What To Do With The Pirates' Roster?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 6, 2009 5:28 PM EDT
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PrintThe Post-Gazette asks what the Pirates should do with their 25-man roster once Donnie Veal and Ryan Doumit return soon.
If I were the making the decisions, I might actually consider sending Veal back to the Cubs. Veal has shown no signs of being able to pitch effectively at the major league level any time soon. He's walked ten batters in 6.3 innings so far this year for the Pirates, and he walked twelve batters in 12.7 innings in his "rehab" stint at Indianapolis (although he did allow just four hits). He has good stuff, but he's 24, and it'll be quite a while before the Pirates can send him back to the minors to get the seasoning he obviously needs. Taking Veal in the Rule 5 was a high-risk, high-reward gamble on a pitcher with serious control problems. What possible indication has there been that the Pirates' gamble might be successful?
It's true that the Pirates shouldn't be quick to give up young talent. But Veal was a huge question mark to begin with, and he's not particularly young anymore. And this year, he's pitched less than 20 innings. If he's ever going to be a successful pitcher, what the Pirates are doing to him this year is not likely to help.
If returning Veal isn't a possibility, I'd probably demote Steven Jackson, who's been a mess of walks and runs (ten overall, including three unearned, in 16.3 innings). Matt Capps and John Grabow aren't going to the minors. Jesse Chavez has been fine, Evan Meek has walked more batters than he's struck out but has generally kept runs off the board, and Jeff Karstens is perfectly functional, I guess, as a mopup guy. That leaves Joel Hanrahan, who I really think will produce if given time--his stuff is good and he continues to post good ratios.
As for Doumit: the Post-Gazette reports that the Bucs might consider keeping both Jason Jaramillo and Robinzon Diaz around and using Diaz in a kind of roving role. Perhaps they'll get him some at bats at third or first, which he played sparingly in the minors. I think this is very probably what they'll end up doing--Steve Pearce has all of two at bats since June 24, so plainly the Pirates think he's expendable. Jeff Salazar could also be demoted.
Here's a crazy idea, though--send Jaramillo down and install him at Indianapolis' starting catcher, then market either him or Doumit to teams who might want an upgrade at catcher. Diaz has shown he can be a perfectly good backup, but probably nothing more; Jaramillo might well be better. Jaramillo has hit .262 AVG / .335 OBP / .400 SLG so far this year while playing good defense, which probably makes him an above average starting catcher. There are several contending teams, such as the Brewers, Tigers and Rays, who have gotten very little from their catchers, so Jaramillo might well generate interest, particularly if he tears the cover off the ball at Indianapolis.
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Trades?
One has to wonder if maybe Grabow gets traded before they call up Veal. That would open up a spot. I agree that Pearce or Salazar should go back. JJ seems like a good PH plus maybe you send Doumit out to 1B or RF once a week to provide and extra start for JJ or Diaz and boost Doumit’s trade value before the break.
Good point about Grabow
"Baseball is better than football. Think about it, eighty degrees, a cold beer and a short-sleeve shirt is better than 30 degrees, a hip flask and six layers of clothes under a lap blanket. Take your pick: suntan or frostbite. " - Thomas Boswell
by Ketcham Bruce on Jul 6, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the Veal callup has to happen within a couple days, so that seems unlikely, although certainly possible.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 6, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
What’s the rule pertaining to Rule 5 draft picks? I know we have to bring Veal back, but can we not send him to the minors or cut him or something? He’s terrible.
We can’t send him to the minors without first offering him back to the Cubs. We can cut him, which at this point may not be a bad idea.
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by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 6, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
No Reason To Decide Today
The roster situation might be different once it’s time to include Milledge.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 6, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Radio Just Said
That he has to be back on the big team tomorrow. Rules are rules.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 6, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade Doumit !?!? Blasphemy !
I’m just joking. I’d like to see Dewey come back strong and the front office not move him, but if we can get a good deal for him we should trade him.
I also think you should put a block on any posts that contain the sentence " put Doumit at first base " I think we’ve beaten that horse enough.
"Baseball is better than football. Think about it, eighty degrees, a cold beer and a short-sleeve shirt is better than 30 degrees, a hip flask and six layers of clothes under a lap blanket. Take your pick: suntan or frostbite. " - Thomas Boswell
Poor horse.
