Bucs Dugout: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
New Blog: Along The Olentangy for Ohio State Fans!

Maybe Troy Buckley Wasn't So Bad

On the Pirates: Best and worst amid the losing
The Post-Gazette on departed minor league pitching coordinator Troy Buckley:

Buckley's my-way-or-else style won him few friends in the system, and the Pirates, indeed, lost a few experienced baseball men in favor of pitching coaches who essentially were clipboard holders for Buckley, not permitted to offer individual instruction.

His results were decidedly mixed: Brad Lincoln had a breakout year, as did Rudy Owens in Class A, but that was about it. Daniel McCutchen and Danny Moskos showed improvement, as did others. But Morris was the key piece of the Jason Bay trade, Locke part of the Nate McLouth trade, and each took steps backward in several months under Buckley.

The idea that Buckley made waves and made people angry is hardly new, and it may be true that a softer approach would have worked better; I simply wouldn't know.

But I'm suspicious of some of the overwhelmingly negative appraisals of Buckley I've heard, since any number of people would have reason to hate his take-no-prisoners style whether it got results or not. And I think it's very premature to say that results under Buckley were below average. The simple fact is that he inherited very little talent. It's true that Bryan Morris has been a bust so far, but Morris' problems with injuries and attitude have clearly hurt him, and those things probably have little to do with any pitching instruction he received.

Meanwhile, the Post-Gazette's idea that Locke went "backward" under Buckley is just wrong. Look at the numbers--with the Pirates, Locke has lopped an entire run off his ERA at the same level with the Braves this year, and he has dramatically improved his control as well. And as the Post-Gazette points out, Lincoln and Owens took steps forward this year, and Daniel McCutchen proved he was ready for big-league action.

In addition, Justin Wilson, the top pitcher from the Pirates' 2008 draft class, has improved dramatically over the course of his first pro season, Ronald Uviedo has held up well in a transition to starting, and not one of the minor league pitchers acquired in this year's string of trades (Tim Alderson, Brett Lorin, Nathan Adcock, Aaron Pribanic, Hunter Strickland, Casey Erickson, Michael Dubee, Eric Hacker) has pitched worse than what should've been expected based on their performance records before they arrived. Not one. (I suppose you could argue that Lorin has been worse on account of his low strikeout rate, but it's hard to argue with a 1.93 ERA.) The early returns on 2009 draftees like Trent Stevenson, Brooks Pounders and Victor Black have been promising, too.

This all strikes me as a very good development record, because it's not like Buckley had much to work with. The group of pitching prospects Buckley inherited was horrible (Was Duke Welker ever going to become a real prospect after Buckley arrived? How about Matt Peterson, or Bryan Bullington?), and pitching prospects don't have high success rates in the best of circumstances. The performances of the Pirates' minor league pitchers since Buckley arrived before the 2008 season actually have been excellent relative to the talent that's been in the system. The performance of an entire organization's worth of pitching prospects will always be "mixed," because pitching prospects are extremely volatile, but I think that if we're going to look at the overall results for clues at to Buckley's performance, it's very hard to conclude that he did badly.

Now, maybe Buckley is a Grade-A twerp who can't tie his own shoes, and maybe he doesn't deserve credit for any of these positive developments since his arrival. As I said, I'm not close to the situation and therefore can't really say. But I do think there's plenty of cause for skepticism about the idea that he got subpar results, and I think that if he had gotten the same results without being such a hell-raiser, the appraisals of him now might be quite different.

 

PBC Blog: Daniel McCutchen Coming
Dan McCutchen will not be joining the U.S. World Cup team in Europe, as was previously reported. Instead, he'll join the big-league team and start in one of the games tomorrow against Cincinnati. He's earned a chance, so this is great news.

0 recs  |  Comment 23 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Around SB Nation

minor lines 8/25/10

Aug 2010 from McCovey Chronicles - 70 comments

minor lines, 8/15/10

Aug 2010 from McCovey Chronicles - 38 comments

minor lines, 8/5/10

Aug 2010 from McCovey Chronicles - 79 comments

minor lines, 7/21/10

Jul 2010 from McCovey Chronicles - 79 comments

Comments

Display:

Mighty

convenient to fluff off Morris and Locke. I have no idea if he was a great pitiching coach or not, but your implication of something sinister is, dare i say, ridiculous.

by Hitman Easler on Aug 30, 2009 4:41 PM EDT reply actions  

What are you talking about? I haven’t implied anything sinister. And there have plainly been issues with Morris not related to pitching instruction, and the P-G plainly mischaracterized what has happened with Locke.

by Charlie on Aug 30, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hitman....

