, 2009 7:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who doesn't?
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Schmidtxc on Jul 29, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Rangers.
They took Kip Wells and gave us the Ryan Braun homerun machine known as Jesse Chavez.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 29, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Charlie...
throwing a little rain on the parade in his updated post above.
by dtoddwin on Jul 29, 2009 7:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This day is still a big winner for me overall. To me the Wilson deal is terrific, the Sanchez deal is at least ok.
by Charlie on Jul 29, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what were you expecting for sanchez?
the rumored jonathan sanchez and prospect deal? with giving 0 dollars to SF and get a prospect with Aldersons pedigree, i think they did very well.
by jsn4219 on Jul 29, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely. Just think about both trades that were made by NH today. We all thought that we would be lucky to get basically any kind of prospects for Jack and Ian. We get a very good deal (5 players/prospects) that I believe is a steal, including a former 1st-rd. pick. Then, we trade Freddy Sanchez, who we thought would get us something a little better than Jack/Ian, but nothing great given his history of injuries and his contract. Well, we get one of the best prospects in the entire Giants system for Sanchez. A pretty good day of trades for NH and the Pirates considering what everybody thought we would get back for these guys.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that there is a lot of risk with young pitchers. But you forgot to mention that two of Alderson’s PECOTAs are Matt Cain and Zack F*n Greinke. That seem to be a lot of upside. Big risk, with maybe a potential big reward.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
noticed this in both trades today
first on the mariners’ SB nation site, then on the Giants- both have people wondering how they got ripped off by the "Pirates? :-o Aren’t they supposed to be bad at trading?
by BurgherKing on Jul 29, 2009 7:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oooh. I'm gonna go see.
Sounds awesome.
by IAPiratesFan on Jul 29, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just had a thought…maybe Brian Sabean decided to give us such a great trade to try and make up for trading us Matt Morris a few years ago
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 7:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Strikeout numbers aren’t everything. The walk % is better than the vast majority of what we have at any level, which indicates top-notch control.
He is also young for AA, as well.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 7:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Alright fellas...
Who’s next to go? Or who else do you think is on the move?
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the only guys who i think might be going are grabow and capps, and perhaps doumit as well.
slim chance of us trading duke and maholm too.
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet..
Capps, Grabow go, but I don’t expect much for them.
I am starting to wonder if they are seeing what they can get for Duke, Malholm, and Doumit.
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, we didn’t expect much for Jack and Ian, and we surely didn’t expect one of the Giants’ best prospects for Sanchez. You never know. We just have to find a team that is desperate for some relief pitching. Maybe Grabow’s performance helped him today.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can say that again
i m almost starting to expect a bumgarner and buchholz if they trade any of maholm, duke or doumit now!
by BurgherKing on Jul 29, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duke..
Be tough to deal him, but if Doc is off the market, a team may overpay for him, you could get a Buckholtz and Andersen/Westmoreland type return.
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buchholz and Westmoreland
that would get Halladay (plus couple other lower prospects) and the Sox are balking at that…no way that gets offered for Duke, might not even get one of them offered
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think people underrate Duke.. This year he is a monster, if he was on a team that gave him support, he could be a 13 game winner right now.
I think at the deadline a team could give you a crazy deal for him.
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
even if they under rate him
He’s not Roy freaking Halladay. halladay can’t even get the guys you mentioned
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First I didn’t say they would get Buckholtz and Westmoreland for Duke, I said that type of return. If a team like Seattle overpaid for Bedard at the deadline someone will do for Duke who ie better then Bedard was.
As for the return, everything I have read leads me to believe the Sox would move those guys for Holliday, but the Jays are the ones who can’t decide if they want to trade Doc.
Duk will def give you a nice return and possibly a few great pospects. The guy can flat out pitch, a few mangers like Manual and Macha both asked their teams to look at him.
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I'm saying
even a Bucholz/Westmoreland type deal would be insanity. And Bedard is better than Duke plus everything I’ve read is that Westmoreland is off limits and that only Bucholz would be moved out of the two
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would much rather have Duke then Beard.. Seattle still gets ripped for what they gave up for Bedard.
Like I said, a package like that isn’t out of the question for Duke. Teams overpay. Wjo would have thought Alderson for Sanchez or what we got for Wilson.
