Payroll: Still A Problem
Joe Posnanski's excellent Sports Illustrated article about the Pirates' epic losing streak makes an important point that people like me are guilty of underemphasizing:
If you are a high school junior in Pittsburgh, then you have not been alive for a Pirates winning season. If you are a recent college graduate in Kansas City, you have no earthly way of knowing what it means for the local baseball team to make the playoffs. If you are young in Cincinnati and Baltimore, you will hear from older folk that you live in one of the best baseball towns in America -- but there's no reason why you should believe it. And even though they have not built up those long streaks yet, things are looking pretty hopeless for the moment in Washington, San Diego and even Oakland, where the A's are working on their third consecutive losing season.
Is this just because these teams are poorly run? Or is it harder to turn around a bad team these days? Everyone has an opinion, but it's probably a bit of both. People are so sick of the big revenue/small revenue talk that they have decided simply to ignore it. Talking about revenues and payrolls is so 1999. Moneyball came out, the Marlins won a World Series, teams like Tampa Bay, Colorado and Milwaukee have made nice runs, and it's enough to get people to say, "See, if you are smart and creative you can win with a small payroll."
Maybe so. The problem is: There just aren't that many smart and creative people out there. And many of them might like to work for the Yankees and Red Sox -- after all, they pay better.
The truth is, there just aren't as many ways for a Pittsburgh or Kansas City or Cincinnati to turn things around.
This is, unfortunately, true. In the past, I and a lot of other fans have downplayed the small-payroll problem because it didn't make sense to give the Pirates an out when they were so badly run that they would have been losers in any economic system. I still maintain that the Bucs' current streak of losing seasons was due primarily to their own incompetence and not due to the deck being stacked against them.
The fact, though, is that the system is unfair, and that no matter how loose Bob Nutting might get with his money, he's never going to have enough to compete with the Yankees or Red Sox. And now that, in contrast to fifteen years or so ago, most teams are run intelligently, it's tougher for the Pirates to find an opening, even in a weak division.
This doesn't mean that the Pirates can't compete, or that there's no hope. In the near future, things almost certainly will get better, and I think it's pretty likely that Frank Coonelly and Neal Huntington will end up breaking the streak. But what will happen if they do?
Take the Brewers, for example. They've mostly done things the right way, building intelligently through the draft and raising payroll once they got close to contention. And where has it gotten them? In 2005 they finished .500; in 2007 they won 83 games; and last year, they finally made it to the playoffs for the first time since 1982. That's great. This year, though, they're five games under .500, they've got a bloated payroll now after making a few questionable decisions about signing veterans to complement their core, and they're about to get more expensive as their young stars inch toward free agency. They can't be more than a year or two more competitive baseball before they undergo a rebuilding process of their own. And that's a team that's mostly been well run the past several years.
If the Pirates' next six or seven years unfolded like the Brewers' last six or seven, I'd probably be thrilled. But that doesn't make it right. The fact is that it's extremely hard for a team like the Brewers, or the Pirates, or the Royals, even if they do what they should. We shouldn't use this fact to wave away any poor decisions the Pirates might make, but I don't think we should accept it either.
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small market teams.
the problem in baseball is not that teams like the yankees and red sox can buy world series caliber teams. the problem is that small markets like pittsburgh and kansas city simply cannot compete. that being said, i still think that pittsburgh has wasted an awful lot of prime first round draft picks. and when was the last time we had a suprise pick come out of the late rounds? small markets will never compete because they have to constantly let players go when they reach a certain payroll level. and last i checked, nobody out there wants to buy a team to break even or lose money.
Good points
I ran a statistical analysis (regression) a few years ago and saw that salary predicted 50 percent of a team’s wins.
That means that the other half is explained by management, luck and some other variables.
Consequently, there is not a large margin of error for small-market teams.
At the same time, your point about the horrendous decision making by DL is on target. Clearly, the Pirates would be better off today if you didn’t have a GM who showed disdain toward the draft and Latin American market and passed on Howard for Benson deals (or made Young for Herges ones).
I think your Brewers analogy is correct. The Brewers are a reasonably well-run franchise and made the playoffs last year. But they also make mistakes. Example: I’m still baffled why the team didn’t make more of an effort to get starting pitching this year. Their rotation didn’t look good in April. It looks even worse now. They would have been a wild-card contender if they had traded some of their prospects for starting pitching.
