As apathy begins to set in...
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Sep 13, 2009 3:09 PM EDT
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More fans shift over to football to find entertainment rather than watch a collection of AAA players go through the motions of finishing another losing season. Maholm stopped pitching. McCutchen stopped hitting. LaRoche stopped fielding and Doumit never started either one, leaving us leaving us wondering why Jaramillo doesn't play more. Hell, even our infield coach wants out refusing all offers so far to return next year while Tracy continues his quest for the playoffs in Colorado. Is it possible Hill sees the writing on the wall and doesn't want his reputation tarnished by this collection of miscreants? After all, our "pitch-to-contact" style of pitching only works if he has the talent that can be molded into successfully fielding ground balls and turning them into outs while anybody who has followed the Cubs knows the fielding problems encountered by Ronny Cedeno.
Other than the Nady trade, the rest (McLouth, Bay, LaRoche, Morgan, Wilson, Sanchez, and Grabow) can be best summarized as Salary Dump 2 painfully reminiscant of the circumstances leading to the exit of Aramis Ramirez and Jason Schmidt (Salary Dump 1). Our we really supposed to believe NH has not completely destroyed the moral of the team by trading fan-favorite McLouth causing everyone terrific insecurity all the way from Doumit to Perry Hill? How can the destruction of team moral possibly be analyzed as anything other than unsuccessful when the only other saving grace (increases in salary) is not an option?
As I said before, trading all our veterans for guys with only "potential" was just one way to rebuild a team and did not have to be viewed as mutually exclusive to all the other options (free agency, veterans, etc.). However, we are now left with virtually no talent to trade, a management team that won't spend money on veterans, and a group of players barely eligible to vote with a cumulative negative VORP. The only possible good news that we can hope for is the signing of Sanos which may not even happen leaving us with a Spring Training roster of guys who most certainly will lose 100 games this year. For the first time in over a decade, I'm left fearful of what is to happen next year since we don't have summer football.
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What?
Maholm stopped pitching.
So he was just half assing his way through 8 shut out innings today? No mention Capps, did he stop pitching?
Is it possible Hill sees the writing on the wall and doesn’t want his reputation tarnished by this collection of miscreants?
I doubt it, I think he just wants to be on a winner. How can anyone blame him for a lack of talent on the team he happens to coach for?
Our we really supposed to believe NH has not completely destroyed the moral of the team by trading fan-favorite McLouth causing everyone terrific insecurity all the way from Doumit to Perry Hill?
I dunno, Our we? They should have kept Nate until he had no trade value left and then tried to get talent for him, just like the Pirates did with Craig Wilson and Kip Wells! Also, Andrew McCutchen is only .271/.348/.459 with a measly 11 home runs and 16 stolen bases. Meanwhile, Nate The Great has a fantastic .270/.357/.449 line with 9 home runs and 10 stolen bases since being traded to Atlanta. And Nate is 6 years older than McCutchen, therefore, Nate has a lot more upside than McCutchen does, right?
Other than the Nady trade, the rest (McLouth, Bay, LaRoche, Morgan, Wilson, Sanchez, and Grabow) can be best summarized as Salary Dump 2 painfully reminiscant of the circumstances leading to the exit of Aramis Ramirez and Jason Schmidt (Salary Dump 1).
Yeah, because that 07 team was just great, weren’t they? They only lost 94 games with that group playing everyday. How can Nyjer Morgan possibly be a “salary dump”? Both Morgan and Milledge are making less than $500,000 a season. Also, there’s some Pirates fan calling from July 26, 2008 to disagree about the Nady trade.
The only possible good news that we can hope for is the signing of Sanos which may not even happen leaving us with a Spring Training roster of guys who most certainly will lose 100 games this year.
Who is this Sanos you speak of? Do you think if the Pirates sign him, that he could convince Sano to sign too? And do you really expect Sano to be on the 25 man roster or even help the Major League club next season? Are you suggesting that Pedro Alvarez and Jose Tabata won’t help the club next season? Are you saying that Brad Lincoln won’t be pitching next year? Did you think of any of this before you wrote this post?
by IAPiratesFan on Sep 13, 2009 5:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the exit of Aramis Ramirez and Jason Schmidt (Salary Dump 1)
This is a good example of how the term “salary dump” gets thrown around without any concern for reality. (Morgan is another.) Ramirez was a salary dump. Schmidt was not. Schmidt was traded two years before Ramirez and two months before he was set to leave the team. He didn’t have a huge salary at the time, so they didn’t save much. He wasn’t traded to dump salary, he was traded in an effort to get something back before he left. He hated playing in Pittsburgh and nothing was going to get him to stay.
by WTM on Sep 13, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Salary Dump.