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really
wish you were a GM on an opposing team
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I bit my tongue as long as I could.
It’s B-U-C-H-H-O-L-Z. Buchholz!
Now go forth and prosper.
by Vlad on Jul 29, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe so,
but remember – it’s McClouth, McCutcheon, LaRouche and Nyger.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've always
switched between two H’s and one H. i don’t really follow the AL minor league systems too much or the Red Sox
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah cause Bedard is better then Duke, no team will oferr a good package..
:(
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say that
I said that he isn’t worth Buchholz and Westmoreland or something like that as you said
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said a package like that, I didn’t say those guys…
Its proven teams overpay, look at Bedard, your BF, Seattle overpaid for him big time.
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you an idiot
or do you only play one on the blogs? Teams don’t overpay that drastically anymore. When Roy Halladay can’t get the type of deal you are stating then Duke certainly can’t get one.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bedard
Seattle overpaying for him is part of the reason teams don’t overpay anymore… they saw how badly Seattle got destroyed in the trade.
And isn’t a “package like Buccholz/Westmoreland” implying guys of similar skill/potential? (Just curious.)
True Blue Jazz
Thoughts From The Couch
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RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 29, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I recall
The Bedard trade is the last straw that got Bill Bavasi canned, kinda like the Moskos/Wieters fiasco got DL fired.
by maguro on Jul 29, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't you mean Morris?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention that Buchholz
isn’t that much worse than Duke right now. So someone like him would have to be close to Buchholz which means that the unknown player has higher upside than Duke while being major league ready now.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you want another player
that has high upside in the deal too
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buchholz is better than Duke today.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
eh
I’d give Duke the slight edge based simply in experience but I agree that you could consider him better than Duke which would make a trade of that type even more ridiculous
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could be.
Freddy’s 1 for his last 34 and “day to day” bum knee apparently didn’t hurt him.
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Capps won't go
Huntington has shown — fairly consistently, before Snell — that he will sell when players are at high value. Capps’ perceived value has taken a decent hit this year, so I wouldn’t expect him to be traded unless Huntington thought he was getting a return commensurate with Capps’ peak value.
by Alleghenys on Jul 29, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. That’s why I don’t think Doumit will be traded this year, either. He has to show that he can stay healthy before teams start showing serious interest in him.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Grabow is likely the only guy that goes. I’d like to see us put Grabow with whetever else it would take to get Eric Young Jr. from Colorado. Lots of teams are chasing George Sherrill and I think you will see some of the ones that don’t think they can get Sherrill turn their attention to Grabow the closer we get to the deadline..
We would be selling low on Capps. NH, Frank and Co. have made it clear that is not what they do.
I also would be very shocked if Doumit goes. Clements is not going to catch and Ryan suddenly becomes the veteran leader of this team.
Duke could be traded, but only is someone really overpays for him. I doubt NH is calling other teams shopping Zack.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 29, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. Like NH said earlier, it’s going to take a ridiculous package of prospects for the Buccos to trade Duke. I like that talk from Neal.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not ridiculous
It would have to be a gaggle, much better word. Maybe even a ridiculous gaggle?
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only time we've sold low
was in special circumstances (Snell, Salomon), so yeah, Doumit and Capps likely to stay. Duke could go in the offseason for a MI.?
by Mr. E on Jul 29, 2009 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The longer you wait to trade Duke...
…the longer you need to keep the Max Protect defense on the field to maintain his trade value, or else that ERA will start creeping back up toward 4.
by Vlad on Jul 29, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1 strikeout
against the giants, that will work…sometimes.
by SamTheButcher on Jul 29, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bautista, Paulino?
Not that Diaz and JJ were bad returns, but they surely weren’t sell-high situations.
by JRoth95 on Jul 29, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing that worries me..
Yeah, I liked all the trades this year, the only trade I have hated was Bay.
But all these good young prospects they are getting will have to have their contract re done in a few years. If guys like Alvarez, Alderson, Cutch, Tabata, Miledge, Clement tear it up in a few years like many think they will, will this FO pay them or let them walk?
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 7:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
pay some
trade others, which is what small market teams have to do and have been doing for years
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
6 years.
they have 6 years of control over all these guys (except milledge, who has played some, and cutch will have played about a year and a half, before more start coming up) As Green_Wave says, if we are making a legit post season run, some might get traded for established players.
