Frank Coonelly: Pirates Will Raise Payroll to Compete
by Charlie on Aug 11, 2009 2:18 PM EDT
106 comments
This year's trades slashed about $7 million from the Pirates' payroll. But the team also spent $5 million to build a baseball academy in the Dominican Republic, increased its budget for scouting and held firm on a $10 million budget for draft bonuses at a time when other clubs are cutting back.
"If we're doing this right — and we think we are — then there will come a time when we'll have to increase the major-league payroll," Pirates president Frank Coonelly said.
This is, of course, the key. The spending on the draft and Latin America and the trades of veteran players for youngsters are critical, but it's also important that the Pirates be willing to raise the major league payroll substantially when they have enough talent to compete. Feel free to refer back to this article if the Pirates are about to take off in a couple years but still have an absurdly low payroll.
One more link. I thought this article about Neil Walker was ridiculous:
"The sheer truth is that I'm a young guy, and I feel like I can play at the major league level," Walker said before pausing. "And if Pittsburgh isn't the place I make it, I'm confident there is somewhere that I will make it. I just really don't know what the future is for me with this organization"...
"Treated differently?" Walker replied to a question on that topic. "I don't know if 'differently' would be the right word, but you can tell who the old guys are and who the new guys are. I just look at it like this: In any situation, in any business, new bosses come in and want their guys and are more comfortable with people they see as their guys. That's the situation I feel like I'm in. I'm not one of their guys. Bixler and I are not their guys, and it isn't hard to tell we aren't their guys."
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I think its pretty clear that Neil Walker is not going to pan out. If Pedro keeps on performing he is going to take Walker’s spot at 3b as early as the beginning of next year. Unless Walker catches fire now or Pedro hits a few setbacks his future is not with the Pirates.
agreed
we should trade him now to see if he can garner any value at all
Carlos Guillen, the Latino Nick Punto - BouJouma
Please takeyour latte circle jerk to another thread. -WU
babies are young and under team control for at least 12 years -Billyok
i heard kenny williams' mother bought a lottery ticket and lost so kenny williams traded his mother - Billyok
I can't see
Alvarez being up next year. Or Neal Walker ever taking the position away from Andy Laroche.
by thecheeseisblue on Aug 11, 2009 2:38 PM EDT reply actions
Alvarez looks almost certain to get to AAA next year which would squeeze Walker out of playing time unless Walker outplays him or plays well enough to get promoted, which looks pretty unlikely.
by ravidesai1984 on Aug 11, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah yes, I keep forgetting Walker has a spot
I was already considering that slot as open.
by thecheeseisblue on Aug 11, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
The guess here
Is that Pedro starts 2010 in Altoona. If he’s still raking by the end of April, he’s in Indy at which time Walker gets moved out of the way. If Pedro is still doing well, NH will likely bring him up to the bigs in June if he sees him making a material impact. If he thinks it won’t help the big league team enough, odds are it’ll be June 2011 before we see Pedro.
Good day.
My take as well
It’s hard to imagine NH bringing Pedro up before June, and it’s hard to imagine waiting all the way until June 2011 to bring him up. But we’ll see.
Think you are right
I think Pedro will start in Triple A. He’s played well enough in Altoona to deserve the promotion.
But the Bucs will keep him in Altoona until June to hold off arbitration.
Might as well. It’s not like the team will be leading the division.
His defense isn't the problem
His bat is so bad it probably isn’t even passable as a relief pitcher
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
utility 2B/3B/CF/3rd C?
How bought as a 25th man that can play 2B/3B/CF/3rd C?
I am probably giving his defense too much credit to think he could develop into that………
Just trying to get something out of him given my belief that it is likely a .300 OBP will be a reach for him in the majors.
so kind of like rob mackowiak
only not as good
Carlos Guillen, the Latino Nick Punto - BouJouma
Please takeyour latte circle jerk to another thread. -WU
babies are young and under team control for at least 12 years -Billyok
i heard kenny williams' mother bought a lottery ticket and lost so kenny williams traded his mother - Billyok
It must take
a super-healthy ego to make it even as far as Walker has in professional sports. It’s why I’ve written before that virtually every one of these guys must believe he’s only one at-bat or one game or one break away from, as Charlie puts it, setting the league on fire. And if he believes that, he must also believe it’s true of the guys at the lockers on either side of his. It’s why you see such ridiculous things said about teammates who get traded.
