Pirates Stave Off History with Victory Over Cardinals
For at least one more game, the Pirates delayed clinching their 17th consecutive losing season by beating the Cardinals today, 6-5.
I'm not sure I'm going to have anything too poetic to say about the record when it finally happens. We've certainly seen a lot of terrible baseball in the past 17 years, but as Dejan Kovacevic points out, this year's team isn't particularly embarrassing. They're certainly not in the top ten or twelve ugliest teams of the streak. They even have a number of downright competent players, and few outside the bullpen who don't really look like they belong in the majors. And if you look at what the Pirates are actually doing, as the New York Times does in this excellent article, it's clear that the new management's methods are distinctly different from those of its predecessors, and that the people in charge can present good arguments for what they're doing. It's not a very interesting story, really. The seeds for a 17th consecutive season were sown long ago by a management team that has since been dismissed.
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They were talking about the odds of that on Baseball Tonight
They it was around 55 billion to one.
I like those odds!
What about...
What are the chances of the Yankees not losing another game this year? They’re a lot better than the Pirates and their chances of not losing another game this year are probably close to 55 billion to one.
Interesting quote from the NYT article
"Neal kept talking about trying to build a team that is constantly competing for championships," said starter Ross Ohlendorf, who came from the Yankees last season and was 11-9 entering Saturday. "He wanted to let us know he was putting us in position to have a better team going forward. It’s exciting to play in a place like that."
It’s no coincidence that this is coming from the smartest guy on the team.
I thought the smartest person
on the team was JR?
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
Which team have you been watching?? The next original thought JR has during a game will be his first one. Mr By The Book.
sarcasm
Show me a guy whos afraid to look bad, and I'll show you a guy you can beat every time. -Lou Brock
There's a reason...
…that a lot of the stuff in The Book is in The Book. More often than not, it works.
Drawing for an inside straight may be satisfying when you make it, but it sucks as a long-term strategy.
by Vlad on Sep 7, 2009 10:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And some of the stuff in the book...
has been shown to be counter productive to success as well. Like having a .325 hitter bunt to set up a .225 hitter…and expecting the .225 hitter to knock in the run from 2nd.
In fairness to the Book
I don’t think it would recommend doing that either. The Book is too sac bunt-friendly, but I don’t think it’s a big fan of having your better hitters bunt.
The weirdest thing about JR is that he now has ~120 games’ worth of evidence that his regulars are bad bunters, yet he’s more bunt-happy than even your average old school manager.
Related question that came to me while listening to the game yesterday: who’s the most stat-savvy manager in baseball? I don’t just mean looking at percentages and matchups – that’s old news by now – but I mean hard core, SABR-grade stuff? I know no one’s perfect at it, because AFAIK everyone still uses a closer in the 9th most of the time.
Hard to say.
Acta was pretty stat-friendly, but he’s gone now. Maybe Francona?
Larry Dierker used to know this stuff backwards and forwards. I don’t know why nobody’s hired him to manage again.
For the record:
Russell is significantly LESS bunt-happy than the average manager. We’re tied for 14th in the NL in sac bunts, even with Milwaukee and ahead of only Philadelphia.
We know that it's probably going to be
another long season next year in terms of wins and losses, but I expect we’ll continue to see more signs of success for the future as we find out who can play and who can’t at the big league level, and more impact prospects move up through the system.
I still think Frank Coonelly and Neal Huntington have us on the right track. Whether Bob Nutting is truly interested in spending the money to allow us to win in a few years remains to be seen.
I remain hopeful, though.
What he said
What choice do we have, really?
"They're certainly not in the top ten or twelve ugliest teams of the streak"
Charlie keeps saying variations on this, and I have absolutely no idea why. I suppose he means that the talent on the field is less marginal than the days of Polcovich and Lou Collier, and that the starting pitching seems much more major league than the heyday of Jimmy Anderson and Joe “The Starter” Beimel.
But if you look at actual results, this is plainly the second or third worst team of the streak, and it only does that well because it featured 4-5 additional ML-grade talents for the first half of the season. Going by pythagorean record*, the worst team of the streak was, of course, 2001, with 62 expected wins (identical to actual wins). Behind that, you get last year’s team at 67 ExW, ‘94 at an abbreviated 65 win clip, and then every other team between 70 and 80. Right now, this team is expected to win 66 games; but that number is inflated by their pretty good April, May, and June, during which they racked up 36 wins (3-4 below ExW). Since then, they have played at a .316 pace, with an expected pace of .325. Over a 162 game season, that’s 53 wins. For the whole of this season, they will more likely win 63 than 66.
