Barry Bonds wants to be a hitting coach?
by TeamIan on Oct 28, 2010 2:10 PM EDT
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According to this article Bonds is interested in becoming a hitting coach -- and teaching people his "gift". The article is full of fairly arrogant comments (though nothing I necessarily disagree with). While he implied he'd rather do it with the Giants, I don't think it's necessarily out of the question he'd consider elsewhere.
That got me thinking -- would it be the worst thing in the world were he to come to the Pirates in such a capacity? It could help rehabilitate his image in this city, bring an unusual amount of interest and fanfare to the Pirates and who knows, maybe he really can impart some excellent tips for our young lineup? I mean, the possible negatives are so numerous they are pointless to repeat.
Curious to everyone elses thoughts?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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"You see son, what you do is...
…start with world class talent, and then augment it with world-class drugs. Being a dick to everyone in your life won’t hurt, either."
I’m extremely dubious about HoF grade talent being able to effectively coach pitching and hitting. Fielding and managing*, sure, but “use practically inhuman hand-eye coordination” isn’t actually useful advice. Imagine Greg Maddux coaching: “No, no, no, you need to hit your precise spot with every single pitch. How many times do I have to tell you that?”
- Fielding because a lot of it has to do with positioning, footwork, and anticipation/situational awareness, and managing because you’re not trying to teach specific skills, but handling a bunch of guys in a clubhouse, making on-field decisions, and organizing a staff. It’s not a natural fit, but I think that talent as a player is neither here nor there. I think it’s very hard for players with truly exceptional natural gifts to impart them to the merely extraordinary.
by JRoth95 on Oct 28, 2010 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Part of Barry's "world-class talent"...
…was his picture-perfect hitting mechanics and his ability to work out pitch sequences. He can’t teach people to be faster or stronger, but I think he’d still have a lot to offer a receptive player, as far as eliminating wasted motion or spotting the breaking ball.
Thing is
I’m not sure that the gap between him and a typical hitting coach is more significant than that between the typical hitting coach and the typical player.
IOW, every hitting coach worth his salt can tell a young and/or mediocre player that he needs to simplify his mechanics, and he’ll know a lot, lot more about pitch sequences than almost any player. Bonds would be ahead of him on both counts, but I’m not sure it’s a critical difference.
Who can teach 5th grade math better, an ordinary primary math teacher or a calc prof? There’s absolutely no reason to expect the prof to be better, just because she is both smarter and knows more. Those aren’t the relevant metrics once you’ve crossed the threshold of being, well, smarter than a 5th grader.
All that said, I certainly think that Bonds would have something to teach elite talents*, especially on pitch sequences. He might even help Pujols become a better hitter, insofar as that’s possible. But there’s only a few elite talents out there.
- Just as that calc prof would probably do better with the 2-3 smartest 5th graders, because she’d be more on their level than a typical primary teacher.
There’s absolutely no reason to expect the prof to be better, just because she is both smarter and knows more.
There isn’t? That’s certainly the conclusion I’d draw.
I get his point.
That no matter how smart the teacher is, there’s only so much you can expect a fifth-grader to absorb. Any knowledge the teacher has above that is better spent on high school or college students. Like, we’re all pretty well versed in the English language at Bucs Dugout, but no matter how smart we are, we’re not going to be able to get a 1-month-old baby to speak the language tomorrow. I think that was the point.
OK, I'll buy that.
If Albert Einstein is teaching high school physics, it’s kind of a waste. The kids aren’t going to get as much additional benefit from him as a class of college physics majors would. But that doesn’t mean that Einstein wouldn’t be a good high school physics teacher.
The critical skill for a teacher
is teaching, not advanced* mastery of the subject. A good teacher can teach low level students any subject with which she’s familiar enough. A bad teacher couldn’t teach someone how to do whatever is her own specialty.
Theoretically a college prof also has teaching skills, but not necessarily ones suited to teaching 5th graders (and, more practically, the academy doesn’t select for teaching skills, but for research and/or publishing abilities).
