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Why we shouldn't have traded Gorzelanny.


This post had nothing to do with the players we got in return but rather that we sold low on a valuable asset.  A team in our position cannot dump assets and what makes this trade even more puzzing is that there was no reason for it.  We had plenty of time to let Gorzo regain some value before we dealt him.  Given his 2007 success, even if he failed, some other team was likely to take a flier on him and we would have received a return not much different from what we got.  I think Gorzelanny would have regained some value had he been given the chance instead of wasting innings on the worthless Virgil Vasquez.  Let's take a look at Gorzo's career numbers to see what I'm talking about.

 

Star-divide

Season

Team

ERA

IP

K/9

BB/9

K/BB

HR/9

WHIP

BABIP

FIP

2005

Pirates

12

6

4.5

4.5

1

1.5

2.17

0.393

5.69

2006

Pirates (AAA)

2.35

99.2

8.49

2.44

3.48

0.36

0.94

0.252

2.71

Bottom of Form

2006

Pirates

3.79

61.2

5.84

4.52

1.29

0.44

1.31

0.26

4.18

2007

Pirates

3.88

201.2

6.02

3.03

1.99

0.8

1.4

0.311

4.24

2008

Pirates (AAA)

2.06

35

8.49

1.03

8.25

0.26

0.91

0.291

2.11

2008

Pirates

6.66

105.1

5.72

5.98

0.96

1.71

1.8

0.303

6.35

2009

Pirates (AAA)

2.48

87

8.79

3.1

2.83

0.31

1.18

0.304

2.87

2009

Pirates

5.19

8.2

7.27

4.15

1.75

0

1.15

0.256

2.83

 

 

In 2006, Gorzo had a 3.79 ERA in the majors with 5.84 K/9 and 4.52 BB/9 in 61.2 innings.  His BABIP was .260 so it was obvious that he was pretty lucky but you will see numbers like that in a small sample size.  In 2007 however, he had a 3.88 ERA (along with 14 wins) in over 200 IP.  He also averaged 6.02 K/9 while averaging 3.03 BB/9.  The walk rate was still pretty high but he was successful nonetheless.  He had an FIP of 4.24 but he also had a BABIP of .311 which indicates his ERA was probably right where it should have been.  Now we all know that his 2008 season in the majors was disastrous with his ERA and BB/9 skyrocketing while his K/9 declined.  His ERA pretty much equaled his FIP but his BABIP was .303 which was still a little high.  Regardless, he stunk in 2008.  Now you all take notice, and everyone probably remembers anyway, that he worked over 200 IP in 2007 while working a total of 160 in 2006.  That is quite a jump and probably explains the decrease in velocity more than the coming into camp out of shape.  He was sent to AAA at the end of 2008 where he had success but his “stuff” was still not the same.

 

In 2009, however, Gorzo did not make the team out of camp because he needed to work on "consistently repeating his delivery."  Well, his numbers in AAA showed that he had figured something out because over 87 innings he had an ERA of 2.48 while averaging 8.79 K/9 and  3.1 BB/9 (about the same as 2007).  He also had an FIP of 2.87 and a BABIP of .304 which is still a little high suggesting that his ERA could have been even better with some better defense and luck, albeit just a little bit.  As reported by DK on the PG blog, he had also regained his velocity which helped him be so successful as a 25 year old in 2007.  He was brought to the majors as a reliever for a stint where he had an ERA of 5.19 in 8.2 IP.  ERA’s for relivievers, especially in extremely low sample sizes, can be deceiving but from his short time in the Burg it was obvious to me that he was throwing better than 08.  While a 5.19 ERA is not good anywhere he had a FIP of 2.83 which was over 2 runs better than his ERA which suggest he was hurt by some bad defense.  He also had a 1.75 K/BB ratio witch was pretty close to the 1.99 K/BB ratio he had in 2007.  Additonally he had a 1.15 WHIP in Pittsburgh and a 1.18 WHIP in Indy which is a heck of a lot better than the 1.80 WHIP he had in 2008.