Delusional
sense of entitlement. Maybe NH has been refering to Walker(along with other DL leftovers) when he’s said “No more free rides” a couple times this past year
If he just . . .
left the whole “their guys” rant out of his comments, I wouldn’t have an issue with it. I don’t think there is anything wrong with believing in yourself, as long as it isn’t such as to prohibit you from acknowledging your flaws and trying to improve on them.
The whole comments about “their guys” things is a bit delusional, however. It’s never a good argument when you rely on Biran Bixler to illustrate your point in a positive manner.
Why is Bixler mentioned at all?
I mean, if ever there’s been an example of a guy failing to seize opportunities….
That said, I hate Bixler for going on a tear right now and making me think, even for a moment, “Well maybe….”
Strange
that management treats McCutchen, but not Walker, like one of their guys. Whatever could account for this disparate treatment?
by maguro on Aug 11, 2009 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I Lol’d
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 11, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Walkers still our best third base prospect
How can all of you guys write off Walker when he has’nt even taken an at bat in the major leagues? Everyone keeps going back to his statistics in the minors and him not earning a promotion. But like he said he was a defensive mvp and drove in 80 rbis in the same year thats fact, not projection… he just needs a chance, and I think he would make everyone in Pittsburgh forget Andy Laroche ever existed. Neil has a way higher ceiling than Andy LaRoche. LaRoche has absolutely zero power potential, and his defense is average when hes at his best. Then everyone just wants to wait around for Pedro, scouts have been saying since the days he was drafted, he won’t stick at third because of his defense. Pedro will be a firstbasemen, trust me. And if I recall correctly its not exactly like Pedro is hitting for a great average and not striking out. Also if i remember correctly its not like McCutchen tore the cover off the ball and earned a promotion. When McCutchen got promoted nobody saw it coming because he statistics were average. Ever think Neils just bored in AAA and would thrive playing in Pittsburgh and get coaching everyday at third from Perry Hill? He’d be a gold glover….
Bixler on the other hand I can understand….hes had his opportunities in Pittsburgh and has not performed…understandable. But when Walker hasnt taken an at bat in majors yet and is a 1st round pick (regardless of who drafted him) I think it’d be absurd to trade him.
Where are you getting your information
Andy LaRoche was considered one of the top power hitting prospects in the league, and still has time to reach that potential. His defense is also average at worst, most likely better than that. Andy is better right now, and has more potential than Neil Walker.
by thecheeseisblue on Aug 11, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
McCutchen was hitting .303/.361/.493 when he was promoted.
That is, for the record, a higher OPS than Walker has ever put up, at any level, in any season.
I'm thinking
Cutch probably scored alot of the runs that were driven in by Walker. RBIs are a reflection of the situation in which a batter hits, not his performance overall. But getting on base shouldn’t earn you a promotion, what am I thinking?
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
"You don't walk to the majors."
Maybe that’s when everyone should have kinda thought, hey maybe Neil doesn’t quite get it?
Exactly.
This should have been a huge point of concern, and the fact that he isn’t walking still should send up big red flags. Great athletes who knwo their sport know when they’re being told to do something wrong.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
No one saw McCutchen’s promotion coming?
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2009/5/27/890974/andrew-mccutchen-its-time
No disrespect, but RBIs are a horrible indicator of a player’s value. Walker has been awful with the bat since 2007.
agreed
timely hitting is also a huge factor
Carlos Guillen, the Latino Nick Punto - BouJouma
Please takeyour latte circle jerk to another thread. -WU
babies are young and under team control for at least 12 years -Billyok
i heard kenny williams' mother bought a lottery ticket and lost so kenny williams traded his mother - Billyok
Well since everyone else is expecting it
Hello Mrs. Walker. But seriously, Walker straight up isn’t getting on base at a .300 clip. That is pretty worthless for a AAA hitter who is too old. LaRoche’s OBP is almost .360, in the Majors too. I would love more than anything to see Walker take off, but LaRoche is WAY more valuable right now and will be in the future. Walker didn’t have time to get bored at AAA. He never hit there. Was he bored when he got there?