I think you need to reread the article. I think you might have misinterpreted Charlie’s point.

by dtoddwin on Aug 30, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s fun to look at comments on that 2008 top 20 list where they were ripping on McCutchen. He is compared to Nook Logan, Carlos Gomez, Jacoby Ellsbury, Felix Pie. That’s why the minor league numbers don’t tell the whole story for the youngest players, especially related to potential (and power potential in particular).

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 30, 2009 5:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I emailed Dejan right after that stuff on Buckley appeared. I made a lot of the same points you did, especially about Locke (he’s allowed exactly one run in five of his last six starts). I also pointed out that the pitching coaches they hired last winter—Dean Treanor and Wally Whitehurst—have impressive resumes and can hardly be called clipboard holders. Dejan acknowledged I had a point.

by WTM on Aug 30, 2009 5:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Hm. Good to know. The discourse about Buckley had me feeling like I had missed some essential piece of information, but if you came to the same conclusion, that probably isn’t the case.

by Charlie on Aug 30, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

The conclusion I came to was that Dejan has heard some griping from people who worked for DL and from some of the pitchers who didn’t like the pitch counts and other restrictions. Reminds me of the line from Nathan Arizona, in Raising Arizona, when asked whether he had disgruntled employees: “Hell, they’re all disgruntled. I ain’t runnin’ a damn daisy farm!” Where Dejan’s reasoning fell down was when he tried to connect Buckley’s actions to bad results. The results in fact have been very good this year. As long as that’s the case, why care who’s disgruntled?

by WTM on Aug 30, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd assume...

that Dejan will probably…at some point…re-evaluate Buckley’s performance and do a story about it…or at least a clarification. Usually…if he gets something wrong…he goes back and gets the facts correct.

by Thunder on Aug 30, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I suspect that Dejan’s impression of Locke was heavily influenced by his first 4 disastrous starts (12.1 IP, 12 ER, 6 BB, 6 K). No excuse for that, but you could see where it came from. Heck, even before his last 2 starts his ERA remained above 5.25.

But the pattern you’ve seen is actually the one you want – brief struggle with transition to new system, then excellent performance under the new system.

by JRoth95 on Aug 30, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Dejan's impression of Locke...

…was heavily influenced by him not liking the idea of McLouth having been traded.

by Vlad on Aug 31, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

The same goes for Hernandez

by dirtyfrank on Aug 31, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Huh?

I don’t recall DK saying anything bad about Hernandez, who has had an OK season but certainly not one to justify his preseason ranking (which, IIRC, said he was a better CF prospect than Cutch). Links?

by JRoth95 on Aug 31, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dk....

seemed to realize in Hernandez’s struggles in the early going after the trade. Pointing out everyday that he’s now 0 for his last whatever, when he started slowly.

by dtoddwin on Aug 31, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some of it is simply looking at the ERA and, if it’s over 4.00, writing the pitcher off as a failure. I’m pretty sure Dejan did this at some point with Quinton Miller, who’s actually had a pretty encouraging year, imo.

by WTM on Aug 31, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bixler back down to Indy...

and he’ll be joined there by Jorge Julio who was just signed (via DK on Twitter and MLBTradeRumors.com).

by Slick1 on Aug 30, 2009 5:42 PM EDT reply actions  

what exactly is it that a minor league pitching coordinator does anyway? I mean, he’s obviously more removed from any players than a pitching coach, but does he set the policy for developing young pitchers? If so, to what extent is this policy dictated from above… or at least preferred by someone higher on the org chart? and if it’s all just working with how NH wants to develop these guys, to what extent will his replacement adopt a similar development outlook?

from what I understood, buckley’s big things were the strict pitch counts and having guys rely less on breaking balls and more on the fastball/changeup combo… but if his replacement comes with the same philosophies (and, perhaps, more people skills?), will troy buckley himself be all that relevant?

by Captain Easychord on Aug 30, 2009 6:15 PM EDT reply actions  

My sense

Very much from the outside, is that Buckley was following the company line, but A. probably has bad people skills and B. I suspect pushed the limits of power he was delegated (who ever heard of a MiL pitching coordinator suspending coaches?). NH clearly backed him once it happened, but my personal guess is that NH would not have approved in advance (better to beg forgiveness than ask permission…).