Some will get signed slightly longer term before their time is up.
by BurgherKing on Jul 29, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it depends on how successful this “rebuilding” process is. If we are competitve in 2-3 years, I think we’ll pay them. If we aren’t (Lord, help us if we aren’t a competitive team by then), we’ll probably see the same thing we’re seeing now, although another wholesale cleaning probably wouldn’t come for another 5 years or so.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The plan will be to have a winner by then (playoffs….World Series) and have guys stocked in the system to fill in for those we deem to expensive and trade those guys for more prospects to restock the organization.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 29, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Congrats ...
You raped us on that trade.
LinceCain and pray for rain .... or for someone to take Zito off our hands.
by Lincecain on Jul 29, 2009 7:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Karma's a bitch
Thanks Matt Morris.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 29, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
‘Preciate it. It sucks, doesn’t it? Littlefield did it to us for years and years. But the good news is that ya’ll are actually a contending team and ya’ll do have LOADS of good pitching (I mean, ya’ll still have Bumgardner for cryin’ out loud). Not only were we a terrible team under Littlefield, but he would constantly make moves that just gave away our best players (see Aramis Ramirez). Yeah, Alderson is a great prospect and great pick-up for us, but ya’ll still didn’t lose a whole lot considering ya’ll’s pitching depth throughout the organization. Oh, and ya’ll are a good team right now.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, let’s not frame Alderson’s HOF bust yet. On the surface this looks like a great (not good) trade, but you just never know with pitchers. Especially Pirate pitchers
by TravisDW on Jul 29, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alderson is in the 25-50 range of Baseball America’s midseason review, the same area as Pedro Alvarez. He is now definitely one of our top two prospects, probably 2nd.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 7:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lincoln-Tabata-Alderson
Alderson’s got to improve that K rate
by BadAndy on Jul 29, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s no way Lincoln is a better prospect. About 3.5 years older and not lighting up AAA? Not a chance.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I would say Lincoln is better simply because he is so close to being in the big leagues. He’s done fine at Triple-A. No, it’s not the domination that he had at Double-A, but that’s to be expected because he facing a more advanced level of hitters. He’s still doing fine at Triple-A.
by mspirate on Jul 29, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heck, Diaz from the Adam LaRoche deal is closer to to the majors than Alvarez. That doesn’t mean anything. It’s mostly on upside.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad Charlie is out there
keeping us from hoisting the 2012 pennant already.
His comments on Alderson are well taken. These Mark Fydrich kind of guys have a low success rate overall. God knows if Dave Kerwin will be able to leave Alderson’s wacky delivery alone, like SF has.
But even over just two years there’s just no comparison between stats put up by Alderson and say Moskos, who was drafted 17 picks ahead of him. He’s been successful in some real hitters leagues, and guys like KLaw and BP are solidly behind him. Even the article Charlie links to says Alderson is a possible 2010 major leaguer.
Alderson is young and successful. Nothing wrong with that.
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 8:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
alderson
“There’s still a strong possibility that he’ll have some catastrophic arm injury or lose velocity or struggle with his mechanics or any number of the other weird things that happen to young pitchers.”
So we should have kept Freddy?
I’m also less enthusiastic than most about Alderson, but it’s still a great return for a 30+ 2nd baseman in a slump, with a bad knee and a hefty contract. It’s great to have hard-throwing pitchers with control problems who might become studs, but it’s also good to have some control guys. Variety is a wonderful thing. Let’s just keeping adding depth and see what happens.
by bolton on Jul 29, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One measure of the success of this trade (for the Pirates)
is the degree of angst and anguish at McCovey Chronicles. You’d think that they hired Dave Littlefield to run their organization.
by Trogluddite on Jul 29, 2009 8:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what’s more was that the fans on there were cracking jokes about the Pirates before, when they were just speculating about the trade, calling us a AAA team and such. Then suddenly it’s a boatload of swear words and NOOOOOOOOOOO’s when they found out it was Alderson!
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Surprisingly there are a lot of positive comments over at the PBC blog!!!
by biglar33 on Jul 29, 2009 8:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If you ignore
that daquido guy who thinks the Pirates FO are out to get him and all of Pittsburgh
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That IS shocking.
