Young, Jones, Pearce, Diaz, & Vazquez

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 6, 2009 10:48 PM EDT Comment 35 comments

"Man looks in the abyss, there's nothing staring back at him. At that moment man finds his character. And that is what keeps him out of the abyss."--Lou Mannheim: "Wallstreet"

Please remember this speech given to Bud Foxx as he was being hauled away to jail by federal authorities because it's the only thing that going to help while management continues to run out the aforementioned guys and others just like them. There is no speed, power, or good defense in these guys and it readily explains why we cannot score. Even if management replaces them it will simply be with others of similar skills and so the scoring drought will continue and the team will languish in last place extending their record losing streak. As long as we keep trading our starters for Class AAA talent with "potential" we will have trouble scoring and forget about winning.

There are several ways in which to rebuild a ballclub and trading veterans for guys with "potential" can work but it requires the most time of all of methods. Why not try mixing potential with a few established starters and give the fan base something to hang onto? Tonight's lineup was equivalent to AAA level talent and it won't be the last time we'll see a group of players like this all starting on the same night.

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“Why not try mixing potential with a few established starters and give the fan base something to hang onto?”

Because this will only delay us becoming a legit contender for a playoff spot and world series title. If we waste resources we have on established, but low potential talent, we will keep trotting out teams like we have now. (No offense to guys like Freddy, Adam, Jack, etc.)

However, I do agree it doesn’t hurt to get some older guys back that may not have the highest ceiling because they can fulfill two responsibilities. They are able to make sure we don’t lose 150 games and they may develop into tradebait soon rather than later.

What I really don’t get is people who claim we aren’t trading for MLB ready talent…

I count these guys procured in trades under NH who are MLB ready and have played (or will soon play) for the Pirates

Andy Laroche
Brandon Moss
Charlie Morton
Ross Ohlendorf
Jeff Karstens
Craig Hansen

and most recently

Lastings Milledge
Joel Hanrahan

Thats, by my count, 8 Major League players out of 15 we’ve gotten in the last 5 major trades in which we have dealt a player who has played in Pittsburgh (7 total players)
Thats over 50%!

In no particular order

Jason Bay
Nyjer Morgan
Sean Burnett
Xavier Nady
Nate McLouth
Eric Hinske
Damaso Marte

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 6, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Also, the major league talent we have gotten in return is better than what we have given away in all but the Bay trade. Much rather have Ohlendorf, Karstens, Morton, Milledge, and Hanrahan over Nady, Marte, McLouth, Nyjer, and Burnett right now let alone in a couple of years.

This year’s lineup should get better than tonight’s depressing sight, even when Adam/Freddy are gone, because of the hopeful returns of Doumit and Milledge – two very good talents who should produce for us.

by Gorkys n' Beans on Jul 6, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget these deals...

Jose Bautista for Robinzon Diaz

and

Ronnie Paulino for Jason Jaramillo

and

2 PTBNL and cash for Delwyn Young

by Brakeman8 on Jul 7, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the number is 8 , but it should be 7.

Brandon Moss is not a major league baseball player.
  He should be in the minors until he proves he can hit consistently for more than a week long stretch.
   I think what you see with this guy is the best you are going to get.
    Horrendous strike out to walk ratio, the patented 1 hopper to 1st base and the lack of ability to lay off the terrible off the plate breaking pitch, only cements the opinion i have of him.
   He is nothing but a pinch hitter, late inning defensive replacement, as a major league player.
   Hope for 2010, if unfortunately he is still on the team, he is not handed a starting position when spring training begins.
    Just wish they had an option left on this guy.

by tom p on Jul 7, 2009 4:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Moss has already proven in the minors...

…that he can hit consistently for more than a week-long stretch. He’s done it for several years now, in fact.

by Vlad on Jul 7, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For the love of God

I thought we were finally done with the Moss-bashing? Moss’ OPS is currently .689. That’s 59th in the league. That makes him a bottom end 3rd OFer offensively. Throw in the fact that he’s above average defensively, and is it really all that bad? Really??? He’s also not 28 years old. He’s 25. He has 473 career major league at-bats. He has a minor league record that suggests he’s better than this. His MLE OPS in ‘07 at AAA at the age of 23 was .800. So let’s please drop it before I explode.

by ILLZ on Jul 7, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

I will agree with you about...