Maybe we should beat on some other horse instead. (Please, PETA… I wasn’t being serious.)
Let’s trade someone for something!
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For the record...
…I was not advocating putting Ryan at 1B for the sake of making him a 1B, but rather to showcase his versatility for someone who may want him in a trade. I am 100% behind the thought that Doumit’s value is based on him being behind the plate.
Charlie's Problem is Exactly What I've Been Saying:
We have a collection of players, few of whom can play a particular position with success, and so we don’t need to trade Wilson, Sanchez, LaRoche, and Capps for more of them. What we need is some definitive position players who we can honestly say will be our starter for the rest of this season and next. We don’t need more players who have only “potential”. We need some players who have “experience” and have succeeded at their position. I don’t care if NH feels the need to trade these 4 players. I just hope that he gets more than “potential” in return.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 6, 2009 6:27 PM EDT reply actions
Why do we need proven position players this year or next?
It is obvious we are building for 2012 and 2013. Give me a high upside player. I can deal with a fill in for now.
Where’d you get that from what I wrote? I’m all about acquiring potential. I just don’t honestly think Veal has that much of it, based on what I’ve seen, and I think the Pirates are probably killing the potential he does have by using him this way.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 6, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
To give you an idea...
of how short Indy’s roster is right now…your starting CF for the Indianapolis Indians tonight…Brian Bixler.
Diaz To First
If they trade Mario, then moving Diaz to first, and using him as a back-up catcher, might be smart. If there are rumors that they want to put Diaz at first, could it be indicative that Mario is about to walk the plank?
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 6, 2009 6:30 PM EDT reply actions
Just to be clear, the Post-Gazette did not report the Pirates might use Diaz at first. The P-G said the Pirates might consider using Diaz at positions other than catcher, and I looked at his minor league record and saw that he had played at third and first.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 6, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay
Thanks for the clarification. Conspiracy theory: averted.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 6, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Diaz at first?
I have no philosophical problem with punting this season, but do we really need a guy who can’t hit for power playing a position where perhaps the only qualification is “can hit for power”?
I Don't See Why Hitting For Power Matters More Than Other Skills
I think all that matters is if a player has the skill to score more runs than he allows — hopefully a lot more. Whether he does that with speed, or his glove, or with power hitting, or with walks, or with getting hit by a a lot of pitches doesn’t matter.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 6, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but power hitters tend to generate a lot more than Diaz does, and power hitters happen to be found in abundance at first base.
They Do
But that doesn’t mean that a first baseman has to be a power hitter to be effective.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 6, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Not so much.
In the minors, he was always a good contact hitter, but didn’t walk much or hit for much power. His career ISO in the minors is only .087, which is OK for a contact-oriented C or SS, but pretty lousy for a corner player. His season high for XBH is 25.
Most likely if we lose Mario, I have heard Garret Jones would end up playing 1B more often than not. or else maybe Pearce. Platoon situation.
Not forever
I don’t think anyone’s thinking Diaz to 1B for good. Just maybe this year, if Laroche is traded. It’d be a stopgap move, on a team going nowhere this year, so qualifications for a particular position aren’t that important.
Return Veal?
Given the buccos recent trades and place in the standings, it’s clear management is looking forward to 2011/2012 (at best). Why would we give up on a 24 year old lefty that throws heat, has a decent pedigree (top-10 prospect for the cubs), and could be a future starting pitcher? I recognize he needs a ton of work/seasoning, but management has already given up on this year. Why not send down Jackson/Karstens/Meek and keep Veal in the organization. He’ll only have to rot on our roster for another 3 months. Obviously he’ll spend next year as a AAA starting pitching prospect. What’s the harm in that?
The harm is that they waste a roster spot until the end of the year. Which isn’t the biggest deal right now, I agree, but it’s been ages since Veal has had a good season, and he’s never really had one above Class A. The chances he gets turned around are remote.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 6, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Even that season in A-Ball with the sparkly looking 2.16 ERA, he walked a man more than every other inning. I’m with you that there just really isn’t anything there. The problem is that Jackson is even older, more useless in regards to the future, and a bigger waste of a roster spot. One of those two needs to be the one that goes, and it doesn’t matter much to me which one it is.