It can be argued that Gorzo  would or would not have regained his form.  The point I'm trying to make is that given his performance in AAA this year coupled with his regained velocity, there was absolutely no reason not to give him a another chance.  I would have felt much better had we sold high on Duke or Maholm.

 All of this being said, was Gorzo a lock to repeat his 2007 performance?  Absolutely not.  But was it possible? Absolutely!  The numbers suggest that this wasn’t a guy we should have been giving up on.  They also suggest that he would have been better in 2009 than he was in 2008.  If there was an attitude problem or a conflict of personalities and it was predetermined that Gorzo was out the door, than I say he should have been starting instead of Vasquez in order to increase his trade value.  At the end of the day, we sold LOW on Gorzo and that was a big misktake. 

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

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The Bucs aren’t in the position to trade young starting pitching unless we are wowed by the return. Compared to position players, there is very little in the farm system and not much in young, plus starters in the Majors except for maybe Morton. I’m fine with the Snell deal because I like Jeff Clement’s bat. He’d be in the Show if we didn’t have to give Pearce a real shot and the Garrett Jones business.

It’s hard for me to see where Kevin Hart, roughly the same age as Gorzo and zero success in the Majors, offers more upside than the starter he was traded for. Ascaino is more of a bullpen arm for us, IMO. Harrison isn’t much of a prospect.

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 5, 2009 12:28 AM EDT reply actions  

Ben Balder

take it for what its worth, but ben balder from BA had this tweet from Ascaino’s start the other night..

“Saw new #Pirates RHP Jose Ascanio tonight. FB 88-96, but regularly touching 95-96. At worst he’s a power-armed mid reliever.”

24 years old…sounds like at least equal to the upside Gorzo had, and 3 years younger..

by jsn4219 on Aug 5, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

I saw Ascanio in person on Saturday; he was very, very good. Much better than I expected.

http://www.whygavs.com
http://mlb.fanhouse.com

by whygavs on Aug 5, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

His 2008 (AAA) stats are crazy. Not too shabby this year, either.

It’s a bit concerning that he couldn’t at least have moderate success in either of those years in the bigs, but oh well.

We sold low, absolutely. But, there’s not a whole lot to do now except wait and see. The FO must have seen something with his mechanics that they were ready to take a chance on the guys they got. Otherwise, they simply made a poor decision.

by Yotum on Aug 5, 2009 1:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Classic Example

of a rapid second guess…

Let him pitch a little in the majors. If you can write this same article in a month then it may carry a little more weight.

by God Loves on Aug 5, 2009 7:52 AM EDT reply actions  

I had the same reaction the night of the trade.

I understand your point I would just much rather had him pitching a little in the majors for us before sending him off.

by Slick1 on Aug 5, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

He did pitch in the majors a little for us.

4 walks in 8.2 innings, with a 5.19 ERA.

Evidently, they weren’t impressed.

by Vlad on Aug 6, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think you're generally right with this, we shouldn't have traded him.

But now it seems like he’s a lock to get his 42 days in this year and he’ll go to arbitration afterward. He depreciated a bit when he stepped on the mound last night, inching toward arbitration.

Of course, we would have kept him down until September and gotten another full year out of him.

by hisjazziness on Aug 5, 2009 8:30 AM EDT reply actions  

There's a difference between selling low...

…and getting out while the getting’s good. If we were confident that he’d never recover his 2007 form, then flipping him now would allow us to get a greater return than we would’ve if he’d been brought up and gotten knocked around, VV-style.

by Vlad on Aug 5, 2009 10:12 AM EDT reply actions  

equally, i m worried Hart has been bought rather high, I said this at the time of the trade too, and while Hart has looked good at the ML level, his starts could turn out to be like Karstens early impressions- remember when he had 15 scoreless to start?