But the Pirates are going to have to continue to spend heavily in the draft, make smart investments internationally, make smart trades, scout well, increase payroll and get real lucky to compete long term.
The large market teams just don’t trade prospects to win a World Series anymore. Moreover, everyone essentially has the same statistical reports. You can’t use that to your advantage anymore.
They would have been a wild-card contender if they had traded some of their prospects for starting pitching.
I’ve been thinking that the upward trend in valuation of real prospects may have gone too far in recent years… based on this report, it seems neal huntington is open to the idea that prospects are now over-valued…
to me, this opens some interesting questions, such as: When is it better to keep a veteran player who might walk away for nothing rather than to deal him for “prospects?” and
how does this valuation impact the calculus for determining when the team is ready to add pieces with an eye to contending?
by Captain Easychord on Sep 8, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Great questions
I agree. I wonder, for example, if the Pirates would have been better of keeping Grabow and offering him arbitration than trading him to the Cubs.
The compensation system, I think, means that you should only trade a veteran if you get a solid package. Not the DL salary dump deals. I’m not sure if what we got from the Cubs outweighs the picks we could have gotten if Grabow had turned down arbitration. I think they did okay, though.
Also, I think you ask a great question about adding “pieces.” TB kept its prospects last year instead of getting Jason Bay. Did it cost the Rays a World Series? Maybe. Milwaukee kept its prospects this year instead of getting starting pitching. Did it cost them a wild card? Maybe.
If it’s so hard for a team like the Rays to win a series, it seems they should have given up the prospects for Bay.
I think it’s a big assumption that Grabow gets signed in the offseason. Multiple Type A relievers had trouble finding homes last year because teams didn’t consider them worth the picks.
by thegreatchris on Sep 9, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Good points
Agreed. That’s why I said it’s a balancing process. I think the Cubs deal probably was close to the picks and didn’t have the risks of him accepting (or a team not signing him). But clearly, one of the DL lessons, is that you offer arbitration.
I can’t count the number of times DL dumped someone who would have turned down arbitration and given us extra draft choices.
Prospects for Vets
One sure way of ending the cycle of continuous talent coming up to the majors from the minors is by trading your valuable prospects for a push at the series. Based on their stated objectives, I think NH and FC would act the same way as Tampa did last year in that position. They would think it better to compete for the following 3-5 years even if they cannot win it all at any point.
by wietersforpresident on Sep 9, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
So how big is Tampa's window?
So they just missed last year. They’re not even in the hunt this year (and wouldn’t be even if the Yanks weren’t playing like monsters). Kazmir is gone. I don’t know their roster well enough to know who’s gone in the next 2 years, but the group that came within a whisker of the Series last year is only getting 1 or 2 more bites at the apple. Then what?
The answer is, they keep being competitive thanks to the prospects they didn’t trade for Bay. But the trouble with that plan – as we all know – is that prospects are just that: prospective talent. Even once they’re at AAA, the majority still don’t turn into long-term, successful MLers.
Point being, Tampa may never get another chance. We all say here that we don’t want just one season above .500, we want a competitive team. But do Tampa fans want one near-miss then a bunch of seasons around .500? Better than what they had, I suppose, but I’m not sure that their future is anything to get excited about.
All that said, TB is in the completely different world of the AL East, where they could win 85 games and be in a distant 3rd place. As the Cards have shown, if you put out a solid team every year, you’ll be in the NL Central race nearly every year, and get your share of division championships (some of these Cards teams have had unbelievable lineups, but others have won despite pitching that would get completely exposed in the AL East).
Bay/TB
TB overvalued its prospects and, I think, hurt its chances of winning a World Series. Would Bay have won it for the Rays? Probably not. But he would have been an enormous improvement in the lineup.
Also, I disagree that trading Wade Davis and Reid Brignanc would have caused long-term harm to the franchise. They are good prospects. But they are not elite ones.
Not trading two good prospects for a chance at a World Series doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, particularly if you are TB.
As you suggest, TB has a small window. And it’s quickly closing in the AL East.
Good point
I understand not trading Cutch/Alvarez types for a pennant drive, but, as you say, Davis and Brignanc aren’t those guys. Good example of overvaluing prospects.
Davis has great stuff. That’s why they aren’t too concerned about getting rid of Kazmir. Trading Edwin Jackson definitely hurt them, though, at least for this year.