Even with his high walk rate...
he hasn’t exactly been lit up in the majors or AAA this year. We’ve come this far with him I’d hate to see us lose him now. Especially when we are not competing for anyting but respectability.
Come on.....
what is the down side of having one of the five guys with options go down and keeping Veal for 2.5 months so that we control him for four or five more years? Tons of people were arguing the same thing about Meek last year. I realize Meek isn’t maybe the next Joe Nathan, but he is a nice arm to have in our ben for NOTHING. There is absolutely no reason to give up on Meek or worry that how we use him over the next 2.5 months is going to ruin his development.
Send Jackson down for three weeks or anyone of the others. This is most likely going to sort it self out by the trade deadline of the Sept.1 call up date at the latest. Returning Veal is the least favorable option.
Well, I’m still not really convinced by Meek. But I believe the Pirates also have to keep Veal on their roster next April, because they had him “rehab” for the last month. And keep in mind that Meek was pretty good in the minors the year before the Pirates picked him up, and that he actually got to play a lot in the minors that year because the Rays let the Pirates have him. Veal hasn’t had a good year since 2006 or above A ball, and is basically forfeiting a year of his development to this whole process. He is extremely, extremely unlikely to work out. The downside is that he stinks this whole year and the beginning of next, and doesn’t get any better because he isn’t allowed to play. And the upside is? If you think the Bucs are going to get 4-5 years of competent pitching out of this, well, I guess anything’s possible, but I think the odds of that were long when this experiment began and are downright microscopic now.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 6, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't necessarily.....
disgree with your prognostication on Veal. I do disagree with the development thing. He got thirty days active down in Indy. He gets to work with Kerrigan up here. I’m not sure having 25 extra big league innings (meaning 55 as opposed to 30) is going to retard his development.
He may not be a talent, but I think sending someone else down until Sept. 1 and keeping Veal is really shuffling deck chairs in the larger picture. So, I guess I’m saying I’d rather have him and get another six months to look at him, than worry whether Chavez, Jackson or another reliever has to spend 30 days in Indy. I just can’t see any meaningful negatives.
The Pirates were actually quite lucky in April that they didn’t have a lot of games that required full use of the ‘pen. I guess the worst-case scenario here is a Meek situation where there are some extra-inning games or some starters get bombed and then all of a sudden you have to put Veal in in decisive situations. But I won’t argue this too strongly, both because this edition of the Pirates is better built to prevent these problems than the 2008 version, and because I’m as much of a look-to-the-future guy as anyone. I’d way rather have Jackson around than Veal, but you’re right, it is a deck-chairs situation.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 6, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Do we have a vacant spot on the 40-man roster
for Milledge when he comes off the 60-day DL? If so, I don’t see much downside to keeping Veal. He could still get plenty of work in games we are losing by a few runs -yesterday, for instance, if he had been on the roster he could’ve pitched the 8th instead of Karstens and maybe reduced our chances of winning the game from 1/10 of 1% to 1/20 of 1%.
Lots of pitchers don’t find their control until they are older than Veal is and as I understand it his stuff is fine, the problem is his control.
regarding veal
i’m a cubs fan that has enjoyed your site while following the veal situation. we have a similar one with david patton. we just rehabbed him today, though it was called a ‘groin strain’, but i think sore buttocks would have been more applicable.
i’d be in favor of letting you guys have veal free and clear if you’d send us a medium ceiling guy from the low minors that has yet to ‘figure it out’ or has had injury issues.
best of luck, except when you play us.
The propoganda for Hanrahan is the same as Tyler Yates: throws hard and that is the only skill. He definitely needs AAA seasoning from here. Isn’t the rule with Veal that they can send him down for free next year? I’d just wait till then and then try to convert him as a starter.
I’d demote Hanrahan and Diaz (I mean come on, his bat does not play at all at a corner) while giving Pearce more time in the MLB. Then send Salazar down when Milledge is up.
I doubt there is much of a market for Jaramillo or Doumit because of injury, but obviously if there is an offer they should listen.
Then you pretty much have to get rid of VV because he doesn’t belong at this level, and install any of Gorzy, Lincoln, (or possibly Snell again) in the MLB rotation to see what they have.
