Andy LaRoche Goes Berzerk
by Charlie on Sep 28, 2009 2:57 PM EDT
75 comments
5-5, two homers, two doubles, six RBIs against his former team.... and now a curtain call. This is insane. This is a huge day for LaRoche, Zach Duke and the Pirates. It's been wonderful to see LaRoche's hitting pick up this month. As I type this, LaRoche is smiling broadly. I think this is the first time I've ever seen him do that.
UPDATE: Duke narrowly missed a shutout, allowing a triple and a sacrifice fly in the ninth. The Bucs win, 11-1, with a startling amount of that offense coming from LaRoche. Garrett Jones hit a solo homer, though, and Andrew McCutchen had three hits. This was a great series for the Bucs, who take three of four from the Dodgers, the last one in extremely impressive fashion.
UPDATE II: I've argued since he was acquired that LaRoche should have a place in the Pirates' starting lineup, and it's nice to see him have some success. But he's far from out of the woods. Even after today's binge, he still has only a .736 OPS. That's acceptable given his good defense, but the main reason you accept it is because it's only his age-25 season and there's still some room for improvement.
UPDATE III: John Russell's decision to remove Duke with one out left doesn't interest me much, personally, but feel free to discuss that here, too.
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Maybe
Fans will remember this last glimpse of him when next season starts.
And hopefully he picks up next season where he’s at right now.
Good for Andy.
by Yotum on Sep 28, 2009 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I could see him maybe following the same pattern as Adam LaRoche, stinking in the first half before putting up huge 2nd half numbers.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 28, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Andy put up OPSes of .915, .803, .841 and .867 with good 3B defense than, even with streakiness, I’d be pleased.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 28, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice Win
to finish the home schedule…a nice treat for the die hards.
by Mick Kraut on Sep 28, 2009 3:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m glad to see Andy pick it up like this and have a day this big. I hope this is the real Andy so he can lock up third base for the next few years.
by Sage18 on Sep 28, 2009 3:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
also it’s awesome that he did this against the dodgers
by Sage18 on Sep 28, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The LaRoches are the streakiest players in MLB history.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 28, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Taking 3 of 4 from the Dodgers is a great way to end the home schedule. Seen lots of nice things that past few days and I hope all the good carries over to next season.
by Jett on Sep 28, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I had a half hour break between classes today and thought I’d check the score of the game…in no way would I have expected us to be winning, let alone 9-0 at the time I checked. For all the troubles the Pirates have had this year this is a great way to end the home schedule, taking 3 of 4 from the Dodgers, preventing them from clinching the NL West in the process.
We’ve got 7 games left now, 4 at Wrigley and 3 more in Cincy, and to avoid 100 losses we’ll need to go 4-3 over this last stretch. It would be simply amazing if we could pull off 63 wins, both for the team’s morale as well as to delay the inevitable stupid and ridiculous criticism of Neal Huntington and his management, even though his managing is a very welcome change from Littlefield’s idiocy.
by Akshay R on Sep 28, 2009 4:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Right. It’s just a number. Is there really that big a difference between 98 and 101, for example?
by Charlie on Sep 28, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I saw us winning 9-0...
…I’d probably suspect a forfeit.
by Vlad on Sep 28, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope, no difference at all in this context. Problem is that if we do hit 100 losses, the inevitable criticism of Huntington will come a few months sooner than otherwise. That’s why I really hope they buckle down these last few games and pull off 63 wins, just to delay that criticism from happening.
by Akshay R on Sep 28, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference could be the second and third pick in the draft though.
by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Sep 28, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is a good point. We have no realistic chance of doing worse than Washington now, but Baltimore’s played 1 more game and 1 more win than us. Personally I hope Baltimore wins out and we go 5-2 over the rest of the year, so we end up with the 2nd pick w/o losing 100 games.
by Akshay R on Sep 28, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’d rather get the second pick because the damn O’s win some games, but it doesn’t look like it’s happening. They lost their 11th straight tonight.
by WTM on Sep 28, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a difference?
