SF Chronicle: Pirates Wanted Gio Gonzalez and Ryan Sweeney for LaRoche
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jan 8, 2010 7:05 PM EST
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PrintThe Post-Gazette had this earlier today, but it might be worth more comment here:
I'm told the A's made an inquiry about Pittsburgh's Andy LaRoche quite some time ago, and the asking price was too high: Ryan Sweeney and Gio Gonzalez. So the matter pretty much ended there.
Gonzalez and Sweeney wouldn't be an awful package, but I'd rather just have LaRoche. I like Gonzalez, who's been an interesting starting pitching prospect for what seems like about a decade and has above-average velocity for a lefty, but he hasn't improved as much as one might hope as he's moved up the chain, and he has some control problems he hasn't really kicked. As for Sweeney, his offensive numbers last year looked a lot like LaRoche's--pretty good in a bunch of areas (walks, on-base percentage), although not great in any of them. Sweeney's also young, and he's a very good defender.
Unlike with LaRoche, though, there's no good reason to think Sweeney might one day break out offensively--his minor league profile just isn't that impressive. And with Lastings Milledge, Andrew McCutchen and Jose Tabata hopefully in the outfield mix for years to come, the Pirates may not have many opportunities to see what Sweeney can do anyway. (True, Pedro Alvarez could block LaRoche soon, too, but at least there's the option of moving LaRoche to second.) The success of the trade would probably depend pretty heavily on Gonzalez, and at this point he doesn't seem like a great gamble to me. I wouldn't be upset if this trade happened (and Gonzalez and Sweeney are both young and interesting enough to prove me wrong), but it's probably not something I would do.
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they like sweeney a lot
worth 4.1 WAR too.
His offensive upside is where he’s at right now, so I don’t see him getting better.
if LaRoche has a power surge, who knows…
At the same time, Sweeney for Laroche isn’t that absurd, so the bullet wasn’t terrible…
Same here
I d just hold on to LaRoche for now.
I wouldn’t mind moving him in a 1 for 1 deal that fits one of our areas of need, but Gonzalez may not fit into the rotation particularly well either, like you said.
plus
in the Bucs position, I would want high-upside prospects in trade rather than guys who’ve already burned a year or two of service time. I don’t really understand why NH would ask for two guys on the major league roster for LaRoche, especially when one is an outfielder. I’d imagine there was more to those negotiations than we’re hearing.
Plus
We don’t know when those talks occurred. At the time, Andy for those two might have looked like a mismatch.
The other thing is I don’t know that Sweeny has really maxed out his potential. Here’s a guy who is a fantastic defensive OF and an extreme line drive hitter who is 6’4" and 24 years old.
Are we sure he can’t hit 20 HRs in the future?
you might have point- he could be expected to develop more power, if he grows into his body… by most accounts, though, sweeney is pretty much in peak physical condition. The power could still come, as you say. Laroche for sweeney straight up isnt absurd, as i mentioned in the post above this one. Just that OF seems pretty full for the Bucs, so I m not sure what taking out a pretty good 3B would do at this point.
The deal is still tempting to me more because of Gio. Control is probably his biggest enemy. You could expect a better WHIP next year because of the hits coming down- he had a 363 BABIP last year.
To clarify
I would have done LaRoche for that duo of players.
I would've as well
Sweeney & McCutchen in the OF would be awesome defensively and, at worst Sweeney is a 4th OF, so he could back up McCutchen if Milledge & Tabata reach their potential. Gonzalez is a bit of a risk-reward type pitcher. I think I would take the gamble if I were in Pittsburgh…that said my favorite team has an incompetent GM so take this FWIW
Kevin Frandsen: The best SS on the Giants roster
Hoping for BowkerMania to hit AT&T Park in 2010
I'd also rather have LaRoche
It does seem favorable to the Pirates, but for some reason I feel like LaRoche is going to have a break out year. I also love how he has handled the whole Alvarez coming up behind him situation. I know being classy has little to do with success in a sport as individualistic as baseball, but I really like having him on our team. And I also feel that we have less depth at 2B/3B than we do in the OF.