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
While I'm at it, on power potential:
LaRoche’s single-season high for HR is 30.
Walker has had exactly one season in which he managed even half that many (16, in 2008).
I wonder what Neil Walker has done
to deserve a fan as devoted as you. Did he perform emergency open-heart surgery on you with a Taco Bell spork? Whatever it was, I’m thinking it’s got to be pretty amazing.
Talk about saying what you feel
and not thinking about it. Jeez. Some research would be helpful for you to come to the realization that walker isn’t good..at all. You have to be his brother or something.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Some people still think Google is some sort of strange fetish.
by lighthouse913 on Aug 11, 2009 4:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
what you smokin???
to think that walker is our best third base prospect? get off of whatever it is, it is clearly making you a total retard. i would love to see walker get called up so we can finally see just how bad he is. who cares about how good his defense is? you cant put up those kinda numbers in AAA at thridbase. i bet if pedro was called up to AAA today that he would put up numbers that would come close to what walker has done this year. walker is a bust. he wouldnt be on any team in the league’s roster. him and bixler should just be released so we could see what else we got down there. and the quote that he is not one of NH guys is just what he keeps telling himself to convince himself that he doesnt totally suck.
you must be smoking what walker is smokin.
Obviously
some people are low on Walker and others are high. Obviously some people are high on LaRoche and others are low. Obviously some people think Pedro can stick at 3rd and others think he will have to move to first.
The good thing in this situation is the different options that could emerge. Two years ago it was… just Walker.. and Joey Bats.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 11, 2009 3:56 PM EDT reply actions
AND
the most important point in this post is the promise to increase spending. It is obviously a good sign, but two things bother me.
1. Its Coonelly and not Nutting who came out and promised a budget increase. Looking at the situation from one view point, it makes sense that the team President would address this in the media, but at the same time he doesn’t (ultimately) sign the checks. Nutting signs the checks, and thats why I’d be more comfortable if Coonelly at least mentioned or quoted a conversation in which he talked to Nutting.
2. There was no specific amount promised. The FO could spend 5 or 10 million more for a few years and still never really give us a chance.
Lets hope my fears are unfounded.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 11, 2009 4:02 PM EDT reply actions
Dude....
it’s Coonelly’s job, not Nutting’s.
my point is
I would feel more comfortable if Nutting would come out and say it. I do think that it is Coonelly’s job so it isn’t a big red flag if Nutting says something, but I would still hope/prefer for Coonelly to say something like
“I had conversation with Mr. Nutting and he gave me his word that as our talent develops we will do everything in our power monetarily to keep that talent Pittsburgh.”
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 12, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Coonelly isn't.....
going to say anything unless he knows the ownership is on the same page, obviously.
Walker
I’ll agree with nearly everyone here. Walker is delusional. You can’t hit .240 in triple A with an OBP under .300 and expect a promotion. I can’t think of one MLB star who has a similar minor-league trajectory who has succeeded.
If Walker weren’t a first-round pick, he’d probably be gone this offseason. I still think he has one more year of a free ride.
As for the team budget, I very much hope the increase FC promised will happen.
I disagree with a lot of people on here about BN. We’ll know in three years whether he’s committed to winning and willing to pay to get players like Cutch.
I am hoping
we know alot sooner than 3 years from now if he is willing to pay Cutch
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Like...
this off-season? I mean, if Nutting is cheap, but wants to make it look like an effort is being made then signing Cutch to a Longoria-like extension would be the best thing to do. if he isn’t cheap, then that would still be the best thing to do. If he is cheap and doesn’t care if everyone knows it…then I don’t know what the best thing to do would be
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
If he is cheap and doesn’t care if everyone knows it…
He should pile up all his luxury tax dough in one room and swan-dive into it, Scrooge McDuck style.
haha
+1 to both Green_Wave and maguro
I would have thought you might want to wait a little bit (like next offseason) before the long-term contract, although they should be talking to him about it for some time before that, primairly to see if the rest of the plan was still on track, and that the people we hope would challenge for the division in 2012, were at least on track to make the Major leagues in 2011
If I make enough money to do that
I would. I would thoroughly enjoy it
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Could always get paychecks cashed in all ones
It would still have the same feeling
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Good point
hmmm…
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Three years
I agree. I hope we do have a read on what ownership is willing to spend before three years.