I am essentially willing to wait and see if Hart or Ascanio can match Gorzo and if they can, I m fine with it. Besides, I also maintain that I think Gorzo got flipped because there was some kind of issue with management, perhaps more under wraps than Snell’s. As has been pointed out before, this trade was the head-scratcher, since it wasnt something we needed to do, and the only thing we gained perhaps is service time. If Hart can give sub-4 ERAs over an extended period of time, it ll be a good trade, but it seems to me that it can only go worse.

by BurgherKing on Aug 5, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

“I am essentially willing to wait and see if Hart or Ascanio can match Gorzo …”

Like we’ve got a choice?

;-)

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Aug 5, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

well, we do

we could toss them back for, say, bumgardner :P

by BurgherKing on Aug 5, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that they liked Hart...

…more on physical projection and stuff than on his ML work this year. Obviously, his 2009 peripherals don’t support his ML ERA.

by Vlad on Aug 5, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

hart

i really think next year he is in the bullpen. his arm plays up better there. Because i think brad lincoln will take over the 5th spot in the rotation in ’10.

by jsn4219 on Aug 5, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree in that I think that is what NH...

believed he was doing. It all comes down to the AAA numbers and I already know your position on this. I just happened to think that they will translate better at the ML level given that his stuff appeared to be sharper when he threw out of the pen. That coupled with reports of regained velo leads to believe he would have been more successful and deserved another shot.

by Slick1 on Aug 5, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kinda Agree

Part of me wants to truly think that the FO all agreed that he would never regain his lost form or withstand 200 innings. I really hope that we did indeed “sell high” and his Minor League numbers this year are unsustainable.

The cynical part of me thinks it may have been a conspiracy to avaoid arbitration. On the surface it does certainly seem that he should have had VV’s place in the rotation for at least the last month. Of course, saving arbitration time makes little sense for a guy that will be traded.

There just doesn’t seem to be a clear motive for keeping him in the Minors. Perhaps, the coaching staff felt that his preformance in the Bigs would only tarnish his precieved value. Certainly, with the pending trade of Grabow at the time, Gorzo might have figured to swing into the lefty pen job.

So, it’s either money (saving arbitration), his arm/delivery is seriously flawed, or perhaps a pretty good return in exchange that drove this trade. Should be an excellant barometer of the scouting department. I really think we need to wait until July of next season before canning a few scouts.

by GeneClines on Aug 5, 2009 10:55 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't think...

there is any conspiracy. It simply talent evaluation. Our front office doesn’t think Gorzo can return to form and they really like Hart and Ascanio. I think that’s about as far as it goes.

by Slick1 on Aug 5, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Woops...

that was meant for GeneClines.

by Slick1 on Aug 5, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

This reminds me of the Oliver Perez throw-in a few years ago. Not that I’d particularly want him now, but he was a valuable commodity (as evidenced by the massive contract he got this winter), and we got pretty much nothing for him. Gorzo isn’t nearly as talented as Ollie, but if turns out to be even a passable back-end starter, he’s worth more than a throw-in on a trade.

by fatmink on Aug 5, 2009 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

We ended up with

Ohlendorf, Karstens, Tabata and Daniel McCuthen plus two decent years of Nady as a result of that deal. I wouldn’t call that nothing and would a lot rather have that package than Ollie right now.

by WestCoastBuc on Aug 5, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

We received that package...

because NH did the exact opposite of what he did here, which was sell high on Nady.

by Slick1 on Aug 5, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't understand how you could possible know

that NH sold low on Gorzo unless you mean relative to what he was worth after the 2007 season and that ship sailed a long time ago.

by WestCoastBuc on Aug 5, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes that it what im talking about.

