What Kind of Owner Would Mario Lemieux Make?
by Charlie on Jan 30, 2010 4:19 PM EST
122 comments
I'm sure many of you know quite a lot about the Penguins, but this post is directed toward readers like myself who might not. I didn't know enough to put into perspective this morning's Post-Gazette story about Pens co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle offering to buy the Pirates, so I asked someone who does: "FrankD," who runs SB Nation's Pensburgh. Here are his answers to my questions:
BD: Is it correct that the Penguins' team salary was, for the most part, below the NHL average during the years between Lemieux and Burkle's purchase of the team and the NHL going to a salary cap? If so, why was this? Were there hockey reasons? Financial reasons?
FrankD: At the time Burkle and Lemieux's purchase in 1999, they were definitely operating on a low budget. When Lemieux came out of retirement in 2000, they couldn't afford to keep certain guys around. More specifically, Jaromir Jagr. He was sent packing off to Washington, although there was a lot of speculation at the time that Jagr was all for testing the free agent market. He had a nice payday in DC but by that time it didn't matter much for the Pens. There's no way they could've matched his ridiculous seven-year, $77 million deal. That season they failed to make the playoffs and had to cut the salary of Alexei Kovalev and Robert Lang as well. So yeah, the salary was an issue at the time. I wish I could give you exact numbers that the Pens had to work with at the time, but I don't really know what they were. All I know is that this looked liked the beginning of the end for them until Lemieux ultimately resurrected them with the acquisition of draft picks, which ultimately brought in the young, talented group of guys playing for the Pens right now.
BD: In your opinion, how would Lemieux do as the owner of a team like the Pirates, given that Major League Baseball does not have a cap?
FrankD: It's hard to say. I don't think he'd step up and try to buy big-time players along the likes of George Steinbrenner or anything, but the guy hates to lose. But to be honest I don't think Lemieux's all that savvy when it comes to baseball knowledge (I could be wrong of course, but I'm going to at least believe I'm right), so chances are it's going to really come down to the Pirates' GM presenting the case for certain players. With the Penguins, GM Ray Shero makes a lot of go-get-em decisions when it comes to locking up players for the future or signing some low-key, high-contributing players. Overall I just get the impression that he's intent on winning, but given unlimited spending potential I don't think he would triple the payroll or anything.
BD: Given that the Pirates are a young organization in the process of rebuilding, do you think Lemieux would be likely to want to continue that process, or would he want to make a splash right away by acquiring veteran talent?
FrankD: Again, hard to say. If anything the guy has proven that he isn't afraid to take on challenges, as seen with his purchase of the Penguins during the darkest days and ultimately raising them to the level of champions. But if the structure of the Penguins will reflect on the Pirates in any way than I see it going down like this: Have a core of young, talented players and find a way to keep them around for a few years. Experiment with them in the majors as much as possible and keep them in the mix, gaining experience along the way. Maybe they'll shuttle up and down for a season or two, but it's important to get them into major league action. Meanwhile, bring in a veteran or two or three and have them sort of act like a player coach to the younger guys. Little things like rehashing fundamentals down to perfecting things like eating healthy on the road (this is something Gary Roberts was famous for during his time in Pittsburgh) can do wonders for the future of a younger player. If they can find that young, talented player to build around then the formula will be even more successful.
BD: Judging from the way Pittsburgh sports fans have responded to Lemieux as a player and as an executive, what effect do you think he might have on the Pirates' image if he were the public face of the team?
FrankD: It definitely couldn't hurt. I'm sure you know more than anyone else that the Pirates have been the butt end of jokes lately because they are seen as the red-headed stepchild in a City of Champions. Lemieux's position as owner of the Penguins brought with it tremendous respect for the guy, not just as a player but as a philanthropist and cancer survivor, and I don't think that sort of thing will wash off easily with a trip across town.
BD: How have Lemieux and Burkle handled actual hockey decisions (that is, decisions about player acquisitions, etc.)? Do they mostly trust those decisions to others? The results they've gotten speak for themselves, but have those been the result of luck, sound planning, or both?
FrankD: I can't say for sure, but I really don't think Burkle has much to say in terms of transactions. GM Ray Shero is the one who handles the hockey transactions and such. In the past there have been instances where it was suggested Lemieux said things like, "I want so and so on this team, make it happen," and then Shero goes out and makes it happen. There have been other instances where Shero allegedly approached Lemieux and said, "We need this guy and here's why" and Lemieux said, "Do it" (paraphrasing, of course). It strikes me as a team effort between Lemieux and Shero, but again I don't see what goes on behind closed doors.
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The Civic (I'm not calling it Mellon) Arena
and, what is more important, the monstrously unfair Arena lease signed by Howard Baldwin before 66 took over were major contributors to the Pens revenue and payroll issues during the earlier years of the Lemieux regime.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
No kiddin. The minute he bought the team he was asking the players to defer salaries in this sort of “all for one, one for all” approach to keeping the team afloat. The previous owners, Baldwin and the other guy’s name who I can’t remember at the moment, were all about spending more than they brought in. It eventually all caught up to them and they had to file Chapter 11.