But with the team being so young—and outside of Cutch no one deserving an extension—I think it’s going to take a while.
maguro, nicely written and imagery.
What's the reason a player would sign a contract like Longoria's?
Obviously he signed it, it just seems like it would be difficult to replicate.
Ryan Braun
signed a similar contract.
Hanley signed a large extension although he got considerably more money. One of the reasons has to be the instant jump from 400,000 a year to multi millions.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 11, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Risk aversion.
Once you sign that kind of deal, you’re set for life. Sure, he could maybe make more by going year-to-year, or waiting a few seasons, but then there’s a slim-but-nonzero chance that he’ll hurt himself or be a bust and never see that kind of money again.
For Longoria, it was worth it to avoid that risk. For Cutch, who knows?
Of course
If Longoria continues to produce all star level numbers and doesn’t get injured, it becomes a bad contract for him. But, of course, hindsight is/will be 20-20
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
If I don’t get in an accident or pulled over, paying car insurance premiums are a pretty bad move too.
charity standing orders
Funny and true
Because I’m one of those people that probably wouldn’t pay car insurance if I didn’t need to. It’s a good analogy because I feel the same way about my driving as I’m sure most uber prospects feel about their game, but at the same time it’s probably not worth the risk and the added security is a plus.
It's a bad....
contract for Longoria today. Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have done it, but it is incredibly advantageous to Tampa, with some obvious small risk.
Yeah, I get that
I just don’t see why you’d give team options for 3 free agency years…
by hisjazziness on Aug 11, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Because the only guarantees in life are death, taxes, and major league contracts.
by McGreal on Aug 11, 2009 5:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well…Walker is right…and he’s wrong.
He’s right that there has definitely appeared to be a bias toward players acquired by the current management…and against those from the previous regime. Where he’s wrong…is in feeling that HE deserves to be on the ML team. He’s done nothing on offense to justify his call-up. Although…he’s not as far off as it might appear.
If you are a position player or a starting pitcher from the previous regime (Pearce, Bixler, Gorzo, Snell, etc.), you screw up…you get sent down. You are from the current regime and struggle (RV, Andy, Moss, Salazero, VV)…at worst…you get benched (unless you get replaced by another from the current regime). And sometimes you don’t even get benched.
I don’t doubt that Walker sees what kind of numbers that LaRoche is putting up…and thinks he’s capable of that. And he well may be. I have no way of comparing them defensively other than looking at their minor league fielding percentages…which have been fairly close for the 2007-8 seasons.
BTW…here are 3 players #’s at Indy this year
Player 1…296 plate appearances…22 2B, 2 3B, 11 HR, 52 RBI, 127 Total bases, 21 BB, 48 K.
Player 2…295 plate appearances…18 2B, 0 3B, 12 HR, 49 RBI, 139 TB, 18 BB, 47 K.
Player 3…317 plate appearances…18 2B, 1 3B, 13 HR, 54 RBI, 137 TB, 34 BB, 46 K.
Biggest difference in the 3…player 2 gets one more single a week than player 1…and player 2 gets one more single every other week than player 3.
So…an extra single every week or two…is the only real difference in offensive production at Indianapolis this season between Player 2 (Garrett Jones), Player 3 (Steven Pearce), and Player 1 (Neil Walker)…and Walker may be the most capable defensively of the 3…if scouting reports are correct.
Yes...
for purposes of this argument…I’m ignoring major league performance…since Walker has none. I’m talking similar playing conditions at a similar level. And consider…Jones is the oldest of the 3 at 28…Walker the youngest at just shy of 24….with Pearce in the middle at 26.
The difference between Jones and Walker in AAA was just batting average, but Pearce has a better average and more walks.
And yet...
Jones is God’s gift to the Pirates lineup in some eyes…for the next several years…just because of 2 hot weeks.