Of course it was a terrible trade. If the Pirates got something valuable in return, then I doubt it’d be associated with the whole “salary dump” complaint. I wonder why the Giles trade isn’t called a salary dump, which it basically was.
by IAPiratesFan on Sep 13, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I think 3 months is the perfect amount of time to evaluate a trade. And if the major league results aren’t a clear win for the Pirates right away, the “salary dump” tag is applied regardless if any salary was actually dumped (as you point out, the Morgan deal was virtually a dollar-neutral move and with some of the other trades, we actually paid salary to the other team).
- Gorkys'nBeans
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 13, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you should check your facts:
Bay, LaRoche, Wilson, Sanchez, and Grabow were all “traded” because management felt they couldn’t afford to re-sign them. That’s the clearest definition of a “Salary Dump” possible. Whether you trade a high-priced player because you don’t want to continue to pay him or fail to re-sign him despite his admittance to wanting to stay then you have a “Salary Dump”.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Sep 14, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree about all but one of those players (although, I still would have traded them). Bay is the one I single out because the Pirates couldn’t have afforded him. Not because they are cheap but because they just don’t have that kind of money. That’s just smart baseball to me.
by PensFan024 on Sep 14, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's not.
They felt that those players were not worth what it would take to sign them in the open market. Which is a totally different thing.
Salary dump means that the team was trying to get rid of a contract already on the books (like the Jays letting Alex Rios go to the White Sox for nothing). It wasn’t the case with any of those players.
by Vlad on Sep 14, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bingo!
And Jack and Freddy are gonna get a lot less money than they thought a year ago.
by dtoddwin on Sep 14, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're assuming...
…that a given player’s value to us is the same as his value to everyone else.
This is not, in general, true.
by Vlad on Sep 14, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By this definition, the Giles trade was a salary dump, yet it was a great trade from a baseball standpoint. Since you clearly intend the phrase “salary dump” to refer to trades that aren’t intended to make the team better, your definition is irrational judged by your own logic.
by WTM on Sep 14, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other than the Nady trade, the rest (McLouth, Bay, LaRoche, Morgan, Wilson, Sanchez, and Grabow) can be best summarized as Salary Dump 2 painfully reminiscant of the circumstances leading to the exit of Aramis Ramirez and Jason Schmidt (Salary Dump 1).
Other then Bay, the rest of those players are slightly below average major league players. I think losing for so long, and not having elite star-level players here in Pittsburgh, has blinded most fans into over-valuing their most recognizable ones.
by phil79 on Sep 13, 2009 6:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
IPF
Since you’re so disheartened by the present and future of the Pittsburgh Pirates, do yourself a favor and switch your allegiance to the Chicago Cubs.
That’s your part of the country, man.
We won’t mind.
by patthatt on Sep 13, 2009 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You keep posting; you should try READING sometimes. You might learn something….. (anything/one thing/PLEASE!)…..Oi….
by lighthouse913 on Sep 14, 2009 2:20 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Fielding:
"After all, our “pitch-to-contact” style of pitching only works if he has the talent that can be molded into successfully fielding ground balls and turning them into outs while anybody who has followed the Cubs knows the fielding problems encountered by Ronny Cedeno."
Cedeno hasn’t been as good as Jack Wilson for us, but he’s a temp who was added to get us through the year, not a building block. And he’s a better fielder than the best internal alternative before the trade (i.e. either Bixler or Vazquez). And he’s no more of a drag on the current defense than, say, Young or Jones.
by Vlad on Sep 14, 2009 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think people should be very careful about dismissing Cedeno’s defense based on his time with the Cubs. There’s a pretty common pattern with young players, especially infielders, of improving markedly on defense over their first few years. If you look at Jack Wilson’s UZR ratings, for instance, in his second year (they don’t have a figure for his first) he was pretty bad. They have Cedeno as very bad at the beginning of his time with the Cubs, but around average since then. Let’s also not forget that the Cubs in those Dusty Baker days were highly allergic to rookies. And Cedeno was basically a utility player except in one year, so this year since the trade is only his second extended stretch of playing short regularly. I think he’ll ultimately be at least a little above avg. defensively, although certainly no Jack Wilson.
by WTM on Sep 14, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Things figured to get worse before they get better
I think most of us, like you, are disappointed that the team hasn’t won more games this season but the struggles shouldn’t have surprised anyone.
