Is Andy Laroche better than Jason Bay?

by Slick1 on Aug 5, 2009 7:04 PM EDT

I was browsing MLBTradeRumors when I came across a post linked to FanGraphs. FanGraphs values Andy Laroche more than Jason Bay ($7.2 million to $5.5 million). I'm guessing that Bay's defense really hurts him here. Bay, while putting up an OPS of .872, had a UZR/150 of -15.8. He has a WAR of 1.2. Andy, on the other hand, has an OPS of .707 but has a UZR/150 of 4.8. His WAR is 1.6.

I'm not taking sides on whether or not the Bay trade was a good one or not but it is interesting to see that Andy is outperforming Bay by himself...according to FanGraphs anyway.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

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Figuring in that

Bay is in a hitter’s ballpark and playing left field in a place that hides some defensive deficiencies, his numbers should actually be worse. So yes, right now, I would take Andy LaRoche over J. Bay. (but don’t tell the yinzers)

Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock

by Green_Wave on Aug 5, 2009 7:09 PM EDT reply actions

NuHo would go nuts!

Thanks for the link BTW.

by Slick1 on Aug 5, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions

I wouldn’t take LaRoche over Bay straight-up without considering contracts.

But I’ll definitely take LaRoche over Bay when considering the period under contract and the cost.

by mak_DC on Aug 6, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions

As a "yinzer" I agree with you

There are some yinzers with intelligence.. Don’t stereo type

by daburgh73 on Aug 6, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions

there are some yinzers with intelligence

but it’s like me saying all politicians are greedy. Not all of them are but a good number of them are. I don’t mean to offend people but it’s just easier to make a group statement.

Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock

by Green_Wave on Aug 6, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Bay....

has fallen off a cliff the last two months. Vlad or WTM posted his OPS by month and it certainly tells the story. 1.123 Apr, .973 May, .701 June, .683 July.

IIRC he was offered $48mil/4 years by the Red Sox earlier this year. He declined and they broke off negotiations. I think he will be lucky to get $30/3 from anyone now entering his age 31 season and being a poor defender.

by David Todd on Aug 5, 2009 7:10 PM EDT reply actions

unless he comes with a strong stretch drive

and postseason (if they make it)

by BurgherKing on Aug 5, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions

It was WTM.

I suspect (but don’t know) that his knee may be hurting him again.

by Vlad on Aug 6, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions

Let me tell you something brother, Bay/McLouth/Nady was not only the most productive outfield of 2008, it was one of the greatest of all time. All we needed to do was trade that McCutchen dude for a big time starting pitcher, and then sign CC Sabathia and we would have won the World Series.

Whatcha gonna do, when Bay and Nady run Wild on You???

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 5, 2009 11:13 PM EDT reply actions

Running wild for them...

would require walkers with tennis balls on the bottom and maybe anti-slip flooring….

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce

by gorillakilla34 on Aug 5, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

this is

terrific
+1 followed by many zeros

Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock

by Green_Wave on Aug 6, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions

Bay's injured.

In addition to his numbers getting worse as the season progresses, now he’s gonna be out for the first two games of the series against the Yankees.

by IAPiratesFan on Aug 6, 2009 12:56 AM EDT reply actions

Pirates would have had a pretty solid team

had they actually kept some of these players Fans need to clamour for new ownership willing to spend like how Detroit turned their franchise around

take it easy
why care about a bloggers grammar
no matter how much you hate me you still read and comment me

by angryandy on Aug 6, 2009 6:21 AM EDT reply actions

Have you heard

of the PBC blog? They’d love you over there. It’s on the Post-Gazette site.

Happy trails!

by bucdaddy on Aug 6, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions

You are kidding right? We’ve had the discussion here about 1000 times why that team was just as bad as this one

The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.

by glass0941 on Aug 6, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions

This one?

Not to restart the argument, but “this” team – the 25 guys in Pittsburgh right now – are a .330 team, over a 29 game span. The Bay-McLouth-Nady team, even with Morris and Gorzo6.66 stinking up the rotation, was a .450 team.

Other than that, the two are identical.

by JRoth95 on Aug 6, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions

So what?

Do you win some kind of trophy for going 73-89?

by maguro on Aug 6, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Exactly

So they were a .450 team. Big Whoop. I could care less if we have a worse winning percentage. The general point is that they weren’t contending with those guys, so why not get something out of them that could help them compete?

The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.

by glass0941 on Aug 7, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions

Even more importantly, if we had kept the Bay/Nady/McLouth team together in 2009, the Pirates would be worse than the current team. Bay, McLouth, Nady, LaRoche, Doumit have all done worse in 2009 for various reasons (and we’d still be starting Bautista and the backup C is Paulino), and there are still 3 gigantic holes in the starting pitching outside of Duke and Maholm.