Frankly you could even trace it back to Denise DeBartolo as well. It was kind of her fault for putting the team into Baldwin’s hands. She only sold off the Pens because she was losing tons of money in the real estate market. That didn’t sit well with a lot of Pens fans and rightfully so. Oddly enough her son if now the president of the 49ers.
There was basically a span of about 10 straight years of horrible, horrible management decisions. It all pretty much came to a head when Mario purchased them.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
The DeBartolo children
have certainly been lacking in ethics and/or sagacity. Would it that the old man had put them in the mall business rather than pro sports. By-the-by Frank, did not the Pens’ arena lease cut them out on parking, concession, and merchandise revenue? If I recall correctly, this is why they chose to delay the blue alternate sweater by a few years — they simply were not going to get a fair share of the sales in their “own” building.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case. They certainly laid out a set of demands after it was determined they’d be staying in town. Business as usual I suppose, for whatever sport/team.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
To answer the question posed in the headline,
He would be okay. No better or worse than where Nutting is right now. I don’t blame them for trying to buy low, but it makes no sense whatsoever for Nutting to sell at this point. And frankly, it feels like Lemieux/Burkle are trying to buy their way into a “savior” role after seeing what the front office has established.
by Kidspud on Jan 30, 2010 4:59 PM EST via mobile reply actions
i agree
It all comes down to our scouting, and Neal Huntington. I believe if Lemieux/Burkle bought the team the payroll would not take a significant hike or anything. Lemieux was a great hockey player, and really did save the Penguins with his money, but I really would’nt credit him with all the success the Penguins have had. Lemieux has proved that hes not cheap by signing young players that earned their contracts, and will keep them around for years to come. They’ve also took “hometown” discounts for lack of a better word, because they all want to play together, and win. You won’t see any players doing that for the Pirates anytime soon.
Like Kidspud said Lemieux would’nt do any better or any worse at this point. It comes down to what players Huntington can acquire, and what ones he thinks we should keep. The reason the Pirates are in such bad shape before NH took over is, because how poor of talent evaluation Littlefield, and his staff did; not because of lack of money. It finally seems that NH has the shipped turned around we can only hope that when it is whoever the owner is at the time will give out the cash to keep our young core team around. As of right now though I have no confidence in the Nuttings that they will do that. So for that reason alone I’d like to see someone like Lemieux buy the team. Atleast they have a track record of a willingness to spend money.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 30, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
EDIT
I meant to say in the first paragraph that Ray Shero should get the praise for the Penguins success. He has done a great job of talent evaluation in drafts; although its pretty easy when you have guys like Sidney Crosby, and Evgeni Malkin sitting there for you. But he has also proven he is able to make key moves midseason to really get the most out of his team. The 2008 season he went out, and acquired Marian Hossa which resulted in a deep playoff run, and 2 games from the Stanley Cup. That offseason they re-signed key free agents (Brooks Orpik; which alot of people thought he left alot of money on the table to return to Pittsburgh). The following year Shero made a controversial coaching change mid season, and acquired Kunitz, and Geurin; which proved to be vital in our Stanley Cup run.
Thats all I can hope for is that when the time comes where the Pirates are ready to compete that Huntington will go out, and acquire players to put us over the top, and most of re-sign the players that we have developed.
by FusilliJerry88 on Jan 30, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think Lemieux/Burkle would be the messianic answer for baseball operations.
Nor are they for hockey operations. Hell, I’m all in on NH and “the plan.” I do think that Lemieux/Burkle do a good job of maximizing revenue in a small market environment. I would like to see some of that for the Bucs. I don’t care what Forbes Magazine says, this franchise is swimming in assets that are not being maximized. It IS worth more depending on the lens one uses to view it. I want to see someone spend more money on baseball because they are bringing in more money to spend. Lemieux/Burkle helped resurrect the Pens in perhaps the worst building in the league. What they might do with one of the finest baseball facilities on the planet intrigues me. It is the same thing that intrigued me about Cuban.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Beat me to it.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 30, 2010 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
I knew the day woud come...
but feared it with unwavering horror… Mario Lemieux has officially infiltrated his face onto the main page of the last known refuge in Pittsburgh sports discussion devoid of hockeymania… God help us all.
There are Greyhound buses that solve that.
by Phantaskippy on Jan 30, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
You know what cracks me up?
All those Browns fans pissed off at Modell for moving the team back 15 years ago. They got the Browns back, is it really any better than no team at all?
by IAPiratesFan on Jan 30, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
Probably posting this in the wrong blog, but...
I’d just. Like to take a momen to talk about Mario Lemieux’s tenure as co-owner of the Pens, and how it relates to the Pirates. Lemieux has done a good job since the salary cap was installed in the NHL, but his pre-cap tenure paralells some moves made by the Pirates in the early ’00s, before Bob Nutting became primary owner of the team.
Before the cap, the Lemieux Group:
—Traded Jaromir Jagr, the best player in hockey, for financial reasons
—Traded Alexei Kovalev for financial reasons
—Traded Robert Lang for financial reasons
—Traded Martin Straka for financal reasons
There wasn’t even internet access in many of the Pens’ offices until 2006. Imagine the fan reaction if McClatchy had the Pirates in that condition.