- that is, advanced relative to the field as a whole; you certainly need to be advanced relative to the students
I don’t know. Wouldn’t hitting be equivalent to calc for everyone in the major-leagues, though? It’s the hardest job to succeed in pro sports.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 29, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I do think there's something to this
But it’s not clear to me whether it’s a situation like BABIP or HR/FB, where everyone who’s reach MLB already is at an extraordinary level, or if there’s as big a gap between Pujols and Argenis Diaz as there is between, say, a humanities major taking a required freshman math class and a post-doc.
It’s not just that the two would need to be taught different materials, but that everything about teaching them would be different (indeed, you don’t “teach” post-docs; you advise them, and even that pretty lightly). Specifically a guy like Diaz hasn’t really hit at any professional level, so it’s not just a matter of helping him adjust; if he’s ever to be a useful MLB player, he needs to make strides in his hitting, and he’s in a totally different place from a Jose Bautista, who obviously had some capacity and simply wasn’t applying it.
Possibly true. At least according to Wikipedia, Ted Williams was also not too effective as a hitting coach, because he was impatient with ordinary hitters.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 29, 2010 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Regardless of what Wikipedia thinks about it...
…Williams’s players generally hit better after he got there, and hit worse after he left. Which would seem to suggest that he knew what he was doing.
G Maddox would probably be a great pitching coach
he wasn’t blessed w/ a great arm (power-wise)…but he pounded the strike zone on both sides, changed speeds, and his arm motion was consistent…he didn’t give away the pitches, which keeps a batter consistently guessing.
Getting his point across to never be afraid of a hitter, never to give in to a hitter, to smooth out the delivery for each type of pitch along w/ sharing his knowledge of setting hitters up…best type of coach IMO, his knowledge of the art of pitching far out-weighs a coach who either got killed his career or threw 95 plus and just blew the ball past hitters.
by Dan Jenkins on Oct 30, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
If we were going to sign G Maddox, I’d rather have him as an outfield instructor.
Kidding, of course. Yeah, I think Maddux would make a pretty strong pitching coach. His brother’s done OK in the role, and he couldn’t hold a candle to Greg on the diamond.
But is consistent arm motion teachable?
I’m doubtful, especially at the MLB level. It’s very hard to know when a guy with unorthodox mechanics is having success because of or despite them. Obviously every pitcher needs not to tip his pitches, but Maddux was very successful because he was able to be effective with his pitches even while throwing them all the same. Not everyone can do that – or at least, not everyone can learn to do that after they’re already at the MLB level.
There’s an argument for trying, as an org, to mold every pitcher from their first day of short season into that kind of approach, but it seems awfully late to start in MLB – look what happened to Lincoln.
the guy can hit that’s for sure, but i don’t know if he could teach it and i do know that his (lack of) people skills would probably doom the enterprise from the start.
if he were willing to start out in the minors (and i’m betting he isn’t) maybe he’d be worth giving a shot to prove himself. i hesitate to think that he’d be open to coming back here, but at this point in his life if he wants to be involved with baseball, he can’t be too picky about opportunities.
Sorry won't work
Greg Brown would kill Bonds !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
by CentralPaBucFan on Oct 28, 2010 4:51 PM EDT reply actions
Bonds could be a fine hitting coach. He has a good work ethic, players respect him and he knows how to hit. That said, I don’t see him returning to Pittsburgh.
IFthe Pirates were dumb enough to do that,
he would stay to get his foot in the door and run at the first opportuntiy. Bonds is not reliable and only thinks of #1. My opinion, of course.
Tom Specht
I can’t believe people are worried about Bonds being a distraction. Who gives a damn if he’s a distraction? The Pirates aren’t winning anything next year, and him being present wouldn’t harm anything. The man knows how the ins and outs of present-day Major League hitting better than any living person on the planet. He’s beyond qualified, and he’d make the Pirates a little more legitimate.
