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Around SBN: Jeff Sullivan's MLB Trade Deadline Primer

Reds Avoid Sweep With 4-1 Victory Over Pirates

The Bucs' five-game winning streak ended today as the Pirates went back to doing what they do best--making struggling pitchers look good. Homer Bailey entered today's game with a 7.53 ERA but lopped nearly three quarters of a run off it by allowing only one run in seven innings, despite four walks.

When I look at the lineup the Pirates trotted out today, with Brandon Moss in right, Ramon Vazquez at third and Brian Bixler at shortstop, I can't help but feel like they deserved what they got. Even though Bixler hit a nice gap double, it offends my sensibilities to see him starting, and I feel like I've taken a particularly nauseating time machine ride back to 2007. Neal Huntington and company have already gotten rid of the entire back end of the horrible 40-man roster they inherited, except for Bixler, who's now almost 27, still has little control over the strike zone, and has done nothing to show he deserves continued opportunities in the majors, despite what Neil Walker thinks. Ronny Cedeno is out with a hairline fracture in his finger, true, but he should only be gone for a few more days. Until he returns, Andy LaRoche probably shouldn't get any days off. 

*    *    *

Somewhat relatedly, there have been some interesting arguments here in the past couple of weeks about Walker's other favorite person--himself. In fact, it seems like nearly every thread here recently turns into a discussion about Garrett Jones, Nyjer Morgan or Walker, and I guess I'm not really helping by stirring the pot here.

Anyway, one of those arguments goes that because LaRoche has posted only a .714 OPS this year, Walker should get a shot to show whether he can do better.

Surely LaRoche shouldn't be satisfied with a .714 OPS, but it doesn't follow that Walker deserves a chance. Class AAA stats correlate very meaningfully with major-league stats once they're adjusted, so I plugged Walker's numbers so far this year, including his 0-for-5 today, into Minor League Splits' Minor League Equivalency Calculator. The results?

330 AB, 71 hits, 24 2B, 2 3B, 9 HR, 19 BB, .215 AVG /.259 OBP /.380 SLG

This basically means that if Walker had played in Pittsburgh this year, he likely would have been one of the absolute worst players in the majors. Even accounting for some improvement over the course of the season, what Walker has done this year does not warrant even a September callup, let alone the third base job. Minor league stats matter, and Walker hasn't gotten it done this year. Three good weeks does not change that. Chances at the major league level are not, and should not be, given out at random.

One might argue that Walker should get a chance because we should see what he can do, now that we've seen what LaRoche can do. That's not a very good argument, because it begins from the false premise that Class AAA stats, when used properly, aren't predictive of major league stats. Walker has already shown what he'd do with major league playing time, and it isn't pretty. 

Also, though, consider that major league playing time is also development time. LaRoche's .714 OPS this year contains a .336 OBP, which is pretty good. Walker, meanwhile, has posted a .336 or better OBP at only two minor league stops in his entire career, and this year he's struggling to top .300. 

The problem, right now, is that LaRoche lacks power, and Walker lacks on-base ability. (Combine LaRoche's on-base ability with Walker's power and you'd have a pretty good player.) Unfortunately for Walker, good OBP ability can sometimes provide a foundation for power to develop, but the opposite isn't true. Guys who have good OBP as young players--think of Nate McLouth here, or Jim Edmonds, or Brian Giles, or Kevin Youkilis--often develop more power as they age. Guys who have good power but lack OBP skills usually just stagnate--think of Brad Eldred, for example. 

This isn't to say it's all peaches and cream for LaRoche, or that he'll necessarily develop more power. A .336 OBP isn't really that high, and his .256 average this year is also cause for concern. And I'm certainly not saying he'll be as good as Edmonds or Giles in their primes, or Youkilis now. But I do think that in addition to being a much better player than Walker right now, LaRoche also has much more upside despite being two years older. There's a much better chance that he turns his base of skills into something more as he gets a little stronger. Walker is a hacker now, and while anything's possible, the chances are good that he'll always be one. He might have a burst or two of success in the major league level, but my guess is that pitchers will figure him out quickly and those bursts, if they ever happen, will be short. Then there's also the fact that a .700 OPS with a decent OBP is actually better than a .700 OPS loaded with power. Given the choice, you take the player who gets on base.

