Pirates trade analysis
by Akshay R on Jul 31, 2009 3:00 PM EDT
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PrintI've read plenty of comments from trollers over the last few days about how all of the Pirates' moves are salary dumps, and will kill the team, so I just wanted to do an analysis of all the major trades that Neal Huntington's made in his tenure as GM, to see how they've all actually worked out.
1. July 26th, 2008: Pirates trade Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte to the New York Yankees for Ross Ohlendorf, Jeff Karstens, Dan McCutchen, and Jose Tabata.
How it's worked out for the Yankees: Nady's played a grand total of 66 games for the Yankees, batting about .270, 60 points lower than he was hitting with the Pirates last season before he was traded, and has been on the DL since mid-April needing Tommy John surgery. Marte has pitched a grand total of 32 games for the Yankees, with an ERA of 7.60, 4.1 higher than he had with the Pirates last season before he was traded, and has been on the DL since late April with left shoulder tendinitis.
How it's worked out for us: Ohlendorf has started 25 games for us, with an ERA of 4.81, 1.7 lower than he had with the Yankees last year before the trade. Karstens has started 19 games for us, and pitched an additional 16 games in relief, with an ERA of 4.26, as well as a near-perfect game last August against the Diamondbacks. McCutchen has had a solid year this year at Indy, going 10-6 with an ERA of 3.78. Tabata was promoted just yesterday to Indy after a solid stint at Altoona batting .303, and is one of the top 75 prospects in baseball.
Result: Huge win for the Pirates
2. July 31st, 2008: Pirates trade Jason Bay to the Boston Red Sox for Brandon Moss and Craig Hansen from the Red Sox, and Andly LaRoche and Bryan Morris from the LA Dodgers.
How it's worked out for the Red Sox: Bay's played 99 games for the Red Sox so far this season, just 7 fewer than he had with the Pirates last year before the trade. In these relatively same amounts of games, Bay has 10 more RBI's and 2 fewer homers batting in a much more potent lineup (although he could easily hit those 2 homers in the next 7 games to equal last year with us), and has 23 fewer hits, and a batting average that is 32 points lower.
How it's worked out for us: LaRoche has played 97 games for the Pirates this year, batting .256 with 37 RBIs. Moss has played 83 games for us this year, batting .250 with 27 RBI's. Hansen has been on the 60-day DL since April with nech spasms, and pitched poorly in 5 appearances for the Pirates with a 5.68 ERA. Morris has pitched poorly at Class-A Lynchburg this year, with a 5.70 ERA in 9 starts.
Result: Overall loss for the Pirates
3. April 15th, 2009: Pirates trade 2 players to be named later/cash considerations to the LA Dodgers for Delwyn Young
How it's worked out for the Dodgers: I could only find out one of the 2 PTBNL's online, and that was Eric Krebs, who has a 3.14 ERA this year at the Dodgers' class A+ affiliate. No idea who the other PTBNL was.
How it's worked out for us: In 71 games for the Pirates this year, Young's done a great job in somewhat limited time, batting .316 with 24 RBI's.
Result: A seemingly insignificant acquisition at the time it was made, but it's paid fairly big dividends for the Pirates.
4. June 3rd, 2009: Pirates trade Nate McLouth to the Atlanta Braves for Jeff Locke, Charlie Morton and Gorkys Hernandez
How it's worked out for the Braves: In an exactly equal number of games as he played here this season, McLouth has done a fair job for the Braves, batting .265 (9 points higher than he had here this season), with 6 homers (3 fewer than he had here), and 19 RBI's (15 fewer than he had here). Batting leadoff in Atlanta as opposed to 3rd here is the main reason for the dramatic reduction in RBI's.
How it's worked out for us: Morton's been solid for the Pirates overall, going 2-3, but with a 3.72 ERA in 8 starts. Hernandez has done a fair job this year for us at AA Altoona, batting .249, but is the 62nd-ranked prospect in baseball. Locke has struggled at Lynchburg, going 1-4 so far with a 5.31 ERA. The trade also enabled us to promote Andrew McCutchen from Indy, who's been solid with the Pirates so far.
Result: Right now about even, although that could change depending on the development of Hernandez and Locke.
The remainder of the trades occurred within the last month or so, so it's really to soon to tell how they will work out.