Now to reiterate, I think Lemieux has done a good job as owner of the Penguins. But I’m also going to be completely frank—Before the NHL installed the salary cap, the LG was no different than McClatchy was, and the LG’s success has largely been the result of extreme luck in winning the Crosby draft. I think it would be really cool if Lemieux owned both teams, but I also recognize that the Pirates would be run the same way as the Pens were before the NHL put the cap in.
by Kidspud on Jan 30, 2010 8:29 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Actually, he (or more accurately, him and his team) did a good good job pre-cap as well.
This was a patient on life support. They kept her breathing until the cure could be found.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
That's a pretty fair asssessment.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that the Pirates are going to be in a very similar situation until either a salary cap/floor is part of a CBA in MLB, or the Pirates have great drafts every year for a very long time. The people who think that having Lemieux step in will cause immediate success are taking it a little overboard, and I’m just making the point that it hasn’t been—and never will be—as perfect as it sounds.
by Kidspud on Jan 30, 2010 10:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And I guess what I feel about this,
and am doing a poor job of articulating, is that I sense a lack of vision at the top — a sense of vision, of creativity apart from the mechanics of building a team. As I’ve said before, I am on board with the NH approach to the baseball side of things to the degree that I worry about becoming too uncritical. Instead, and it is admittedly diffuse and somewhat impressionistic, my sense is that we’ve got a too conservative and disengaged group at the top that just does not see the possibilities here. That interpretation might be totally incorrect. Nonetheless, right or wrong, such impressions carry the coin of reality. Accordingly, just like field managers are sometimes changed to bring in some new energy, it seems to me that some new ownership blood might also freshen the scene.
Failing vision and creativity (and remember I’m talking about aspects of the organization apart from baseball operations), I would, at the very least, like to see someone at the top that folks recognize — a face that is thought to be accountable. John Galbreath wasn’t a media star, but you knew who he was and that the Galbreath family was accountable. For years now, we’ve lacked a sense of “Pirate Owner” in any concrete or truly meaningful way.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
I really think Nutting is that guy.
He’s really only had control of the team for two seasons, and he’s been very hands on. Before firing Littlefield, Nutting called him out for investing so few resources into Latin America, and I think Nutting made Littlefield discuss it with the media as well. Bringing in Frank Coonelly was a great move by his part, and his willingness to spend where (and when) it makes sense suggests to me that he knows what he’s doing. I feel that the changes made by the team in the past two years have been a product of solid leadership by Nutting, and that selling right now wouldn’t improve a team that is already on the right path, both on and off the field.
by Kidspud on Jan 30, 2010 11:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Geez, I truly hope you are right about Nutting.
If he wants to be the guy that the Bucs’ image and fortunes are tied to, and to lead with his chin, then I am on board. And I think you are correct in separating him from the recent past — thus far. However, I just can’t completely escape a certain sense of cynicism
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
There wasn’t even internet access in many of the Pens’ offices until 2006. Imagine the fan reaction if McClatchy had the Pirates in that condition.
“Hell, we got internet a long time ago, as soon as they invented those little credit card machines that attach to the PC.”
— Kevin McClatchy
Ha!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 30, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
My take on this whole thing
1. Mario wasn’t a wealthy owner when he took over. The team owed him a large chunk of money they couldn’t pay him. He took a good chunk of that toward buying the team, so he would get something at all.
2. He’s doing better now that the Pens are worth something, but an owner with no money can’t help a team trapped in a financial nightmare, that’s why those players were traded, he didn’t have nearly enough money to keep them and have the team hemorrhage money.
3. Mario isn’t a baseball guy. If he’s interested it is a business decision. AKA the group sees profit potential in the Pirates. Trying to buy low is a great idea if you believe the team is heading in the right direction.
4. If I’m right on point three then we don’t need a new owner. Either way I don’t like Mario owning the Pirates. I’m a huge Mario fan, I love the guy but as a Baseball owner, no. He has no clout in Baseball, at least in Hockey he is respected. I just don’t see the big boys in Baseball taking Mario seriously.
5. My goodness they laugh at us now, if the NHL team bought the MLB team. . . are you serious? We’d be a joke for a long, long time.
Lastly I don’t recall many owners in the modern era of sports being very successful running two teams. Usually you hear stories about how the owner spends all his efforts on the team he really cares about while his other team just stinks. Do we really need one of those situations in Pittsburgh? Can you imagine the accusations? The Yankees would claim we were using profit sharing to help fund the Pens. With Mario as an owner, the accusation would gain attention and investigation and cause even more problems.
I just see this idea as being bad all around, for business, political, and quality of the teams reasons. I may not love Nutting, the man isn’t the most baseball savvy owner, but I have a hard time seeing Mario being more dedicated to the on field success of the Pirates.
as noted in ESPN.com's article
Owning two teams would allow the Lemieux group to start a Pittsburgh Sports Network and make significant revenues on advertising… an excellent angle that would allow higher payroll, which theoretically would bring attendance and wins…
Yes -- this is an example of maximizing assets.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
There’s actually no reason Lemieux has to own both teams for a Pittsburgh Sports Network to get started. There’s a reason somebody invented the concept of joint ventures.