So, to sum up, there is no good reason to think that Walker could do better than LaRoche right now. Walker is also unlikely to be the better player over the course of their careers. And LaRoche has done enough this year to warrant more opportunities. A third baseman with a .714 OPS, a decent OBP and a good glove can become a very good player if he adds some power.

So let's please stop greeting every hit Neil Walker gets at Indianapolis with speculation about him replacing LaRoche. Neither of them deserve it. And while I'm at it, let's not accuse people who point out Walker's flaws of rooting for him to fail. That's just silly. He just isn't a very good player. I hope that changes, but I doubt it will.

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Neil Walker is the poor man’s Jeff Francoeur.

by maguro on Aug 23, 2009 7:47 PM EDT reply actions  

that about sums it up. if your a poor mans jeff francoeur things arent looking too good for you.

by PensRock1 on Aug 23, 2009 8:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh boy!

Buckle in and get ready for about 200 posts. Nice post Charlie. I like the calculator. Just for the hell of it I ran Garrett Jones AAA numbers through it and they translate to: .262 .297.414 9 HR 38 RBI, OPS of .711. That sucks we need to send Jones back down now before he hurts the team anymore!!! Seriously though I agree with everyting you said about Walker and Laroche. Walker staying in AAA, were he belongs, has nothing to do with being blocked by Laroche (or anyone). I find that notion of Walker being blocked kind of humorous.

by Slick1 on Aug 23, 2009 8:57 PM EDT reply actions  

I had a good laugh plugging Pujols numbers from this year in and seeing how he would have done in the minors.

by Schide on Aug 23, 2009 9:17 PM EDT reply actions  

If you really want to have fun, adjust Pujols’ numbers for the California League and High Desert’s park. Using his current numbers extrapolated to 162 games in that park, I got this line:

.535/.689/1.2763 with 55 doubles, 2 triples, 94 homers, and 267 RBIs

http://www.whygavs.com
http://mlb.fanhouse.com

by whygavs on Aug 24, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

And if you really want to have fun, plug in Luis Cruz’s 2009 AAA numbers!

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 24, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh

I did the exact same thing.

And then I did it with Brandon Moss just to bring myself back to my sad place.

by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Aug 24, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bixler and Cruz have to be the two worst players in the Majors now. Just atrocious.

There’s no point even mentioning Walker as a prospect until he gets into the .340-.350 OBP range, at the absolute minimum, with Indianapolis. Until then, it’s best to pretend he doesn’t exist.

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 23, 2009 10:04 PM EDT reply actions  

I was curious, so I entered Andy’s AAA numbers into the ol’ calculator. He never played a full season there*, so I combined stints from 2006-2008 into one nice, fat 590AB sample:

.242/.327/.408 with 28 2B and 24 HR.

The OPS is reasonably close, but boy, that HR number sure sticks out like a sore thumb, doesn’t it?

  • Only 265 AB in 2007, so I presume an injury there.

by JRoth95 on Aug 23, 2009 10:42 PM EDT reply actions  

By the way

I sincerely hope Charlie’s not lumping me into the “replace LaRoche with Walker” camp. I posted an update on his recent good hitting because I was curious to see what it was adding up to. I speculated that, in the best case, he could push Andy in Spring Training, but that there was no way he could, would, or should go north with the team.

That’s about it. I’d love to see him succeed, because that means one more good player in the organization. I don’t dispute Charlie’s analysis, but I’m less utterly certain that he can’t improve.

by JRoth95 on Aug 23, 2009 10:46 PM EDT reply actions  

shenanigans

“LaRoche’s .714 OPS this year contains a .336 OBP, which is pretty good.”

no, a .336 OBP is not pretty good… among the 23 qualified leaders that yahoo lists as third basemen, laroche ranks 18th… evan longoria, whose 11th ranked OBP represents the median of the group, is at .362… laroche is 26 points below the middle of the pack… I’m not sure how ‘pretty good’ is being used here, but it certainly doesn’t apply when comparing laroche to his peers…