Mark, you must also be pretty psyched at one of DK’s other revelations, namely that the FO focus is on Dotel. This is certainly good news to me, and I also like that we’re not offering Nady/Ankiel a starting job. I’m interested to see what we have in Clement and Jones, and I’m afraid that signing Ankiel would only cut into their playing time.
Yeah
That would be awesome if we can get Dotel.
I’m watching the Carrasco outings right now. He would be an OK pickup, but not for a closer role. He was used mainly as a long relief guy after the starter got blown out, and I get the sense that is where he is best used. Fangraphs called him the best of the mop up men.
He’s got a decent sinking action, but hitters seem to be able to time it pretty well. Against good teams he gave up runs, and against lesser teams, he had good results. I’ve got to think from looking at him that he’s not someone who’s able to match up real well against the better hitters. They are able to not only square up his sinking pitch, but hit it harder.
by MarkInDallas on Jan 9, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
where
do you watch videos of these guys? the only place i see videos is youtube and the videos are always from someones cell phone in the stands
MLB.com
I have the MLB.com package and you can watch any games from 2009 online with that. I pull up the player’s game by game results on baseball-reference.com to see when he pitched. Then I pull up the team’s tv archive and you can go right to the inning they pitched according to bb-ref.
I’d rather have LaRoche as well by far, mostly because I don’t believe in Sweeney’s bat as much and while he’s a plus defender, I don’t buy +24 in the OF as sustainable over the long run. He’s never going to have any power.
Gio is more interesting with a 4.0 xFIP, but he has a host of problems as well with control. I like the curveball, though, and he would have been the best piece of the two for us.
Trevor Cahill straight up???
Oakland wouldn’t do it. Vin Mazarro and a lesser prospect would be more likely, but I would totally go for Cahill :)
/now that I think about it...
If we couldn’t get Cahill, I would try for one of their 2B prospects. I really like Jemile Weeks and Mazzaro could be part of a good return. Mazzaro has good upside and could step right in as the fifth starter and Weeks would become one of our top 5 prospects.
LaRoche to 2b?
I’m not sure why there is talk of LaRoche moving to 2b; Iwamura will be there. Could Iwamura be traded “before” the start of the season (or when Alverez is called up)??? A lot of teams desired him before the Pirates made a deal, so they could get some nice prospects that they wouldn’t otherwise have obtained with Chavez. Keep in mind, that the talks of LaRoche moving to second base occured before they acquired Iwamura, but yet LaRoche continued to practice in the off season at 2nd. Thoughts?
by formerdraftpick on Jan 8, 2010 10:00 PM EST reply actions
It's all about the options
There are a lot of 3Bs that have learned to play 2B. Iwamura and Sanchez are two of them. There are lots more. So, regardless of whether Andy plays 2B for the Pirates or that skill is used to sell him to some team that needs a 2B, that’s going to be a good skill for him that will raise his value.
My guess is that the FO would prefer to have Andy at 2B if he hits as well as Aki or better. He’s going to be cheaper than Aki for the next few years and also he will be able to be traded with good value if he establishes himself as a good 2B with some pop. Regardless of Aki’s HRs in Japan, Andy would seem to have the better power potential in the coming years.
by MarkInDallas on Jan 9, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
Sweeney
I watched every game, he’s far from his peak reaching his max potential. I dont know where people are getting this information from. He hits in a terrible home hitter’s park which is a reality they have to deal with. His road OPS was around .850, the last 3+ motnhs of 09 when he got healthy he started to improve. He was the white soxs #1 prospect in 2007 and a top 40-50 prospect in mlb a couple years ago so there is a track record. White Sox deemed he stalled as a prospect 21/22 yr old in AAA. Labeled him as a 4th OF with fringe defenseive value. Is it far fetched that they proved those doubters wrong and exceeded expectations into an elite defender? A’s are one of the teams valuing defense and statistical analysis, so they obviously saw something in Sweeney. Sweeney wasp ushed to RF due to Pirates reject Rajai Davis tearing it up when he got a chance. Another example of a player taking advantage of opportunity.