Propaganda from whom? Hanrahan was genuinely good last year. Yates has never been genuinely good. Hanrahan is several years younger than Yates. Hanrahan’s blowup this year was due almost entirely to poor luck and an atrocious Nats defense. Anything can happen, but I really think that comparing Hanrahan to Yates is like comparing apples to stinkbombs.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jul 6, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
First, he is being billed by some as a late-inning guy. He does not appear to be a player to handle clutch situations from what I’ve seen of him with the Nats the past year.
Plus, if he is getting shellacked nightly which he has been so far, that has to hurt his confidence, which is why AAA may be the best prescription.
The stuff is there for him to be good, but the huge question is whether he can put it all together.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 6, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
*Ahem*
Look at what he did in the WBC as a closer. With a good defense behind him, he’s a good pitcher.
You may not think the WBC is as “high leverage” as I do, but it’s definitely more “high leverage” than anything the Nationals have ever done. Ever.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 6, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
The WBC are Exhibition games, right? Why, Craig Monroe hit all those homeruns in Spring Training and then……
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 7, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Spring Training is against minor leaguers.
Mostly, anyway.
The World Baseball Classic is against the best players in the world from their respective countries.
Joel Hanrahan was facing players like Miguel Cabrera, Bobby Abreu, Maglio Ordonez, Justin Morneau, Jason Bay, Joey Votto, Carlos Beltran, Carlos Delgado, Alex Rios and Geovany Soto.
Monroe was facing rosters that were depleted from the WBC…in other words, pitchers that weren’t good enough to make the World Baseball Classic.
I think it’s a little different. In fact, I think it’s a lot different. Way to compare apples to oranges, though, I appreciate it.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 7, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
There were a couple of loaded teams like the US and Venezuela, and bad teams like Austrialia, Germany, the Netherlands (with Randall Simon as the star IIRC). Plus these games function as spring training where the players aren’t warmed up yet. I wouldn’t read WBC stats to mean anything at all.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 7, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
But he did put it together
Just last year.
I should say, put it together again. Snell had a great 2007 and many were willing to attribute the abysmal 2008 to bad luck on balls in play, as I believe he had the highest average in the majors. Now what do we do? It could be the same case with Hanrahan..
No one mentioned Joel’s 2007 before here for some reason, either.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 7, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Didn't Snell
used to pitch inside before?
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Nobody mentioned his 2007 season
Because he was a starter, not a reliever. Also, rookie years are rearely indicative of entire MLB careers.
Again, though, thanks for comparing apples to oranges.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 7, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure we should trade JJ.
If we can get an offer for him that’s a better return that what we’re giving up in JJ, sure, but I like the idea of keeping him.
This is his rookie year, so we control his rights for five more seasons after this one. He isn’t young; he’ll be 31 when his arbitration years are up. However, he’s been pretty good for us as a starter, and I’d like to see him continue to start when Doumit is gone. At worst, we’ll have an above-average backup when Tony Sanchez is up.
Due to his rookie status, JJ doesn’t have the same “won’t be here the next time the Pirates are competitive” status that the rest of the players we’ve traded (aside from maybe McLouth) did. He could very well be here. He could be a starter, too. Or, like I said, an above-average backup at worst.
Wouldn’t you love to be in the position of catcher that the Indians are in with Victor Martinez and Kelly Shopach both behind the plate? Or the Rangers, who have Saltalamacchia and Teagarden? I think that especially with the lack of depth at catcher in our system, Jaramillo is more valuable to keep than to trade as of this year.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 6, 2009 9:49 PM EDT reply actions
Your second basemen will soon be ours
Sincerely
A Giants Fan
The San Francisco Giants: Where old men go to die.
Sweet.
Just make sure your GM overpays for him like he does for every other veteran. Buster Posey would look mighty nice in our system, as would Nick Noonan or Ehire Adrianza.
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by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 6, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
That about sums it up.
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by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 6, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Brilliant suggestion
I say we start with the bench, and then move on to the bullpen.
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trade doumit???
DONT TRADE DOUMIT!!! atleast not this season. he has been on the DL almost all season, and his trade value is not quite what it should be. he is a switch hitting catcher with a bit of power and he has hit around .300 for the most part. any team is not going to offer what he is really worth. there are not many catchers that can hit the ball consistantly, hold on to him for one more year atleast and hope he has a better season next year when some team will give up more than he is worth for a decent hitter at catcher.
plus j.j. hasnt proven to be as effective of a hitter as doumit has, unless someone makes a terrific offer for him keep him. until sanchez is ready to play.