5. June 30th, 2009: Pirates trade Nyjer Morgan and Sean Burnett to the Washington Nationals for Joel Hanrahan and Lastings Milledge
How it's worked out for the Nationals: Morgan has been excellent for Washington, batting over .400 with a 77.78% stealing percentage. Burnett has a 0.75 ERA with the Nationals, and has 1 Hold and 1 Blown Save.
How it's worked out for us: Hanrahan has a 3.00 ERA with the Pirates, and 1 Hold. Milledge was rehabbing a hand injury, but was excellent at Indy, with a .333 batting average in 17 games, and was recalled to the Pirates on Wednesday,
Result: As Milledge hasn't played for the Pirates yet, it's too soon to tell the impact of this trade.
6. July 22nd, 2009: Pirates trade Adam LaRoche to the Boston Red Sox for Argenis Diaz and Hunter Strickland.
How it's worked out for the Red Sox: LaRoche has batted .263 with 1 homer and 3 RBI's in 6 games.
How it's worked out for us: Diaz is batting .286 in 6 games at Indy. Strickland is 1-0 at West Virginia with 6 shutout innings.
Result: Happened just last week. WAY too soon to tell.
7. July 29th, 2009: Pirates trade Jack Wilson and Ian Snell to the Seattle Mariners for Jeff Clement, Ronny Cedeno, Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin and Nathan Adcock.
What the Mariners are getting: Wilson's an average hitter who's a spectacular defensive shortstop and makes plays time and again. Snell has talent, but just lost it this year, even admitting he contemplated suicide and was demoted to AAA. He dominated AAA hitting before the trade.
What we're getting: Cedeno's a defensive specialist who can play multiple positions. Clement was the 3rd overall draft pick in 2005, hit .237 in 75 games with Seattle the last 2 seasons, but was hitting .288 this year at their AAA affiliate. Pribanic was 7-6 with a 3.21 ERA at Seatte's Single-A affiliate. Adcock was 5-7 with a 5.29 ERA at Seattles A+ affiliate. Lorin was 5-4 with a 2.44 ERA at Seattle's Single-A affiliate.
8. July 29th, 2009: Pirates trade Freddy Sanchez to the San Francisco Giants for Tim Alderson.
What the Giants are getting: Freddy's a former batting champ and a solid defender, but has had naggin injury issues the last few years, and will be a free agent this offseason unless his 600-AB option vests.
What the Pirates are getting: Alderson was ranked the 4th best prospect in the Giants' system, the 9th best RH pitching prospect in the country, and the 45th overall prospect in the league.
9. July 30th, 2009: Pirates trade John Grabow and Tom Gorzelanny to the Chicago Cubs for Kevin Hart, Jose Ascanio and Josh Harrison.
What the Cubs are getting: Grabow's a solid lefty reliever who has a knack for preventing inherited runners from scoring. Gorzelanny won 14 games in 2007, but was apparently overworked and hasn't been the same since, although he had shown signs of progress this year at Indy.
What the Pirates are getting: Hart pitched just yesterday for the Cubs against Houston, throwing a quality start (albeit barely), and getting the win. Ascanio was 2-4 with a 3.16 ERA at the Cubs' AAA affiliate, but has struggled somewhat at the major league level so far. Harrison is a speedy middle infielder who's batting .286 at the Cubs A+ affiliate this year, with 10 steals and only 1 caught stealing.
Although we can't judge the final 5 trades on this list as it's too soon to be able to judge their impact, 2, possibly 3 of the first 4 trades have turned out better for the Pirates than the team they traded with. That's a 66 or 75% success rate, something I'll gladly take compared to Dave Littlefield's success rate when it came to trades and Free Agent signings. Yes, all of these trades have saved us a lot of money, but they're not straight-up salary dumps, as some people are inclined to say.
Sorry for making this so long, I just had a fair bit of time on my hands, and wanted to put some actual statistics together to try and scare away the trolls who've been coming here so often the last few days.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Yep, nice recap.
Maybe Harold Reynolds and a bunch of the other jacka**es on MLB and ESPN will take a minute to read and try to understand it before slandering current Bucs management. Today Reynolds cited the Ramirez trade as proof the Pirates give players away. Nice.
i’m gettin really tired of reynolds side comments on the Pirates.
by BuccoBrigade on Jul 31, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
When it put it all on paper, our Bucco’s really have done a solid job of trading away non-core players for solid hauls. Farm system looks healthy.