I’d take him in a blink if he wanted to come back here.
What's the worst that could happen?
Seriously, ok so he doesn’t work out and embarasses the team some. In case some hadn’t noticed, the team is already kind of embarassing..
In response to JRoth, just because HoF talent is HoF talent, doesn’t necessarily mean they’re incapable of grasping the notion that others aren’t as gifted.
Let me pose this question to you guys:
We often state that if we want payroll to increase, attendance must increase (Mark goes a little bit more in depth with figures).
However, would it be possible to increase attendance and any subsequent revenue, even over the course of just one year, by hiring Valentine as the manager, Bonds as the hitting coach, and (gasp!) Van Slyke as a third-base coach?
The buzz from Sportscenter and Baseball Tonight alone would be enough to bring a ton of people to the ballpark. Just a thought. A crazy thought, but we’re told to think outside the box right? lol.
It's not that he couldn't understand they're less talented
I was being facetious of course. But my point is that, for a guy with that kind of talent, hitting at a 90 OPS+ level (what you’d see from a typical SS or glove-first C) didn’t require advanced application of learned skills – Bonds could have had a noisy swing and a primitive attitude towards pitch sequence, and his raw talent (plus basic practice – I’m not saying it wouldn’t involve effort) would have achieved roughly that. So he’s not going to be as good* at explaining the relatively rudimentary adjustments mediocre hitters need to make.
Walk before you can run, but Bonds was born walking, and is best qualified (IMO) to teach other runners to run faster.
- I should say “not necessarily” – some people have a talent for teaching, regardless of their skill level. Some math geniuses can tutor truly backwards kids, and some just keep repeating, “If you multiply any number by an even one, the answer is even! Can’t you see that!?” My point is that being a math genius is no qualification for teaching math. Teaching ability is the key qualification.
A bad idea:
…Valentine as the manager, Bonds as the hitting coach, and (gasp!) Van Slyke as a third-base coach?
A somewhat better idea:
…Hitler as the manager, Vlad the Impaler as the hitting coach, and (gasp!) Stalin as a third-base coach?
s.zielinski
Barry Bonds as coach is enough to trigger Godwin’s Law?
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 29, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Stalin as a third-base coach
He’s already under contract for 2011. With the Reds, appropriately enough. Link.
If Bonds gets hit by a bus tomorrow...
…I wouldn’t flinch. If he was brought back to be associated with the Pirates in any way shape or form, I’d probably stop being a fan for life. I think that would be the only thing that would end my love for the Pirates.
Dude is a complete jerk
I’ve met him twice while he was in Pittsburgh, and he is just not a nice guy. He’s going to get in bigger trouble with the law and we don’t need that media circus distraction when new information comes out about steroids/taxes/etc.
Just because you were great at something doesn’t mean that you can teach it or talk about it at a high level. Joe Morgan is was a great player and is maybe the worst announcer of all time. Bonds has no experience coaching, I wouldn’t consider having him coach at the major league level without any experience.
Personal experience isn't necessarily representative.
I met him once while he was in Pittsburgh, and he was really nice. Signed me an autograph and everything.
The case against him is a joke. I have no doubt that he did what they say he did, mind, but it doesn’t come close to establishing guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And once that fizzles, he’ll be free and clear, legally speaking.
The indictment is for perjury, right?
How is it a “joke”? Not being contentious, just asking you to explain your reasoning.
I don’t know how much Bonds paid Greg Anderson to keep his mouth shut, but it was enough.
Here's how it breaks down.
The way Barry’s testimony was phrased, they have to prove not only that he used, but that he knew he was using at the time that he used, which is much more difficult.
The internal tests and calendars and stuff were thrown out during the discovery phase, and Anderson shows no signs of caving. Without him to say that Barry knew he was taking steroids, they just have the word of Kimberly Bell – Bonds’s disgruntled ex-mistress, who leveraged her statements for considerable financial gain (including a Playboy spread) – and Bobby Estalella, an admitted drug user who’s receiving immunity for his own usage in exchange for testifying. So it’s a he-said, he-and-she said, where the he-and-she both have credibility issues.