The TV network is really the key
A pairing of the Pens & Bucs to form a TV network has been rumored for a few years. With FSN dumping SportsBeat, there is not nearly as much benefit for either team being on FSN as their used to be (there are parallels with 104.7 dumping Ellis Cannon’s show recently) and one has to wonder if the original purpose of the converesation that included an offer was not to address TV issues.
One also has to wonder as to the timing of the leak of the offer (is it a last ditch attempt for the Pens to “force” a sale?) and the impact it has on the relationship between the teams, specifically if it opens or closes any doors with regarded to a new regional TV network highlighting the Pens & Bucs.
Good day.
Somewhat true on the multiple team owners, but
Mike Ilitch is a nice counter example.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Lemieux can take his hockey stick and shove it up his ass.
Before 87 showed up, the Pens were the same steaming pile the Bucs are now, and they couldn’t shed payroll fast enough. The worst part is, more great Pens left in the Matt Capps fashion than the Bay/Nady/etc. type fashion because they were so inept they couldn’t even trade their guys.
And if there’s one thing I know, it’s that without 87, we’re talking about Mario Lemieux, owner of the Kansas City Penguins. People want to crown Mario? “CROWN HIS ASS”
I’m just not gonna let the assclown off the hook.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
The Pens are all about Crosby, that's all
When they say he makes everyone look better, that goes straight to the top. I give Lemieux no credit for turning the ship around, nor keeping the team in Pittsburgh. Without 87, you don’t see the public outcry that led to keeping them here. They only people that would have noticed the difference would have been the 8000 and sometimes less people that showed up at the arena for the pre-lockout games.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by fugimaster24 on Jan 30, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
So, what you're saying is
“ass?”
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 30, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry if I was a little graphic
I’m just pissed that this entire summer is now going to be dominated by people talking about Lemieux buying the team. It’s not going to happen, and there’s no proof that if it did, he’d be any better an owner than Nutting.
Being the butt of jokes around baseball is one thing, but when Steeler and Penguin fans talk s*** on the Pirates, I just lose it. I’ve had enough of this garbage. Those same people making wisecracks and dominating the discussion in a negative way right now are the same ones that are going to make me feel dirty sitting in PNC Park with them when we finally make it.
Again, sorry to be an “ass” about it, but this rumor even being out there is going to suck, and I’m just upset.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by fugimaster24 on Jan 30, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, you are right about one thing for sure;
this sale is not going to happen. Where I think you might be wrong is in assuming that anyone will be talking about it come this summer — at least anyone that matters. And I feel your resentment about being the “butt of jokes around baseball.” Now, I’ve been in exile for nearly twenty years and have no conception of Steeler and Penguin fans as oppositional communities to the Pirates. I truly hope that such is not the case. I know I get pissed off every time some commentator refers to Pittsburgh as having always been a football town (generally prompted or accompanied by a pejorative comment on the Bucs). MY GOD!, the Steelers were the butt of jokes for years! In reality the Pirates ruled the town at least through the early 70s. I remember my dad shaking me out of bed in November 68 to drive in to Pitt Stadium and watch the Steelers and Cowboys. We walked up and bought great seats about two hours before game time. Nobody cared, fewer were there. Alternatively, good seats at Forbes for a Pirate game (despite an entertaining yet average team) were not such an easy get. Maybe I’m delusional, out of touch, or both, but I still see the Pirates as the city’s signature pro sports franchise. That fact just needs to be relearned
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Well I mean...
It’s the rift raft. Like I said, the same people throwing poop now will be the same ones mucking up PNC when we’re good again. True story, I left a Skyblast game because I couldn’t stand the people around me that were just there for OAR. Unbelieveably ignroant to the game of baseball, and unapologentic for making fun of the ones who were.
I don’t know. I’ve had enough. My favorite nights at the park are the ones when there’s no one there, and it’s just all baseball fans, and people who believe in this team like I do, or at least those who are frustrated, but not ignorant enough to turn on their hometown team.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by fugimaster24 on Jan 31, 2010 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
+1
It is unfortunate that once the totally not baseball fans won’t be there, due to a lack of need for the skyblast crap, all the seats will be filled by the equally horrible fair weather fans. I think that the next couple of years, no matter what the team does on the field, will be difficult for the real fans to actually sit through at PNC Park. I hope that I am wrong, I really do. Paul.
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jan 31, 2010 3:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Same with the Pens.
I used to go to Pens games all the time during the bad years and loved to see that young over matched team hustle and randomly play good hockey. I have made it to a few games since Sid came, and it is a different atmosphere.
The good part is those fans are getting better, just like Steeler fans who don’t know football, they learn. Pirates fans will learn, some will remain ignorant but we’ll survive. At least it’s a long season and I am able to go to day games so I have hope there.
by Phantaskippy on Jan 31, 2010 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
OK
The KC maneuver was just that, a maneuver to bully the city into a new arena, otherwise the Pens would have no new arena, and of the teams they needed it the most.