The Yankess trade was a massive coup. Tabata will be in the bigs before too long, McCutchen isn’t too far away and Ohlendorf is a solid middle starter but I think I like the McClouth trade best. Locke’s been solid as of late, Morton’s got solid stuff and the trade has given us the new face of our franchise, Andrew McCutchen, all for a guy who I was never truly impressed with.
Red Sox trade was a massive loss. Hansen was awful when he was with the club and I couldn’t be more down on Brandon Moss. LaRoche is just eh and he might not be around too long anyway seeing Alvarez’s quick progression. Nevermind the fact that Bay’s a star and that I loved the guy, the return we got was pretty sad.
Still got question marks, both now and down the road, but Rome wasn’t built in a day. NH is on his way.
Well on Bay....
As WTM pointed out on another post, Bay’s OPS has taken a massive drop since the first two months of the season and his WAR (wins above replacement) according to FanGraphs is 1.7 games. Andy LaRoche’s is 1.4. Everyone remembers the first two months and assumes it continues that way. It hasn’t. And, just for the record MVP’s (aka Garrett Jones) is 1.3 and he’s getting $450K.
Bay is a horrible defenders
David Dejesus and Bay have the same WAR according to fangraphs because Dejesus is the games best defensive LF
by GobbleforCyoung on Aug 1, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Another thing to add
We always point to the fact that pitchers will catch up to Garrett Jones once there’s a book on him but its worth noting that Bay’s OPS by month this season has gone from 1.123 to .978 to .701 to .689 with steadily increasing strikeouts.
A lot of this can be chalked up to slumping but certainly some can be attributed to going around the league again.
by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Aug 3, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
to the Braves
Anyone else scratch their head upon seeing this?
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Kinda Funny
In addition to the Red Sox trading La Roche, if you check out the sox blog, Bay is beginning to take some heat. It’s no wonder why. You’d think with the Green Monster, and some pretty fearsome hitters around him in the batting order, that Bay would be tearing it up.
Almost makes me discount the notion of “protection” in the batting order. News flash, I guesss the guys we traded were not so much better than average.
No surprise
to me. I think even Boston fans will admit they didn’t expect Bay to replace Manny. But now that he’s in the middle of a two-month slide, his honeymoon is ending. Boston is one of the toughest places to play, and the longer he doesn’t produce, the more the fans will turn against him.
And not to be a jerk, but I can’t say I’ll be too upset about it.
"Straight ball I hit very much, but curveball, bats are afraid." - Pedro Cerrano
Agree
It will be even funnier if he leaves in the post season. Whoever resigns him will soon have quite an albatross on their necks. Ever so clearly, the actual value of the old “core” comes to light.
It is starting to look like Bay made a big mistake
by not accepting Boston’s earlier offer. Another two months like the last two and he may not get half of what he could have had from them.
by WestCoastBuc on Aug 1, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Check out the cartoon on page 2 of ESPN. I have to say, it made me chuckle a little bit…but only a little.
Link
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Akshay
Exellent post….well thoughtout
I don’t trolls like WVPF and formerpiratefan invading this post so you accomplish a lot there.
by BadAndy on Jul 31, 2009 5:34 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Nice summary....
I disagree with the analysis of the Bay/Nady/Marte trades if only because the misfortune that fell on the Yanks (both Nady and Marte getting hurt) is an unusual circumstance that should not weigh in the evaluation. If they were playing regularly and throwing up career average numbers, I would still like this trade because of Ohlendorf and Karsten’s contributions (w/McCutcheon and Tabata expected to contribute).
I think you undervalue the Bay return. I don’t think we had a legitimate 3rd baseman in our system (unless we were planning on signing Joe Randa again). I was at Cape Cod at the time of the trade and Boston fans considered Brandon Moss a legitimate replacement for Manny – I’m not a hitting coach, so I don’t know if he has any upside, but even if he remains as a fourth outfielder, our team is better. Finally, let’s give the other two pitchers a little more time before we throw them under the bus.
Interesting
There was one critic of that trade who indicated that he lived in the Boston area and that no Boston fans or area-talk-radio hosts would miss Moss at all.