You never say never, but I’d be extremely surprised if they managed a conviction. This is all about justifying their initial investment of time and effort at this point, with a substantial sending-a-message component as well.
Fair enough
But let’s face it: Anybody who would testify about the shady steroids world is going to have credibililty issues.
For you it may not be, but for me two different instances are enough to judge.
I’d definitely convert to full time Athletics fan only if they brought him on in any capacity. As i said its about the only thing they could to make me hate the Pirates.
Always been
my stance. You take your 25 Doug Mentkiewiczes and I’ll take 25 Albert Belles and I’ll kick your ass 99 out of 100 times. Maybe 98, guessing Albert might blow a save here and there.
You're allowed to draw your own line wherever you want, of course.
But if having to watch Wil Cordero in black and gold didn’t kill my fandom, it’s hard to imagine what would.
If the last 18 years didn’t end it for me, then Bonds probably wouldn’t.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 29, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he'd potentially make a good coach.
And while it may seem crazy to think of him being a popular elder statesman in Pittsburgh, I bet the idea of Dave Parker as a guest instructor for the team would’ve sounded pretty crazy in 1990, too.
Time heals all wounds
Parker is almost a sympathetic figure now. His drug abuse cost him a spot in the Hall of Fame, nobody to blame but himself.
Bonds?
Nobody here knows Bonds personally so it’s difficult to say for sure. But we all know an awful lot about him and I just think it sounds like a terrible fit. From what I understand, being a hitting coach is a difficult job. For starters, it requires tons and tons of hours because you’ve got to work with all 25 guys. Tedious, long hours in the cage and in front of video. With everything I “know” of Bonds, he seems to have none of the skills to handle that responsibility.
by my dixie wrecked on Oct 29, 2010 12:49 AM EDT reply actions
I think it’s pretty interesting that there is some impression that Bonds wasn’t a hard worker. If I remember correctly, he was always one of the hardest workers on his teams when it came to hitting. Like him or don’t, but don’t assume that being a jerk means you aren’t a hard worker.
This is correct.
His dedication to his craft is in large part why he became as good a player as he did.
ok
What skills do you think Bonds possesses that would lead to success as a hitting coach? He is obviously a hall-of-fame hitter himself but I don’t think you are suggesting that alone would make him a good coach. So what? Does he seem like a patient person? Does it seem likely that he’d willingly put in 60 thankless hours per week helping others find success? Does he seem like the kind of person who could get along with all 25 personalities in a clubhouse? Take orders from a manager who couldn’t hit his weight in the bigs? Look, maybe he has what it takes. I just don’t see it at all.
by my dixie wrecked on Oct 29, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
What skills do you think Bonds possesses that would lead to success as a hitting coach?
*He’s very good at analyzing swing mechanics and identifying and correcting flaws in them. That’s the most important skill for a hitting coach.
*He’s got a lot of functional knowledge about training methods and techniques to improve hitting.
*He’s got an extremely high work ethic. His offseason workouts were legendarily brutal.
*He’s proud and competitive. Those are good qualities, from a motivational perspective. He isn’t going to rest on his reputation, or be content to fail.
*Players may not like him on a personal level, but they all respect his skills and his knowledge. He’s already provided personal hitting instruction for several players as a favor, most notably Ryan Howard.
That I didn't know
And makes me much more open to the idea.
He’s already provided personal hitting instruction for several players as a favor, most notably Ryan Howard.
Hmmmm.