Yes, next year when discussing the Pirates, in spring training, the national media can’t call them the first Pirate team since the 50’s with a hundred losses.
100 is kind of a milestone that i don’t want to see happen in my lifetime.
I just hope the 100th loss(if it does occur) is another direct result of a John Russell tactical move backfiring, but you know it’s coming, 6 games left.
by tom p on Sep 29, 2009 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They couldn't call them that anyway.
The 2001 team had 100 losses, as did the 1985 team.
And is there any topic that you can’t/won’t try to loop back into an irrational criticism of Russell? I expect to come on here some day and see “Russell kidapped the Lindbergh baby” or “RUSS DID WTC1”.
by Vlad on Sep 29, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did anyone else see this Milledge quote---
From the MLB site, posted last night after yesterdays win… they quote Lastings Milledge as saying “We’re treating this like our playoffs. When we’re in the postseason next year, we’ll know how it feels. We are just trying to treat this as our postseason and get the feeling down.”
I can only smile that quote.
The link is here:
by lighthouse913 on Sep 28, 2009 4:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
great quote
That is a good quote…
by FusilliJerry88 on Sep 28, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And when they're in it next year:
I’ll move to Pittsburgh to be there when they’re in the playoffs.
by IAPiratesFan on Sep 28, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaRoche
As you already know I’ve been a big supporter of Neil Walker, and not so much of Laroche. Not that I don’t think Laroche is a good player I just always thought Walker had much higher upside. Since Laroche plays some good defense hes grown on me, and now that hes had a day like today you know hes capable of these kinds of days more often. And like you said his .736 OPS is acceptable with his good defense; I sitll argue that it would look even better coming from 2nd base. Imagine having Laroches defense at second while hitting .270 avg.,15-20 HR, 70-80 RBI, and having an infield of Jones, Laroche, Cedeno, and Alvarez.
by FusilliJerry88 on Sep 28, 2009 4:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LaRoche and 2b
2b sure looks like his future to me. Alvarez will be up in July and playing every day.
I’m sure the Pirates will give Jones a chance to show this season isn’t a fluke. I suspect it is. But if he can be a 25 HR, 90 RBI guy, he’s not hurting the team.
Put LaRoche’s statistics at 2b with above average defense and you have something.
Yes, you can get by with this numbers at 3b. But that’s not an option soon. Find out if he can play 2b. Can we be worse than Young?
by Bernie6666 on Sep 28, 2009 5:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know, but I wouldn’t be shocked to see the Bucs just dispense with the idea that Alvarez is a third baseman, and move him to first.
by Charlie on Sep 28, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Trib finally mentioned it this weekend, saying Alvarez has to “slim down even more” this off season to stay in the 3B discussion.
This has been PBC’s second most ridiculous “secret.”
The most ridiculous secret is Capps weight — DK finally has moved off the “what weight problem?” meme to the “Capps conditioning neither hurts nor helps the team” meme. Progess comes slowly.
by WstCstBucco on Sep 28, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I spoke too soon. From Monday:
NH: “Barring some unforeseen circumstance, if Matt comes into camp in the best shape, ready to pitch, he will be our closer.”
DK: "Do not read too much into the “best shape” line. . . no one is down on Capps’ conditioning."
In DK’s world, Denial is not a river in Egypt.
by WstCstBucco on Sep 28, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NH praised his 3B defense in the World Cup Whatever
I think they’re really committed to the idea of him at 3B. He’s much more valuable there, and, unless Andy turns into a monster, he helps our team much, much more there.
by JRoth95 on Sep 28, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
But I think the Pirates are going to try everything to get him into top shape this fall.
NH talked about the conditioning program he needs to follow. I doubt he’d be pushing it that much if the goal wasn’t to keep him at 3b.
He has a lot more value there. Also, it doesn’t force the Pirates to play Jones in the OF.