(and FWIW, his OPS ranks 22nd of those 23)

by Captain Easychord on Aug 23, 2009 11:54 PM EDT reply actions  

The league average OBP in the N.L. is .331. In the A.L., it’s .336. LaRoche’s .336 is “pretty good” and “isn’t really that high” almost by definition. But accuse me of whatever “shenanigans” you like.

by Charlie on Aug 23, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I did later describe it as "good," which may be a bit of a stretch, but not much of one. I suppose it’s the difference between “good” and “decent.” Seriously, though, why would you assume I’m playing games or being dishonest?

by Charlie on Aug 24, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, that's a good question

Not whether Charlie’s playing games, but whether average* = “good.” After all, an average MLer is significantly better than a replacement player; does that make him “good”?. At first glance it seems like a team full of exactly average players should finish at .500, but I wonder if that’s really true. I suppose it depends on how carefully you make each player average – do you have 5 league-average starters or an average #1 starter, an average #2 starter, etc.?

Arguably, the Pirates have been something of a test of this question over the past 17 years. Have they been bad because all but their best players have been merely average, or because they’ve always had dogs in the starting 9?

  • I do think that Captain Easychord is right that the relevant metric for LaRoche is his OBP compared with other 3Bs, not against all other players, just as it was always silly when people would complain about Jack’s offense when he was a middle-of-the-pack SS by OPS. Charlie’s point stands that Andy’s OBP is at least tolerable, whereas Walker’s would not be.

by JRoth95 on Aug 24, 2009 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Laroche's OBP

I agree with Charlie’s overall point, but .336 is not good. His walk rate may be good considering how low his BA is in relation to his OBP, but let’s not call a .336 OBP something it’s not… namely, “good”. It’s barely even tolerable. I don’t know if I can even go that far.

by ILLZ on Aug 24, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not so sure...

“I do think that Captain Easychord is right that the relevant metric for LaRoche is his OBP compared with other 3Bs, not against all other players,…”

Not when you are evaluating OBP alone. You’re trying to determine whether or not .336 is a good OBP so it must be compared against the league. If Charlie were simply analayizing Laroche’s value as a 3B than EasyCord’s argument becomes relevant. In my opinion I think people overemphaisize how certain positions are supposed to perform relative to the league. If we have a power hitting SS, 2B, C and CF that it would matter much less if our corners didn’t. Obviously that’s not our problem but it really doesn’t matter where on your team production is coming from as long as it’s coming. In the context, again, Laroche should be compared to the league. Right now his OBP is league average. Average is not good, It’s mediocre, middle of the bell curve. If everyone perormed at league average we would be a .500 team. Again, that’s not good. Replacmenet level is bad, average is mediocre, above average is good.

by Slick1 on Aug 24, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

His position is relevant.....

in terms of how he is valued. Now in terms of the team’s makeup you certainly can have guys who don’t profile like the “normal” position player in the league. But, in terms of valuing him properly you definitely have to look at him versus his peers. It doesn’t really make sense to compare Doumit to center fielders or Cutch to catchers, if for no other reason than his trade value is related to the position he plays.

I didn’t confirm Captain Easychord’s stats but if he’s 22nd out of 23 qualifiers in OPS at third base that isn’t good or average, that is bad. That means there are probably at least 22 teams on which he wouldn’t be the starting third baseman. And he isn’t going to start for anyone at any other position at this point so that is what we should look at.

His numbers are bad. It doesn’t mean that they aren’t going to get better, but there isn’t any definition that I know of where a 3rd baseman OPSing .714 and having an OPS+ of 92 is good or average. It is, by definition, below or well below average.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

LaRoche/Moss/Morgan

Andy has now had 821 career plate appearances. His career OPS is .646. His career OPS+ is 73. He is in his age 25 season.

Brandon Moss has had 609 career plate appearances. His career OPS is .699. His career OPS+ is 85. He is in his age 25 season.

Nyjer Morgan has now had 821 career plate appearances. (You may notice that is exactly the same number as LaRoche, and all have been between 2007-2009 for both of them—with most coming this year.) His career OPS is .757. His career OPS+ is 102. He is in his age 28 season.