Why do you think he’s “very good at analyzing mechanics and identifying and correcting flaws…”? I’d like to hear some evidence of that. Otherwise the skills you mentioned are really more suitable for a trainer than a hitting coach. But what do you think about the skills I mentioned above, like getting along with all 25 guys in the locker room? Do you contend that he’s likely to have that skill? Or do you think it unimportant? It’s my understanding that the job is not about working out with a couple of superstar players and giving them tips now and again. It’s countless hours in the cage and looking at video trying to help a .220 bench player become a .250 bench player. Then helping a middle reliever work on getting his bunts down. And so on and so on… It seems to me that it takes a certain personality to perform well in that position. Again, I don’t know the man but I think we all know a bunch about him and it seems like an awful fit.
by my dixie wrecked on Oct 30, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that you can be a good coach...
…while being a contentious or divisive personality. Johnny Sain wasn’t a barrel of laughs to deal with on a personal level. Neither is Leo Mazzone, for that matter. In spite of this, both are among the best pitching coaches in recent memory, because they know their stuff and don’t let the personal get in the way of the business when they’re at the park. And how many managers have been assholes? You think Billy Martin’s players all thought he was a swell guy?
When you talk about countless hours of watching video, it seems like you’re wondering whether Bonds has the patience to do the job. After all the off-hours time he put into his own game over the years, I think it’s fairly obvious that he does, as long as he’s truly interested in the job.
To know that he’s good at analyzing mechanics and identifying and correcting flaws, all you really need to do is look at the changes to his own swing over the years. He was a formidable hitter in his Pittsburgh days, but he still had weak spots and areas of wasted motion in his swing mechanics. By the end of his career, those were all gone. He’d meticulously hunted down and eliminated them all, to the point where the scouting book on him basically just said, “Good luck.” I mean, look at this, and compare it to this.
During his second peak...
…a mistake pitch to Bonds was anything in the strike zone. By the end of his second peak, he had cut his strikeouts down to nothing while continuing to hit the ball often and hard. He had an awe-inspiring run at the end. He even compiled a >1.000 ops when he was 42. I always find claims about steroids making Bonds the hitter he was incredible.
s.zielinski
Barry Bonds was a top 5 all time talent
before steriods. It’s a shame he couldn’t recognize that
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
small ball(s).
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 1, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno ...
Barry had one huge advantage he could never impart to the players he’d try to coach: He was being coached by major-league players from the time he could walk. I don’t believe in that “bloodlines” stuff much, but I DO think that if you’ve been in major-league dugouts since you were 3 and you grow up learning how major-leaguers walk and talk and hit and think from actual major-leaguers, that puts you lightyears ahead of normal human beings whose fathers weren’t outstanding ballplayers. I think it would be frustrating for him to try to impart literally a lifetime of hitting knowledge to mere mortals.
And maybe not.
Nevertheless, I think he’s radioactive in MLB until his legal troubles are resolved. I mean, it seems to me like he finally got blackballed as a player, unless you can tell me there aren’t a half dozen teams right now who could improve their DH spots with a 46-some-year-old Barry Bonds.
"it seems to me like he finally got blackballed as a player"
Probably, yeah. No other rational explanation.
I wonder about the money
Pure speculation, but IIRC he never had a public or (known) private break with the Giants, and he’s certainly not blackballed there. So, if he wants to play, couldn’t he play for them for league minimum*?
I understand why SF wouldn’t couldn’t sign him to another huge contract – it was fucking up their payroll something fierce. And I understand why he wouldn’t want to play for league minimum – I’m not calling him greedy. I’m just wondering if the situation is that he actually could play for SF, but that there’s no financial accommodation, and that’s that.
I agree that it’s a de facto blackball elsewhere, although, again, if he wanted to get paid full value, then you’re only talking about a market of, what, 5-6 teams? Point being, you don’t need collusion of 30 owners if 20+ of them don’t have a say in it. I wonder whether, if he made known that he’d play for league minimum plus some playing time incentives, he might find someone willing to put up with the circus and reputational hit.
- Why league minimum? It’s symbolic. If he’s not going to get market value, which SF can’t afford, then he might as well earn good will (and help the team) by making a point about his salary vs. his love of the game. See the $1 salaries of Bloomberg and Jobs.