ahh decisions, decisions
I like Laroche (especially if moved to 2nd base), and at first glance I was mad that Laroches name was even mentioned in trade talks. Me as a fan/viewer had to endure his on the job training, and would be mad if he was traded before his full potential was achieved. But after reading MagicMike23s post, and doing a little research I think it would have been a steal for the Pirates. Like mentioned remember that Sweeney was hitting in the best pitchers park (look at what happened to Matt Holliday hitting there), and we all know what happens when a AL pitcher comes to the NL. I think Sweeney and Gonzalez would come over here, and have an immediate impact. I also like the idea of maybe including Jemile Weekes in the package. I think thats something NH needs to look into further. A possible Sweeney, Gonzalez, and Weekes package for LaRoche, and Duke? Maybe Doumit? not sure of the A’s catching depth…
A's have solid catching depth.
Suzuki is a solid starter, Landon Powell’s good when healthy (but has conditioning issues), and they’ve got Recker at AAA if they need a temp and two good lower-level prospects in Stassi and Donaldson.
Reading the report
A’s interested in Laroche
Pirates asked for Sweeney and Gio
A’s declined
Would either team be willing to compromise? I could see A’s willing to give up Gio + something else. Or probably Sweeney straight up?
Other hitters: Cunningham, Patterson, Buck, Brown, Desme, Taylor, Sulentic, Peterson, Doolitle (1b/OF), Carter (OF/1b), Donaldson ©
2b: Cardenas, Weeks
Other SP’s: Cahill, Anderson, Braden, Mazzaro, Simmons, Outman (TJ surgery),
Simmons,Mortensen, Godfrey, De los Santos, Capra, Ross
Relievers: Demel, Rodriguez, Bailey, Devine, Wuertz, Kilby, Meloan, Carignan, Storey, Ziegler, Blevins.
Guys you can rule out...
from that list" Cahill, Anderson, Taylor, and Carter. Everyone else should be fair game in a package for LaRoche. I would really like a Mazzaro and Weeks for LaRoche deal.
Presumably, if LaRoche were to have a strong first half – not a breakout, but as good as his better periods last year – the As would be interested in this deal after all. But I don’t really see the point of acquiring another OF, esp. one who doesn’t project any better than Tabata or Milledge. I mean, you always like depth, etc etc., but why not acquire a player to fill a hole? Someone in baseball must have an extra SS, right?
Best case is a big LaRoche breakout, Pedro ready to come up, Aki playing well and extending, and us flipping Andy for some primo talent. Not that I don’t want to keep a broken out Andy, but he’d fetch quite a bit, I’d think (given service time).
I think the best case scenario ..
… (outside of the Pirates sweeping the 2010 World Series) would be Iwamura being traded for talent in July after a strong 3-4 months, LaRoche moving to second (and possibly learning the position through a time split with Young, Vazquez or Crosby/Cedeno the rest of the season) and Alvarez coming up ready to play 3B for the long term. I’d rather see LaRoche be our long-term solution to 2B than Iwamura, given his age and cost.
In the short term...
…Sweeney DOES project as better than Tabata. Which would presumably be the point: to allow Tabata to get more upper-minors development time, so that he’ll actually be able to hit a little when he’s promoted.
The A's would have been out of their minds to do that deal....
There is no way LaRoche is worth both Gonzalez and Sweeney.
by Nutting Hostage on Jan 9, 2010 12:06 PM EST reply actions
Disagree about Sweeney's chances...
Unlike with LaRoche, though, there’s no good reason to think Sweeney might one day break out offensively—his minor league profile just isn’t that impressive.
He hit 13 HR’s and 25 doubles as a 21 yr old in AAA. He’s big and lanky, will only be 25 this season could still develop into a stronger offensive presence.