No.....
stop with the stupid, fallacious arguments. I don’t care at all whether you like Jones or not. But, if you are going to present an interesting argument above with facts about Jones, Pearce and Walker, then don’t follow it up with an idiotic post.
We have shouted down all the people who think “Jones is God’s gift to the Pirates lineup in some eyes…for the next several years.” The reality is nobody here is making that argument. The other reality is the guy is slashing .297/.362/1.014 which is by far the best on the team in 152 PAs. I don’t care whether you think it’s a fluke or not, it is fact and it isn’t two weeks, it’s six.
Your citing of the AAA stats is interesting, but ignoring their major league performance as if it doesn’t exist is ludicrous.
Player 3 stands out to me, and I’ve always favored Pearce over Jones. But back to Walker – I find it kinda hard to believe that Walker is capable of matching LaRoches’s .705 OPS based on his minor league performance so far. I’d say it’s more likely that he’s go about 220/260/340 or something like that.
The fact that Neil thinks he could OPS .700 in the bigs right now is fine, I guess, but management is right to insist on more AAA performance from Walker before promoting him.
Oh come on!
Snell didn’t want to be on the team, Bixler was beyond terrible, Gorzo never got in shape and recovered his past form — Pearce I don’t argue that point with you, but that seems to be more on JR than NH at this point since JR has an infatuation with GJ.
But VV also got sent down, Salazar is up now as a sign of good faith more than anything it seems — since he was promised the job in the offseason after he was a NRI — Andy is far and away the best option at 3B, and Moss hasn’t seen consistent ABs — or faced off against a lefty — in a while.
In other words, I really don’t see the “definite” bias. And I think you are off-base by saying Neil Walker is close. He’s been at Triple A for years now, and hasn’t put up a dominant season or anything resembling it either.
I said that Walker hasn’t earned a shot…but I did show that MOST of his numbers aren’t far off what has got others promoted. Neil Walker is 23 years old. Everyone is slobbering all over Jones…who is 5 years older.
Garrett Jones in AAA
2005…age 24…at Rochester (IL)… .244/.297/,445 for an OPS of .741 (134 games)
2006…age 25…at Rochester (IL)… .238/.302/.430 for an OPS of .733 (140 games)
2007…age 26…at Rochester (IL)… .280/.334/.473 for an OPS of .807 (107 games)
2008…age 27…at Rochester (IL)… .279/.337/.484 for an OPS of .821 (138 games)
2009…age 28…at Indianapolis (IL)… .307/.348/.502 for an OPS of .850 (72 games)
Neil Walker in AAA
2007…age 21…at Indianapolis (IL)… .203/.261/.250 for an OPS of .511 (19 games, after having an OPS of .854 at Altoona)
2008…age 22…at Indianapolis (IL)… .242/.280/.414 for an OPS of .694 (133 games)
2009…age 23…at Indianapolis (IL)… .247/.297/.462 for an OPS of .759 (73 games)
Walker’s age 22/23 numbers (his first two full AAA seasons) are not far off those of Jones at the same level at ages 24/25 (HIS first two full AAA seasons).
OK
By comparing the stats that you provided, it seems that Walker is due at least 5 more chances to prove something in AAA. It would appear his ceiling is now to be a Garrett Jones.
There is an easy explanation why Jones never got a shot until a 17 year losing team came a calling, his numbers sucked! Just like Walker’s do! Lets see him duplicate Jones’s 2009 stats, I’m willing to bet that is he did, he may also get a look. Who knows, get to the bigs and do what Jones has for a few weeks and he will stay awhile.
If I was in Walker’s shoes, I’d be giving serious thought to “getting on with his life’s work”. A better investment for him may be grabbing the first Gym teacher opening at Pine/Richland.
Where to start . . . .
If you are a position player or a starting pitcher from the previous regime (Pearce, Bixler, Gorzo, Snell, etc.), you screw up…you get sent down.