The significant improvement in pitching depth NH has acquired. That is a given. My complaint was centered around the position players we now have from which to choose…and it isn’t good. I like the contributions Andy L brings to the table and am willing to wait a few years to see if his power develops because he has a great glove and can hit for average. Moss on the other hand, seems to be a bust to me and cannot drive in runs or hit for power. Once Jack, Adam and Freddie are gone we will have very little talent in any of the position players and certainly no power or defense at all and that is my concern.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 7, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why is no power or defense at all your concern?

Cutch and LaRoche are the only ones in the field today that will be there when we contend. Who gives a shit if Wilson and Sanchez go? We all know their replacements are in the minor or TBD.

by vanslyke on Jul 7, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why do you care about power so much?

What pennant race are you watching?

by vanslyke on Jul 7, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

vanslyke

I care for power because I am unable to view this year and the next two years as “throw-away” years. How does management expect to hold onto their fan base with this type of mentality? I understand the need to plan for the future but your assumption is that it WILL happen and that it’s just a matter of time. My assumption is that it MIGHT happen and that you just can’t shit-can the rest of this year plus the next two years in hopes you are right. If Russell can’t see this then he had better update his resume’ because he won’t still be here after 3 consecutive 90-loss seasons which is what will happen if management adopts your full method. You simply cannot just write off the rest of this season and the next two years because if you do then Contraction becomes a distinct possibility.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 7, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Holy Rant

Contraction has nothing to do with losing. MLB is in great financial shape and most if not all organizations are turning a profit based on the luxury tax system. While it is not exactly and even playing field from market to market, there is no way the product is dilluted enough to warrant contraction. Even 20 plus losing seasons does not equal contraction.

As far as losing the fan base, we have averaged 1.8 million fans over the life of PNC Park’s 8 year existence. If they havent stopped going by now, they wont. That is another safe bet.

While we have posted AD NAUSEUM about the direction of this team, at least our goal is putting a sustained winning team on the field. It is only a matter of when we start winning. Before, there was ZERO talent in our system. Look at how much high upside talent we have now. This plan is better than Bonifay/Littlefield/McClatchy ever could put together. So let’s get on board. At least there is an end game as opposed to competing for .500.

by vanslyke on Jul 7, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if the fans are still around after 16 losing seasons

what makes you think one or two more will suddenly make them quit?

by johnnycuff on Jul 7, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Contraction is about one thing:

Threatening small markets into building taxpayer-funded stadia for their teams.

That’s it. That’s the whole deal. And since we knuckled under and built our stadium, there’s basically zero chance of us being contracted at any point in the next 30+ years.

by Vlad on Jul 8, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also...

Virgil Vasquez? (sp?)

I think he’s pitched quite tidily overall.

by BlindSquirrel on Jul 7, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We will get these "few established starters"

where? BTW, we already have some “established starters” (Andy, Cutch, the catching combo), so maybe that’s who you meant?

Or are you just babbling?

Again?

by bucdaddy on Jul 7, 2009 12:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes

by Slizeezyc on Jul 7, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IPF

Think back a few years ago to Derek Bell, Terry Mulholland and Pat Mears. We tried to sprinkle those FAs in with the likes of young talent ala Jack Wilson and Adrian Brown remember. How did that work out for us?

Since 1992, we have not gone through the wholesale rebuilding process like we are now. This iteration of rebuilding is almost like building an expansion team sans the expansion draft. The last two bozos we had in the GM’s office wrecked our team with bad trades, poor talent evaluting and salary dumps (for which you can blame McClatchy).