- Gorkys'nBeans
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 9, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Vlad
I think Davis is a good, but not great, prospect. I’d rate him a B/B+ prospect.
I can see not trading David Price.
But Davis? I think he’s a replaceable prospect and someone you give up to make a run at a World Series.
As JRoth said, he’s not Cutch or Alavarez. He’s the next level down.
Sickels compared him to Gil Meche. I’d give up a Gil Meche prospect to go for a World Series every year.
Why do you assume Bay would've won the WS for Tampa?
They lost 4 games to 1. The probability of Wade Davis becoming a superstar is greater than the probability that Jason Bay would’ve won 3 World Series games for the Rays last year.
All he actually would have had to do
is win one of the three games they lost for them to have a shot.
Just a clarification:
Here is what I said:
“TB overvalued its prospects and, I think, hurt its chances of winning a World Series. Would Bay have won it for the Rays? Probably not. But he would have been an enormous improvement in the lineup.”
I don’t think Bay would have won the WS for Tampa. But I think the Rays would have been much better with him in the lineup than Baldelli. I also think that they would be much closer to the wild card this year with Bay than Pat Burrell.
I don’t think Davis is going to become a superstar and that if I were running the Rays I would have swung the deal.
Two B level prospects for a reasonably priced Jason Bay is the type of trade I think small-market teams have to do when they are in the hunt.
I like Davis and wish he had become a PIrate. But I think he’s going to become a two or three pitcher, not a superstar.
Baseball Prospectus had him as the #29 prospect going into the season. That seems a reasonable price for Bay.
It's subjective, I guess.
Going into 2008, BA rated Davis as the #17 prospect in all of baseball. A B+ from Sickels would probably put him in that range as well – I don’t think John usually gives out more than a dozen or so A/A- grades in any given year. And at the time the Bay trade went down, Davis was striking out a batter an inning as a 22-year-old in AAA, so his stock couldn’t have slipped all that much.
Prospects are subjective, so if you had him a little lower than that, I woudn’t kill you for it. But I can understand Tampa not wanting to deal him away, and I don’t know that they were necessarily wrong for doing so.
there’s an implicit assumption that when the time is right, NH will be making deals with an eye to improving the team at the major league level… I don’t see it as a question of “if” the pirates trade prospects for immediate help, but rather a question of “when”… and it’s the question of “when” that has me curious…
when is the team close enough to winning in order to make this push? do they do it if they’re forecast for 84 wins? 87 wins? 90 wins? 95 wins? sure, this may depend on the circumstances of a given year’s standings and whatnot, but to me, this is a central test of how dedicated ownership is to putting a winning team on the field… if they aren’t going to add pieces to anything less than a team that forecasts to 100 wins, then I’m not sure how invested they really are… (alternatively, trading prospects to bolster a 75 win team is madcap for entirely other reasons)…
but if NH sees prospects as overvalued, whatever that forecast figure is presumably gets dropped by a couple wins… after all, to say prospects are overvalued is simply to say that they’ll bring back more immediate help than they should…
by Captain Easychord on Sep 9, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
staying one step ahead
I agree – and have posted here before – that prospectß are now over valued. It will correct itself in time, but the task NH faces is to jump on whatever aspect is now undervalued. I fear that it amy be the non-elite big league free agent.
Good day.
by Uncle Nate on Sep 9, 2009 10:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Nate
I think you, and NH, are right.
Target those former top prospects whose stock has dropped.
Target the mid-range free agents.
But right now, the price for top prospects is way overvalued. I’m sure the Rays wish they had given up Davis and Brignac for Bay.
The Brewers
also had two key players they were counting on (Hardy and Hall) suddenly collapse, and join the already awful Jason Kendall as black holes in their lineup. So don’t necessarily blame the pitching.
You make good points ...
But I also think the rotation was bad. Gallardo was the best SP the Brewers had and he’s a #3. Occasionally, he’s better than that. But he walks way too many people. I don’t think you can seriously expect to compete with Suppan, Bush, Parra and Looper.
In fact, I like the Pirates’ rotation much better.
I agree that starting pitching wasn’t the only problem. But I’m puzzled why they didn’t trade one of their stud hitters for a young SP.