This is hardly surprising, since during that time they’ve had only 1 position player who is a no-doubt starter for every ML team (setting aside position), plus 2 starting pitchers who could start for any ML team. Now, I agree that there’s some talent on the field right now, and that the talent is on an upswing, but in terms of actual product? They’re terrible.
Last time I made this point, about a month ago, Charlie and WTM and others jumped on me about small sample size and all sorts of other things that seamheads like to say when the stats don’t show what they’d like. But here we are a month later, and the trend is exactly the same as it was then. Since July 1, over any significant sampling of games, this team has played in the .300s (if you cherry pick their peak, right after the late August winning streak, they had played .420 ball since July 1; 2 days before and 2 days later, they were back under .400).
I’m on board with NH’s plan, so this doesn’t faze me (too much). But I’m baffled as to why Charlie keeps insisting that we’re not seeing what’s right on front of our faces.
- Interestingly, the Pirates have underperformed their ExW almost every single season of the streak – except during the Leyland years, in which they generally overperformed, they’ve never exceeded ExW by more than a game, while they’ve often underperformed by 3-4 games.
I think that part of what Charie's getting at...
…is that this team generally doesn’t make you embarrassed to be watching them. The team isn’t good, but it’s usually not embarrassingly bad, either. You don’t have clown shows like Derek Bell or Pat Meares or Balvino Galvez or Matt Morris.
If they lose, it’s just by getting outplayed, not by getting humiliated in the bargain.
But that's hindsight
In 3 years, we will all be embarrassed that we thought that a guy who can’t even play RF could be an everyday 2B, and that a guy with a career .600 (or whatever) OPS could be a “solution” at SS, and that our best reliever was Jesse Chavez.
The last couple Littlefield years were bad, as were the last few Bonifay years, but otherwise we’ve had a lot of teams with ExW in the mid- to upper-70s. Some of those teams were larded with fading talents, but the ‘96-’99 teams, which averaged 77 ExWs, were full of young players and talented pitchers.
My point being that there were fewer “embarrassing” teams in the streak than I think you & Charlie and others are remembering. It was the withering futility that made it seem so bad and so hopeless. Well, the withering futility plus a few truly abysmal players (I won’t deny that – the worst guy on the August 31 roster* was probably better than the worst guy on most of those teams).
- Wait, was Salazar on that? He’s as talentless, if not as high profile, as anyone in the whole 17 years
None of that is even in the same ballpark.
There’s a huge difference between a guy who’s just untalented at 2B (like Young) and a guy who’s playing while so badly injured that he can’t even close his hand and make a fist (Meares). There’s a difference between getting a mediocre veteran SS as a throw-in on a deal to finish out the season after trading your incumbent starter, and giving the most expensive free agent contract in franchise history to a guy who then pulls “Operation Shutdown”.
Is it embarrassing to have Jesse Chavez pitching well in the bullpen? Or is it embarrassing to have one of your relievers break another one’s jaw in a gambling-induced rolling-around-on-the-ground fistfight in the lobby of the William Penn?
I know which one I’d pick.
Just to flesh out the Balvino Galvez thing a bit...
In 2001, Cam was so totally unprepared for our various injured starters’ rehabs that the frontrunner for our fifth starter’s job was Balvino Galvez. A guy who’d last pitched in the majors in 1986. A scout (quoted in a Gammons column) saw Galvez throwing in spring training and assumed that Galvez must’ve had a son who was signed by the Pirates, since it was so totally ludicrous that we’d bring this guy back from nowhere.
Galvez’s only real competition was Joe Beimel, coming off a mediocre season in A-ball, so Galvez pretty much had the spot locked up. Until he blew a pickoff throw in his last scheduled spring game. He got into a shouting match with Spin Williams, threw down his glove, stormed off the field, drove away from the stadium, and flew back to the Dominican Republic, never to be seen again in organized baseball.
What comparable embarrassment have we had this season?
I must admit that I was wondering
I was buying a fixer-upper and getting married that spring, so I’d missed/forgotten that saga.