Damn! I was hoping to read some posts that would give me solid laughter.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 29, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
trend Freddy Sanchez on Twitter
and you’ll a LOT of clueless casual Pirates fan
They should not be welcomed back when the Pirates start bein a winner again
by BadAndy on Jul 29, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave O'Brien and Rick Sutcliffe
are dripping with pathos on Wednesday Night Baseball as they lament the sad state of the Pittsburgh Pirates and all of the “great” players they have traded away in the last year. O’Brien reals off the names as if the Bucs had dumped Stargell, Parker, Zisk, Cash, Stennett, and Candelaria for a bunch of average minor leaguers. I’m going to be sick.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
by SubLime on Jul 29, 2009 8:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’ve given up on trying to convince people who don’t believe in this rebuilding plan that it’s actually a good thing, and the right thing for the franchise. I’ll content myself with laughing in their faces in 2 or 3 years when we’re in contention again.
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
those same people will likely end up buying all the tickets for the games
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I’m still not too happy with that Willie Randolph deal.
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The great Doc Medich?
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
by SubLime on Jul 29, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My brain is getting old,
and this one strained it!
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
by SubLime on Jul 29, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sutcliffe
I would say the worst announcer, but then I’m reminded Rob Dibble has a job in broadcasting.
by Matt Buggenhagen on Jul 29, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Buck, John madden
just to name a couple
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Sutcliffe is awful…I’d rather listen to Joe Morgan.
by maguro on Jul 29, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hawk Harrelson.
“As irritating as a Tabasco sauce enema,” was the first description of his work that I ever heard, and it’s 100% true.
John Sterling’s pretty bad, too.
by Vlad on Jul 29, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nearly as bad
is Ed Farmer on the White Sox radio broadcasts. Augh.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dibble
Agreed — Dibble is by far the worst baseball personality on the air today. I can’t change the channel fast enough when I hear his voice on XM Home Plate.
by Alleghenys on Jul 29, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Headline at yahoo sports: “Pirates dump Sanchez, Wilson and Snell”
Looks like Yahoo thinks we’re a terrible franchise too…
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 8:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i can’t understand why all the major sports new stations, as well as their analysts seem to hate the pirates, even though they’re supposed to be the best in the business at evaluating trades and moves.
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they'll be slobbin
when we have the best record in MLB within 5 yrs
by BadAndy on Jul 29, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that happens, the talking heads will be like “Of course we saw it coming!”
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where was the headline . . .
“Giants dump Matt Morris”??
I’m calling Shenanigans.
by WstCstBucco on Jul 29, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol, good point. I feel like someone should go through all the posts here and identify the people that aren’t supporting this management. Then in 2 years if we’re contending again, those people should be banned from the site for not believing.
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're not experts,
they only “play” experts on TV. This is the first time in years that I can clearly identify a method in the front office.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
by SubLime on Jul 29, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rebuild
If your going to build the farm system for future starters let’s hope we hit a home run with today’s trades and trades done earlier this year.I’m only 44 i still have a chance of a winning season………
by bucowaiting on Jul 29, 2009 8:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Roster spot
I wonder if Milledge will get called up to take Freddy’s roster spot. :(edeno is taking Jack’s spot amd Young is likely to get a lot of action at 2B. That also gives us Cruz and Vazquez as INF reserves.
It would be nice if Gorzelanny joins Lastings on that flight from Indy and VV goes back down.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 29, 2009 8:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
scouts
I hope pirates scouts shut up espn and all sports sites when the bucs look like the 79 buccos again.Hey I’ve been dreaming for 161/2 years…..
by bucowaiting on Jul 29, 2009 8:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Friday
I’d like to see the Pirates field:
Cutch CF
Milledge LF
Jones RF
Doumit C
Pearce 1B
Young 2B
Luigi 3B
:(edeno SS
If Milledge doesn’t get the call, I’d bat Young 2nd and put Moss in LF batting 6th. I also wouldn’t mind seeing us use Cruz and Vazquez some at SS and let :(edeno come in as a defensive replacement.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 29, 2009 8:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can’t imagine Milledge not getting the call. Who else do they have at AAA that’s ready?
