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News Roundup: Nate McLouth Wouldn't Move From Center

Dejan Kovacevic has a point regarding the blackouts. It's frustrating because I'm in Morgantown right now and have time on my hands to watch the games on a nice TV for once. They're not on, and I can't watch them on MLB.tv either because you get blacked out of watching the game if you're in the viewing area. So, short of going to a bar (which, when the games start at 10:00, doesn't seem to be the best place to watch a game few of the other patrons would care about), I can't watch the games. On top of that, I just got a directive from SBN to put up a postgame thread for every game, and it's obviously difficult to comment intelligently on games I don't see. This wouldn't be so bad if it only happened for one game, but when it's day after day... well, anyway, that's enough complaining.

Anyway, I don't generally care what Doug Mientkiewicz thinks about much of anything, but the revelation that Nate McLouth refused to move to a corner (also covered in the fanposts) is pretty interesting. Having McLouth in center was one thing when the other two starting outfielders were Nyjer Morgan and Brandon Moss--by 2009, it probably wasn't optimal, but you could see why the Pirates might not have minded. In the 2007-2008 offseason, the Pirates had a video person compile footage of all the plays McLouth and Morgan made in center in 2007, and the Bucs determined that McLouth was the better centerfielder. Based on what I saw at that time, I can see why they felt that way--McLouth was nothing special, but he got good reads, played intelligently and had good hands, while Morgan got awful reads and ran to the ball in bizarre stairstep patterns that made routine plays seem like an adventure.

Morgan made substantial defensive improvements in 2009, though, and that was probably completely obvious to the Pirates by the time they traded McLouth. PNC Park has a big left field, and while I think the difficulty of playing left field there is somewhat overstated, it certainly isn't the worst thing in the world to have a capable centerfielder playing there. With Andrew McCutchen banging on the door, though, and McLouth refusing to move to a corner, the Bucs would have had two good defensive centerfielders playing the corners and a below-average centerfielder playing center. That's just silly, probably to the point that, if McLouth was really going to be stubborn about it, the Pirates would probably have been justified to just sell him off to the highest bidder. I know that UZR says that McCutchen has only been an average centerfielder this year, but we all know that isn't true. There's probably about a 15-run difference between McCutchen as a CF and McLouth as a CF over the course of a season, and that barely makes up for the extra runs McLouth provides on offense. Also, I would have rather had McCutchen in center, if only because that's the position he'd likely be playing in a couple years regardless of what happened to McLouth.

Of course, the Pirates later traded Morgan too, making some of this moot. They probably could have mitigated some of the loss of baseball talent they would have suffered by keeping McLouth in center by moving McCutchen to left. But I'm not sure they realized they'd get something interesting for Morgan.

By the way, McLouth eventually will have to move to a corner. He's not a very good defensive centerfielder, and most front offices know it.

UPDATE: Dejan Kovacevic says that McLouth might have been willing to change positions at some point, but did not want to "forfeit" center right away.

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Yeah

I’m actually happy to be out of market because I can watch every Pirates game still on MLB.tv — plus I have the Extra Innings package. It’s a real bummer to not see the home team on every game though, that just seems so odd to me.

by Slizeezyc on Sep 15, 2009 3:48 PM EDT reply actions  

I always wind up finding an illegal online stream of the games because I have no legitimate option to watch the games.

by ElDuce on Sep 15, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s a little ridiculous that you have to put up a post-game summary for each game.

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on Sep 15, 2009 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

It’s a network-wide thing. I think it makes sense for a lot of sports, like football. For Pirates games in September, though, it’s kind of tough.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 15, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah that’s true. Even for a team like the Cardinals or Yankees, it’s hardly worth writing up every game but whatever, doesn’t hurt me as the consumer at all.

SBN does seem to be trying to build itself as a sports website as a whole instead of just a loose grouping of blogs which is pretty cool and offers a nice alternative to mainstream sites like ESPN or FoxSports.

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on Sep 15, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right, and their reasons for wanting me to write up all the games have to do with that; apparently that will play better on SBNation.com. Yeah, I’m happy to see that website trying to become a sort of catchall for sports discussion. It’s long overdue, but now that they’ve done it they’ve done a nice job with it.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 15, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Charlie

Any chance of you starting your own blog? You, Vlad, Wilbur maybe hooking up with one common site???

by GeneClines on Sep 15, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh no, I’m not dissatisfied with SBN. I understand the policy, even, and I probably shouldn’t have mentioned it in a post. It’s just not a policy that’s very convenient for me right now, in September.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 15, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

By the way, as far as I’m concerned, Bucs Dugout is my blog. And I benefit quite a lot from the partnership with SBN, particularly in that they now have a deal with Yahoo that brings in a fair amount of traffic.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 15, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gotta say, this obnoxious wallpaper ad isn’t exactly going to encourage more mouse clicks from yours truly!

by matskralc on Sep 15, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

He looks like one of the balloons at Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade.