I agree with the gist of your post with regard to the Bay trade. We could still get a lof value from the players we acquired in that trade.
by WestCoastBuc on Aug 1, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
not to mention ....
Paulino for Jaramillo and Bautista for Robinzon Diaz. Let’s forget the Solomon Torres
trade and the Luis Rivas signing.
by Pirate in Ole VA on Jul 31, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Pirates
Now have two top 50 prospects according to Mayo. Alvarez at 28 and Alderson at 33
Link
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
What would be cool
is to see how the Bucs prospects now rank in the top 100 or 200. Let’s see, divided by 30, i’m guessing we might be in the top 10%.
Hey Wave, can you easily look that up? By the way, is there a ranking for the top 30 times 25 best major leagures? If so, how are we looking post trades vs. pre trades crunching all of these numbers. By the way, please leave Gorzo out of the computations.
I don't think
there is an updates list of the top 100 or 200. And I don’t have any memberships to sites that have that kind of stuff. Sorry, I can’t help you out there, but someone else might be able to.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Superb Analysis
Carefully researched and well written. But I just think we might be a tad bit premature in drawing conclusions on the Bay trade. He’s come back down to earth in a formidable lineup and if his descent continues he may be offered less in free agency than he might have made with the Pirates. Plus, I still hold out a sliver of hope for Andy, Moss, and Morris. That analysis could be flipped in a year. Who knows?
Exactly
I do believe that Bay will be a poster child for the cries of “collusion” this off season. Best guess, he is out of the Majors in 2012. Also followed by Nady…And Snell too!
i m with you only on Nady, as that possibly happening…
if Bay keeps in his current funk, he will still be signed on next year, perhaps for a year or 2 only. I think he is too good a hitter to be as bad as he is now, and will probably be about league average for the next 3-4 years- esp in the AL where teams might look at him to DH, and wont have trouble finding a job. Injuries might change this, though
Snell has a shot with the Mariners. I have a feeling he’ll hang around for a while without really becoming a fixture in the rotation.
by BurgherKing on Jul 31, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
No argument about that from me. I’m hoping beyond hope that Bay cools off a ton and doesn’t get a good contract, and that Andy, Moss and Morris start living up to their potential. However, the analysis I did was based only on how the trade looks right now, not how it could end up. Yes, what you just described is a definite possibility, but as of right now, the Bay trade isn’t looking like the smartest move by us.
The casual fan...
I can understand where the casual fan my not like these deals and where the casual fan who thinks they know more then they actually do would call all the trades over the last month a salary dump.
But intelligent fans know otherwise. They realize this is precisely what needed to be done. So much so, that had any GM done this at any point between 1992 and 2007, the Pirates wouldn’t be looking at 17 consecutive losing seasons.
So where I think there can be some interesting debate and discussion about the quality of players received, the philosophy is right on target. I applaud Neal Huntignton for finally doing what Dave Littlefield was, for whatever reason, unable to do.
Bay trade = overall loss for the Pirates? Have you even seen Bay’s last 2 months?
I’d say the McLouth one was even if it was Nate for Morton straight-up, but the other players make that one a clear winner for Pit as well.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 31, 2009 8:31 PM EDT reply actions
plus team control
It’s unfair to compare Luigi and Bay straight up anyways. Bay is soon to be a free agent while Luigi is under team control for a number of more years. Also, it’s a lot more difficult finding a thirdbaseman than it is finding an outfielder. I think the deal made sense at the time and that their is still a lot of time left for the deal to turn out to be a huge Buc’s win.
Bay’s got more home runs and RBI’s than Andy LaRoche and Brandon Moss combined, with 200 less at bats. Ya, that trade was an overall loss. A massive loss IMO.
Very convenient for you to not mention defense at all. Very convenient indeed.
It’s hilarious that we once talked about how Bay would get something like a 5 year/$75 million extension. That would have been a disaster, and is another good reason the Yinzers don’t run the club. Bay’s agent will be asking for 2/$20 mil this winter if he’s lucky.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 1, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Bay’s been solid in the field this season but for a club that ranks 4th last in the National League in scoring, I’d say the offense production is a much bigger issue.
Bryan Morris is also suspended indefinitely as of now. He was a key centerpiece of that trade. Makes it look even worse, if possible.