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 29, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Define ready
they might decide they like Bixler.
(Goes away to bang head on wall)
True Blue Jazz
Thoughts From The Couch
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 29, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sad as it is, Bixler would be the only other one that might make sense. That being if they feel Milledge is not ready and want to give Moss some playing time. Then Bixler comes up and can sit the bench and fill in at SS, 2B and CF.
Let’s hope it’s Milledge!!!
by Brakeman8 on Jul 29, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really doubt they’ll call up bixler at this point. They’ve already got 3 shortstops at the major league level between cedeno, vazquez and cruz, so they really don’t need a 4th/
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah
They didn’t decide they liked Bixler when they called up Cruz instead, and they didn’t decide they liked him when they elected to play Young at 2B instead. They didn’t even call him up to be dead weight like they did Salazar (looks like he’ll be dead weight for a little longer as well.) I don’t think they’re fans.
Milledge is the only MLB ready talent they have.
I’ve heard from multiple sources now that the PIrates might start trying Andy LaRoche at second now. Maybe a platoon there with Young and have him play third when he’s not at second.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 29, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They recalled Cruz and then started using Bixler at 2B and CF to improve his value as a utility player.
I had not heard that at all about LaRoche…at least not from anyone with real insight. I’ve seen posts on the blogs by uninformed fans, but everytime it has been brought up to DK he has said the Pirates have no plans to move Andy. Who would play 3B?
by Brakeman8 on Jul 29, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cedeno?
True Blue Jazz
Thoughts From The Couch
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 29, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
eek!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 29, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We've still got 48 hours...
maybe Neil has a 2B stashed somewhere up his sleeve.
by Thunder on Jul 29, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grabow
+ 1 of Jones/Clement/Young (do we have any other DH’s?) for a 2 in the AL?
Would we able to land Sean Rodriguez/Brandon Wood?
(Yes, I’m dreaming. So what?)
True Blue Jazz
Thoughts From The Couch
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 29, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brandon Wood might be nice - and possible
You know, Grabow & Clement might be enough to get Brandon Wood – that would answer the 2nd base question, because you’d then move LaRoche to 2nd & play Wood at SS & have the hole at 3rd until Alvarez is ready.
Seems like right now the depth chart for the future has got to be something like this:
C – Doumit, Sanchez, Jaramillo, RDiaz
1B – Jones, Pearce, Clement
2B – ? (Young)
SS – ? (ADiaz, Cruz, Cedeno)
3B – Alvarez, LaRoche
OF – McCutchen, Milledge, Tabata, Hernandez, Moss
That’s too many catcher or catcher-types & not enough middle IFs – I suspect there’s a need to change some of those catchers into middle IFs
by stork24 on Jul 29, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who else do they have at AAA
Nobody, believe me. I was at the game last night
Lino Donoso
by Lino Donoso on Jul 29, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wilson and freddy
Jack and freddy will be missed but the soon to become youngest team maybe in baseball is doing the right thing.If this way of building the team doesn’t work we still have the steelers the pens and baseball might as well be a story of the past…….Can you say no baseball in pittsburgh? I can’t……
by bucowaiting on Jul 29, 2009 8:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WOW
I am stunned by this trade. I think he’s the best prospect the Pirates have gotten in any trade in the past two years. This is unbelievable. I know Pirates fans love Freddie and he’s a solid player but to get Alderson and to not have to even pay for Sanchez’s salary is crazy good for the Buccos.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jul 29, 2009 9:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Im okay with this...
I’m okay with this trade and us trading everyone we have this year. I will be upset if Doumit, Duke, Capps, or Maholm follow them anytime soon. I understand NHs idea of wanting to control the contracts of his top end players, but I believe Capps, Maholm, and Doumit are under control for the next 2 years beyond this one due to the deals they signed. I’d love to see us go out and lock up Zach for 4 years/28 mill or something along those lines. There was a justifiable reason for trading the people we did, but unloading anyone more who is under our control for a while does start to scream salary dump to me. At some point, NH has to show that he is willing to pay to keep talent. Signing Duke shows us as fans that he is willing to hang on to the right players.
by slick720 on Jul 29, 2009 9:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Okay wih this
I think Pirates fans should be ashamed of themselves for ripping Neal Huntington to the point where he had to issue a statement asking fans to hold on just a little longer.