All are deemed good defensive players, but Morgan definitely grades out as good as any in the league using UZR/150.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

"That means there are probably at least 22 teams on which he wouldn’t be the starting third baseman."

No, it doesn’t. It means that there are 22 teams on which he wouldn’t be the starting third baseman IF you ignore defensive contributions.

That’s a big if.

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay his UZR/150...

which you told me is the stat you like to use is 1.3. Career it’s 1.5. Not exactly Brooks Robinson yet.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, but...

…some of those players ranked ahead of him on OPS/OPS+ are brutal gloves, -10 to -20 (if not worse). Even if LaRoche is only an average glove, he’s still adding a lot of value compared to those players, and it’s value that your thumbnail analysis is ignoring.

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only two guys on .....

the FanGraphs list profile UZR/150 between -10 and -20 and they are Chipper Jones and Mike Lowell.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=3b&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2009&month=0

Also Crede, Beltre, Mora and Rolen aren’t on the Yahoo list (which I didn’t create, btw, Yahoo did). LaRoche isn’t starting for any of those teams.

Let me ask you a question how many teams in ML baseball do you think Andy LaRoche would be the starting third baseman this season assuming the regular guy isn’t out for the year, etc.?

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depends how you define the question.

He’s probably 30th to 40th percentile right now on talent. Toward the lower end of that range if you only care about this year’s performance and money is no object, toward the upper end if he gets credit for being minimum salary and pre-arb, or if you want a multi-year solution (since he’s likely still pre-peak).

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I only mentioned the data thing...

…because it seemed odd, and I wanted to make sure you didn’t use a Yahoo list for any serious kind of research (if that’s representative of the sort quality, anyway).

I mean, Escobar hasn’t played even one game at 3B this year. It’s not weird that he’d show up in a list of 3B?

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

And do me a favor....

I said probably. Go look at the list. Here is the link:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byposition?pos=3B&conference=MLB&year=season_2009&qualified=1&sort=25

How many of those guys is he going to start ahead of? And that isn’t including the eight teams that don’t have a qualifier.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Teahen is a good example...

…of the kind of guy I’m talking about. In a typical season, he’s a little over a .750 OPS. He’s also a terrible glove at 3B, right around a -10/150 at the position for his career.

Jorge Cantu is another. Career .776 OPS, .771 OPS this year, so he’s ahead of LaRoche on offense. But he’s a dreadful glove – at all positions, not just 3B. His career UZR at 3B is about -15/150, and his reputation is even worse.

[Incidentally, you may want to take a closer look at your sample, there. Cantu only has 15 games at 3B this year, for example, having spent most of his season as a 1B. I’m not sure why he’s showing up on your 3B list. He’s not the only one, either – Adam Kennedy and Yunel Escobar both jumped out at me as guys who’ve spent the majority of the season at a different position, and I don’t know that they’re the only ones.]

If you use a metric that includes defense, such as WAR, you get a better picture of things. There, LaRoche comes in 22nd out of 83 players, but part of a big cluser of guys between 16 and 27 that are within half a win of each other (in order, in case you’re curious: Crede, Kouzmanoff, Peralta, DeRosa, Aramis Ramirez, Feliz, Beltre, Beckham, Kennedy, Roberts, and McGehee are the others). If you restrict it to qualifiers, he’s 19th. Which is perfectly fine for a pre-peak hitter in his first season as an everyday player.

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, pick seven teams.....

that he would be the starting third baseman. Florida, Houston, SD, Balt, Toronto, KC are all probably debateable. I couldn’t come up with any others.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, let's see.

I bet you’d get at least a look from all of the six that you mentioned, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see interest from the Phillies, Brewers, Cards or A’s, either.

There are also teams for whom moving the current 3B starter to another position and making LaRoche the regular 3B might also make sense, such as Cleveland and Atlanta.

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough....

but some of those teams also have guys coming through the system, like Gamel with Milwaukee, that they wouldn’t trade straight up for LaRoche, so I still think the list is about 5-6 teams long.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gamel might be their 3B of the future.

I don’t know whether he’ll be able to stick at 3B in the long term, but there’s always a chance, I guess.

Might be easier to hide him there with Escobar covering for him a bit.

