Who's laughing now?
All I know about other GMs I learn here at Bucs Dugout. So how the...? What...? But if he...
A cursory glance at their roster indicates Sabean has hit big with a couple pitchers and Posey. And (this year) managed to take the right chances (some might say "got lucky") with a near-career year from Huff at a great price, a huge resurgence from Pat Burrell, and an out-of-nowhere year from Andres Torres. It wasn't quite out of nowhere, because he was good in limited time in 2009.
Obviously hindsight is on my side, but I think those were appropriate gambles for a team with apparently limited internal options.
Throw in a fleecing of the Pirates for an average year from an average 2B, and they cobbled together enough offense to be on the cusp of a World Series berth.
I have no idea about their farm system, but they don't strike me as a team that's being obviously mis-managed. Please correct me. No, really, please. I don't want to think the BD community doesn't know a bad GM when it bashes one. Because that might mean we also don't know a good one when we praise one.
over 1 year ago
azibuck
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in fairness to Sabean's ineptitude,
his biggest albatross as a GM (Barry Zito) hasn’t pitched at all this postseason, despite not being on the DL
This is mostly a side note, but
I don’t think the Giants really got any added value from trading for Sanchez. If you believe fangraphs, his performance this year was worth $10.6M in “free agency money”. We traded him with a $6.25M salary last year (Giants paid about half), and an $8M option this year. The Giants had the option to pay about $3M for nothing (2009) or $11M for $10.6M of market value performance. They turned that into a 2 year $12M contract, but that shouldn’t be considered as part of the trade equation.
So assuming Alderson doesn’t magically come to life, the trade amounts to trading nothing for nothing.
charity standing orders
Back to the original question
I’d say we have a “prospect bias” here, just because that’s all we have to look at. I remember some people criticizing the Reds for the Rolen trade last year, but that one turned out pretty well for a team that was turning a corner.
In reality, I think it should come down to Colletti vs. Wade.
charity standing orders
IMO
Sanchez was not important to the giants, they could have gotten that year elsewhere. Their big bumps came from Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner and Posey. Huff provided a great great year, which was the biggest “move”. Of course, their pitching development has been good for a while, esp with top draft picks.
Torres was another huge contributor, that they may have gotten lucky with or “seen” something, I dont know. But you’re right, he hasn’t been too bad.
You mean
The fleecing where they re-signed Sanchez rather than letting him walk during the offseason? And then platooned Sanchez?
I mean fleecing by its ordinary definition
Fabric with a soft deep pile.
If Sanchez became a FA and re-signed with them, maybe that’s incorrect then. But if they hadn’t agreed to new terms, SF still might have picked up his option. I mean, Sabean is the worst GM in the game, after all! Thus, it doesn’t change the fact that they got an average major league infielder for a player that is closer to washing out of baseball than becoming an average major league pitcher. Considering the reasons Alderson has that status (velocity and possibly mechanics), it’s pretty clear the Pirates were taken.
The book’s not closed, I get that. I’m just saying that, right now, from that transaction, they have something, we have nothing.
And I didn’t really mean to argue every point. The fact is Sabean was almost universally panned as a GM just two years ago, not just at BD, but today is thisclose to being GM of the National League Champions, and he had a lot to do with it. Maybe it’s all luck, but it’s a fact. I just found it interesting. I knew he’d been criticized here, and when I searched his name I found that post. I didn’t consciously remember that poll, but it’s kinda funny now. I thought.
from that transaction, they have something, we have nothing
The thing that they have from the transaction is Freddy’s 2009 performance, because that’s all that they gained from us in the trade.
But if they hadn’t agreed to new terms, SF still might have picked up his option.
Possible, but unlikely, given that he injured himself down the stretch badly enough to need knee surgery.
That's a weird way to view option years
Freddy’s 2009 performance, because that’s all that they gained from us in the trade.
They gained team control for 2010. They chose to convert it to an effectively different contract, but it’s bizarre to just handwave away an option year that plainly was part of the situation.
Among other things, does the trade really go down like that if Sanchez was a FA at the end of ‘09? I’d be curious to see you argue that claim.
Among other things, does the trade really go down like that if Sanchez was a FA at the end of ‘09?
To address just this one question — I expect Sanchez would have had more trade value had it not been for the strong likelihood, or so it appeared at the time of the trade, that his 2010 option would vest.
by WTM on Oct 28, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
They gained team control for 2010.
Which they then didn’t use, because he wasn’t worth the cost of the option.
They chose to convert it to an effectively different contract…
They didn’t “convert” it into anything. They negotiated a completely different contract with him, just like they would have been able to do if he’d been a free agent.
Most teams wouldn’t have survived the Zito, Rowand, and even Renteria contracts. Certainly, there is much to like about the 5 pitchers he’s drafted (Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, and especially Jonathan Sanchez (27th round, 2004) Brian Wilson (24th round, 2003).
He’s also made very wise moves in the past two years, such as Huff, Uribe, Sanchez, Cody Ross, Burrell. These moves might indicate that he’d be a better small-market GM, because he was given the big bucks and blew it.
Does this playoff run change my estimation that he’s one of the worst 10 GMs? Yes, but he’s not top ten either. Given the pitching he’s drafted and the very savvy low-cost hitting moves, I’d probably put him around the 14-18 range. He sure blew a lot of money on garbage like Zito, though. That cannot be ignored. That would have crippled the Bucs.
Proprtionally for the Bucs,
you’re talking Matt Morris.
Heh.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 22, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
barry zito may not be worth the bazillions in salary he recieves
but to call him garbage is insane. he would be, in fact, our “ace”. if his contract was just HALF of what it is now, he would be called a pretty decent pitcher
by white angus on Oct 29, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that a lot of people also discount Sabean somewhat...
…because his early ’00 teams were built on the backs of unexpectedly strong performances from marginal veterans, and a lot of those guys later turned up in the Mitchell Report. So either he got lucky, and deserves no credit, or he was knowingly condoning felony drug use/distribution in his clubhouse.
If nothing else, you can say that Sabean learns from his mistakes. His strategy for years was to cobble together veteran teams around Bonds, to the point where he purposely gave away first round picks so he could spend every dime on veterans. It was a coherent strategy, at least, although it left their farm system in a shambles. He’s tried the last couple years to address that. The Rowand and Zito contracts resembled Coletti’s addle-brained Nomar/Andruw/Pierre/Schmidt spending spree, but he didn’t repeat the error this year. Freddy’s extension wasn’t exactly brilliant, but it wasn’t the equivalent of the one the supposed genius in Seattle gave Jack Wilson.
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