Right now, we can draw 1.5 million with just bobbleheads and fireworks. PNC Park is a sideshow and the “experience” is drawing people. The product on the field is irrelevant. The Pirate fans dont need a bone since they obviously have been filling the park since it opened in 2001 with the shitty product on the field.

by vanslyke on Jul 7, 2009 9:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

filling the ballpark? Really? Have you seen Sunday afternoon gameso on TV?

by biglar33 on Jul 7, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

vanslyke

Your point is well-taken and I would normally agree with you except for the fact that we don’t have those same bozos in the front office anymore and we are all assuming NH has knowledge and wouldn’t acquire players with similar skill sets as Bell, Mulholland and Mears. As I watched the game last night I couldn’t imagine any of the players I mentioned coming up in an important situation and driving in any runs. Even the announcers mentioned how far Moss was hitting balls during batting practice and how many he was hitting for homeruns. But in the next breathe they mentioned how much trouble he was having this year and that he only had 2 homeruns. I think we all know the answer to that one: he’s like Pedro Sorano in Major League—he can’t hit a curve ball. Yet management continues to run him out there wasting valuable ABs. I think it’s obvious why Boston let us have him and neither he nor Pearce are ever going to supply us with any power. We desparately need some power in the lineup and could have had it had they acquired Adam Dunne as I suggested. But then that is the type of player I’m hearing you say we should avoid.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 7, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Valuable ABs"

What other players should these valuable ABs be used on if not Moss? Delwyn and Jones? If so those aren’t exactly compelling reasons. As for the Cerrano comparisons, maybe you shouldn’t just read what someone says and retype it thinking its clever

As for Adam Dunne [sic], it doesn’t really help anything by signing him this year — especially at the beginning of this year when it seemed like the OF situation was always going to be Nyjer, Nate, and then Moss in RF. You can’t trade for Moss (who like it or not has a solid track record in the minors) and then not give him a chance to get regular ABs for at least a year or year and a half. You need to give guys who have the potential to be around the ABs, not give them to Adam Dunn for half a season before trying to unload him.

by Slizeezyc on Jul 7, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously IPF

You need to drop the need for power and any semblence of competing this year. Valuable ABs are the ones given to prospects with upside of which we have Moss and Pearce. DY, Jones, Salazar are bit players at best and may not even be here when we contend. Get over this year and get on board with wath the FO is doing. They arent going to do it your way or with Adam Dunn types.

by vanslyke on Jul 7, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

vanslyke

I agree that valuable ABs are given to prospect with upside but Moss and Pearcedo not have an upside. This is as good as they get and no amount of ABs are going to improve them and that is the heart of my argument. As long as management continues to trade existing talent for stiffs like this we are nevver going to improve. They must stop acquiring guys with potential only and start acquiring some guys who have proven themselves. Exactly how much longer do you expect the fan base to accept 90-loss seasons while management trades off the few guys that improve and replace them with “potential”. If you wait 3 years you won’t have a fan base left. Our second generation is starting to emerge of fans who have never seen any winning teams. You simply have to give the fans hope…

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 7, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

guys who have proven themselves

cost better than what we are offering…all the Pirates can get are prospects with potential because of the risk factor which makes them less valuable then someone who is established unless said person is at 30 or older, in which case, you would be Dave Littlefield

by Green_Wave on Jul 7, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The attendance figures dont lie

we are not going to lose fans. I have said it AD NAUSEUM. We have not and will not lose fans. It doesnt matter if we have 5 more losing seasons. Baseball in Pittsburgh is a tradition. PNC Park is a destination. Second generation fans will come around when they win. Quit worrying about the fans and understand what the FO is doing to put a winner on the field.

by vanslyke on Jul 7, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Have Never Watched A Winning Pirates Team

And I don’t care.

Pittsburgh is full of college kids with who want something to do for cheap. Pirates tickets are eight bucks. In two years, Pittsburgh will still be full of college kids who want something to do for cheap.

by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 7, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Slizeezyc

If you think accusing me of plagerism or criticizing my spelling is going to create further discussions between us then you are wrong.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 7, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think he was criticizing your spelling, IPF.

It is correct to put [sic] after a misspelled word when quoting.

Now as far as Moss and Pearce not having an upside, you’re half-right, IMO.