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

WAR is a counting stat, not a rate stat

you can’t just use that blindly in comparison without some adjustments, right? Not sure why OPS/OPS+ and UZR/150 don’t tell a very clear picture.

His value does lie in his contract, but only for next year since arbitration comes in 2011. If he’s good he starts getting expensive. If he isn’t he isn’t playing so it won’t matter.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

WAR is OK to use if you're comparing starters...

…since PT differences will be fairly minimal. Not ideal, but since this is just a quick look, why not?

You could use OPS (or an OPS derivative) and a fielding metric like UZR if you wanted. I figured WAR would be an easy proxy, rather than taking the time to add a bunch of figures by hand, but the latter would be a little more accurate. Depends how much time you feel like spending.

if you want to use UZR, be careful about the size of your sample. That’s why I was using multi-year totals when I singled out Teahen and Cantu – makes it easier to tell the skill from the random fluctuations. (That said, I think Lowell’s dramatic dropoff this year might be for real – his joints are in bad shape.)

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well I thought WAR was bad because.....

in the group you listed Beltre, Ramirez and Crede among others have missed a lot of time with injuries, McGehee has only started 52 games, Roberts has only started 44 games, Kennedy missed the first 27 games of the season, Beckham came up after 52 games etc. And that’s 7 of the 11 guys you mentioned.

Yes, it’s useful when comparing starters but the list you gave wasn’t really a fair comparison when LaRoche has started 112 games.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, that's the kind of thing that happens with shorthand.

Occasionally, guys drop through the holes.

If you want to dig into it, I think it’s legitimate to clip Beltre and Crede in that fashion, since both have chronic and continuing health issues that should be part of their baseline expectation at this point. Ramirez has been fairly healthy outside of this year, and should probably get a pass.

The other guys you single out aren’t really everyday 3B in the common sense of the word. Roberts is more of a super-utility guy who plays a little 3B on the side – the plurality of his GP thus far have been at 2B, and his team already has their starting 3B on the list in Reynolds – so he could probably be bumped entirely. Kennedy is likewise a 2B by inclination, who’s been playing a little 3B for Oakland out of necessity with Eric Chavez hurt. Beckham was a 2B/SS who slotted in at third after Fields blew up, and McGehee was a 2B/3B who slotted in at third after Hall blew up and got traded.

With the group from the last graf, it kind of depends what you’re trying to analyze. Have they outperformed LaRoche on a rate basis over part of a season as starters? Yes. Are they likely to continue to do so if left in that role? Maybe Beckham, but the other three will probably regress at least somewhat, as they’re all outperforming their expectations. Are any of them settled as starting 3B for next year? Not really, no. Roberts will go back to UT, McGehee will have to fight off Gamel, Kennedy is a free agent, and Beckham could just as easily end up starting at 2B if they cut bait on Getz.

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just an observation

Doesn’t it seem odd that it’s so hard to pin down who the 30 starting 3Bs are in baseball?

I mean, OK, certainly not 30 – you’ll never have every team in stasis at a given position over a year. But the original list mentioned was 23 guys, which seems about right.

If you asked dedicated fans of all 30 teams “Who’s your starting 3B this year?” you’d very quickly get answers (including “nobody” or "it was X but now it’s Y). But, without that simple method, things get complicated fast.

Odd, isn’t it?

by JRoth95 on Aug 25, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree...

we weren’t looking at value, we were looking at his OBP in isolation. If we were looking at value; OBP would be one of several indicators used to compare him to his peers. You can tweek statistics any way you want. If I graduate with a 3.00 that is a solid B (for argument sake). If the rest of my class averaged a 3.30 then my GPA is below average for my class. But when it is time for an employer to hire they aren’t comparing my GPA to my class but rather the general population. In most cases a 3.0 would still be considered above average.

I mean this is really semanticas anyway. It could easily stated that Andy’s OBP is below average for a 3B and average for a major leaguer. End of story.

by Slick1 on Aug 24, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right....

I didn’t mention OBP. I was talking about value and looking at his OPS.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's interesting

So having a real hitter in the lineup vs. a pitcher/pinch hitter is worth only .005 OBP? I would have thought the disparity would be greater than that, what with the DH and a 1-9 lineup etc.