The pirates just got three former first round picks who could all still become stars.
Milledge
a few hours ago Clement
now Tim Alderson
Go over to Mcovey’s cove to see how pissed Giants fans
To be honest I come here once in awhile because it woudl be cool to see the Pirates do well and I want to root for them..
Jesus….Alderson is like your best prospect now. You basically just traded for a Rick Porcello clone
by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 29, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In total fairness
17 years of losing will cause people to have a bit of a “wait and see” approach
by TravisDW on Jul 29, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And be clear
Next year will be 18. It would take a miracle for this team, plus whoever comes up in 2010, to see .500 next year. Even 2011 will take a majority of the players meeting expectations – no steps backwards.
by JRoth95 on Jul 29, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know about Duke, but if we could sign McCutchen super-long term like with Longoria last year (I think he got 8 or 9 year deal), that would be an even better use of resources for the team. Cutch isn’t quite at Longoria’s level, but he should still figure to be the cornerstone of the next generation Bucs.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 29, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would gladly pack Grabow’s or Capps’ bags if Mr. Huntington could somehow get us Eric Young Jr. in exchange for one, or both, of those players. C’mon man! You’ve got ONE MORE in you!!!
by Coach Clemente on Jul 30, 2009 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this is more on the Rockies
they don’t seem interested in trading EYJ.
That’s why they’ve “lowered their sights” from Grabow to Mark Hendrickson
True Blue Jazz
Thoughts From The Couch
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check out the horrible fan comments on ESPN
http://myespn.go.com/s/conversations/show/story/4364832
I mean, wow. These people are absolutely bashing us for trading an oft-injured, 31 year old second baseman for the 26th-best prospect in all of major league baseball.
I really wish some people would understand, but I’ve given up on trying to convince non-believers.
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 9:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ESPN is just stupid
I mean, they employ Buster Olney, Steve Phillips, Joe Morgan, and the rest of the BBTN “analysts”
No wonder stupid people gravitate to their boards.
><
by Blicks on Jul 29, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get the feeling that we could trade for Albert Pujols and people would still find a way to bash us.
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goodbye, Timmy, we hardly knew ye...
I’m very, very sorry to see Timmy go. Maybe there’s a clause somewhere in the bowels of the ML offices that says an organization can’t have two awesome pitchers named Timmy. That must be the reason. Oh, and Karma. That’s a bitch too.
Alderson has been sitting around 88-90 with his FB this year. I think he has potential to add some velocity. His curve is already a plus pitch. His changeup is developing, but probably slightly below average right now. I think there’s a very good chance that he’ll put up 1.5 to 2.5 WAR seasons throughout the first six years of his career.
I have some friends who are fans of the Buck-Os, so I’ve grown to like them as well. I hope Sanchez can help us take the wildcard. What can we expect from him?
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Jul 29, 2009 9:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He’s a solid pitcher when healthy. I mean, obviously everyone here’s happy to have gotten a top pitching prospect like Alderson for him, but in truth Sanchez is a soild bat. He’s been battling some injury issues recently, but he is a former NL batting champ, and he’s solid with the glove too. He can play multiple infield positions, although from what i’ve heard the giants’ primary need is at 2B, which is where he’s played the last couple seasons.
You’re gaining a solid bat, and he’ll definitely help you if you can pull off the playoffs, but don’t be surprised if his injury issues linger for a while.
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry, have no idea why i said a solid PITCHER. I meant that he’s a solid hitter. My bad
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN Poll Question
The question was “Could the Pirates have built a playoff team around Jason bay, Nate McLouth, Nyjer Morgan, Jack Wilson and Freddy Sanchez?”
The poll was apparently only posted on ESPN in the last half hour or so, as there’s only 436 total votes. However, 67% of the country believes that we could have built a playoff team around those 5 guys.
Apparently these people forget the fact that in return for those 5 players whom we’ve traded, we’ve gotten a grand total of 15 players, 4 of whom are already in the majors.
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 9:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Another ridiculous poll bashing the Pirates
Please Lord make the Pirates good in 2011 or 2012
by Jett on Jul 29, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh
and 2-3 of whom are scrubs.