Bay has never been solid in the field, and he is best suited as a DH. Defense is every bit as important as offense; a run saved is a run earned. Bay is as valuable as David DeJesus at this point when both sides of the game are taken into account and not just the hitting.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 1, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
If that were the case, then why was a fantastic defensive team in our Pirates some 15 games below .500 before trades? Pretty simple, we can’t manufacture enough runs. As for Glass’s comment, it’s downright incorrect, The teams overall batting average sits them right in the middle of the pack of the National League and not a massive number lower than what the Red Sox sport. Our problem, IMO, is the lack of a guy who can bring those runs in. A big bat. Bay was a big bat. Brandon Moss doesn’t do it for me, LaRoche is so-so but he won’t stick at 3rd(Or with the team at all possibly) much longer seeing Alvarez’s torrid pace and Hansen was just downright awful. Whether or not he can even pitch this season is unknown, at least to me. Bryan Morris is on indefinite suspension!! I hope this trade will look good for us a few years down the road but right now, it looks as though we got taken to the woodshed.
Bay probably needed to be traded….I just don’t like what we got in return.
It's always easy to flashback and not like what was gotten in return.
At the time I remember analysts, even on ESPN, saying how well the Bucs did in the trade. Looking back was it a good trade, maybe. Was it a bad trade, maybe. Only more time will tell. One stat that is interesting though is that Bay has a WAR (wins above replacement) of 1.7 and Andy LaRoche has a WAR of 1.3.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Bay is worth 3/10 of a win more than Andy LaRoche (1.7 vs. 1.4).
Essentially, this means that if we had kept Bay, the Bucs would most likely have the same record or very close to it.
I hate yinzers that think if we had just kept Bay this year, we would be in the playoffs.
The Bay trade wasn’t bad, even judging by 2009 performance alone. And this year doesn’t tell the whole story. Granted, it hasn’t been a clear win for us like the Nady deal. But it was hardly a huge loss fr the Bucs,
by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 2, 2009 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, Andy is up to 1.5. It would be interesting if he closed the gap altogether in the next 2 months.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 2, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Pittsburgh’s batting average maybe comparable to Boston’s, but team OBP isn’t even close. Boston ranks 4th in the majors with a .351 OBP, but Pittsburgh ranks a mere 23rd with a .323 OBP. You are looking at statistics that limit your insight into the efficiency of the offense. Call me a moneyballer, but IMO, batting average is an outdated metric that can’t be used to measure the offense’s ability to create base runners. There are other ways to get men on base other than with a hit. The 28 point difference means that Boston, having 4072 PAs this year, has had about 1430 base runners this year, while Pittsburgh has had 1278 baserunners. The shocking part of these numbers: Boston has played one less game than Pittsburgh this year. Baserunners create runs champ, not just a high batting avg.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
You're a Moneyballer.
…
well, you said to…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 4, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
We put 9 base runners on last night. Anyone care to venture a guess as to how many runs we scored?
We’ve got no one to drive in runs. It’s a serious problem.
So even if Bay could drive in those runs
we win a couple more games…YAY! for being only 20 games under
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
That was one game
over the course of a season. The Pirates have had nearly 200 less baserunners this year. He has had way more RBI opportunities in Boston. Way more.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Urg
Please tell me you did not just quote RBIs to say that he is having an excellent statistical season. He wouldn’t have half as many RBIs if he was hitting clean up in Pittsburgh because people wouldn’t be on base. RBIs are NOT a reflection of a players contribution to an offense, they are a reflection of the situation surrounding his at-bats.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Dude...Bay has worst numbers than Adam Dunn
To pay him what he wants to be paid would have been stupid (especially since he is in decline years)
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
By overall loss, I didn’t mean that it was a huge loss for us. Just that when you look at the level of play we’ve received from Moss and Andy in the majors and Morris and Hansen in the minors, compared with Bay in Boston, we ended up on the wrong side of the deal. Despite his recent extended slump and relatively low BA, he’s still 7th in the AL in RBI’s and top-20 in homers, while none of the guys we got have lived up to their projected potential.
Yes, Andy’s provided us some stability at 3rd and Moss has made some nice defensive plays and done a decent job in OF, but as of right now, this trade hasn’t worked out nearly as well for us as it has for the Red Sox, mainly because of Andy, Moss, Hansen and Morris’ general inability to live up to the hype.