Pittsburgh is also a "small market"
in football and hockey. The last I checked, they are defending champions in both. The big difference? The NHL has a hard cap and hard floor — both tied to revenue. The NFL has a model revenue sharing environment along with a cap. Until the owners in MLB gut it out with the union, we will continue to have an uneven playing field. Think of how much better things would be today had ownership gutted it out on through 1995. Without something similar to what the leagues mentioned above have, Milwaukee or Minnesota is the best we can hope for. The insidious part is that this system is so shortsighted. Just how high might they grow revenue by realistically including more than 10 out of 30 cities in the dream? In the NFL right now, fans in at least 20 cities think they have a chance. To me that looks like a smarter business model — a model you would think both owners and players ought be interested in.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
However....
one of the more interesting things in the NFL is that the CBA is about to end and it appears the salary cap is ending it’s run…unless the owners/players get together and hammer something out.
So that will be the next sticking point.
The NFL
also benefits from having perhaps the weakest union of the four major sports. There’s even a current lawsuit that claims the NFLPA conspired with EA Sports to cheat retired players out of money. Can you imagine Marvin Miller trying anything like that?
It’s also worth noting that in the NFL if you sign a guy to a long-term contract and he sucks the next year you can just terminate his contract and dump him and owe him nothing. It’s why the players try to go for such huge bonuses up front. Not at all like what happens in baseball with Matt Morris type deals, where if the guy sucks so bad you have to cut him you’re still on the hook for $10 million.
The non-guaranteed status of contracts in the NFL is an under-emphasized point. Small market teams in MLB are deterred from dedicating large portions of their smaller payroll to high-priced players because they can’t afford an albatross. The NFL doesn’t really have albatrosses because the contracts aren’t guaranteed.
One of the problems with comparing the NFL and MLB is that the majority of NFL revenue comes from national TV contracts. That is the money that is shared, and it basically pays all the players’ salaries, right up to the cap. No matter how big your stadium is and how much you sell the tickets for, there’s only 8 home games a year. In baseball, the majority of income comes from local attendance. Revenue sharing makes sense in the NFL because the income is inherently nation and better national balance means better games and better ratings. Truly evening the playing field in baseball would mean that the people who are paying the big salaries (the people of New York, Boston, Chicago, etc) wouldn’t see as much winning baseball.
If the NFL does away with the salary cap (and more importantly, the salary floor) for good, a couple teams (e.g. Bills, Jaguars) will become “small market teams” with probably about 60% of the previous salary cap, while a couple of teams (Giants, Cowboys, Redskins) will spend maybe 130%. There just isn’t the money to outspend weaker teams 5:1 as long as the current revenue sharing deal is in place, which the CBA has no say in.
charity standing orders
NFL
I know next year is an uncapped year in the NFL and a lot of writers are making a big deal out of it.
I just don’t think it’ll be the financial windfall players expect.
Moreover, I have no doubt the owners will give the players an ultimatum. Impose a new CBA. Lock the players out.
And yes, they will play replacement games again if they have to. The NFL owners don’t play around. They are also much more united than MLB owners.
One possible flaw in that plan
is the new league (UFL?) which, if it survives a season, could rush in to scoop up locked-out players who aren’t under contract. It would help that league immensely if it could put an NFL-level product on the field at the same time the NFL was fielding teams of unemployed Arenaball players.
Bucdaddy
That’s a good point. The only thing I’d add is that I just don’t see the new league having big money owners.
If you don’t have owners with deep pockets and a TV contract, I’m not sure how the new league competes.
Moreover, can the new league really offer what the NFL would?
Doubt it
To argue against myself, I wonder how many NFL fans, as I think it was Seinfeld said, “root for laundry.” Would you instantly root for the New York UFL team just because it signed Eli Manning, or would you still root for the Giants? I seriously doubt 98% of Steelers fans really give a damn about who’s in the uniforms, probably couldn’t name more than a dozen players anyway, certainly wouldn’t recognize most of them on the street. They just want to tailgate, get wasted and slur, “Here we go, Still-erzzzz, here we go.”
So maybe that’s a moot issue.
a model owners and players ought to be interested in
I’d argue that the small market owners, and only the small market owners, would be interested. Why would Boston and NY want to share their enormous cable deals with the Pirates and the Nationals? Why would they want to level the playing field? Why would players want their earning potential capped?
I don’t think anything will change until a small-market franchise goes under – and not an expansion team.
I'm not so sure
First, revenue sharing has been shown to increase the money available to everyone, not just the small market owners. It helps mid-sized markets. It even helps large markets.