Tracy didn’t like Pearce. He preferred to play Jason Michaels. Scouts don’t like Pearce, either. Fact is, most baseball lifers just don’t think he can hit at the ML level, yet he’s getting the best opportunity he’s likely to get right now, at the expense of the more-promising NH acquisition Clement. Bixler got an extended chance in 2008, sucked to high heaven, went back to AAA and didn’t do much there, then got yet another chance in 2009. Somehow he managed to strike out in 72 fucking percent of his ABs. See if you can find a showing that bad by anybody else. He then went back to AAA yet again, now at age 26, and continued to suck until a few weeks ago. Gorzo had an ERA last year of 6.66, yet still got 21 starts. Can you find anybody else that they’ve tolerated through such staggering suckitude? Snell asked to go down.
You are from the current regime and struggle (RV, Andy, Moss, Salazero, VV)…at worst…you get benched (unless you get replaced by another from the current regime). And sometimes you don’t even get benched.
RV hasn’t done that badly. He’s a very patient hitter with an excellent OBP of .365. His OPS+ is only 83 due to his extreme lack of power, but that’s a product of the way OPS underrates OBP. I guess they should go with Bixler and his scintillating lifetime ML OPS+ of 21. Salazar has had a whopping 21 ABs. He’s on the team because they don’t want an actual prospect sitting around like that. He’ll be removed from the roster after the season. Virgil got seven starts, pitched almost, but not quite, as badly as Gorzo last year, and got sent down. I guess he should have been replaced by a DL draftee like Dan Moskos. Or Derek Hankins maybe.
I don’t doubt that Walker sees what kind of numbers that LaRoche is putting up…and thinks he’s capable of that.
Neither do I, because based on his whining, he’s utterly delusional. His AAA OPS isn’t all that much higher than LaRoche’s major league OPS, and his sub-.300 OBP is a good indication he isn’t likely to post anything close to his AAA OPS in the majors. The truth is, Walker has never done all that much in the minors. LaRoche at least has had great success there. LaRoche earned a shot at the majors, Walker never has.
Player 1…296 plate appearances…22 2B, 2 3B, 11 HR, 52 RBI, 127 Total bases, 21 BB, 48 K.
Player 2…295 plate appearances…18 2B, 0 3B, 12 HR, 49 RBI, 139 TB, 18 BB, 47 K.
Player 3…317 plate appearances…18 2B, 1 3B, 13 HR, 54 RBI, 137 TB, 34 BB, 46 K.
Nice cherry-picking of data. Or were OBP and slugging not available? Oh, wait, here they are:
Walker: .297 OBP, .462 slg
Pearce (a DL draftee anyway): .373 OBP, .502 slg
Jones: .348 OBP, .502 slg.
Not much similarity there, except between the last two.
And to take one from below:
Jones is God’s gift to the Pirates lineup in some eyes…for the next several years…just because of 2 hot weeks.
Actually, Dejan reported today or yesterday that management does not appear to regard Jones as a long-term solution. He’s just a guy who, unlike Walker, earned a shot.
Wilbur...
did we miss the 2nd post I made about 17 minutes before yours that listed all the slash stats at AAA for Walker and Jones?? Funny…the hit a week I mentioned that Walker wasn’t getting that Jones was…would put their numbers pretty damn close if added in. Which WAS part of my point. As was the point that Walker is putting up first 2 years AAA numbers similar to what Jones did…at 2 years younger in age.
My point was NOT that Walker should be up…I don’t believe he should be. And said so immediately…in BOTH posts. And I never claimed that the Pirates eyes were the ones putting Jones in the lineup for the next few years. But if you see a lot of people’s comments here…they think he should be.
My main point was that emotions and a hot week or two are the only things that differentiate between someone who many (including some on this board) think is the starting first baseman for the next year or two (Jones)…and others that have just as much (or as little) history of success in the minors (Pearce). And that a single…solitary…single each week…makes a big difference in numbers (Walker).
Sorry if between my two posts last night those points weren’t made clear enough.
This is all a very complicated way of saying that Jones was having a good year in AAA and Walker is not, nor did he have one last year. That one hit a week or whatever has been used by people in MLB to decide who merits promotion and who doesn’t since there was MLB. The standards being applied to Walker are the same standards that get applied to everybody else, which is the real issue here. He has no business whining about it. If Neil wants to channel Crash Davis, he should try screenwriting instead of baseball.
just one
minor quibble to your rant, wilbur. you know good and well that pearce isn’t being given playing time at the expense of Clement. He came up to play 1B before Clement became a Pirate, and Clement went to AAA because he needed to learn to be an everyday 1B in the field. And, much like with Jones coming up, if Pearce is hitting, both will stay where they are.
