Pirates Lose Again, 4-0
by Charlie on Sep 20, 2009 6:26 PM EDT
41 comments
The Pirates today lost yet another game that no one saw; again, it wasn't on TV, meaning that if you're in the Pittsburgh area, you didn't see it unless you had access to Extra Innings or were physically at the game. MLB.tv, which carries every game for me when I'm in San Diego, won't show the games to folks who are in market.Paradoxically, I'm excited to get out of the Pittsburgh area and back to California, so that I can watch my Pittsburgh-based team.
There's been something deeply strange about the couple of weeks I've spent in Morgantown, prevented from watching the games, while checking box score after box score in which the Bucs score one run at most. Today, the Bucs were missing Garrett Jones, Andy LaRoche and Delwyn Young, making their already-awful lineup even more awful. And even in that last sentence, there would probably be more than a few knowledgeable fans of other teams who would probably find it odd that the Pirates' lineup is so bad that it yearns for guys like Jones, LaRoche and Young. Those same people might also be surprised by a trip to ESPN.com's Pirates stats page, where you see LaRoche's face three times because he's leading the team in average, RBI and OBP... largely because he's the only Pirate this year with more than 400 at bats.
It's all very sad, this team that no one sees, fielding a lineup where no one hits, and playing game after game where no one scores. I probably feel the Pirates' complete invisibility more than most; it's very hard to blog games I can't watch and that no one writes about, and I actually wonder if indifference to the Bucs right now might be higher than at any point since I started blogging about them. It affects Bucs Dugout's traffic and just generally makes the whole enterprise less fun until something interesting happens. Also, I'm not a football fan, and I miss having minor league box scores to check each day.
Mostly, though, I see this streak of awful baseball as a price that needs to be paid for the years in which the Pirates could have undergone a complete rebuilding, and didn't. And actually, despite losing game after game, I think these Bucs could be whipped into a good team quicker than you might think. The starting pitching, actually, has not been bad; several hitters, including Jones, Andrew McCutchen and Ronny Cedeno, have been better than expected; and Lastings Milledge has showed a fair amount of potential. One of the most problematic areas--the first base / right field position that isn't being played by Jones--should soon be resolved by the arrival of Pedro Alvarez (or Jose Tabata), and Brandon Moss will move into a reserve role for which he'll be better suited. The bullpen has been dreadful recently, but bullpens experience a lot of fluctuation year to year, and a good GM can fix a bullpen quickly if he prioritizes it. The Pirates have been bad since the trades they made in June and July, but there's more there than you'd guess from their record.
Still, the Bucs are a couple sticks shy of a load right now, and it'll be a bumpy ride toward contention, if the Pirates ever get there. But if I squint right now, I can begin to see something bright on the horizon, and if the Bucs have to be a little worse than usual in the meantime while they pursue it, that's fine. I do wish they'd score some runs, though, and a TV appearance now and then would be nice.
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Don't count on Extra Innings
Not sure about today, but they seldom show the Pirates in September.
by WTM on Sep 20, 2009 6:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They were here.
I have DirecTV and they were showing the game. I live in Iowa. Don’t know if that makes any difference.
by IAPiratesFan on Sep 20, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know it hurts
But why would they really care, even if people complained they’d get like what 20?
by eyeofhorus777 on Sep 20, 2009 7:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I've been saying this for a long time
The worst emotion that can attach itself to any team is apathy. Even anger has at its roots a deep love which simply surfaces as anger when things don’t turn out right. However, apathy means nobody cares if they win or lose and that is the natural outcome for an organization like the Pirates. NH obviously didn’t think through his strategy or he would have done things differently. One cannot continue running out a collection of stiffs with very little talent and expect people to continue caring. He has failed miserably to give fans some hope causing more and more to become apathetic to the play of the Pirates. There is a reason NH was demoted by the Indians and we are seeing just one of the reasons unfold.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Sep 20, 2009 7:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I am more inclined to see the basis anger as immaturity, inpatience, and pathologic narcissism. Healthy adults tend to manage things beyond their control with grace and discipline. Negative attitudes tend to grow in the hearts of those who feel unloved.
....You'll be able to spit nails, kid. You're gonna eat lightning and you're gonna crap thunder....
by chodan11 on Sep 20, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see what you're getting at
But you have to remember it’s the end of, yet, another losing season. And as the season drags on people slowly begin to “go through the motions”. Nearly all our prospects are in the minors and besides rooting for a few of the players in the starting lineup (some of which are injured and out of the lineup), there’s just nothing to look forward to let alone enjoy.
There’s nothing to be angry at. This was a long time coming when we decided to go young and move all our legitimate players.