Lemieux got screwed over royally by the Pens, and ended up taking stock in a company that was in terrible financial state in order to recoup something of his money he was owed. Also without Lemieux we wouldn’t have had the Pens in the mid 90’s let alone today.
Mario didn’t ask to be an owner, he chose ownership over not getting paid at all. He’s stuck with it because his fellow owners needed him. I’m not going to say he’s the reason we are good now, but he’s a part of that reason.
by Phantaskippy on Jan 31, 2010 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
Look, there's no doubt Lemieux saved them Pens
I just don’t think he’s done anything to indicate he’d be able to turn the Pirates around.
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by fugimaster24 on Jan 31, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
Is there any substantial basis to suggest that the Lemieux Group would not
turn the Pirates around? I don’t think so.
Other than their deeper pockets, is there anything to suggest that there would be a significant difference between Nutting and Mario’s groups’ ability to field a worthwhile product? I don’t think so.
There are those who think that Mario’s group would constitute salvation, perhaps instant salvation. I’m not one of them and think that crazy.
Then there are those who are pleased with the trajectory of the Bucs at present but question Nutting’s willingness and ability to make intelligent financial commitments to fielding a winning baseball team. Those same people look at the deeper pocket’s of Mario’s group and the intelligent spending they have committed with the Pens and think that Mario’s group is a better risk going forward than Nutting. Count me among those people.
I trust everyone can make the distinction between those 2 groups, even if they disagree.
Good day.
Yeah
I don’t think Mario’s group would be bad at MLB. They probably would be pretty good. But I have thought the same about a Mark Cuban or Chuck Greenberg ownership.
I also like the direction Nutting is going. As long as the philosophy and guys making the baseball decisions stay the same, I’ve got no issues with any of them.
by MarkInDallas on Jan 31, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
I like the team’s current blueprint enough to not want to see it changed due to something like this. Although if the same plan is kept just with more money to spend, that is another story. I doubt there would be much more money towards talent acquisition/retention than there is now, though, for all the reasons covered above and in the other post.
Just an average fan
I guess I would be considered just an average fan that so many of your bloggers here disdain – but you know it is the “average” fans that come to the games, pay the ticket prices, and make a baseball franchise proffitable without having to rely and revenue sharing welfare to turn an operting profit. Having an ownership group who has to rely on the Pirates as their only real profit area means financial decisions will always be the primary force driving their decisions. I gave up on the Pirates last year after being a fan for 30 years living in Ohio. Look at the Reds – small market team still willing to both invest in their minor league system (signing of Cuban pitcher Chapman) but understands the importance of quality veterans in the clubhouse (Rolen). You can do both if you have an owner committed to putting a winning product on the field year in and year out and a good GM, which the Red now have. I am betting Lemieux is more committed to winning than Nutting. Have fun sitting watching the pirates with the 25 other hard core fans at a September Pirates home game in beautiful PNC Park!
Doesn't Rolen have a reputation as being a clubhouse cancer?
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Yes, but....
He’s a veteran cancer……
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Jan 31, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
Was just noting
That from 1997-2002 the Giants had not one but two notorious “clubhouse cancers” (Bonds and Kent, who supposedly despised each other, IIRC) and finished first or second every one of those years. I’d take all the clubhouse cancers you’d want to give me if they hit 35-60 homers a year.
“Clubhouse cancer” is overrated.
Real cancer, I can tell you, is not.
Some teams thrive on conflict.
The Dodgers and A’s of the ’70s both had very fractious clubhouses, with guys getting into fistfights in the dugout and whatnot, but both were still winners.
Ultimately, it all comes down to talent.
Reggie Jackson...
the Barry Bonds of the 70’s? Those Yankees teams had some chemistry issues when he got there as well. Though I’m sure Steinbrenner didn’t help that at all.
We Will
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
by fugimaster24 on Jan 31, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
I don't get it
You admit to being an average fan, but that allows you to be ignorant on certain matters? I’m an average basketball fan myself, but if I get schooled by my friends who know more than I do I don’t blow them off with some snide comment. I figured everyone would agree with this notion.
Ignorance is bliss...
just read the post again for evidence. Don’t blame him, he’s still plugged in to the matrix.
Also...
he admits to being a “former average fan.” He’s now a Red’s fan so I think the work former “fair weathered fan” is more appropriate.
Reds haven’t had a “winning product” since 2000, either.
by Adam Reynolds on Jan 31, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
They’re closer to a winning season, but I don’t know about “much” closer.
by Adam Reynolds on Jan 31, 2010 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
With all due respect...
Where has that willingness to spend by the Reds – especially on Rolen – gotten them?
The Reds are only slightly higher up the foodchain than the Pirates and a few more moves like Cordero & Rolen will probably push the Pirates ahead.
Good day.
+1
Good points but brace yourself, you’ve violated some cardinal rules here:
1. Saying that Nutting is less committed to winning than anyone else. (thou shalt not complain about Nutting and the FO)
2. Saying quality veterans are important in the clubhouse. (thou shalt not buy into the veteran presence, non-sabremetric baseball thinking)
3. Saying that Rolen is a quality veteran (thou shalt not opine on a veteran player without ample stats)
4. Calling out the board for their snobbery (real fans vs casual fans). (Thou shalt ignore the snarks).
-1 & +1
There is a good point here but probably not the point you are trying to make.
