AP: Russell Taking The Fall For Huntington
by Charlie Wilmoth on Oct 4, 2010 5:14 PM EDT
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PrintThere's already a fanpost about this AP piece by Alan Robinson, but since it's pretty likely to be widely quoted, I'll add a couple of comments.
Is this supposed to be reporting? And if so, how should I square that with comments like this?
While Russell was fired, general manager Neal Huntington was retained despite making a succession of poor trades and questionable moves that have left the Pirates with one of the majors’ least-talented teams—a pattern that began long before either arrived in Pittsburgh.
Are these supposed to be facts? There's no doubt that the Pirates are currently one of baseball's least-talented teams, but it's far from clear, at this point, that Huntington's trading record has been poor. He acquired mostly younger players, so it's not a surprise that the Pirates' record got worse, but that doesn't make the trades themselves bad. We've debated the trades ad nauseam, so I won't belabor this here, but for every Huntington trade that looks bad (and there certainly are some - Bay, Gorzelanny, Bautista), I can name one that, at this point in time, looks good (Nady/Marte, Dotel, McLouth, Wilson/Snell).
And by the way - the McLouth and Wilson/Snell trades have turned out well so far, in that the Pirates got something (Jeff Locke, Nathan Adcock, a vaguely-functional starting shortstop in Ronny Cedeno) for nothing. Which leads to this:
Russell’s first team in 2008 was competitive until midseason, when the franchise—eager to stockpile a talent-bereft farm system—began dealing away or cutting productive players such as Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson, Nate McLouth, Adam LaRoche, Matt Capps, John Grabow, Tom Gorzelanny, Ian Snell, Sean Burnett and Nyjer Morgan. Also traded was 2010 major league home run leader Jose Bautista during a two-year roster purge.
How many of those players are still productive? Would the Pirates have been better off this season with all those players but without Ross Ohlendorf, Jose Tabata, Joel Hanrahan, and Lastings Milledge? Maybe, but the difference would be slight - Wilson, Nady, Snell and McLouth are close to worthless, and Bay and Morgan are coming off awful seasons. And that's not even considering that several of the traded players would have been free agents after 2009 anyway, and that the Pirates acquired a bunch of young players who haven't gotten to the majors yet. The Pirates were going to be terrible no matter what, so they might as well have picked up a few young players who might be able to help in the future. The Bucs' decision to rebuild was a no-brainer. You can argue about the way they did it, but I can't believe someone who is paid to write about the team still isn't convinced it was a good idea.
I half-expected this article to end with, "And that is why Neal Huntington should go jump off a bridge." I don't agree with Robinson's opinions, but even that isn't the point - the point is that this is supposed to be a news article.
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I couldn't agree more.....
I read the article and was amazed. Straight opinion and not with much foundation. I was looking for a way to comment on it or respond to the author, but only saw the AP newswire line. Also thought the “deal away or cutting” line was a bit silly as Capps was the only player non-tendered.
The Hammer Speaks
Twitter: @hammerspeaks
While Huntington did ship out talent
He had nothing to do with the flat out lack of fundamental play by the players.
Had the same thoughts
I read this on AP via Yahoo. Obviously this wasn’t edited for bias and is essentially an opinion piece. I think these stories are often written by reporters in the city and then sold and delivered via AP as pool reports. This doesn’t look Dejan’s writing to me, anyone have any guesses who wrote it?
Yinzers uber alles
hey charlie
What was wrong with my satire piece on the pirate parrot being lent go.
"sale the team" sweetleb
just venturing a guess
but i bet it was too stupid to live
by johnnycuff on Oct 4, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
105 loses
there the foundation, huntington should be fired. amazing you guys missed the least talented part isn’t huntington responsible for the talent.
"sale the team" sweetleb
shhhh! if we ignore it and act dead, it might go away…
or crap our pants – I think I heard that somewhere…
by BlindSquirrel on Oct 4, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it supposed to be an Op Ed piece?
If so, then I haven’t much to say — the guy is entitled to his opinion. The problem is that nothing in the presentation signals the reader that he/she is reading Op Ed. It is instead offered as a news story. Poor form at the very least.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
I'll never forget
How competitive the Pirates were in 2008. So competitive! Definitely would have made a playoff run if Huntington hadn’t traded productive player Ian Snell at the 2009 Trade Deadline.