Anyway, I’m not claiming that this is the most embarrassing/comically inept group – I’m saying it’s one of the very worst in terms of on-field performance, and the blandness off-field doesn’t actually make me feel one bit better (I think Yankees fans had no problem with the embarrassing off-field antics of the Bronx Zoo teams, don’t you?).
I think it’s special pleading to say that a 75-win team is more “embarrassing” than a 63-win team because it briefly fielded one particular bum.
I love the Marc Wilkins story
Especially the part where they were roommates and buddies – most of the time.
Blah blah
No matter how many games this team spends losing 2 for every game they win, some smug seamhead will say it’s too small a sample size, because they like what NH has done, and therefore the product on the field must be better than what they actually do.
Only 2 Pirates teams of the last 17 have put up a worse pythagorean record than this one. All of the evidence indicates that the current bunch are even worse than that.
I love that 60 games shows the exact same thing that 30 games did, and that (I’d be willing to bet) 80 games will, but it will always be too small a sample size, so you will never be wrong. I’m so glad that sabermetrics has banished irrational and emotional arguments from baseball.
Isn't using
Pythagorean records a bit “seamhead-ish?”
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 8, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
That's my point
I’m not some yinzer (as people here like to call them) arguing that Xavier Nady was the best RF since Clemente and that we should have kept him. I’m using advanced stats and SABR-influenced thinking to make my arguments. But when people who otherwise swear by those methods disagree with me, they rarely argue back on stats – they just talk about “small sample size” and go back to whatever claim they want to make.
Just as Vlad did elsewhere today in saying that, because UZR isn’t very reliable before 1000 games, NyjMo’s excellent UZR shouldn’t have been considered evidence – at all – that he was a good defender before this season. The evidence was limited, but pointed in a direction – that a light-hitting speedster could be valuable – that seamheads as a group dislike, so they turn a blind eye to the stats. Same exact deal with GJones.
I have no problem with sabermetrics and the use of advanced statistics. I have a problem with orthodoxy, whether it says that AVG is more important than OBP or that 28-y.o.s never outperform their past.
But when people who otherwise swear by those methods disagree with me, they rarely argue back on stats
I don’t know how well you’ve paid attention (although it’s not seeming likely that the answer is “very”), but I’ve had some pretty long, drawn out discussions with dtoddwin, for example (whom I could probably count on one hand the number of posts he’s made that I’ve agreed with), in which I had absolutely no problem going out and doing my research. Mainly because dtoddwin does not seem such a hand-wavingly smug self-martyr. In fact, he is downright likable! I also spent my Labor Day weekend building a Pitchf/x database to hopefully do some more of my own research. (Watch out, Hitman Easler!) So if you want to stereotype somebody as a dittohead, you can find somebody else.
60 games is not a significant sample, no matter how many times you like to state that this is so. Even 162 games, as evidenced by the number of teams that play above or below their pythagorean (hint: almost all of them every single year) or the number of Brady Anderson or Carl Pavano one-year wonders, is often not even significant enough. It’s possible that a 30 or 60 game sample as something meaningful to say. It’s more likely that any meaning is being obscured by noise. Just because Vlad’s lucky coin turns heads 15 out of the first 20 times doesn’t mean it’s rigged or that he has some special coin-flipping skill.
I think perhaps the greatest lesson sabermetrics has to teach about baseball, sports, or even life in general, is just how much the events of our day-to-day lives really are influenced by random chance (at worst) or something to buried in noise as to be indistinguishable (at best). I think this is really why traditionalists hate sabermetrics so much: sabermetrics says that sometimes, we just don’t know and can’t know. The traditionalist can’t accept this, and needs to credit the new pitching coach or the catcher’s “new attitude” or some such. Which really isn’t all the different from crediting our lucky underwear or our pre-game fried chicken dinner.
Sometimes, credit can’t be assigned. Just because something happened does not, ultimately, mean that somebody is actively responsible for it.
I have no problem with challenging so-called sabermetric “orthodoxy” (which is a funny term itself, given how evolving our knowledge is). I have a problem with joining and criticizing the debate while not understanding the terms of that debate.
Just for the record...
I never called anyone “smug.”
(Just so I don’t get pulled into anything.)
;-)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 8, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions

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