Obviously Boston and NY see the immediate financial loss of sharing the money. But if they look at other leagues, they’ll see that they get the money back through more money being generated by everyone. Revenue sharing leads to higher attendance, for example.
As for the players, remember that they are also in the haves and have nots. Yes, those with the Yanks have no incentive to push for change. But there are only so many jobs with large market teams.
If you play for a mid—market or small-market franchise, it clearly would seem to me that a new system would benefit you.
SubLime
Great points. The system in place benefits only the large market teams and a few elite players. The overwhelmingly majority of players don’t get Teixeira $s, even if they have comparable statistics.
If you had real revenue sharing and a hard cap, you’d see more revenue being generated. More teams competing means attendance increases. It means higher TV ratings. It means more players earn a higher salary. Just look at the NHL, for example.
Yes, the owners should have gutted out the 1995 strike. I really think if they hadn’t made a legal error—trying to negotiate a CBA while declaring an impasse and imposing their system—they would have gotten one. Players seemed ready to cross the line.
The fans were irritated at the players and were ready to go see replacement games.
But I doubt the owners will go for it now. The problem is the small market teams can essentially make a profit without selling a ticket. They also know that it’s nearly impossible to compete with the large market teams. Why spend if it doesn’t matter?
Good post, Charlie
Sort of an aside, but worth noting – those almost-good late 90s teams (avg. ExW 76) were in fact a few good FAs away from winning and a decent shot st the division. Ina world where ownership had anything like Yankees money, they could have picked up a couple topline players and been within reach. It’s comical now to look back at FA signings from back then (when $9M got you Albert Belle at his peak).
Point being not that they could or should have done such things, but that in a more equitable system, they could have made a grab for the brass ring. Instead, Shawon Dunstan was the most they could imagine bringing in (actually, instead they tried to get over the top with second- and third-tier FAs, because that’s what they could afford).
by JRoth95 on Sep 9, 2009 12:47 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
A bit more
Because I suspect that you all will think I’m crazy or stupid for saying the above:
The dynastic Yankees teams were famously homegrown, right? Jeter, Pettite, Posada, Bernie, Rivera? But around them were passels of outside talent: Martinez, O’Neill, Knoblauch, Clemens, Girardi, Justice*…. I’m sure 1 or 2 of those guys were brought in trades, but most of them were FA signings.
We as fans of a small market team think in terms of “establish a talented core and then bring in 1 or 2 FAs to fill critical holes.” But the wealthy teams don’t need nearly as big a core of talent – all they need is a handful of position players, the basis of a rotation, and, hopefully, a couple great bullpen arms. The rest they can buy.
In some sense the yinzers weren’t wrong – Steinbrenner could have taken the 2008 team, added $50M of FAs, and had a contender (that team had legit – if not top-flight – ML talent at 4-5 positions plus 2 starters and 2-3 relievers). It was just never realistic to think that anyone who owned the Pirates, with their non-global revenue stream, could have done so.
- Not to mention Charlie Hayes, Dale Sveum, Luis Soto, and Enrique Wilson – they were all trades, IIRC, but it’s still bizarre, isn’t it?
One thing that the Pirates will do to try to prolong the lives of their prospects as Pirates – Andrew McCutchen being the example – they will not begin the clock on anyone until they are positive they can come in and NOT struggle. You will see them come up in June, where we get 6 1/2 years of control.
I think you will see the same thing with Pedro, Lincoln, Tabata, etc. It’s a smart move and something I think is done consciously.
And, though it may or may not matter, not bringing Clement up (oblique?) gives the Pirates an extra year of control of him.
None of the other smaller market teams have really done this.
Did you all see/hear
Cutch apparently told Rocco (or told someone else and Rocco was quoting) that he has absolutely no interest in signing away seasons, whether arbitration or FA? He is going to get very expensive very fast. I’ve never been one to moan, “Oh, they’ll trade away McCutchen first chance they get,” but, unless he has a change of heart, I don’t see any way we keep him even 5.5 seasons. If he plays the way we all expect, he’ll average $10M/year for his arbitration years. I don’t see how this team spends that much on 1 player – not once Pedro and Lincoln and Alderson and Tabata reach their arbitration years.
I wouldn’t expect any prospect to sign away seasons with the Pirates approach. They keep players in the minors to prevent their clock from starting as stated above, and if they do lock in a player they may just use that as bait to get more/better prospects in a trade. It’s really the only choice the players have if they want what is coming to them.