If I understand you correctly, the approach you advocate is to keep the veterans and sign FAs to make the team better now and if we do trade, don’t take prospects but rather trade for experienced players only (or major league ready players as Dave Littlefield liked to put it). I’m sure if NH had done that, the team would have won a few more games this season but you must recognize that this is the approach that has been tried here for a long time with dismal results.
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 14, 2009 4:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In other words . . .
Nutting Hostage = Dave Littlefield
by WTM on Sep 14, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are likely the same person
I wouldn’t be surprised
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
by Green_Wave on Sep 14, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely expected this swan dive of epic proportions. I also understood the need to make the trades that have been made. Where I remain unconvinced at this time…is on the talent evaluation end of the situation…as it applies to acquisitions. Apart from the pitching acquisitions from the Nady trade…and Jones…there aren’t too many that have panned out positively for the long term…as of this time. I can’t put Young on the positive side…as he’s regressed significantly with the bat in the 2nd half. Milledge is still in the sample size issue to decide if he’s a benefit.
Those that we acquired that are in the minors haven’t put themselves ahead of the pack on their teams…and in many cases…are behind their peers. And outside of Pedro…we’ve got no 2008 draftees that are banging on the door of AA. A couple with a timid tap…but no one pounding on the door.
by Thunder on Sep 14, 2009 8:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
The Pirates theory is correct but the execution is lacking IMO. The McClouth deal is looking bad and so is the Bay deal. In reality those were the two biggest chips we had. They got really lucky on getting so much for Nady it kind a makes up for the Bay deal but Charlie Morton hasn’t been any better than the AAA guys we normally run out there and Gorkys has been non existant in the minors.
Proof’s in the pudding and 2011 better show some big changes or Neal should be fired.
by eyeofhorus777 on Sep 15, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How bad does the McLouth deal really look?
He’s been a good player this year, but not a great one: currently 3.1 WAR, tenth among ML CFs (between Ryan Sweeney and Colby Rasmus). For that, we got one prospect whose stock improved (Locke), one prospect whose stock declined (Gorkys), and a league-average ML starter (Morton – 4.50 FIP this year).
by Vlad on Sep 15, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But...but...
He’s an AllStarGoldGloveFanFavorite!
by maguro on Sep 15, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's "McLouth"
Guess you’re a huge fan, eh?
by matskralc on Sep 15, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I share your concern, Thunder. These observations would lead me to conclude that the team we are fielding now is essentially the same team we will open with in 2010. I must admit, I find that discouraging. If anyone has a more optimitic projection, please share. I could use some cheering up. I guess we all could.
....You'll be able to spit nails, kid. You're gonna eat lightning and you're gonna crap thunder....
by chodan11 on Sep 14, 2009 8:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't tell you if we'll win 70 next year
but I will tell you that the Lynchburg Hillcats are 2 wins away from being Carolina League champions. This is a team that features Chase D’Arnaud, Tony Sanchez, Justin Wilson, Ronald Uviedo, Josh Harrison, and Rudy Owens. All will be complementry players to the 3-headed monster of McCcutchen, Pedro, and Tabata in a few years.
by BadAndy on Sep 14, 2009 9:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if you’re expecting anything short-term, you’re going to find yourself disappointed. This team is the same team that will be on the field in 2010, give or take a few small differences. Also, I’m beginning to worry that the main part of the talent base is so far away that it will take the eventual trades of Cutch, Pedro, Tabata, and others to add enough talent that we will hope to compete in five-to-seven years. I really don’t see any other sure impact players anywhere near the majors (heck, it’s a stretch to call Tabata a potential impact player), so the team that will eventually win may not feature Cutch & company, but the likes of d’Arnaud, Marte, Owens, Grossman, etc. And that won’t be for several years. Can someone dissuade my concern here?
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
by wg1of5 on Sep 14, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would take
All the close MLB “prospects” to pan out by 2011 to prevent this situation IMO. Milledge and McCutchen have to develop some power. Milledge’s D needs to improve. Tabata has to find some power as well. Alvarez looks solid but it is never a given.