Just sayin’.

by bucdaddy on Aug 24, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's probably

an evaluation of everday players. The NL number probably doesn’t consider pitchers for their OBP averages, but I would think the AL would include the DH

by glass094101 on Aug 24, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty unfair

As Charlie points out he never talks about LaRoche as the second coming of Wade Boggs or anything, just that Walker isn’t the answer:

So, to sum up, there is no good reason to think that Walker could do better than LaRoche right now. Walker is also unlikely to be the better player over the course of their careers. And LaRoche has done enough this year to warrant more opportunities

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on Aug 24, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

LaRoche.....

hasn’t done enough this year to warrant more opportunities in my opinion, it’s just that we don’t have a better alternative.

I like him, but when you are 22nd out of 23 in OPS at your position and your OPS+ is 92 you haven’t done anything good or earned more playing time with your performance this year in my view. If he gets it, it will be because of his minor league history and his potetial. He has looked much better defensively as the year progressed but his UZR/150 is only 1.3.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

His improved defense and this being, for all intents and purposes, his rookie season makes me think that he deserves more opportunities.

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on Aug 24, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

For a player in his first full season, .336 is pretty good. You hope it doesn’t continue to be .336 over his career, obviously, but it’s not bad for someone who is for all intents and purposes a rookie, even if they don’t fit MLB’s qualifications as such. When said career player had a career .382 OBP in the minors, there’s reason to believe we’ll see improvement.

Even OBP wunderkind Brad Hawpe had a .322 in his first short stint and .350 in his first full season.

Some of the very best players in terms of OBP put up .350-plus in their first season. Ichiro, Dunn, Youkilis…but these are the outliers. The cream of the OBP crop. .336 is much closer to what usually happens.

If LaRoche starts to hit for even 10-15 HR power, he’ll be an average player with the bat. Above average if he posts higher OBPs (again, no reason to believe he won’t yet.) His glove would make him an above-average player at third. Ryan Zimmerman, Chipper Jones or A-Rod he ain’t, but above average is still above average.

www.sixtyftsixin.com

by Nate Rose on Aug 24, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Garrett Jones story may be worth noting here.

A year or two ago, Twins blogs had almost this identical post while talking about Garrett Jones.

His .258/.312/.450 minor league career, adjusted for major league competition, had no long-term potential for the next level, and people who thought differently were just being homers.

With Jones batting .306/.348/.502 this season, the “correct” explanation was his numbers being inflated by an unsustainable (for him, a .258 career guy) batting average. Just a guy having a lucky season, which happens to everybody at some point.

Walker’s current .259/.308/.475 is not all that different from Garrett’s minor career of .258/.312/.450.

The reality is that those calculators aren’t very useful. It is entirely correct to say that players, on average, see their offensive production reduced by X% when going from such and such a team in the minors to such and such a team in the majors.

But players, in general, aren’t average players. Many of them see their offense drop by much more than X% on promotion, and to counteract the effect these Bixlers have on the average, there must be players who see far less of a drop in production, or even an increase on promotion.

Now, a better calculator probably could have told us that a left-handed power hitter like Garrett Jones would handle a promotion to PNC park much better than an average player, with a number of his popouts turning into HRs etc. But it’s never going to account for everything, and anyway, Walker’s a switch-hitting power guy.

Walker would probably be pretty bad at the major league level. But he hasn’t “shown us” that; what he’s shown us is that the bell curve (wave function) for his possible major league offensive outputs has a lower midpoint/peak than what a good prospect would have. But you can’t collapse the wave function without actually trying him out at the major league level. And the best time to do that would be in an August/September of a lost season.

by ItsPedro on Aug 24, 2009 9:40 AM EDT reply actions  

You seem to be assuming...

…that Jones’s performance this year is demonstrating a flaw in the MLE calculator, rather than an aberrant performance by Jones. That’s a dangerous assumption for a guy with less than 200 AB.

Also, per Jones’s hit tracker record, he isn’t just dropping popups into the short RF seats. As such, a component adjustment of the type you suggest wouldn’t have added any real value to his projection.