Not he will be as great, but Clemente did not start breaking out until he was 25 or 26. Baseball history is filled with late bloomers.
by Nutting Hostage on Jan 9, 2010 12:15 PM EST reply actions
I agree
Jayson Werth comes to mind when I look at Ryan Sweeney’s skill set, body type, and situation.
When I heard of Oakland’s interest in LaRoche, I immediatley thought of Adrian Cardenas. The As have Jemile Weeks coming up behind Ellis and may be willing to part with one of them. Cardenas would solve the 2B problem for the long term and is close to ready now.
I’d also ask for a lesser pitcher, or maybe try to pry Outman loose since he’s out with TJ surgery.
RO
Considering the efforts to this point...
I’m not sure a signing or two for the bullpen constitutes positive news. Especially with some of the names mentioned…although I’d probably consider Dotel positive news.
leverage
I think NH has the leverage in this deal, because the A’s are trying to acquire a need, and they could easily reach for Laroche. The Pirates on the other hand would be dealing away depth, so I think NH needs to stay firm on his asking price. But I do think that if we deal away Laroche we need to get a secondbasemen of the future back in the deal. NH needs to expand the deal to attract Billy Beane; he should include a more established player in the deal such as Doumit, Duke, or Maholm.
Propose a deal of Sweeney, Gonzalez, and Weekes for LaRoche, Doumit, and Duke.
I think this would be a steal for the Pirates. By including Doumit, and Duke we would save alot of salary as well. Sweeney could step in this year and play above average right field, and compete with Tabata next spring for the position. Then I think Gonzalez steps in this year in the NL, and performs better than Duke while being younger, and cheaper. Then you let Iwamura play secondbase, and build value until Weekes is ready. Then since Doumit is gone you let Clement be the starting catcher to get his bat into the lineup, but you give him plenty of days off since we have a very good back up in Jaramillo.
Wouldn't include Duke in the deal...
we should be able to get those three for LaRoche, Doumit, and a lesser player. I don’t see why Oakland needs Doumit though, considering they have a pretty good starter in Kurt Suzuki. Maybe LaRoche and Duke for Weeks, Gonzalez, Sweeney and a lesser prospect, but I also don’t see why oakland would give up prospects for a back end starter like Duke with all of the pitching depth they have. They have more than 5 guys who have a chance to be better than Duke, including Gonzalez.
If you love Doumit getting constantly injured, then you’ll love Weeks as well.
by Adam Reynolds on Jan 9, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
That would be a terrible deal.
You’re adding in Doumit AND Dukes to get a decent-but-not-great 2B prospect?
Yick.
BTW, Kevin Goldstein did his overview of the A’s prospects recently, and neither Gonzalez nor Sweeney are on his top young talent in the organization list. Sweeney is pegged as a fourth outfielder. That would appear to agree with my concerns
(link)
I knew that. Still, not top 10 is still non-top 10. If it doesn’t rise to the top, it isn’t the creme. That’s just the way it is.
by Adam Reynolds on Jan 11, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
As an A's fan
Let me say 2 quick things
1) we have zero interest in Doumit or any other catcher, Suzuki is a great catcher and we have 3 prospects behind him
2) we also have little interest in pitching prospects we have tons of of those
Since neither team is playing to win ‘10 a trade would have to be mutually beneficial. I know that A’s needs are 3b, ss, and we have lots of OF, catchers, and pitchers. I can’t really imagine us dealing a 2b prospect as we only have 2 that look good (Weeks and Cardenas). Thou Cardenas is now our top 3b prospect since we dealt for Taylor so I can’t see him as being on the table. Thou if I have learned anything about A’s baseball its to expect the unexpected
And I believe your areas of surplus and needs are roughly the same, expect for LaRoche.
And I personally really like Sweeney I think he can develop into a great hitter. The Net is a terrible place to play baseball as there is a ton of foul ground and the outfield is deep. Which hurt Sweeney’s power numbers, and again he is only 24
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