Agreed
That, to me, was the big takeaway of the McLouth trade. What player would give years away to a frankly dishonest FO (and there’s no question they were dishonest to Nate in their representations about his future with the team).
That said, signing away years has never made much sense from the players’ POV – arbitration is so lucrative, and $400k isn’t that paltry (I know that they’re under a lot of social pressure to spend beyond that, but still…).
In theory...
…this team should easily be able to support a Cincinnati/Milwaukee type payroll in the $70M range, if they have players on hand who are worth spending that kind of money on (and McCutchen should easily qualify as such if he keeps it up).
They won’t keep everybody, but what team does? They’ll sign the ones they want to hold, and try to trade the rest for value.
But my point about Cutch specifically is that he will cost the Bucs close to $10M starting in 2012 (right?). That’s fine for that year, as the rest of the coming players will all be at league minimum. But if he’s at $15M by 2013, with Lincoln, Morton, & Alderson all in their first years of arbitration, plus (presumably) an FA or two…. That’s a lot of payroll in just a few guys. And that’s not even looking at Pedro’s first arbitration year – you could easily get to $45M for just 6 guys in 2013. Add 12 guys at league minimum for another $5M, and 7 guys in the $2M range – that’s $65M without a single FA, and almost a quarter of it to one guy.
I just don’t see it. They’ll keep him if it looks like 2013 could really be their year, but otherwise he’s gone before or during that year.
Which is fine – that’s how things are now – but it it’s sad. Remind me not to buy his jersey (or Pedro’s).
2013 is a long way off.
Odds are that at least one of Lincoln, Morton, and Alderson won’t pan out, for example. And if our 2009 and 2010 drafts turn out well, those guys will be up filling minimum-salary roles on that team and freeing up payroll for the big-ticket items.
That's not a warm thought
So our best hope to keep Cutch is that some of the other guys don’t work out?
I’m not going to waste time speculating in detail about a 2013 rotation, but here’s what we know: either it will have reasonably-successful (and thus expensive) versions of Ohlie, Morton, Hart, Lincoln, and/or Alderson (all of them arb-eligible), or it will have fewer of those guys and more raw rookies (will Owens really be contributing in 2013?), or it will not be very good at all. This year’s draft was the last realistic chance for productive 2013 pitchers to be picked (barring a Gooden or a Lincecum).
So either we have a ~$20M rotation in 2013, or we don’t have a good rotation. To me, those two possibilities cover about 80% of the likelihood, and either way I don’t see keeping Cutch at $15M.
The other thing to hope for, of course, would be bad play by Cutch for 1-2 years between now and then, to keep his salary down. Anyone care to root for that?
The whole point of keeping Cutch off the major-league roster
until June was so that this year wouldn’t count towards his arbitration eligibility. Accordingly, his first year of eligiblity will be 2013, not 2012. I still expect them to do the same thing with Pedro and see him arriving June 2011.
I'm just saying...
…that demographically speaking, some of the prospects we have right now aren’t going to make it. It sucks, but it’s the way these things work.
If we have too many great players to afford them all, that’s kind of a nice problem to have, isn’t it?
I don’t think it’d be all that surprising for a 2010 pick to be pitching in the bigs in 2013, particularly if we’re talking about a college player. There are a fair number of 2006 (and even 2007) draftees established in ML rotations this year: Joba, Lincecum, Kershaw, Hochevar, Scherzer, Masterson, Latos, Price, Detwiler, Tommy Hunter, etc.
What I mean about draftees is that it would take an extraordinary draftee to be a contributing starter on a playoff contender in less than 3 years from getting picked. I don’t doubt that someone could make it; what I doubt is that he’d be starting on a good team (some of the guys you list are lights-out talents – obviously if we get one of those, it changes the equation, which is why I referenced Gooden and Lincecum; but those are very rare guys).
Part of the reason I feel this way is that we ostensibly have pitching – if only 3 of the guys currently in the org are contributing starters in 2013, that looks like a disaster to me.
Anyway, these details are all a bit moot if 2013 is only Cutch’s first arbitration year – 2014 and 2015 are way too far away to think about, let alone forecast. Still, I’m just going to bear in mind from here on out that Cutch is a short-timer here, and enjoy it while it lasts.
Lincoln, Morton, and Alderson...
…aren’t the only internal options, either. Maybe if one of them busts, we’ll see Uviedo in the rotation, or Chris Aure, or one of the kids we got in the trade with Seattle.