The trades have gotten us promising returns, but let’s not get carried away. Andy has had about 6 good weeks in one full season, and Moss has played his way off a 90-loss team. Cedeno is, obviously, a stopgap – better than Bixler, but not by much.
by JRoth95 on Jul 29, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love this trade, despite Alderson's questions.
Still a win IMO.
><
by Blicks on Jul 29, 2009 9:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good article:
Man I still can’t believe the Pirates got Alderson!
Keith Law ranked him the 26th best prospect in all of baseball. I think he is the 3rd youngest pitcher in AA too (behind Bumgarner his teammate)
http://mvn.com/aroundthemajors/2009/07/brian-sabean-fleeced-in-freddy-sanchez-trade.html
by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 29, 2009 9:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
To be clear, Alderson is the first in an alphabetical listing of players just outside of Law’s top-25.
Still the loving, adoptive father of Hector Sanchez. And who doesn't love switch-hitting catchers with power and patience?
by tedfordfan on Jul 30, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's gotta count for something
right?
by JRoth95 on Jul 30, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this juncture...
can someone (WTM? Vlad?) throw out all the players we’ve gotten via trade since Huntington took over? We’ve moved Bay/Marte/Nady/McLouth/Sanchez/Wilson/Morgan/Hinske/Burnett/Phillips… is that it?
by ILLZ on Jul 29, 2009 9:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Illinois Pirate Fan just wrote a fanpost about exactly what you asked for: here’s the link
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2009/7/29/968495/you-cant-tell-the-players-without
by Akshay R on Jul 29, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Per DK
It appears likely that Milledge will be recalled for Friday’s game.
by Brakeman8 on Jul 29, 2009 9:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“Madison Bumgarner is suddenly very, very lonely.”
Hilarious
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 29, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
In the AP story, Sabean refers to Sanchez as “a kid.”
Kid you not.
by bucdaddy on Jul 29, 2009 10:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Freddy does have a youthful look about him… (until you notice his limp…)
by Coach Clemente on Jul 30, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't Worry
As a Giants fan who has seen Alderson in person, I can say that his curveball is wicked. His fastball ain’t that great but neither was Greg Maddux’s and I would say that Alderson’s control is comparable to Maddux. He doesn’t have a lot of strikeout because he doesn’t have strikeout stuff. If you look at his High-A stats where he dominated, he won practically every game without getting very many strikeouts. Plus, because he’s so young the Giants have only been pitching him around 4 or 5 innings a start, which doesn’t really allow you to have high amounts of strikeouts.
by Daniel A on Jul 29, 2009 10:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
maddux
Thanks for the Alderson info, but I do have clarify one thing. There’s a perception Maddux didn’t have a good fastball. It’s true late in his career, but he could throw hard when he first came up. I apologize for being a nitpicker.
by bolton on Jul 29, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gene Collier...
Hates the trades… all of them..
He is the nightly Sports Call.
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 10:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Considering that he barely even knows who Wilson, Snell, and Sanchez are, that’s not surprising.
by matskralc on Jul 29, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gene Collier covers baseball? News to me!
by Coach Clemente on Jul 30, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gene’s an aspiring comedian who happens to have had a sports journalism gig since Clemente was alive. Any sporting insight he may have is purely coincidental.
by TravisDW on Jul 30, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My favorite Collier moment was in Feb when he said the Pens should trade Fleury. LOL
Anyways, its funny one caller asked him if he thought Pirates would have gotten Lincecum for Sanchez.
by psunate77 on Jul 29, 2009 10:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i have been trying to figure out all these years why he is in the sports section, or has his articles published at all..