1. Nutting has only been majority owner a little over two years and has made massive changes to the Pirates top to bottom. From the front office to the Ml team to the minors to Venezuela to International and national scouting. The jury is out there as to whether he will spend money when the time is right. It’s a sure bet that he will not spend money that is not generated from team revenue (only owners that want to flirt with bankruptcy do this ie Tom Hicks)
2. Quality veterans? Aki at second, Dotel to close, Donnelly to set up? As discussed to Marathon length here <a href="http://www.bucsdugout.com/2010/1/26/1270235/why-not-pursue-a-shortstop"> here, there really wasn’t much out there that would help the club this year without blocking the development of what the Pirates currently have.
3. Stats are are useful tools and can persuade both the reader and poster after taking a solid look.
4. I do kind of agree with this, but I can understand the feelings of the “snobs”. These are people who have not given up on the Pirates and have armed themselves with the most thorough knowledge of the Pirates and and baseball in general than I have seen anywhere. They see fans like Ohiobuc as the fair weather fan that will be back if/when this current ownership gets the Pirates back to respectability.
That said, I do think ownership could do a better job in distancing themselves from prior ownership, their PR needs some work. They (and all of the die hards) need the casual fans like Ohiobuc back if this is going to work.
You can't be a "quality veteran" with presence...
…unless you’re an old white guy. As such, Dotel and Iwamura don’t really count.
It’s the same as the way that only white guys are allowed to be “scrappy”.
So you can only be colorful
if you’re col … um, African-American?
Exactly. As Vlad said, scrappy and quality vets are white, and colorful guys that lighten the clubhouse atmosphere are black. Asians are real serious and play the game right. The fact that Aki has a fauxhawk makes him a savvy marketer.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 1, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I still think Nyjer will break through that barrier and become MLB’s first scrappy black player, if he hasn’t already. The fact that he has a hockey background and gets his uniform dirty while he overslides bases makes it almost inevitable.
Just call him Nyjer “Scrapmetal” Morgan.
Not only does Nyjer have a hockey background, he wasn’t a flashy winger. He was an enforcer. He had over 200 penalty minutes one year.
by WTM on Feb 1, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
From FJM's guest appearance on Deadspin a few months back . . .
Let’s talk “scrappy.” Who gets this year’s David Eckstein Award for Seduction of Lazy Journalists By A Replacement-Level-Quality Player?
The fight for the Ecky is as competitive as it is fake. This year, in an exciting twist, lazy journalists were so lazy that they accidentally allowed 2 non-white players to sneak into the Ecky finals: Dexter Fowler and Nyjer Morgan.
In the end, however, the voting wasn’t even close. And the Ecky goes to…David Eckstein!
Meh...
I don’t think the term “casual fan” is used to be condescending. All fans are important and I can definitely live with fair weather fans if that means the Pirates are playing relevant baseball again. For me personally, I use the term “casual fan” to mean the average baseball fan (and by average I’m mean not diehard) who is sick of the 17 years of losing (as we are all) and blames the entire 17 seasons on Nutting, Huntington and Coonelly. They lump FC and NH into Dave Littlefield conversations as if they were the same person. They analyze every move the front office makes with the same old mantra: “Nutting is cheap!” or “salary dump!” We traded Bay and Nady because Nutting is cheap. The McClouth and Wilson trades were clearly salary dumps! Those are a couple of common arguments I here from the “casual fan.”
I don’t expect someone to be well versed in advanced statistics to be considered a “knowledgeable fan.” What I do expect is for that fan to have done the following: 1) take the time to look at the current plan being employed by the front office 2) understand where that plan differs from the one’s used by previous front offices 3) recognize that Nutting has been “actively” in conrol since 2007 4) recognize that Nutting has stated that he will spend in the Reds and Brewers range when the time is right 5) realize that time is not now since we have a core of unproven talent and aren’t projected to compete for a couple of years and 6) realize that as a small revenue team we cannot spend at the levels of the Yankees and Sox – ackowledging this fact means that you understand that we cannot field a consistently competetive team annually through buying top tier free agents (i.e. we can’t be the Yankees). Basically that is it.
Here are some things I don’t expect the “knowledgeable fan” to have to do: 1) agree with every move that NH makes 2) completely believe that Nutting will spend as promised 3) like the plan or the execution of the plan (I would hope that fan could support their reasoning for not liking the plan or present a realistic alternative) 4) be well adversed in advanced metics as stated above (but they should not laugh in the face of these stats when someone presents them to counter an argument).