I knew there were more deeper in the system
Has anyone discussed who seems more likely to right himself, Hart or Morton? I think Morton has better stuff (?), but they’re suffering from the exact same problems right now.
Is it Ian Snell Disease, Gorzellany Disease, or simply Pirates Pitcher Disease?
I don't think Morton's doing all that badly.
His FIP is right around 4.5, which is a solid mid-rotation starter. He just hasn’t gotten much defensive support – .665 DER on an 18% LD rate. It’d be nice to have him throw more strikes, but even if he doesn’t, he profiles in the rotation.
Hart has a few issues. He’s had some bad luck with us, making him look worse than he is, but he’s still not pitching like a guy who should be starting right now. Morton can get away with 4-ish BB/9 because he gets more GBs, allows fewer LDs, and misses more bats. I think that in the ideal Pirates roster of the future, he’s a pen guy.
Hart and Morton don’t have any new issues with the Pirates that didn’t come up before on their former teams. I agree with Vlad that Morton is doing well.
And Hart spent over half of this season in the bullpen. So while the transition to starter has been questionable, it’s hard to rule out the possibility that he could have a season like Ohlendorf has this year (after posting a 6+ ERA for the Pirates in 2008, IIRC) after working in a consistent role.
- Gorkys'nBeans
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 10, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, Ohlie last year only had 5 starts. So his 2008 line doesn’t mean that much.
- Gorkys'nBeans
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 10, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
If Milwaukee can give Jeff Suppan $12.75 million this year, the Pirates should be able to do McCutchen at $15M per if it comes to that.
- Gorkys'nBeans
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 10, 2009 5:17 AM EDT up reply actions
But everyone thinks Fielder is gone next year. Anyway, they had to do something in the wake of CC and Bush leaving – their window was closing, and it made sense to spend a little to try to make another run. Didn’t work, but it was a good shot. I suspect they retool the next couple years (maybe stick together next spring then, if they aren’t in the thick of things, deal Fielder and a pitcher for some near-term prospects to help them in 2012 or whatever).
It still takes some wishcasting to figure that Cutch in a few years will be as valuable as Fielder and his run production now. We’ll see…
- Gorkys'nBeans
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 10, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
No, Cutch doesn’t equal Fielder; but they’re talking $20M through arbitration for him next year. And if Cutch plays the next 3 years as good and better than this one, then he’ll be rewarded richly at his very first arbitration hearing – I’ll be shocked if he doesn’t go well above $5M the first time (assuming consistency – no guarantee, of course).
Just checked
PF projects to 140 wRC in 590 ABs this year; Cutch, with the same number of ABs, projects at 96, which is almost the exact same pace as PF’s rookie year.
Now, Cutch doesn’t have Fielder’s power, so he’ll never approach that 140. But he’s worth 10-20 more runs in the field as well.
So no, I don’t think he’ll get Prince money, but I think he’ll get real expensive real fast.
[BTW, when I said $20M next year, I meant the year after, the next time he hits arbitration – he’s currently on a 2-yr, $18M contract, and a lot of people think he’ll be sent away next year so Milwaukee doesn’t have to face the huge jump in his last arbitration year]
He’ll get expensive (though I’m not ready to say he’ll be worth more than Fielder by any measure). But the middle of the order bat is always going to command more attention and money on the market. That’s the way it is. If Alvarez lives up to the hype, then he would be a similar situation to Fielder. But it’s way too early to worry about that.
- Gorkys'nBeans
by Adam Reynolds on Sep 10, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
If you are a pirates fan
I gotta give you huge props. There are no fake Pirates fans right now! I am a sox fan since the mid-80s and for 20 years my team was the definition of heartbreaking failure. You guys rock and when your day comes it will be all the sweeter!
You play to win the game!
on payroll
I understand that wealthy teams can throw money at free agents, resign top talent, and take more chances (waste/overspend) on players not worth it, but the draft is cheap, the daft is really, really cheap.
spending $15 million every year on the draft is going to put you in the top 5. No team is really priced out of the draft, and it is very difficult to win without some of that talent coming from within the organization.
Not....
a particularly promising picture,either way. Maybe the Marlins go-for-broke-once-every-five-or-so-years is the way?
Small market teams do seem to be able to be RELATIVELY competitive though,if run properly. Not perfectly,but properly.

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