I suspect Alvarez will eventually end up at 1b. I just think it’s going to be a few more years.
by Bernie6666 on Sep 29, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andy’s day has already been memorialized on Youtube, with a predictable soundtrack.
by ElDuce on Sep 28, 2009 5:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
PBC Blog is in top form. I checked it, guessing that there’d be more people blasting Russell than talking about LaRoche. I was right.
by WTM on Sep 28, 2009 5:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ah man, I didn’t even want to talk about that.
by Charlie on Sep 28, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JR still manages to do the inexplicable, wrong, never-before seen in 100 years of MLB baseball, bad decision every couple games.
Even Dodger 3B coach Larry Bowa couldn’t believe pulling Duke. If a real manager had done it, there’d be a grievance filed by the Player’s Union that the PBC was trying to drive down Duke’s arbitration salary for next year.
by WstCstBucco on Sep 28, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Larry Bowa is a complete and utter moron.
Of course he thinks Duke should’ve stayed in. Bowa doesn’t believe in monitoring pitchers’ workloads at all. He was part of Dallas Green’s whole cabal in Philly, where they shredded arms wholesale and then blamed it on bad luck.
by Vlad on Sep 29, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I still post there occasionally, for some reason, but the nattering nabobs of negativity are too much to deal with sometimes.
(RIP William Safire)
by biggyv on Sep 28, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I feel like being a glutton for punishment, I’ll read that blog. But I’ve given up commenting there or on Smizik’s blog.
by IAPiratesFan on Sep 28, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smizik's blog is amazing
DK’s a beat writer; Smizik’s blog is essentially the P-G paying one of the PBC Blog posters to write a column.
by biggyv on Sep 28, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love posting on there.
And pointing out disparities in his blogs. Smizek has deleted my posts on occasion, I feel honored.
by EndlessMike on Sep 28, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool.
Deleting your posts? That is an honor. I’m gonna try that now. If I can remember my password.
by IAPiratesFan on Sep 28, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
Good series and IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A SWEEP. There I am greedy but god did our pen suck.
by eyeofhorus777 on Sep 28, 2009 5:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Realistically the Pirates had a pretty good shot at taking at least 5 of the 7 games with LA this year. That’s just how things have gone this season.
by ElDuce on Sep 28, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andy LaRoche's day
He’s just reverting to his mean performance. Eventually every player does it.
by WstCstBucco on Sep 28, 2009 5:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
But I still don’t know what his mean performance is. He’s all over the place in MLB.
by Bernie6666 on Sep 29, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Today, the Bucs kept LA from clinching the West. With a win tomorrow, they can mathematically eliminate the Cubs from the wild card race.
Wouldn’t that be sad?
by WTM on Sep 28, 2009 5:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
IMO, the largest upside 3B/1B combination of the players we have now is still LaRoche/Alvarez. So hopefully LaRoche’s month is a sign of things to come for the sake of the franchise, and Andy doing it finally.
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 28, 2009 5:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“Duke couldn’t believe it when Russell lifted him following Chin-Lung Hu’s(notes) sacrifice fly, with a 10-run lead and only one batter to get for the complete game, and the fans let Russell have it. Even Dodgers third base coach Larry Bowa seemed surprised, saying something to Duke as he walked by.
"I wanted it pretty bad, I’m not going to lie," said Duke, who is arbitration-eligible and thus lost a complete game he could have used in negotiations."
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap?gid=290928123&prov=ap
I still can’t believe Russell pulled him….I mean honestly what kind of manager does that. He’s f—king 1 out away with a 10 run lead. Piece of f—king shit.
I hope Duke or someone showed their displeasure with the move. It was ludicrous and and unacceptable under the circumstances.
by dulciusEXasperis on Sep 28, 2009 7:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JR is FO's figurehead
No brown-nosin manager would do that.
by BadAndy on Sep 28, 2009 8:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Someone might want to check the Phantom Zone
because it looks like Bizzaro LaRoche escaped & destoyed the Dodgers. Outstanding!