Of course when the next season starts everyone will be excited again. We’ll have prospects who should make the jump to look forward to resulting in a better team.
by dulciusEXasperis on Sep 20, 2009 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which prospects will be with the team leaving spring training. I was under the assumption the team would look pretty much like this one until Alvarez and Tabata were ready.
by eyeofhorus777 on Sep 20, 2009 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
None!
Even if Pedro hits 10 HR or Tabata bats .600 in 50 ABs during ST. You won’t see Lincoln head North either.
They won’t pay Super 2 salaries to these guys. Think of the difference in the millions.
They will be in the Burgh in June barring any injury setbacks.
It’s gonna be a rough couple of months to start the season which hopefully spells the end of JR as manager. I wouldn’t be surprised if on June 1st we have between 10-15 wins.
by BadAndy on Sep 20, 2009 8:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Bad Andy
“Even if Pedro hits 10 HR or Tabata bats .600 in 50 ABs during ST. You won’t see Lincoln head North either.”
Alvarez will definitely start 2010 in Indy, and very probably Tabata will as well.
But I wouldn’t be shocked if Lincoln made the Opening Day roster with a strong spring performance. He’ll be 25 in May and it’s time to start seeing what he can do in the majors. And I’m also not sure that the organization will worry about his service time issues the way they did with Cutch, and undoubtedly will with Alvarez/Tabata.
One way or the other, Lincoln has got to make big strides with his pitching next year if he’s going to be a big part of the Pirates’ future.
by patthatt on Sep 21, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably the same in terms of prospects...
…but they’ve got $20-30M in FA money to play with this offseason. That’s enough to add at least a couple of fairly significant pieces.
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that a good investment?
Two kinds of FAs: ones who are due for a payday and ones who need a good year in order to reach that payday (there’s also a third kind: mediocre players who’ll never see a payday). It doesn’t make any sense for the 2010 Pirates to sign any of the former – all it would do would be to get us closer to 90 losses than to 100, and that would cost us $15M. As for the latter category, best case is that they play well and we lose a couple fewer games, and then they leave. Worst case is that they’re just as bad as what we’ve got, but it costs us $7M.
I mean, hey, if NH can find us some sort of deal on a 2B or RF who’s cheap but could play well above Moss/Pearce/Young levels, then that’s fine. But I just don’t see the point in blowing a lot of money on what will be an awful team regardless. When DL was adding (bad) pieces, he was generally adding them to a core that, if you looked at it with a squint, had some ML talent. This team (SPs aside) simply doesn’t. You could add 3 All-Stars and I’m not sure that gets you to .500.
by JRoth95 on Sep 21, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's hard to speak about FAs in abstract.
Some would be good signings, and some would not. And of course, price and length of deal matter.
No way to give a deal thumbs-up or thumbs-down without knowing all that stuff.
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And with what's out there...
there aren’t too many opportunities to find someone that fits those roles (2B or corner OF).
by Thunder on Sep 21, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well right
Any given FA signing could be a brilliant one (I actually hadn’t yet read DK’s piece referencing Ankiel before my comment – he’s an interesting option). I just don’t see us as being in a position where a FA will make a great difference. The biggest thing, to me, is that it doesn’t matter what the holes are in ‘10; it matters what they are in ’11 and ’12. For ’10, I’d love to see a FA in RF, let Jones & Clement duel for 1B, and set Moss on the bench. But, by ‘11, Tabata needs to be in RF, or we’re in trouble (because his failure would represent a big piece of our future dissolving). So what’s the FA there for?
2B’s different, because there’s no one coming anytime soon; OTOH, DYoung remains an interesting piece, and it doesn’t serve us well to bench him next year – I’d rather know for certain what he is than gain a handful of wins. We can always sign a 2B after ’10 if DY is a bust. Even if we find a FA 2B that we love and want to sign for 3 years, the first year is basically a waste.
by JRoth95 on Sep 21, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can never have too much talent.
If we have three good corner OFs for two spots in 2011, we can trade one of them for something else we need.
In all likelihood, Delwyn young is what he’s been this year: A poor defensive 2B (and tolerable corner OF) good for a low-.700s OPS. If he’s the best they’ve got come spring, they should use him, but his ceiling’s not high enough to worry about blocking him if there’s a better option available.
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But if one of the extra OFs is a FA signing, he’s not likely to be worth much in a trade – look at what we got for Hinske. I realize that’s not exactly the kind of player we’re contemplating, but it strikes me as a wrong-headed strategy to sign an FA with the expectation of trading him. And, again, if we’re not trading him, then we’re looking at disaster.