by jsn4219 on Jul 29, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just got back from dinner with some friends of mine who are “done”, since all the Pirates do is “trade away their best players every year”. Meanwhile, I’m trying not to go running through the restaurant screaming like a lunatic at the top of my lungs because I’m excited about Alderson. Needless to save, I have calmed down a little bit. But this is fantastic. I couldn’t careless what anyone from ESPN says (besides, if everything works out, I’ll have their job in 8-10 years!), because most of them are uneducated, highly biased baboons. Well, anyway, I’m excited about what NH and company are doing. I have never seen a winning season from the Pirates, and for a while I thought I never would. But I can honestly now say that I believe in what is happening in PNC Park. It may have poured in Pittsburgh today, but I definitely saw some rays of sunshine poking through the 17 years of rain
by glass0941 on Jul 29, 2009 11:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
another bucs trade bust
what huntington doesn’t realize is that he’ll be fired long before and if these prospects pan out.. and if they do pan out the next gm will trade them to…. littlefield traded jeff suppan to boston for sanchez… sanchez is good.. suppan is still good….. the pirates told us if they built pnc park they wouldn’t have to do this anymore – they trade more players now than they ever did in 3 rivers… what a joke.. i live in nc now and was a lifelong pirates fan.. when i visited pittsburgh a few weeks ago i decided not to go to a game and not give the pirates another dime to run a farm team
by formerbucsfan on Jul 29, 2009 11:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
good riddance
the Yanks, Sox, and Cubs have plenty of room for you and other clueless casual tools out there
by BadAndy on Jul 30, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
very good riddance
Easy to give an opinion, hard to have a clue.
by Jake B on Jul 30, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Urg...
You’re a Mets fan. How’s that goin for you? Spend more money than Congress does on health care and still can’t make the playoffs. Omar Minaya snapped in a press conference, and the whole circus looked more like a boxing weigh-in than a baseball press conference. Now ownership and upper levels of management are saying he is close to losing his job. But the Oliver Perez deal looks great!
by glass0941 on Jul 30, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Jul 30, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Suppan has an ERA approaching 6 this year with a WHIP of 1.70. If that;‘s good then you’re an even bigger fool
by Jett on Jul 30, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reading between the lines...
barring any more trades.
http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/pbc/archive/2009/07/29/milledge-likely-coming-friday.aspx
Lineup Friday
Cutch CF
Young 2B
Jones RF
Doumit C
Pearce 1B
LaRoche 3B
Milledge LF
Cedeno SS
Ohlie P
by Thunder on Jul 30, 2009 12:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The best day EVER (since the curse of Barry Bonds...)
I have not been this excited about the future of the Pittsburgh Pirates since the first day that Barry Bonds refused to speak to the media and got chewed out by Jim Leyland. Congratulations to the Pirates and Mr. Huntington for making the best of the situation and launching a promising new future for the team. I look forward to the coming years with great enthusiasm!
by Coach Clemente on Jul 30, 2009 12:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
TIM Alderson
Tim Alderson is just 20 year old and holding his own double-A, and his integration capability is uncommon at this age. Apparently his 6′6′ right-hander has above-average command and control for his age. Also he can throw in the low-90s and has a plus curveball and a developing changeup, and some other data shows that he’s 20 years old and pitching in double-A with exceptional command and control for his age.
source:http://jewelry8.blog.co.uk/
by Eronne on Jul 30, 2009 12:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Moving forward, I like Brandon Wood for one of our ML pitchers, but Eric Young isn’t nearly as good.
I’m glad now that we didn’t trade Sanchez for EY Jr.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 30, 2009 1:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Okay
Someone get to Altoona with a radar gun stat and get us a reading on Alderson’s fastball. I’ve read he can hit 94 and I’ve read he can’t throw it harder than 88 now. One is great, one is terrible, and we need answers.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 30, 2009 2:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel like 94 is the reading most optimistic Bucs fans use, while 88 is the Giants fans trying to cope with the loss. I’m sure he sits somewhere in the middle—90-92, with good control. If he can locate that thing down in the zone, he’ll be fine, IMO.
by Yotum on Jul 30, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it will be odd in a couple years
to be a bucco fan with legitimate expectations.
i’d forgotten what it was like to be really excited by the teams’ future until this season
by vherub on Jul 30, 2009 10:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My only wish
is that “fans” would learn a bit about Alderson before declaring that we dumped Freddy for next to nothing.
Sure, he might not be the next Roy Halladay or whatever, but it doesn’t make him bad. The Giants have shown the ability to find some great pitchers as of late (Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, Sanchez?, etc.) and there isn’t any reason right now to think that Alderson can’t continue that trend.
True Blue Jazz
Thoughts From The Couch
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Jul 30, 2009 12:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jon Heyman (Fresh News 2:27 PM 7/30)
1:27pm: SI’s Jon Heyman says the Cubs and Pirates are in “serious discussions” about Grabow
by God Loves on Jul 30, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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