....You'll be able to spit nails, kid. You're gonna eat lightning and you're gonna crap thunder....

by chodan11 on Sep 15, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you click wide view in your left sidebar, that should help.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 15, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the McLouth issue...

I wasn’t aware that Nate was asked by the Pirates to move from CF to LF…but wouldn’t be surprised if that actually happened. I was under the impression that the Pirates weren’t going to ask him to move. If that move were to have occurred…I thought it would have happened in spring training. And some questioned why it didn’t happen at the time. I couldn’t even tell you which side I would have been on at that point.

That’s part of what disturbs me about the Pirates at this point…not making the necessary moves to put the BEST possible team on the field at most times. They tend to ride players into slumps so long that a player likely gets discouraged (Young and LaRoche as 2 examples).

by Thunder on Sep 15, 2009 5:29 PM EDT reply actions  

discouraged

It’s off topic, but surely I’m not the only one who is discouraged by the poor performance since the trades. I was hoping and expecting to see the youngsters that figure to be the future produce, something akin to the last couple months of 1987.

In fairness, I’m not really watching the games much any more. I’m hoping some of the regulars offer some thoughts on the performance since the trade deadline and what it means for early 2010 and beyond.

Thank you and good day.

by Uncle Nate on Sep 15, 2009 5:30 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce myself to you, Uncle Nate:

We might be the only two people upset with the poor performance of the team since the trades. Apparently, the rest of the posters had much lower expectations and are satisfied with waiting a few years before they announce their disatisfaction with the obvious lack of talent we received as compensation for the nucleus of our team.

Living between St. Louis and Chicago has caused me to have to purchase MLB Extra Innings just so I can watch the Pirates. I’ve seen all but about 5 games this year and believe I have a feel for the lack of talent I’ve seen put on the field. In addition, if one factors in the Charlie’s projected declines for both Jones and D. Young because of their ages, along with the overall lack of skills currently on the roster, it is safe to assume that the Bucs will lose 100 games both this year as well as next year.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Sep 15, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I personally love it when they lose...

I can’t wait for consecutive 100 loss seasons. Anyone can win, but 18 years of losing…now that’s an accomplishment!!!

by Slick1 on Sep 15, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

what did you expect?

did you expect an improvement? Did you expect to be better than we were? We aren’t satisfied we’re losing, but we know that our big time players, wont be up here for a while. This is Alvarez, Lincoln, Tabata (who we traded for mind you), and what seems like the entire Lynchburg Hillcats. We aren’t satisfied with the record, we just are prepared to sacrifice two years of below average play to field a winning team

Steelers - Immaculate Reception. Penguins - Immaculate Rejection. Pirates......Immaculate Resurrection???

by JR89 on Sep 15, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I may

I think the alarm comes from the sense that not a single position player on the current team, except Cutch and maybe Doumit, appears to belong on a good major league team. Considering that that’s 6 guys, 4 of whom came in trades, that’s a distressing sign of what’s to come. We don’t actually have that much talent in the pipeline – we need some of the current bunch to step up.

Actually, Milledge probably belongs on the list too, but I’m not sold on him yet, plus OF is the least of our problems. But right now it looks to me like we have, for our alleged winning season in 2012, an OK but not great OF, a bomber at 1B or 3B, an OK but not great catcher, and crickets. That’s a lot of holes, or a lot of hoping (for breakthrough seasons, for guys to step up, for guys to advance swiftly and surely).

Sorry, I’m not feeling especially disgruntled right now, but I certainly get where Nate and IPF are coming from.

by JRoth95 on Sep 15, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know who you are

I’ve been around this blog for about a year and a half after being primarily on another Pirates site for a decade… so I know of you.

I fully agree with the direction management has plotted and have liked the vast majority of their moves – at least in theory. However, I did expect a much better response from the current group of players – especially after that 7-2 home stand.

Cutch is a stud. Milledge has showed promise at times. Jones has been a revelation, but that’s a unique situation. And that’s about it. I don’t think it was unreasonable to hope for postive performances from some combination of 2B, 3B, C or any of the pitchers.