There are always going to be outliers. That’s the nature of a bell-shaped curve.

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

sort of unrelated but

that hit tracker is shorting jones a hr. he’s got 14, not 13. they’ve missed the walkoff he hit in extra innings on 7/17 against the giants. it must be an anti-jones conspiracy!

but yeah. not a lot of of cheap ones in there.

by johnnycuff on Aug 24, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think there's any "flaw" in the calculator.

It answers the questions it answers correctly.

But the question it answers is “how, on average, will these statistics translate to the major league?”

it is not “what will this players numbers be playing in the majors?”

If 100 players had that stat line and went to the majors, they’d probably have 100 different seasons. The calculator, assumptively, tells us what the average of those seasons is, but it would be helpful if it would give a standard deviation as well. There’s an 80% chance that Neil Walker wouldn’t be between the 40th and 60th percentile of those players.

by ItsPedro on Aug 24, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

SD would be a nice addition.

It’s a pretty standard feature on projections these days (like ZiPS and PECOTA), and it’d be a useful reminder that these are educated approximations, not gospel.

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good luck...ItsPedro...

I tried the Walker/Jones comp about a week ago and got laughed at.

Just to give a very simple example of the similarities…2nd full season at AAA (IL in both cases)…
Walker…age 23… so far… .255/.303/.468
Jones…age 25… .238/.302/.430

But…I’m done trying to convince people of anything when it comes to who may or may not deserve a chance.

by Thunder on Aug 24, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, any low-OBP slugger could technically do what Jones is doing. It’s just that 99% of the time, they don’t. Also, Jones improved his OBP to a mediocre level in 2008-09, so we’ll have to see if Walker does the same at some point.

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 24, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can see how people would poo-poo on Jones based on the 200-PA argument.

So I’ll go back to the Twins organization again.

Denard Span was a top pick for the Twins about 7 years ago, and slowly went up through the organization. After a while in AAA, he started going off to the media about how he was ready for the majors and what was management thinking leaving him down there etc.

Blogging community ripped on him, along the general lines of “hey Denard, as a slap-hitting corner outfielder your .700 OPS translates to poop on a stick in the majors. try being productive at AAA and get back to us.”

Sound at all familiar?

Span was soon promoted anyway, and after 200 games has put up an OPS around .800, a far cry above his projection. Not much power, but as a leadoff hitter whose OBP jumped .035 above his minor league career on promotion to the majors with excellent baserunning and great defense, Span has been the Twins’ 3rd best position player over the past two seasons.

So what happened?

Two factors might have helped. First, maybe the turf at the metrodome helped a share of his grounders find their way out of the infield; I wouldn’t be surprised if the Dome was grounder-friendly. Second, maybe frustrated and unhappy players don’t always play to their potential.

Or maybe something else.

I’m not necessarily in favor of a Walker promotion; he’s been improving steadily at AAA, and offhand I’d hazard it might make more sense to take a chance/shake things up for a player who is stagnating. Also, I’m confident we’ll be out of it next August as well.

But I could also see the argument that if Walker is starting to believe that the organization isn’t going to give him a chance anyway, he might feel there’s no reason to give 100%. In that case, a September promotion, even if Walker is disastrous, might help him refocus on getting better.

by ItsPedro on Aug 25, 2009 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

So if the Pirates don’t think Walker is giving 100% (which is entirely speculation), then they should reward that with a promotion?

Span improved his plate discipline even before getting the call-up in 2008. Let’s see Walker do the same.

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 25, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to Span...

…he started seeing the ball much better after LASIK surgery. Before that, he’d unknowingly been trying to hit with 20/40 vision in his lead eye. Link.

It could also have been the result of a thousand other things, of course. I just figured Span’s take was worth sharing.

by Vlad on Aug 25, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Blogging community ripped on him, along the general lines of "hey Denard, as a slap-hitting corner outfielder your .700 OPS translates to poop on a stick in the majors. try being productive at AAA and get back to us."

Sound at all familiar?

However, that’s exactly what happened – he started hitting in the minors, to the tune of 340/434/481 which got him a quick call-up.