The big question is by 2011 where we going to find 2 to 3 new starters and a real number 1 pitcher to actually compete?
by eyeofhorus777 on Sep 15, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCutchen's power has developed nicely.
Anything more than what he has done would be icing on the cake. Between Indy and the Burg he has 22 2B, 14 3B and 15 HR’s. Pretty nice power for a 22 yr old.
by Slick1 on Sep 15, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People never look at triples.
Even though they should.
by Vlad on Sep 15, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cutch is the one player...
I’m LEAST worried about. I think he’s just running out of gas right now. I think the Pirates would take 60 XBH (30 2B, 10 3B, 20 HR…or some close combo) from Cutch next year.
by Thunder on Sep 15, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not that worried about Cutch
Or Alvarez, or Alderson even (I am a bit concerned about Tabata though). My main problem is that THIS IS IT. Beyond Cutch, Tabata, Alvarez, Alderson, and Lincoln, there is virtually nothing else promising in the system that will be here by 2011, unless Owens continues his meteoric rise or someone else begins one.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
by wg1of5 on Sep 15, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just want to see improvement
It seems too often we have players seemingly start to make strides only to regress next year. I just want Cutch to do better next year in all facets of his game.
As far as pitching we have all seen Snell, Gorzellany, Maholm and Duke all take steps back. Duke has improved this year and Maholm looks better recently but I just don’t have faith he will ever be consistent.
We haven’t had a young pitcher come up that was exciting since Duke and that was what 5 years ago?
by eyeofhorus777 on Sep 15, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it depends upon what it takes to get you excited
Ohlendorf has been doing a pretty decent impersonation of a staff ace in most of his recent starts.
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 16, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't
call Ohlendorf a young pitcher anymore he’s 27. If he was 22 it would be different. He’s very consistent with 7 quality starts out of the last 10 so I definately view him and Duke as bright spots this year.
by eyeofhorus777 on Sep 16, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is a little different for a pitcher
If a hitter’s first good season is at 27, he doesn’t figure to have a long career, but pitchers who get it together late can often go on to have quite a few good seasons.
Anyway, to me he seems like the best bet to be our staff ace over the next few seasons. I don’t think he will be arbitration eligible until 2011 but perhaps I am mistaken.
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 16, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You wanna see progress?
Check the Carolina League playoffs. Rudy Owens is dominating again today. That means Lynchburg has gotten good to great starts in all seven of their playoff games. Four of the five starters weren’t in the system when NH took over. For several years before this year, “Lynchburg pitching” was an oxymoron.
by WTM on Sep 15, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately...
Noah Krol gave up a 3 run HR…so Rudy can’t get the win. Lynchburg down 4-3 in the 8th.
by Thunder on Sep 15, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Walkoff homer of the scoreboard
by De Los Santos. First home run of his career. up 2-0 in the series
Steelers - Immaculate Reception. Penguins - Immaculate Rejection. Pirates......Immaculate Resurrection???
by JR89 on Sep 15, 2009 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uviedo got it
He was their best starter most of the year, and he’s not even in the rotation now.
by WTM on Sep 15, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The nicest thing about Lynchburg's success...
…is that they’re doing it with actual prospects, as opposed to the 25-year-old ringers that used to make the playoffs under Bonifay.
by Vlad on Sep 16, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you mean...ringers...
like Josh Bonifay.
by Thunder on Sep 16, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no.
Bonifay was an org player at Altoona, after his knees went bad, but he was still a legit prospect in his Lynchburg days. A bit old for the level at 23, but not grossly so, and he was a (notional) 2B with a .900+ OPS, which makes up for a lot.
Look at the roster from the 2005 club, though. Not one starting position player under the age of 23 (Guzman is listed at 21, but that’s only because the Cube didn’t ever note his age fraud after it was revealed). And who’s the best hitter on the squad? 27-year-old Pat Magness.
by Vlad on Sep 17, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks a lot for the link
Brad Rea, Taber Lee, Chaz Lytle, Brandon Chaves . . . .
I feel like I just looked at Medusa.
by WTM on Sep 17, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wish I knew what happened...
…to Mike McCuistion. Kid looked like a player for a while, there.
by Vlad on Sep 17, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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