A lot of players had career years last season, but the talent in the long view isn’t as good right now or in the future.

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 6, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions

I meant in the last sentence, the talent on the beginning of 08 team isn’t as good as the current squad this year or in the future. Oops.

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 6, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions

In case you hadn't noticed...

Detroit missed the playoffs for the past two years, and ar ein a close enough race that they could miss them again this year. They had a losing record last year.

Yeah, they went to the World Series in 2006…and lost. But then they spent two years rebuilding because they didn’t have a farm system or any money to sign the free agents that left. Is that what you want? One season of relevance followed by sucking? I’ll take a young core that could produce multiple seasons of relevance.

www.sixtyftsixin.com

by Nate Rose on Aug 6, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Mathematically they would be a 75 win team. Still not over .500.

by thecheeseisblue on Aug 6, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions

You mean the Pirates traded Jason Bay ! Damn it i’m finished with this team !

by chodan11 on Aug 6, 2009 10:38 AM EDT reply actions

Bay is also in the worst slump of his career right now offensively. If he didn’t tear it up early in the season, he would look baaaaad right now. Andy actually has a higher average than him now (though Bay is still way ahead of him in OBP. Dude always had a hell of an eye.)

www.sixtyftsixin.com

by Nate Rose on Aug 6, 2009 3:30 PM EDT reply actions

I don’t know about worst slump of his career? was like 2006 even worse when he was with us? Then he recovered in 2007 for us to trade him for something.

by lfhlaw on Aug 17, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Even though he’s in a career slump, I’m taking Jason Bay. The team we field right now needs more offensive power. We’re 35-15 this season(If my calcs are correct) when we score at least 4 runs. Just 4. That’s 20 games over .500. The fact that we’re some 15 games under .500 right now says a lot to me. The pitching staff looks good down the road. I like Maholm’s stuff, Duke’s changed dramatically and I like what I hear from Alderson and Lincoln. The bullpen seems solid to me on paper. The defense is solid outside of Delwyn Young and Jones but really, honestly, who’s going to drive in our runs? We’re resting our entire offense on Andrew McCutchen and the hope that either Jones or Pearce becomes a long term driver. We need a big bat. Bay was and still is a big bat. I wish we still had him.

by stchamp98 on Aug 6, 2009 9:04 PM EDT reply actions

um...

you do realize that Bay isn’t anything but a power hitter now dontcha? Not worth having him

Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock

by Green_Wave on Aug 6, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Disagree.

I still agree with the idea of the Bay trade, but Bay is still a valuable hitter. OBP over .380, big slugging, big homer numbers. Leads the league in walks. Not as valuable in the pure power hitter sense as Adam Dunn, but also not (quite) as bad in the field.

www.sixtyftsixin.com

by Nate Rose on Aug 6, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions

That undersells Bay’s struggles in the field, as he is worse than almost every regular in LF or RF except for Dunn.

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 6, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Dunn

can at least play at first base and not let his defense hurt as much. J Bay will have to DH at some point

Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock

by Green_Wave on Aug 6, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions

And given the fact there is no DH in the NL...

I think everyone would have to say that we did pretty well in the Bay trade.

by Slick1 on Aug 6, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions

You must have missed the part...

in the post where I stated that Bay has a USR/150 of -15.8. Don’t know if that is worse than Dunn but that is bad. The fact that Andy has a better WAR while having an OPS of .707 shows you just how much Bay’s defense is a detriment and his offense does not make up for it.

by Slick1 on Aug 6, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Also, Dunn has hit 40 jimmy-jacks for 5 years in a row, and it will probably be 6. That’s remarkable offensive consistency. Bay is a lot more up-and-down with the bat.

by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 6, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions

It is generally a bad idea...

…to focus on the style of a player’s performance, rather than the value of that performance.

If we had a player who was 15 runs above average thanks to HR, as opposed to 15 runs above average thanks to doubles and triples, it would make absolutely no difference, because runs are runs, regardless of where they come from.

by Vlad on Aug 7, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions

Bay

Bay’s a stud he has been and always will be, Andy is average on defense, Bay is average on defense. I sure would love to have Bay’s numbers over Laroches in a hearbeat. Contracts I would find the money to sign Bay. Lets not forget we dont have any outfield corner that could put up the numbers bay has. People open your eyes and see the light!

by baseballssp3 on Aug 17, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions

Laroche

Is by no means a stud this year, but neither is bay if you consider the overall package. Laroche is by far more valuable to our team on the defensive side, unless he can find his alleged power. And Bay can hit but is awful in the field. So just like the WAR shows, they basically are worth the same to their teams but in different ways. Now combine the two and then you have something to write home about.

by thefutureisnear on Aug 17, 2009 6:04 PM EDT reply actions