Good day.

by Uncle Nate on Sep 16, 2009 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Go to Gene's

It’s on Wilson Avenue in Greenmont. You can probably persuade whoever’s tending bar to put the Pirates on one of the TVs for you. You play in smoky clubs so you should have some tolerance for the atmosphere. When I get out of here 11:30ish I’ll see if you’re there.

by bucdaddy on Sep 15, 2009 5:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Tolerance isn’t the same thing as liking it. :) Can’t tonight, but I may check out the afternoon game tomorrow.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Sep 15, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dodger announcers were astonished by McCutchen's defense

Charlie said:

I know that UZR says that McCutchen has only been an average centerfielder this year, but we all know that isn’t true.

In the 5th last night, McCutchen made an over the shoulder grab on a ball hit hard by Furcal. The Dodger radio announcers went crazy saying it was a fantastic play. The next batter, Matt Kemp, smoked a single to CF and the Dodger color man groused “Catch that!” under his breath, but audibly.

by WstCstBucco on Sep 15, 2009 6:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Datapoint on LF

I posted this once before, back in June I think: The way the Pirates have positioned their OF this season, the left fielder covers something like 150% of the acreage that the RF does. I can’t recall whether it’s more or less than the CF, but it’s comparable. If anyone wants, I can dig up the graphic analysis I did.

by JRoth95 on Sep 15, 2009 10:20 PM EDT reply actions  

I am pretty surprised that Nate would have refused to play anywhere but center. He didnt seem like that kind of guy to me. A couple years ago he seemed like a real humble guy who was just grateful to have a chance to player everyday. Did 1 good season really change him that much??

by biglar33 on Sep 16, 2009 9:19 AM EDT reply actions  

That brings up a question I've wondered about

Did Nate actually refuse to move from CF or is this just an unconfirmed rumor that he did?

And a related question – can he even do that? I was under the impression that the manager made such decisions. Maybe there is something in the collective bargaining agreement that .260 hitters with 3 years of experience get to decide what position they will play.

by WestCoastBuc on Sep 16, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wondered the same thing. ‘Not wanting to play a corner’ is much less egregious than “refusing”, as refusing would imply insubordination. I never thought of Nate as a prima donna. He just never seemed that way, if anything I had thought of him as the model team player. Who knows?

....You'll be able to spit nails, kid. You're gonna eat lightning and you're gonna crap thunder....

by chodan11 on Sep 16, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree it's not in his public persona

But who knows what he was like in the clubhouse.

As for “refusal,” this came up in the past when I posited an OF of McLouth, Morgan, and Bay, with Bay in RF. People at the time said Bay wouldn’t do it, as if he actually had some sort of choice. Barring “Operation Shutdown,” he wouldn’t.

That said, making your All-Star, face of the franchise player unhappy, with presumptive sniping in the press and bad attitude in the clubhouse, doesn’t seem like a recipe for productivity. Also, for him to be effective at another OF position, he’d have to do extra work, which he could easily half-ass (imagine if DYoung weren’t< trying his damnedest to learn 2B). If the team thought it was necessary, they’;d suck it up and force him, but that puts them in a terrible position. Trading him would be far preferable, esp. for an ostensibly favorable deal.

by JRoth95 on Sep 16, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

He'd have to do extra work

Well, that explains it, the poor dear. One certainly wouldn’t want to go that far to permit your team’s top prospect to come up and play his natural position.

by WestCoastBuc on Sep 16, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, it would be inexcusable. I’m just pointing out what method he’d have for resisting a switch he’s contractually bound to execute.

You could talk about his desire to maintain his value (his bat’s more valuable as a CF than as a corner OF), but, given his contract, that doesn’t really fly.

by JRoth95 on Sep 16, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

By the way

Someone linked the fantasy baseball post comparing Cutch with McLouth. From comments around here, I had assumed that McLouth had regressed a lot farther than he has, and that we were lucky to be rid of him. He hasn’t had an All-Star season, but he’s no Tike Redman, either.

by JRoth95 on Sep 16, 2009 12:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Interesting post

I had note seen this before DK posted it. I’d love to see McLouth’s response. I haven’t yet.

I guess I don’t understand why baseball teams give players with guaranteed contracts the option.

You are going to RF. Period. That would have been my response.

But it certainly explains more why the Pirates acted when they did.

by Bernie6666 on Sep 16, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Hey Charlie, you might want to update this, or even repost – DK addresses this topic in the Q&A today, and his take is that Nate was very clear that he wanted to stay in CF, but also acknowledged that he would not stay there over the long term in a Morgan, Cutch, & McLouth OF. DK also says that Nate’s stunned response to the trade didn’t seem to reflect any kind of ongoing tension with the front office.

by JRoth95 on Sep 17, 2009 12:02 PM EDT reply actions  

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