That is about it. Those are some general guidelines that I use when throwing out that term. Maybe the word casual fan isn’t the right term but it’s a lot more flattering than say “ingnorant” or “uneducated” fan…and believe me I’ve heard those thrown around from some “snarky” fans as well. Please realize that when some fans use advanced stats to support an argument they are not doing so to be pompous, they are doing so because this is really a truly revolutionary field that has opened up a whole new way of thinking about baseball. Why do you think that most GM’s today are hiring their own personal sabermetricians? A lot of the new stats are a work in progress but many, many of the new stats have been proven to be pretty darn accurate and have made most of the former metrics we used to evaluate players pretty much meaningless (like ERA, BA, RBI, etc.). I will close on this, the first thing my proffesor said to me in my first stats class was: The beauty about stats is that the numbers don’t lie. The numbers don’t lie but how we interpret those numbers is what can be tricky. New advanced stats are helping us interpret the numbers more accurately.
Some things no one is talking about
There is a self fufilling prophecy at play here that no one is talking about. IF Lemieux bought the Pirates a couple things would happen. 1) they would sell more tickets. They just would and that would mean more revenue immediately, and 2) the masses would believe every word uttered by the Canuck Messiah. If Mario said, “we can only spend x amount” people would stop questioning the lack of spending and motives of the owner because everyone knows Mario is a winner. That in turn would also drive up sales and mean more revenue.
Obviously this is about a cable network don’t discount that. It HAS to be the primary reason for Mario’s interest. The Penguins benefit financially by the Pirates being the Number 3 team in the City. This is not some altruistic gesture.
Frankly, I think there would be no real difference between Mario and Nutting except the “trust factor.” Right now in Pittsburgh, that is HUGE. It would be a great thing for the franchise to get sold to Mario.
You are probably correct
But I’m not sure how that would play out in the near term. We are pretty much at exactly the same moment in the parallel history of the Brewers when they lowered payroll to prepare for the eventual arrival of Fielder, etc. The Seligs sold at that moment, and then the new owner got all the credit for raising payroll and the resurgence, even though the GM remained the same, and all the important players were acquired during Selig’s ownership.
Payroll right now is not a problem for the Pirates to add pieces, nor will it be for a few years. In that time, the Pirates are probably going to break .500 and be seen as a team on the rise, and that is going to get people in Pittsburgh excited, no matter who the owner is.
I guarantee you if it starts to be seen they were right all along, everyone is going to get behind Nutcoonington. That same thing has happened here in Dallas with the Rangers. Now, traditional hicks come on sports talk shows and give their opinion how the Rangers should trade away their aging vets to let the exciting youngsters come up from Oklahoma City.
It’s amazing what success will do to change people’s minds.
by MarkInDallas on Jan 31, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Why is hardly anyone.....
mentioning Ron Burkle here? He’s the multi-billionaire in the mix…
Because he lacks the name recognition. Which is a good indication of how much thought is going into Mariomania.
And frankly I think that’s the real point here. Burkle wants the team. Mario has the face. If Mario and Burkle become co-owners, I somehow see Burkle buying out Mario’s portion down the road and become the sole owner. I don’t follow baseball as much as I used to, but hasn’t he tried buying teams in the past? I think I remember reading a story about him and the Nationals.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
Burkle and Mario definitely work well together...
On the Bucs,there would definitely be benefits to Mario owning the team. As pointed above Mario would generate excitement and I would expect attendance to increase. That would be the main benefit. However, would Mario stay on course with the plan that is in place is the real question. Gven that I think the front office is on the right track I think a change in ownership at this point is dangerous. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be good for the Pirates but I don’t necessarily believe that Mario owning the team guarantees success. I do however believe the Nutting plan will eventually pan out. Now like I said I believe Mario would instantly increase revenues which would allow the team to spend more. I just don’t think we’d be able to spend in free agency to compete with the top tier teams. For that reason Mario would have to follow some of the blue print that is already in place. And if that is the case I don’t see the significant benefit from a change in ownership at this time.
Pittsburgh Penguins season records
under Lemieux/Burkle ownership:
Year Points Finish
2001-02 69 5th, Atlantic
2002-03 65 5th, Atlantic
2003-04 58 5th, Atlantic
2004-05 Lockout/SALARY CAP
2005-06 58 5th, Atlantic
Yinz see anything in there anywhere that says Lemieux/Burkle know how to build a winner in a league without a salary cap, and without Sidney Crosby falling into their laps?
Yeah, but if they owned the Pirates they’d spend jillions on top free agents and turn the team around! It’d be different because Lemieux is famous and used to be a player and he knows how to win!!
by WTM on Feb 1, 2010 7:29 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure, WTM,
but I think I detect just a hint of sarcasm in your comment. ;-)
the Pens earned the Crosby pick with a dismal record and a little luck in the lottery. The main difference is that while the Bucs were using their high draft picks on Paul Maholm (we project him to be a nice 3 or 4 starter) and Dan Moskos, the Pens were drafting the best talent on the board.
Moskos is a fair cop...
…but if the Pirates had taken the consensus best talent on the board the year they drafted Maholm, they would’ve ended up with Michael Aubrey. Which would not have improved our situation (and I say this as someone who wanted Aubrey at the time).
And of course...
…neither of those picks were made by the current front office.
Is it fair to blame Shero for Patrick’s old drafts?