Doumit Is 28
He’s not likely a part of the next good Pirates team. Jaramillo might be. And if not him, Sanchez.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 7, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
He made valid points, though.
If you were a GM, would you give up the farm for a powerful, switch hitting catcher who has a penchant for getting injured and spent most of this year on the DL?
His value will be higher next year. This isn’t the year to move him.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 7, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Being Injured
Didn’t stop Neal from wanting Lastings Milledge.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 7, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
And the Nats sold very low…we shouldn’t want to do the same.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 7, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, if we could get a Nyjer-type back for Doumit...
…then how could we refuse? The chance to downgrade ourselves substantially behind the plate in exchange for a role-player? Sign me up!
His value will be higher next season...
only if he doesn’t get hurt again.
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trade adam
trade adam put doumit at first that way you have a platoon at catcher and then hopefully in 3-4 years sanchez will be ready to at least have a back up roll and you can deal diaz or jj, if they trade any of our infield minus adam i will be upset
CITY OF CHAMPYINZ
Is Doumit at first some kind of new fetish industry that I’m jut not privvy to? Seriously, he’d be a bad first baseman. Get over it.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 7, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
With a name like Yinzer
and a sig that says CHAMPYINZ, I can safely say that this fellow thinks trading Jack Wilson would be the end of the world, and that moving Doumit to first will make him the next Pujols.
A Note on Jackson's ERs
Steven Jackson, who’s been a mess of walks and runs (ten overall, including three unearned, in 16.3 innings)
Don’t forget that 2 more of those runs could very well have been unearned – they came on HRs after Andy booted 3 balls in the 9th of that Cleveland game. The first one wasn’t called an error, but surely could have been.
Now, obviously, the whole thing was a blowup, and doesn’t reflect well on Jackson. But when half of his runs came in a situation that never should have happened, I’m reluctant to draw strong conclusions. IOW, but for Andy’s boot, you could be talking about Jackson’s pleasant surprise as a guy with only 5 runs in 16.6 innings.
Small sample sizes will get you every time (on a related note, haven’t virtually all of Veal’s runs and walks come in 2 AAA appearances? I’m not checking, but that’s my recollection).
After error number...one, was it?
Would all runs after that be unearned? I think there were two outs.
Overall
I don’t think it’s meaningful in any way to talk about roster spots and the like wrt 2009. This has been my hobbyhorse since the Nate trade – NH decided then that he would make no effort to compete in this year (not that the team was likely to, mind you), in which case it’s foolish to expend any effort on the matter. 2010 is obviously a lost cause as well. The only consideration affecting the ML roster is not rushing any real prospects and, maybe, fucking up the psyches of young pitchers with laughable defense (although I have no idea whether that’s a real issue – will Morton really be a worse pitcher in 2011 if his defense in 2009 is awful? Doubtful).
So, say it again: trade Duke, trade Doumit, trade the entire IF save Andy. None of them will contribute to a playoff team, so move them out and hope you get a player or two who might.
Why Trade Duke?
I agree with the general strategy of “blow it up.” But Duke is a 26-year-old pitcher. He’s still developing. I think that Duke is the kind of player we should be trading for.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 7, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Sell high.
Duke has had a bad career bookended by two good halves. That’s why we should trade him. Now is the time we can get something out of him.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 7, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
PS
I know he’s a pitch to contact guy and it’s mostly our defense that has helped him.
With that in mind, how good do you think he’ll look with Nyjer Morgan, Freddy Sanchez, Adam LaRoche and Jack Wilson all gone next year? That’s 3/4 of the infield and a major part of the outfield as far as defense is concerned.
Now is the time to sell high.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jul 7, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
He's 26
Pitchers often take longer to develop than other players. I think trading him now would be foolish.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 7, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Zach Duke is a 26-year-old pitcher...
…who’s used up all of his pre-arb years, as well as his cheapest arb year. He’s right on the cusp of costing more than he’s worth.
Trading him for value would be a very good idea.
I prefer Paul Janish
on the mound to Donnie Veal.
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