So, if he wants to play, couldn’t he play for them for league minimum*?
No. He publicly offered to do this several years ago, and there were no takers.
Teams have shied away, not wanting to deal with the glare of attention Bonds would bring. The outfielder, who turns 44 on July 24, has been offered by Borris to all 30 teams for a prorated share of the $390,000 minimum.
Borris said Bonds even would play for free — offering to donate whatever salary he receives to purchase tickets for children.
“The fact that no team in Major League Baseball has made an offer for Barry even at the minimum salary has created a level of suspicion that is currently being investigated,” Borris said. -The Associated Press, June 25, 2008
Huh. Missed that.
Yeah, OK, collusion. Pretty obvious.
I remain surprised that the Giants didn’t take him.
-1
All this says to me is that his baggage makes him extremely undesirable. I completely understand that. What team do you think is making a mistake by not signing him?
by my dixie wrecked on Oct 30, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Any of them.
In Bonds’s last season, 2007, he put up a .276/.480/.565 batting line. Sixth in the NL in raw OPS. The man could still play at a very high level.
He had baggage? Sure. But other guys who had high-profile PED situations and reputations as difficult personalities have gotten deals since then, even if they weren’t half the hitter that he was. The Royals signed Jose Guillen to three years at $12M per in the 2007-2008 offseason. Guillen has exactly the same negatives that Bonds does, without having a tenth or the talent, and yet they preferred him at thirty times the annual salary. I wonder why that is? Gary Sheffield also has exactly the same negatives as Bonds, and yet he was still able to keep trotting out there every day through 2009.
To say nothing of the idea of Bonds’s baggage being a deal-breaker in a league where the Nats were perfectly happy to employ a violent psychopath like Elijah Dukes. When was the last time Bonds got arrested for assault, or threatened to go to a school and murder children? Contrasted with that kind of bullshit, what’s a lounge chair in the clubhouse?
Not to mention
a certain quarterback who is far more revered than reviled for his escapades as long as the Stillers keep winning.
The problem for an NL team as I see it would be where to play Bonds, if you already have an effective first baseman (and there’s nothing that says Barry would be a remotely good first baseman), understanding as I believe I do that his legs are not so good. You almost certainly don’t want him in the outfield. Plus you’d have to pencil him out of 30-40 games a year (he was playing about 130 with the Giants at the end). This is why I think the blackball is not quite as ludicrous in the NL as in the AL., where he could DH.
Nevertheless, he’s just 38 homers shy of 800, and two even decent part-time seasons would get him that, and I bet he’d like to get there, so maybe he’d commit to learning first base and be decent at it if he got the chance to play again.
Hell, he could still probably hit for another 5-10 years. What’s the old story about Ty Cobb, when he was an old man someone asked what he thought he could hit in that time period’s MLB, and Cobb said (I’m approzimating) maybe .310. “Only .310?” the questioner asked, and Cobb said something like, “Well, you have to remember I’m 75” or whatever he was.
I tell lousy anecdotes. I should look them up. Too bad there’s not, like, some computer network that lets you do that instantly.
Every AL team should have grabbed him as a DH; every NL team should have grabbed him as a PH. Baseball is very different from the other three major sports, it’s all about individual matchups: specifically, hitter vs. pitcher. I don’t think having a controversial guy would affect the chemistry of the team in a way that translates into losses. He would provide a major hitting upgrade for any team, especially when he said he was willing to play at a Major League minimum salary.
I would welcome Bonds with open arms.
Indictments mean nothing. Hitting coaches aren’t particularly important. Bonds could hit, and even if he can’t teach it we can fire him for making a 67 win team a 66 win team.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
But ya know...
Bonds would just leave through free agency in seven years. I mean he’d be hitting coach for a little while, but then he’d get more money with the Giants or Yankees or Braves as hitting coach. You know, contenders.
by IAPiratesFan on Oct 31, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
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