Did you mean to say
that Pearce has had just as much (or as little) success in the majors as Walker? Because Pearce’s minor league record is light years ahead of Neil’s.
Pearce – .879 minor league OPS
Walker – .745 minor league OPS
Nope...
Pearce and Jones are almost identical in the minors THIS season. What is actually close is Walker’s first 2 AAA seasons compared to Jones’ first 2 AAA seasons…when Jones was 2 years older for both those seasons.
BTW…just for giggles…last 10 games for each.
Jones .263/.364/.526 for an OPS of .890…2 HR, 3 RBI. 6 BB, 10 K.
Pearce .259/.394/.593 for an OPS of .987…2 HR, 6 RBI 6 BB and 6 K…and that’s being a PH in 3 games. He’s had 2 games since his recall where he hasn’t reached base and one of those was a PH appearance.
You make it sound like a small difference
You know what the difference Is between hitting .250 and hitting .300? 1 got it figured out. Twenty-five hits a year in 500 at bats is 50 points. Okay? There’s 6 months in a season, that’s about 25 weeks—you get one extra flare a week—just one—a gork, a ground ball with eyes, a dying quail—just one more dying quail a week and you’re in Yankee Stadium!
— Crash Davis
Finally...
someone gets it. Opportunity…vs luck…vs skill. It’s all in the timing…most of the time…with Garrett Jones a perfect example of a well timed hot streak. I…apparently like the Pirates management…am not convinced that Jones is a long term solution.
Please…someone show me where I said that Walker should be in the majors. You aren’t going to find that statement. What you will find me saying is that his low batting average is the only thing separating his numbers from Jones and Pearce…as most of the OTHER numbers are in the neighborhood. Even their strikeout rates in the minors are pretty close. Add a hit every other week…say 12 hits over a season…BA goes up 25 points…and OBA and SLG go up at least 25 points…and that’s if they are all singles. All of a sudden…you go from a .755 OPS to over .800.
I seriously doubt that Neil Walker will ever make a significant number of appearances at 3B for the Pirates. And his talk with Dunlap isn’t going to do him any favors within the organization. If the Pirates are so sure that he is not valuable…then I would expect him to get his release after the season. And if the Pirates are convinced that Pearce is not valuable…they should do the same with him.
And…somebody…please…please…please…show me where Jeff Clement has put up earthshaking numbers in the minors to deserve a spot that he has never played defensively. For a catcher…he’d be putting up decent numbers. For a first baseman…his numbers are…Steven Pearce (v2.0).
I dunno
I don’t think Walker’s Triple A numbers are even in the ballpark of Pearce’s or Clement’s, even with the average factored in. Clement’s shortened 2008 year was ridiculous, and his 2007 campaign was quite good as well. Pearce will always have that epic 2007 season on his side, and he bounced back pretty well this year in 2009 in the minors before being recalled.
Clement had a better year than Pearce when they both had their first full year at Triple A — plus you factor in the 2 years of age difference and the contrast looks more impressive. Walker doesn’t have anything like that on his side (even if with the age) in terms of a truly dominant season. And even if you throw on 50 points to the batting average, he’s still about 40 points back of Clement in the on-base department at Triple A.
I guess that I should be clear
that I’m not putting Walker and Clement in the same category. Nor would I put Walker TODAY with Pearce TODAY or Jones TODAY. I WOULD put Walker’s first 2 years at AAA vs Jones first 2 years at AAA…even though Walker was 2 years younger at both levels.
Clement (8/21/83) and Pearce (4/13/83) are 4 months apart in age…not 2 years. If you drop 2008 out of the equation for both of them…BIG advantage Pearce…on the whole. With 2008 in…they are fairly close…although considering park factors PCL vs IL…I’d have to give the nod to Pearce.
I was saying
Their ages when they were both in Triple A for the first full year, sorry if that was unclear.
well
guess what, genius:
if you’re comparing Walker TODAY with Pearce TODAY and Jones TODAY, then using any stats other than stats from TODAY is stupid and pointless and irrelevant to your argument.