I wouldn’t weep if DY doesn’t get another long look in ‘10; I just don’t want to waste $8M on a 2B for a 98 loss team next year.
But hey, I’m always up for a good value contract – if Ankiel will sign for 3 years at $20M (or, better, $15M with incentives up to $20M), then he’s (probably) a good value, either as a player or as tradebait. The only downside is if ‘09 turns out to be his true talent level, but even then it’s not a backbreaker of a contract on a team with a payroll as low as Pittsburgh’s.
by JRoth95 on Sep 21, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't sign the FA in the expectation of trading him.
You sign the FA in the knowledge that he gives you useful depth, and one of the possible expressions of that depth (if everybody pans out and stays healthy) involves trading one or more of your players at the position. I.e. if Ankiel, Milledge, and Tabata are all playing well in ‘10, you can trade whichever of the three will give you the greatest return relative to the player’s true “value”, and fill another hole that way.
Hinske brought virtually nothing back because he’s not a particularly accomplished player, because he requested a trade and removed much of our leverage, and because he was only under contract/control for a few more months.
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with most of what you have written in this thread
If the Pirates can afford to spend, say, an average of $55 million per year on player salaries, it seems to me it would be optimal to vary the amount spent significantly from year to year so maybe something like $35 million is spent in down years and $75 million in years that show more promise. It also seems clear that if the team were to adopt something along those lines 2010 should be a $35 million year. I see very little upside for the Pirates in spending anything significant on FAs next season compared to saving it for years in which we have a legitimate shot at competing and might have a real shot at landing an impact player..
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 21, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is one time I agree with IPF.
Apathy toward the Pirates is a bad sign. Unfortunately…not only are we seeing apathy toward the Pirates…we are also seeing it WITHIN the organization.
Management’s job…should they choose to accept it…is to give the Pirates fans a reason to look forward to next season. The current roster will not be capable of doing that…as poorly as they have played the last few months. If the fans know they aren’t going to be seeing Alvarez…Tabata…Lincoln…etc for at least several months of the 2010 season…attendance could be real ugly early next year.
by Thunder on Sep 20, 2009 8:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I might argue with you
But I just don’t care enough.
by WTM on Sep 20, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice
I was thinking about the apathy thing today, listening to the game, working on the house, imagining myself as one of about 100 people in the City of Pittsburgh who would rather do that than get ready for the Steelers (as it happened, the Pirates ended 5 minutes before the Steelers began, but I actually would have listened to the Pirates even had the Steelers started at 1; that’s just how I feel about the 2 sports).
I know that a lot of folks around here have said that apathy is irrelevant, and that the Penguins experience shows that it doesn’t matter if the Pirates don’t even get 1M fans next season, because if/when they start winning, they’ll fill the stands. The problem with that theory is twofold: first of all, the Pens spent all of 4 seasons sucking – they were perennial contenders until Jagr left, then instantly became interesting once Sid arrived. That doesn’t even begin to compare with the Pirates situation. Second of all, it’s not just about caring about the team; it’s also about caring about the sport. Pittsburgh’s “lost generation” will be happy to get drunk and spill into the streets when the Pirates win the 2015 World Series. But they won’t, actually, know or care much about the game of baseball – they won’t be good, knowledgeable fans of the sport, because they won’t have grown up on it. One of the things that inspires kids to follow and play a sport is having the local team be successful – what Pittsburgh kid in the last 2 decades has wanted to pick up a bat in order to be like his favorite Pirate? And the result of that is fewer fans who want to come to games in years when they aren’t winning the WS – say, in a 83-win 2017. The Pirates have created a situation where they’ll have to reach (or just miss) the playoffs 4-5-6 years in a row to rebuild the habits of fans (not to mention the local media environment, which dates the end of baseball season to the day that the janitors at St. Vincent’s start getting the dorms ready for the Steelers).
by JRoth95 on Sep 21, 2009 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apathy is normal for me.
There hasn’t been a season this decade that I didn’t feel pretty apathetic once September rolled around. It’s hard to care about a losing team finishing up a bad season. The Pirates have had lots of these kinds of September.
Last September I was feeling pretty apathetic as the season finished up. The Pirates were 16-37 the final two months of the season and I felt like things were going to be bad in 2009, and I was right. In 2007, I was so disgusted by the Matt Morris trade and the Danny Moskos drafting that I had basically given up on August 1st, I think I only watched one or two more games that season. I canceled plans to see a game in Milwaukee with a few friends because I didn’t want to watch the team that Dave made.
In 2006, there was a little excitement, but only because Freddy Sanchez was winning the battle title, the Pirates had a good 2nd half and they stopped the Mets from celebrating a division title in Pittsburgh. In fact, i would say that the 2006 Pirates probably had the most exciting August and September in the decade.