That said, it’s a sign of this organization’s situation that this story is either in the P-G or making front page posts here. It almost certainly doesn’t matter long term.

by JRoth95 on Aug 30, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess my questions are...

Where does the responsibility and/or credit lay when evaluating the minor league pitching talent? Is it with the Coordinator and his theories/system?? Or is it with the direct coaching from the minor league pitching coaches?? Does the coordinator actually have much hands on interaction with the pitchers?? And who makes the decision on who to hire when it comes to pitching coaches?? Is it the coordinator, or is it the GM?

by Thunder on Aug 30, 2009 11:01 PM EDT reply actions  

I expect the word “coordinator” is there for a reason. Somebody has to monitor things very closely in spring training, for instance (although for some reason Jeff Andrews seemed to do a lot of that when he was the pitching coach for Altoona). The pitching coaches for individual teams can’t really start to work with their staffs until the season starts, which is when assignments are made. Somebody has to make decisions like what to do about Rudy Owens’ workload. If he’s going to be cut back, who picks up the extra innings? There also should, imo, be some overall philosophy in a number of areas, like pitch counts, long-tossing programs and throwing certain pitches. (Some organizations, for instance, don’t want minor league pitchers throwing splitters.) And somebody has to monitor the pitchers at Pirate City. I’m sure every org., at any given time, has a bunch of pitchers rehabbing.

I know Buckley also traveled a lot around the system to get hands-on work with the pitchers. I don’t know how common that is.

by WTM on Aug 31, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pitcher Injuries

Another factor I’m surprised didn’t come up in DK’s article or in this forum is the pitcher health factor. Seems most of Buckley’s policies were related to restricting pitchers from blowing out their arms. When judging Buckley’s tenure, it would be hard to argue he didn’t improve things from a health regard during his tenure.

by bigchich on Aug 31, 2009 9:39 PM EDT reply actions  

If Buckley were some kind of ogre...

…then it seems unlikely that the Dirtbags would be happy to have him back. They’re all doing Snoopy’s happy dance over there.

by Vlad on Sep 1, 2009 10:02 AM EDT reply actions  

True

Being able to go back to a job like that says a lot about a guy.

by maguro on Sep 1, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Pittsburgh Pirates.
Start posting about the Pirates »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Carnac-ing the Pirates
Small
Fire John Russell
Small
Can the Pirates Afford to Win?
Small
I Am Not A Financial Journalist, But...
Small
The Bottom

Recent FanPosts

Small
Solution at first base?
Aaugh_small
Just to give you an idea
Conquer_the_flag_small
2011: Altoona and Indy
Mendenhall_small
Community Prospect #8
Small
Perception v. reality
Small
Cutch or Tabata?
Small
The 1b/RF 2011 Mix
Pitt_gnome_small
What JR's missing
Small
Minor League Open Thread
4th_id_patch_small
What's up with Nyjer??

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS

SBNation.com Recent Stories

Colorado Rockies' Carlos Gonzalez, left, and Ubaldo Jimenez, right, celebrate in the dugout after Gonzalez hits his second home run of the game in the sixth inning of a baseball game against the San Francisco Giants at Coors Field in Denver on Wednesday, Aug. 4, 2010. The Rockies won 6-1. (AP Photo/Chris Schneider)

Five Numbers: Carlos Gonzalez's Home Dominance, Baseball's Wave Of Flamethrowers, And More

WASHINGTON - AUGUST 26:  Albert Pujols #5 of the St. Louis Cardinals hits a home run in the fourth inning against the Washington Nationals at Nationals Park on August 26 2010 in Washington DC. It was the 400th home run of his career. (Photo by Greg Fiume/Getty Images) link

In Progress: Cardinals Aim To End Skid Vs. Rival Reds

Washington Nationals' Nyjer Morgan, center, is led off the field after a brawl during the sixth inning of a baseball game against the Florida Marlins, Wednesday, Sept. 1, 2010, in Miami. (AP Photo/Wilfredo Lee) +8 updates

Nyjer Morgan Suspended Eight Games For Recent Infractions, Including Role In Brawl

More from SBNation.com >


Managers

Charlie_small Charlie