He specifically said
that he wasn’t comparing today’s Pearce, Walker, and Jones.
WTF are you talking about geeves?
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 12, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I still can't entirely figure out...
…what Thunder’s talking about, much less the people responding to him.
Ummm... I was disagreeing with you and your premise
One hit a week, whether it’s a flare, gapper or bomb, is what separates good hitters from bad. Major leaguers from minor leaguers. 10 days ago you couldn’t have even used your cherry-picked chart because then Walker’s numbers were much more abysmal. He wasn’t close to Jones or Pearce to having a viable OBP. Not. Close. At all. And now that he’s had a good stretch of 10 games or so… he’s still 52 points behind Jones in OBP.
Jones didn’t earn his chance with a well-timed hot streak. He earned it with a solid AAA season, and the foresight to sign with a team that was nearly-certain to trade their starting 1B.
And Pearce had VERY similar numbers to Jones at Indy…but didn’t have a red hot 1st 10 days with the Pirates.
1st 10 days
Which proves . . . what, exactly? According to Dejan’s comments the other day, the Pirates are being realistic about Jones. For now, they’re riding out his hot streak. Meanwhile, DL-draftee Pearce is getting close to a full-time chance at the expense of NH-pickup Moss.
This whole thing started with Neil Walker’s ludicrous claim that DL draftees are being discriminated against. Now it’s morphed into a meandering discussion of the relative merits of two guys who are both too old to have more than very modest upside and who are both getting what probably will be, and definitely shoud be, relatively brief chances to show that they’re major league players. Where’s the beef?
Brilliant!
I hope your very well written post finally drives a nail into the Neil Walker is a real prospect crowd. Not to mention your post may scare Momma Bixler into letting her son move back in next year.
He still has prospect status
I say trade him while we can still get value for him, kind of a buying move to keep the less informed fans interested
Carlos Guillen, the Latino Nick Punto - BouJouma
Please takeyour latte circle jerk to another thread. -WU
babies are young and under team control for at least 12 years -Billyok
i heard kenny williams' mother bought a lottery ticket and lost so kenny williams traded his mother - Billyok
I doubt you’d get anything for him, but even if you could, fans would just claim Nutting dumped a first rounder because he didn’t want to bring him up, have him do well, and have to pay him in a few years.
by CptnAwesome on Aug 11, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
If Frank is bored and wants to spend a little money...
JJ Hardy just got sent to AAA…and Bill Hall was DFA’d. Sure that the Brewers would like someone to take that cash off their hands. Must be white flag time in Milwaukee…as they now have an unemployed pitching coach as well.
Hall…probably not worth looking at. Hardy…has been struggling with the bat…but as always…has been above average on defense…but at $4.65M this season. If he stays in AAA for a week or two and then gets picked up…he won’t be FA eligible until the end of 2011.
off topic, but we claimed a pitcher on waivers
Pirates claimed John Meloan from Tampa Bay.
This per MLB Trade Rumors.
Good day.
Meloan's struggled this year...
…but he’s got some promise, and is a nice snag IMO. Back in his Dodger days, he had mid-90s gas and a good slider, which is really all you need to be a setup guy.
His numbers look great...
through AA. Looks like AAA hasn’t been quite as easy for him…even after departing the pitchers paradise known as Las Vegas. Numbers didn’t drop significantly moving to the IL (4.88 ERA and 1.569 WHIP in 72 innings with Buffalo, Columbus and Durham in 2008-09).
Maybe Kerrigan can fix him?
Per Dejan, Bucs also signed another Australian teenager, RHP Jarryd Sullivan. Is Vlad recommending all these guys?
You can never have too many.
Sullivan apparently pitched for Australia in the 2008 World Junior Championship, so he seems like he might be an actual prospect.
Also off topic
But Tabata’s not in the lineup again today, is he injured?
wow
i officially hate neil walker. what a loser. hes making excuses for a lousy “career” that hasnt even started. the guy is officially a bust and shouldnt even be talked about.
fee fie foh fum. i think i smell the scent of a placenta.
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