In Jones’s case, there wasn’t a big improvement in the minors. Given differences in park and scoring, he hit pretty much like he did last year. The latter never improved in the minors and his recent minor league history is inconsistent with his MLB performance. Span’s was, but he did start hitting in the minors, which more strongly suggested a change in ability.

--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com

by D.Szymborski on Aug 25, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like Span, Walker _has_ started hitting

Not saying that 4 weeks of good hitting equals a call-up, but we are seeing dramatically better production from Walker, and if he keeps it up 2 more weeks, his season numbers will be completely respectable and a big jump over last year, his first in AAA.

Point being, Walker’s pattern is exactly the one you’d want to see – improvement over time at a level, and at a young(ish) age.

by JRoth95 on Aug 25, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still don’t understand why people think Walker is deserving of a call-up.

I’ve read every single little fanpost or comment on here about Walker and I just don’t get it.

The guy has yet to hit Minor League pitching. If that is the case, then why should he be given a shot to face Major League pitching.

It’s like if we had a pitching prospect…say Danny Moskos next year. He’ll start out in AAA, I’m assuming. His numbers at AA, despite a decent ERA, are not impressive. If he goes to AAA next year and has a .5.45 ERA and walks more people than he strikes out, will people say he needs a promotion because he still hasn’t shown that he can’t get big league hitters out? No…because people, for the most part, hate Moskos because he represents something that we would all like to forget AND he wouldn’t be deserving of it and that those numbers alone show he can’t get big league hitters out.

Walker seems to be a fan favorite for some reason. Maybe because he’s a local kid, I don’t know. But the same thing applies for Walker. If he can’t hit AAA pitching, he’s not going to hit ML pitching.

by northsidenotch on Aug 24, 2009 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

I don’t have a strong opinion on a September callup – I don’t think he’d get many starts, and I think it’s not worth his while to be on the bench – but he played a short season this year, and has been hitting well for 4 weeks, so I’d like to see him play more baseball between now and February. That’s all.

The only concrete* upside I see to bringing him up is getting him 4 weeks with Perry Hill. Reports are that his glove is already quite good, but Perry has the Midas touch, so a month around him can only improve Walker.

  • As opposed to factors like fan interest or giving him a boost

by JRoth95 on Aug 25, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Without getting technical, Walker has had the same chances that other Pirate players have had to advance through the system. Management has stayed with him during tough times. He has worked himself into a “produce now, or find your life’s work” position. His late minor accomplishments have been overshadowed by his murmuring. He has cast even more doubt about his value to the organization at the ML level. Walkers story can serve as a lesson to other youngsters as to how not to go about your profession. Pedro awaits!

by hermitage hero on Aug 24, 2009 11:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Forget Fan Favorites!

In the end, we can expound on fan favorites all we want but Neal makes the decision devoid of any input from us. I’ve grown inured to those potential phenoms for the Pirates because a plethora of them have petered out. Chad Hermansen, Brad Eldred, JJ Davis to just name a few. My hopes for them came from a fan’s perspective and not the empirical data. I got tired of trying to be Nostra-fucking-damus peering into a crystal baseball and seeing total offensive devastion from these bats. Bats,as it turned out, that should have only been used as kindling wood in order to get any fire out of them. So, from here on in I am going to rely on the sabremetricians and not magicians to forecast who has the best chance of being a productive MLB player.

by tjc on Aug 24, 2009 3:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Hey Guys

Pardon my stupidity, but what is OPS+?

by God Loves on Aug 24, 2009 4:59 PM EDT reply actions  

OPS+

OPS+ :

OPS measured against the league average, and adjusted for ballpark factors. An OPS+ over 100 is better than average, less than 100 is below average.

by dtoddwin on Aug 24, 2009 5:04 PM EDT reply actions  

OPS+ listings are at Baseball-reference.com

Your one-stop shop for baseball numbers.

Please keep in mind that it’s OPS scaled to a league average batter, not broken out by position. So a SS with a 100 OPS+ is an above-average bat for his position, while a 1B with a 105 OPS+ is not.

It also under-weights OBP slightly, but that’s really only an issue for guys with extreme OBP/SLG ratios (like post-thumb Kendall, or Brad Eldred).

by Vlad on Aug 24, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

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