However pulling Duke in the 9th was JR’s most classless move of the year. Inexcusable IMO.
by HoakyPoak on Sep 28, 2009 8:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hoaky Poak
Didn’t you want to dump both of the “LaRoche Sisters” back in April?
by patthatt on Sep 28, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have an excellent memory my friend
I shall promptly put my own foot in my mouth. Haha. But my disgust was always directed at Adam. After Andy shook off that slow start to the season, he won me over. I’m really feel that he can continue to improve next year. Thanks for calling me out!
by HoakyPoak on Sep 29, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, oh...
Posnanski is involved now! JR really did it now:
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/09/28/oh-i-get-it-no-wait-maybe-not/
by wickethewok on Sep 28, 2009 9:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, I suspect what happened was that Russell had his mind made up before the game started that Veal was going to get some work and was so inflexible that he had to stick Veal in at the first available excuse. He’s always more concerned about managing the bullpen workload than he is about making actual baseball moves.
by WTM on Sep 28, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
some work in>
Didn’t he realize, if Veal needed work, it shouldn’t be with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th, in a 10 run game?
Who does Russell think he is fooling?, don’t have to answer that, i have read all these comments, and have located the true lost minds of this board.
He needs work?, fine, bring him into pitch the 9th, from the start, not 2/3 into it.
Sorry excuse, for an even sorrier field manager.
I would be interested in hearing what the players, and the Fo really thought of this move, and what their reaction was to the bronx cheer Russell deservedly received.
Just a shame there wasn’t about 25,000 in the crowd, to really let this moron have it with both barrels.
If the chi sox let Ozzie go, Nutting should offer this guy a contract making 1 of the higest paid managers in the game.
He’s the guy a young team needs to move up the ladder.
He would be worth every penny, just his post game press conferences ALONE , would be priceless.
The PBC seems to be wary of spending $$$$ on free agents , so why not spend it on someone who would be more than worth it, and more than qualified to manage this team.
No doubt, that person is not in the Pirates dugout now.
If this wasn’t the final straw , seeing how Jrussell is so hated by the Pirates fans, the front office just doesn’t care, or is blind.
Get a manager with some fire, some energy, who knows the game.
Another incentive for Ozzie would be he gets to match wits against dicks like La Russa, Pinella, and Dusty Baker, 18x a year. That’s got to be an incentive.!
Hope next monday, the new culture of winning starts to take shape, and John Russell, is mercifully removed from the job which he has failed in, and miserably, i may add.
Think of 1 another manager in the big leagues that would have pulled the same stunt, on the last home game of the season, against a soon to be playoff team, that Russell did.
You can’t, case closed!!
by tom p on Sep 29, 2009 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, we need a manager with some fire!
Like the last manager to lead us to a WS win! Fiery old Chuck Tanner! I remember one time, ol’ “Piss-and-Brimstone” Tanner beat an ox to death with a sledgehammer in the clubhouse to get the team all riled up and ready to go kick some ass!
Or the last guy to do it before him, fiery old Bill McKechnie! I hear that in the Texas League, he shot an umpire just to watch him die!
With Ozzie’s fire, we’ll be unbeatable! Just like the 2009 White Sox!
by Vlad on Sep 29, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ovation
In soccer matches it’s a common thing for players who have performed well to be substituted before the end of the match in order to get an ovation from the crowd.
I remember in Robbie Fowler’s final game for Liverpool (second time around). He was substituted in the 88th minute and then almost immediately after that, Liverpool was awarded a penalty that Fowler would surely have been able to score in front of the Liverpool fans.
What does this have to do with the Pirate situation? Basically nothing.
But seriously the Pirates just won 11-1 against one of the best teams in baseball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EOZska_OLI
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Sep 28, 2009 10:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
but to be fair
Duke was the starting pitcher. It was his night. He goes out there to do his job. Tonight, he was exceptionally good. So let the man finish the job he started.
by dulciusEXasperis on Sep 28, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t have pulled him but my main point is that it doesn’t matter at all. As the Pirates won the game.