2003 was not a great talent pool
But we do now have #12 pick Lastings Milledge as well, which may be one of the better position players from that year when all is said and done.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 1, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
No...
but they are certainly doing the right things now. And can we please stop with the Sidney Crosby luck thing. Luck is a factor for everyone. The Bulls were lucky when the selected Jordan, the Cavs with Lebron, the Steelers with Rothlisberger. The Pirates were stupid when the passed on Wieters. Lemieux still gets credit for selecting Crosby and they ger credit for extending their core and supplementing the team correctly to allow back-to-back cup appearances. I get it that you don’t like Lemieux but let’s not underestimate the impact he has had since becoming an owner. I was simply pointing out that they make a good team because Lemieux has the marketing appeal and star status and Burkle can be a quiet owner with deep pockets.
Never said I didn't like Lemieux
Just trying to paint a more realistic portrait than the icon most Yinzers have hanging on their walls. The lottery might have involved luck, but four years of terrible hockey, I dispute that anyone who watched those teams would consider himself lucky.
Also, how shrewd do you have to be to take Crosby if you have the No. 1 pick?
Yes, they are doing the right things now, obviously. It sure helped that everyone went without hockey for a year to get a cap in place.
Fair enough.
I get your point and agree that having Lemieux own the Bucs does nothing to guarantee success. Seemed like you were taking some unnecessary jabs at the man though but I could have just been reading into it.
And which of those two teams...
…is currently employing Littlefield?
Oh, that’s right. He’s with the Cubs now.
I think he’d keep Mario around, just like Mario is around for the Pens, but in a small amount of assets.
Mario is the “owner” of the Pens because the group understands the benefit of his name being placed there. Mario would stick around and his likeness and name would stick.
The one good point of the sale if it happened is the Pirates would get on board the nice wagon the Pens and Steelers are on and the Pirates most decidedly are not on. Thet would be good for the Pirates.
by Phantaskippy on Jan 31, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
So far I’ve gotten two facebook group invites for groups exhorting Lemieux or anyone to buy the Pirates. . .
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jan 31, 2010 4:18 PM EST reply actions
Historical Parallel
Courtesy of Google Archive, the January 28, 1969 edition of The Pittsburgh Press, featuring stories about the Steelers’ hiring Chuck Noll and drafting Joe Greene. As the article headlined “Who’s Joe Greene?” indicates, the fans were not impressed; the local preference seemed to be for known quantities (Joe Paterno and Terry Hanratty) over the unknowns (Noll and Greene). Best quote:
“Am I surprised? You better believe it,” a disgruntled salesman said. “The sports fans here are so sick at heart that I can see this move. Oh well, they didn’t get Paterno, either.”
He was referring to Penn State Coach Joe Paterno who turned down the Steeler coaching job.
Runner-up:
“It’s a typical Steeler pick. I just hope it turns out better than the usual Steeler first round picks.”
The “city of losers” caption under the picture of Noll is pretty hilarious, too. I’m guessing that those fans’ grandchildren are probably spending the weekend putting together those “Sell The Pirates To Mario Lemieux, Bob Nutting” Facebook groups.
Nice find! The moniker of the city of losers is referenced a couple of times. thanks!
by MarkInDallas on Jan 31, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks! Google Archives is quite the goldmine. During the Smizik threads last week, I posted a quote from an article that he wrote about the Steelers in November 1969, when they had lost ten in a row. Basically, Smizik set the article up as a conversation between “thousands of Pittsburghers” and their pessimistic view of the Steelers and Noll and his more hopeful perspective. It seems like little has changed. (Was Terry Hanratty the Neil Walker of his time?)
What I wonder is this:
Why would Mario owning the team cause a rise in attendance? He’s got as much to do with baseball as I do with Japanese politics.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
The Penguins
never have to deal with that phenomenon known as Steelers Camp.
Average Fan
You all are right – I don’t have a lot of the statistics. But here are a few:
Reds record after acquiring Rolen last year – 27-13. Years that Reds GM Jockety has been with the Reds – 2 years which is about the same as Huntington. Cincinnati’s market size is essentially the same as Pittsburgh. We’ll see who has the better record at the end of the 2010 season. I think it is time that Pittsburgh fans stop blaming Littlefield, although I agree he was horrible, and start holding the new regime accountable.
Reds started with a significant head start over the PBC. I hate to admit it, but NH deserves a little more grace than you’re giving him. NH to a lesser extent.
Jocketty’s actually done very little to improve the Reds. Their best position players (Votto, Phillips, Bruce), the good members of their rotation (Arroyo, Cueto, Harang, Bailey, Volquez if he gets healthy), and their best relievers (Cordero, Masset, Herrera) were all on hand when Jocketty arrived. The one exception was Arthur Rhodes, whom Jocketty signed. He couldn’t even have acquired Rolen if he hadn’t inherited a couple really good arms to trade for him.
by WTM on Feb 1, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Agree with this...
the Reds drafted much better under Krivinsky than the Bucs under DL. That’s why most of the Reds core is in the majors already while ours is just arriving. So to Ohiobuc, you are right in that the Reds will most likely have the better record. But like lloyd said I think the W-L record in 2011 will be the one where accountability will become an issue one way or another. I would expect us to at least be .500 or better by the end of that season.
whistling...
when you wish upon a star
I hope you’re right.
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