Also, signing Dunn would not have made a lick of difference in wins or losses. His horrific defense neutralizes his offense.

Also, as citeed in many other posts, most FA’s don’t want to play in Pittsburgh.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 7, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

With regard to your last point

Do you think Dunn would have preferred Washington if he had had the chance to come here for the same money? I agree it would have been a mistake to want him, but I didn’t think we were below Washington on desirable-places-for-FAs-to-play list.

by WestCoastBuc on Jul 8, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah,

PGH is not a destination point for most FA’s.

There was someone this offseason (can’t be arsed to look it up now) that went somewhere else for less than the Pirates offered.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 8, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes I have

you cant take into account the people in the seats – especially on a Sunday since it is kids day. There are a few playgrounds smattered throughout PNC Park and many people mill around the rotundas. Very few people are actually glued to their seat.

Anyway, the Pirates average attendance since PNC Park opened is 1,806,830. This with only bobbleheads and fireworks. Can you imagine if we actually put a winner on the field – and by winner I dont mean 1 or 2 games over .500!

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/pitatte.shtml

by vanslyke on Jul 7, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I Think Pittsburghers Just Like To Go Out To A Ballgame

I don’t think the people around here care if the team wins or not. I’ve been to a few games this year when the stands were full. And everybody liked to cheer, even though everybody knows that the team sucks.

by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 7, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you look at the above link

we were drawing over 2M in the cookie cutter, unbaseball friendly Three Rivers Stadium when we were winning. Just think how many more we would draw to PNC Park if we actually contended! 2M would be a low figure…..

by vanslyke on Jul 7, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

PNC Park Capacity

PNC Park capacity is 38,496. The most the Pirates could possibly draw in a season is 38,496*81, or 3,118,176. It’s the second-smallest stadium in the majors. If they sold out every single game, they’d be somewhere around seventh in attendance.

Right now, the Pirates are nearly dead last in attendance. And they have the third-cheapest tickets.

by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jul 7, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Penguins sold out every game

when they won. If the Pirates were perenial contenders, then they could sell out every game. Look at the Sox in Fenway. They didnt sell out every game when they sucked in the 90’s. Anyway, number of fans don’t matter to the bottom line – it is the revenue you generate. Once we put a winner on the field, you can jack up ticket prices which makes you more profitable. Even if we sold every single seat for every single game, we would take 7th in attendance out of all 32 MLB teams today in a heartbeat. Then we could afford some high priced talent.

by vanslyke on Jul 7, 2009 5:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Quoting 80's movies to validate your impatience...interesting.

OK Dave Littlefield…I mean IPF, whether you like it or not the Pirates have a budget to work within. It is not anywhere close to the budget the Yankees have to work with so I’m not sure what “experienced” players you hope we acquire but we will not be able to buy ourselves a competitive team. Following your line of thought would get us players like Burnitz, Randa, Bell, Morris, etc… The plan we are following is the right one. Yeah it sucks because it will take a while to see it bear fruit but it is the right plan. You are an impatient person I understand. This is what causes you to jump from one position to the next between innings. If we would have followed your plan coming into the season we would have cut Duke, both Laroche’s, Moss and Karstens. We would have started the season with with Cutch, Tabata and McCloth in th OF, Walker, Cruz, Bixler and Pearce at 1B in the IF. And we would be platooning Paulino and Doumit at Catcher. Not sure, hindsight being 20-20 and all, if that’s the team you’d want on the field right now but I think I’ll put my trust in Neil Huntington any day of the week over you. I’m sure after tomorrow’s game your emotions will swing in another direction requiring you to make yet another post. Maybe the next one will have you calling for Zach Duke’s head again…who knows. All I know is that you flip flop more than a fish out of water. Let’s rebuild…no let’s buy free agents…no lets rebuild and buy free agents…no let’s trade for Tex and Halladay and Pujols and oh what the hell ever! It’s official I can’t stand your posts and you will be happy to know I won’t comment on another one in the future. Have fun getting upset with yourself!

by Slick1 on Jul 7, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs