Quality vs. Quantity
by wertdogg21 on Aug 6, 2009 7:21 PM EDT
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I'll be honest - I'm already getting pretty tired of this 'quality vs. quantity' argument on ESPN or CNNSI regarding the Pirates' trading strategy. If you make the statement that the Pirates got quantity over quality in their trades over the past 2 years, you would be correct. If you make the criticism that they got quantity over quality, well, frankly, that's foolish. With the exceptions of McLouth and possibly Bay, the Pirates really didn't have much leverage in these trades. They've recently traded the following: 29 yo OF with zero pop and little to no upside; 30-something, (very) impatient, singles-hitting, soon-to-be expensive 2B; 27 yo LHP pitching well in AAA but not expected to regain his form of 2 years ago. I could go on. This is hardly the Marlins trading Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell for Hanley Ramirez, or the Rangers cashing in on Mark Texiera. Not to beat a dead horse over and over again, but they haven't dealt a bonified star since the Bay trade. This fact, coupled with teams' ever-increasing overvaluing of prospects, makes it nearly impossible to snatch superstar-projected prospects.
As a fan, I'd be much more disappointed if I were rooting for the Reds or one of the teams that refused to meet Toronto's asking price for Halladay. The Reds gave away two very young, very hard-throwing guys for an aging 3B. And the plethora of teams that refused to part with prospects to acquire the best pitcher in baseball for 1.5 years is mind-boggling. Holding onto players that are supposed to eventually be great at the expense of acquiring players already dominant at the big league level, though the current trend, is not necessarily the greatest strategy.
I really enjoy reading guys such as Callis and Law, but not everything they write is gospel. I know I tend to discouraged with the team if I read a negative article one of the above guys has written. But in taking the above into consideration, I know now to take these articles with a grain of salt. The Pirates are far, far from digging themselves out of the Littlefield Trench, but I remain cautiously optimistic that these trades and the strategy they resemble will eventually lead them back into contention.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Thank you.
Seriously, thank you. I couldn’t agree more on all counts; especially concerning Law and Callis.
I was shocked when those two overrated our former players so badly, since baseball people take these writers very seriously.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 6, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree as well.
We may not have obtained a “can’t miss” prospect in any of our trades but we had to add depth to a system that had been depleted by the utter negligence of what was Dave Littlefield. Callis and Law, IMO, are missing the big picture when evaluating what NH has done. He has added more depth to every level of the organization and he had done so without trading any hall of famers. According to FanGraphs we traded 25 years of service time for 98 years. Say what you want about the talent received but NH has definitely replenished a system that was starving to death.
Yeah, I’m not really sure how Callis can say that the Pirates farm system will be ranked about the same as they were last offseason. Seems almost impossible really.
Also, Callis really seems to believe that Tabata is older than he says, I’ve seen him say it more than one place. But he’s the only person I’ve seen bring it up, so I have no idea how accurate he may or may not be. Anyone else hear anything like that?
I don't know how he says we won't move from this year to the next in organizational rankings.
even though we only graduated one of our top 10 (although it was Cutch, who was #1 or #2) and if we sign Sano and ZVR…
we would have 5 of our top 10 as players acquired this year, including 2 in the top 5. Those players would be Sano, Sanchez, Alderson, Hernandez, and ZVR.
How would we not move up from 18.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 7, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Callis isn’t the only writer at Baseball America. I imagine some other writers will want to move us up.
Also, FWIW, the Baseball Prospectus people seem to like every move we make. I forget which writer it was, but someone at BP said something along the lines of “even the intelligent Pirates fans don’t seem to realize that Huntington has won every trade he’s made.” I’m going to assume that he forgot about the Torres deal there, but still.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
I would hope so
but my point was how amazed I was at the blatant contradictions in his own writings. It amounts to “the Pirates haven’t added any quality talent, so they won’t move up in my rankings. Now here is their top 10, with half the players being new additions this year and, therefore, since my last rankings. I am a moron.”
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Aug 7, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
A Scribes' Background
I applaud your well written post. To a degree, I can understand your sentiment with the accompanying disappointment based on their negative assessments of the Bucs. If you are a true Pirate fan it’s inevitable and expected. But to put it into perspective, for how many games did these guys lace up big league cleats and how much time did they spend in the ‘Show’ to qualify them as writers with first hand experience? And exactly what does qualify them to write on this subject matter with any authority? Sometimes I think that a bunch of them, not all, are just lost sheep aimlessly following the herd. It’s in vogue to belong to the Buc’s bashing brigade so they blatantly bounce on board that bandwagon with bias and bombast. Certainly not with insightful and skilled writing to stand above and apart from the rest in an attempt at objective journalism.
You certainly don't....
need to play in the “Show” to qualify as a good writer or analyst. Most of the guys who played are way worse than the other people who write and analyze the game.
Not really.
You don’t need to play professional baseball in order to be a good analyst. Remember that blog FireJoeMorgan.com? It was mostly a couple guys who thought Joe Morgan (a Hall of Famer) was a terrible analyst. Also watch MLB Network sometime and try not to get annoyed at everything Mitch Williams says.
by IAPiratesFan on Aug 6, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Bay was a bona-fide star for only 2 years, 2005 and 06.
Bay’s 07 was injury filled and he didn’t even hit well, and since 07 to now his defense has been a significant liability.
Arguably the best player at the time we traded him in the past 2 years is Morgan.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 6, 2009 10:03 PM EDT reply actions
I've been thinking about this too.
They didn’t exactly give up world-beaters, and were trading at a time when teams won’t give up their #1 prospects for Roy freaking Halladay. It would be awesome if we were doing the rebuild thing like 7 years ago when nobody cared about prospects, but we’re not. Considering that, the Pirates have done well to replace the bums on the 40-man with 40 guys with a chance at being someone…and Brian Bixler.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
dtoddwin
To clarify what I lucidly wanted to say but fell short. The only point that I was trying to make regarding the ‘Show’ was I get tired of hearing guys that never played themselves constantly dissing ballplayers and/or teams. I was in no way suggesting former players make better writers, analysts, or broadcasters for that matter. Thanks for pointing that out.
I for one am appalled that we couldn’t get their Wieters and Smoak for our Bay and Nady…
[/NuttingHostage]
by Gorkys n' Beans on Aug 6, 2009 11:57 PM EDT reply actions
I'm on overload
from that stupid blog. I at least got Nutting Hostage to shut up about draft picks with my arguments but then I had some guy try to tell me that trades should be made to improve the major league team and that I was stupid for saying most trades aren’t done that way by losing teams. They make me think less of the human race.
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
I'm considering proposing a bet to NuttingHostage.
Something along the lines of if the Nutting-owned Pirates don’t have a winning record within the next five years, I’ll buy him something off his Amazon wishlist, and vice-versa if they do. I wonder if he’d take it.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
You would probably get that bet
from more than just him
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
I would go
add the new iPhone to your Amazon wishlist…
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
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