You can’t gloss over defense. The difference between one of the best defenders at his position (Andy) and one of the worst at his (Bay) is enormous from a run prevention perspective. It’s why Nyjer is one of the most valuable outfielders in the league this year.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 8, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
True, true. However, in my opinion, you’re overstating how good/bad Bay’s defense is. He’s no gold glover, but I definitely wouldn’t say he’s one of the worst at his position. I’d rather have a guy like Bay who has a mediocre average and defense, but solid power numbers, than a guy like Andy who has a mediocre average and power numbers, but solid defense.
However, this is one of those trades that could easily turn around completely in no time at all. As of right now, the Pirates lost out in this trade. However, if Bay’s numbers continue to slide, and Andy, Moss, Hansen and Morris can show at least some of the potential they were supposed to have, then this trade would shift solidly in our favor.
Jason Bay
is rated as the fourth worst defender in baseball regardless of position.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Adam Dunn, Vernon Wells, Andre Ethier. Jose Guillen is also worse than Bay, even though he’s missed a lot of injury time. Guillen was the worst everyday defender in the big leagues when he was healthy.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 9, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I had no idea of this, I was basing my thought that his defense wasn’t that bad on having seen him play average defense for the Pirates for so many years. What statistic ranks him as the 4th worst defender?
UZR
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Pirates Trade Analysis
Also worth noting: According to WTM’s Pirate Profiles, not including Craig Monroe the Pirates released 7 players from their system this month. Doesn’t this reflect an overall upgrading of the system as a result not only of new prospects from the trades, but of more aggressive drafting and signing the past two years?
Lino Donoso
Re: Pirates Trade Analysis
Isn’t it normal to start releasing players this time a year as you make room for the recently drafted players? Not sure the release of 7 players means a whole lot.
Morton has been solid???
Morton is going to be really good and is already better than McClouth (even if WAR doesn’t measure pitchers/players accurately)
by GobbleforCyoung on Aug 1, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions
I do agree that Morton seems to be headed towards being a 1 or 2-man in our rotation in a few years. However, he’s had just 3 quality starts out of a total of 9 starts for us this year, and right now has an ERA over 4. He certainly hasn’t been bad, because he’s done a solid job for us, but you can’t yet say for sure that he’s definitely going to get better, although his st
Great analysis
For everyone who shits on the Pirate trades: we haven’t been good for almost 2 decades. Our team this year wasn’t good to begin with and we have NO minor league system. Eventually a complete overhaul was needed. In two years I predict these trades will be looked on differently, and for once maybe we could have a good draft.
"You wait for a strike, then you knock the shit out of it"- Stan Musial
Nice Work
Good writing and research.
The only trade that worries me is Snell. I predict Clement will get 250 AB next year at C, 1B and promptly be dealt to the AL as a full time DH while Snell wins 15 games for the M’s.
i d be surprised
if Snell was anything more than solid. I cant see him crossing 12 (and this is just safety, i cant see him getting to double figures). That said, I don’t doubt he can be a solid middle-to-back-of-the-rotation starter.
Clement, I am much less sure about. We’ll have to see how that works out. I m the most excited about the 3 pitchers in the deal, and hope Cedeno can surprise us.
Delwyn for Eric Krebs and Harvey Garcia.
I just wonder what the Dodgers were thinking there. I mean, Krebs is a 24 year old A+ pitcher. And Harvey Garcia is a 25 year old A+ pitcher. What good is that? Meanwhile Delwyn, if he learns to play 2B effectively, could be a big part of the team for several years to come and the Dodgers get two aging minor league pitchers.
Your "IF"
is one of the biggest “ifs” ever.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 4, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
its still an if
which is better than.. minor league fodder any day of the week.. and twice on thursday, three times on sunday, and five times on munderday.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 5, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
The trade is still a win since we basically traded organizational filler for a guy who’s floor is as a decent bat off the bench.
by ravidesai1984 on Aug 10, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
well...sorta
Technically, the DY trade was completed with Krebs and $1
and the Harvey Garcia trade was separate.
Not that it actually matters.
Delwyn Young Trade
Actually Young was traded for Eric Krebs and the PTBNL turned out to be one dollar. Harvey Garcia was traded seprately to LA for financial considerations to clear space in the minor league systems because of all the moves the team is making.
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