Also when has management ever given the fans any hope for the next season this past decade and a half? When they sent our closer away for Adam LaRoche? When they wasted money on Jeromy Burnitz and Sean Casey? When they signed Derek Bell? Neal Huntington hasn’t done a perfect job, but he’s made me a lot more excited about this teams chances the next couple years than Dave Littlefield ever did.
by IAPiratesFan on Sep 20, 2009 10:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't even
listen to the game on radio here, as the Pirates affiliate was carrying some pro football game that wasn’t even the Steelers. The station here usually goes out of its way to avoid airing Pirates games at all times, but especially in September, when high school football, college football, pro football, NASCAR races, the rigor mortis-inducing Monday golf talk show, Rush Limbaugh and just about anything else offers an alternative.
Not that this game was worth listening to.
by bucdaddy on Sep 20, 2009 11:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s interesting, in the Post-Gazette they are reporting that the Pirates are looking on the free agent market for a corner infielder, with Rick Ankiel maybe a possibility. That would reduce the chance of a Tabata call-up in the first half.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 21, 2009 1:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That signing...
would be the kiss of death for Brandon Moss and/or Steven Pearce…if they aren’t already dead in the Pirates organization.
by Thunder on Sep 21, 2009 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I think they have had their chances don’t you? At some point I would hope to have an actual real player at the position.
by eyeofhorus777 on Sep 21, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say...
that both have had as much chance as they are going to get with this organization. And neither took full advantage of that opportunity.
by Thunder on Sep 21, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rick Ankiel?
Just what we need to replace Moss, a 29 Y.O. OF with an OPS+ of 77 in 351 ABs this season. Sounds a lot like Moss only a little older, more expensive and worse.
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 21, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question is whether...
…this year’s performance is representative of his true level of ability, or whether his 2007-2008 numbers are. There’s a good reason (i.e. his headfirst collision with the outfield wall, and resulting month-long stay on the DL) to think that 2009 isn’t telling the whole story.
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
but perhaps Moss can improve on the season he has just produced. At least he is at an age at which players tend to improve rather than decline. Also, Ankiel hit only .231/.311/.374 before the injury, which was not much different than what he did afterwards.
It seems to me that if the team wants to spend on FAs, there are more pressing needs than a corner OF, 2B or the pen, for instance.
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 21, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Moss has a...
25 HR season…or an .845 OPS…as Ankiel did in 2008…then we can talk about it.
by Thunder on Sep 21, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your numbers are wrong.
Through May 4, Ankiel was hittting .247/.326/.395, in about a month’s playing time.
Your numbers also include the games he played at the end of May after coming back, which predictably dragged his overall line down a bit more.
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I knew he got hurt in early May and I took your mention above of a month-long stay on the DL to mean he didn’t return until June.
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 21, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I probably should've been more specific.
It was more like three-weeks-and-a-little-bit.
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Real Question is
What FA’s would want to come and play for the Pirates right now? They would have to know 2010 is a dead season with possibly 100 losses. Would they want to be a part of that if they had any other options? Would we have to really overpay to get a decent player?
by eyeofhorus777 on Sep 21, 2009 3:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bounceback guys
Barring a massive overpay (which would be the DL plan), you’re looking at guys who were down in ‘09 for one reason or another, and will go anywhere they can start and regain their value. Remember – there’s only 30 starting jobs at any given position, and 1/2 – 2/3 of those are locked up before spring training starts. Not every FA can afford to turn his nose up at the “lowly Pirates.”
That said, with bounceback guys, it’s hard to get any kind of commitment – either he bounces back, and wants to go back on the market the next season, or he doesn’t, and the team doesn’t want him the next season. This is where club options and buyouts come in, but it’s all messy.
by JRoth95 on Sep 21, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the theory wasn’t Craig Monroe a player like that? I guess we can hope for someone who was injured and is now fully healed or a player like a Jake Fox who doesn’t have a real position with the Cubs but can hit.
by eyeofhorus777 on Sep 21, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Craig Monroe was washed-up.
And never particularly good even at his peak, once you consider his OBP and defense.
He could’ve “bounced back” a long way and still been useless.
by Vlad on Sep 22, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do the Pirates even matter anymore?
I’m a Pirate fan mostly from the mid 60-early 80’s teams. I try to relate the history of the lumber company but it becomes like finding the value of pi. They’ve been losing for so long I don’t envision them ever becoming a meaningful franchise again. At least they have a great ballpark that out of town fans can visit and spend their dollars.
by Raxman on Sep 23, 2009 5:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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