Will anyone out there think that Duke is a worse pitcher because he only got two complete games? This won’t affect his arbitration at all.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Sep 29, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is really annoying
Dejan has a story up entitled:
Russell’s yanking of Duke overshadows Pirates’ 11-1 romp
How exactly does Donnie Veal pitching to one batter overshadow a nice win like that? It seems to me it only does so if you care more about whining and screaming.
Even worse, Dejan suggests it was done to hurt Duke in his upcoming arbitration case. The idea is so ludicrous that, before this article went up, I actually considered posting the exact same conspiracy theory at the PBC Blog as a joke to see if I could get the birthers to take it seriously. Think about it — the idea apparently is that Nutting or Coonelly called down to the dugout to order Russell to take Duke out. What if Hudson doesn’t hit a triple, or gets thrown out on the fly ball? If they were so determined to keep Duke from getting a 4th complete game, why take that risk? Wouldn’t you just take him out after the 8th and claim you wanted to keep his innings count down?
by WTM on Sep 28, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The worst part is that isn’t just an article, that’s the official game story they’re running. How is it even possible that the main focus of the article isn’t LaRoche’s game? It was probably one of the top 10 offense performances in the league this year.
by ElDuce on Sep 28, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strangely enough
the complete game came up in our huddle at the ballpark and the erstwhile Stats Geek called it: “They’ll probably leave him in until the shutout’s gone.”
BTW, there couldn’t have been more than 2,000 people in the park, scattered hither and yon, and but they DID make a rowdy noise when JR pulled Zach. I thought about it for 30 seconds and wondered out loud, “Maybe Russell pulled him so he could get an O?” But we’d still have given him the O if he’d got one more out.
“Get Veal work”? For what reason?
Great day for Andy, though. Hope he hasn’t already peaked.
by bucdaddy on Sep 28, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
The crazy thing is DK bringing up the phantom arbitration argument himself. You really have to be a hard core “grassy knoller” to believe that – especially when Huntington was lobbying for Duke inclusion on the All-Star team, which does actually make a difference in raising a player’s salary.
by MarkInDallas on Sep 29, 2009 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The PG is giving people what they want.
It used to be hard news. Now, it’s lunatic conspiracy-mongering, plus the occasional reactionary op-ed.
I hope they’re proud.
by Vlad on Sep 29, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Headlines
Please realize that DK doesn’t write the headline.
Also, I stated in elsewhere. But I suspect Duke raised this issue. I suspect other players raised the issue.
DK could have been clearer than it came from players, if so. Otherwise, it looks like he is making the charge.
by Bernie6666 on Sep 29, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's true that writers don't write headlines, but...
…the headline is entirely consistent with the content of the story, as written. And the implied conspiracy, the worst part of the whole bit, was in the body and not the headline.
by Vlad on Sep 29, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Russell's decision to pull Duke
was damn stupid.
Case closed.
by patthatt on Sep 28, 2009 11:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
No good reason to pull him (baring injury).
by dulciusEXasperis on Sep 28, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's kind of a non-issue, if you ask me.
Which you didn’t, I know, but…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 28, 2009 11:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
cocktails
You’re always there with good advice, my friend.
I’ll shut up now.
by patthatt on Sep 29, 2009 12:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't singling you out, amigo.
Just saying, it got blown waaaayyyy out of proportion. By several people.
And, judging from the ensuing posts, the cockamamie story has legs…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 29, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a big deal clearly
It’s just baffling how you make that move. I’ll be the first to admit I get hung up over issues I disagree with.
by dulciusEXasperis on Sep 29, 2009 12:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's a good way of putting it
“Not a big deal … just baffling”
We were all on our feet doing that “one more out” thing, clapping and cheering, and then … watching Veal warm up = bafflement = deflation.
by bucdaddy on Sep 29, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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