I think if given the chance he would have pitched close to his 2007 numbers given his work at Indy and improved velo. Do I know that he would have pitched better? No, just like I didn’t know that Nady wouldn’t hit 30 plus HRs 4 the yankees this year. But we traded him while he was performing better than his career numbers and that is selling high. Lookn at gorzo’s numbers he had only one bad season and we traded him after that season. We didn’t give him the opportunity 2 see if his num ers would fall back in line with career avgs. This is why I think we sold low.

by Slick1 on Aug 5, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Couldn't coach Gorzo

Last night Gorzo was pitching with his delivery coming over the top of his shoulder (instead of a 3/4 sidearm), giving him the extra speed on his fastball; he was pitching using his fastball more than his breaking stuff; and he was allowed to use the plate instead of staying outside. It’s a matter of a decent coaching staff working with him in Indy and Chicago to bring him to the level he’s capable of achieving.

by Indianapolis on Aug 5, 2009 12:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t think he was ever told to pitch outside. In fact Kerrigan had that dummy during Spring Training forcing the pitchers to pitch inside. So I highly doubt Kerrigan said NOT to use the whole plate and most pitchers do use the whole plate.

The problem with gorzo was command and delivery mechanics. They couldn’t keep his arm slot in the right place for each and every delivery. Which makes command control a problem. Maybe he found that in the minors after a while of work or perhaps the Cubs saw a flaw that they felt they could correct.

by lfhlaw on Aug 5, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Living in Iowa....

The headline in the local newspaper while sitting in the break room “Gorzy has Grand Debut”. It made me feel like some of my lunch would come back up. But, I’d like to see him do all this against the Milwaukee Brewers or St. Louis Cardinals. If he does, he’ll just be the third player to do better after trading him away in the last decade, joining Aramis and Schmidt..

by IAPiratesFan on Aug 5, 2009 12:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Another (out in left field) theory

just wondering about this- I heard this somewhere last year maybe during the ASG, and was wondering if it could be a strategy NH is thinking of.

So we have these guys- Maholm, Duke, Morton, Alderson, Ohlendorf, Hart, Ascaino, Karstens, Lincoln (not counting Dumatrait yet). 9 pitchers potentially reaching/being in the bigs at the same time, and capable of starting. 5 starting slots, 1 normal long relief pitcher, as the usual combo plus the usual bullpen only guys.

I wonder if NH might be thinking of building into a scenario where we have maybe 5 SP plus 3 of the other guys in the bullpen, and we could be seeing games that go with say a SP who has a rough outing, goes 4 and is replaced by another who goes 4 more or all 5. I understand this used to happen sometime back and i wonder if NH wants to get into a situation where he can do this, if necessary, to have a solid guy backing up so even if we get blown for say 4 runs in the 4th inning, we have a guy coming in, who we feel can give us 5 scoreless, and hope the batters can pull it back, instead of having to go through the whole bullpen and not being able to hold it in.

Perhaps, the fact that Gorzo could get us both Hart and Ascaino played a role, since NH felt he had a decent set of options for the starting 5 anyway, to the extent that it didnt particularly matter if Gorzo could be a starter, since he felt quite certain he could have 5 as good as or better than him.

by BurgherKing on Aug 5, 2009 1:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t think this would work, because pitchers need their arms stretched out – I don’t think you could have 3 guys in the bullpen pitching 1-2 innings on a regular basis yet also available to go 4.

Now, it is conceivable that they have some idea about having 3-4 relievers who can all go 2+, instead of a bunch of 1 inning guys and LOOGYs. It certainly simplifies your bullpen if even a 6 inning start means only 2 relievers.

That said, I think it’s far more likely that NH is simply stockpiling with an eye towards flipping to fill holes or maybe land a real talent (certainly 2 decent-not-great starters plus an OF can get you a pretty solid AA prospect, esp. for a contending team facing injuries)

by JRoth95 on Aug 6, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gorzo is a hot-head who had one good start against a depleted Reds lineup. I think too many people are going crazy over this trade too soon.

by phil79 on Aug 5, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

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