Huh?
elvishasleft.com
bestweekever.tv
The AP has kind of been going to hell for a while now.
Still, it’s disappointing to see this kind of stuff.
At least it's just baseball
The AP is pretty notorious these days for injecting a good bit of opinion into more important news stories as well.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly
Its been pretty bad
for a while now actually, you’re right. I’ve been trying to avoid AP stories because of it, but it is harder than one would think
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
It's easy....
If you just ignore most of the world.
I do it all the time, I’m not very well informed, but at least I avoid the stupid part of the news.
by IAPiratesFan on Oct 4, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
This guy should be hung in public square.
For making this out to be a factual piece of news.
Journalism
Alan, if you want to write an article criticizing the Pirates.
Do it. There is a lot to be critical of.
But why don’t you actually interview people?
Why don’t you attribute information to sources?
I guess you missed that day in journalism school.
Which is basically everyday...
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Fact check time:
Russell’s first team in 2008 was competitive until midseason, when the franchise—eager to stockpile a talent-bereft farm system—began dealing away or cutting productive players…
To begin, that team wasn’t “competitive.” Not by a long shot. By mid-May, the closest they were to .500 was one game under. On the day they traded Nady and Marte to the Yankees, they were seven games below .500.
Now, let’s look at the “productive” players mentioned:
Jason Bay—Bay hit .282/.375/.519 in Pittsburgh that season, and .293/.370/.527 in Boston for the remainder of the season. The following season, he hit.267/.384/.537 and hit .259/.347/.402 with the Mets in 2010. One productive player, but not worth $16 million a season.
Xavier Nady—Hit .330/.383/.535 in Pittsburgh and .268/.320/.474 with the Yankees in ‘08. Played only seven games in 2009 after having Tommy John surgery. Last season with the Cubs, he managed .256/.306/.353 in 347 PA. You’d have to twist my arm very, very hard to say he’s productive.
Freddy Sanchez—Freddy hit .296/.334/.442 with the Pirates and .284/.295/.324 in just 25 games with the Giants. This past season, he hit .292/.342/.397 in 111 games. Decent, but not productive if you miss that time.
Jack Wilson—Jumpin’ Jack Flash hit .267/.304/.387 in 75 games with the Prates and .224/.263/.299 in 31 games with the Mariners. In 61 games this past season, he hit .249/.282/.316. Even if you considered his defense, his numbers alone aren’t productive.
Nate McLouth—With the Pirates and Braves in ‘09, he hit .256/.352/.436. 2010 saw a line of .190/.298/.322 in 85 games. McLouth has terrible defense. If Robinson considers this “productive,” he must think America’s public schools are other-worldly.
Adam LaRoche—He hit .278/.357/.487 in 2009 (His BA was far lower with the Pirates), and .261/.320/.468 in 2010. I’ll be merciful to Robinson and not include LaRoche’s strikeout totals.
Matt Capps—I can’t find how many blown saves he had in 2009, so I’ll point to his -1.1 WAR. He rebounded nicely with the Nationals and Twins for a 1.8 WAR, but calling him “productive” is a stretch.
John Grabow—Again, sorry for oversimplifying here, but he had a combined WAR of 1.0 in 2009 anda WAR of -0.9 in 2010. For a bullpen guy, he’s alright, but bullpen guys aren’t very valuable to being with.
Tom Gorzelanny—Gorzelanny had a WAR of -.03 in 2009 and 1.8 in 2010. He’s alright for a fifth starter, but neither valuable nor productive.
Ian Snell—0.3 WAR in 2009, -1.5 in 2010. He’s been fighting issues with depression and hasn’t pitched many innings in those years. Not close to productive.
Sean Burnett—0.5 and 2.0 WAR in ’09 and ’10, respectively. Just a reliever; nothing to see here, folks…
Nyjer Morgan.307/.369/.388 in 2009 and .253/.319/.314 in 2010. And Robinson scrapes the bottom of the barrel.
So of all of the players listed, Robinson lists one productive player. And these aren’t star players you need to be competitive—they would be decent players on good teams. I can’t believe that with unemployment at 9.5%, this guy somehow has a job.
Of all those players, the only 2 I'd like to have back...
are Gorzo and Freddy, but I wouldnt went Freddy back in place of Neil Walker, wouldnt really have any place to play him if we still had him.
Gorzo ...
was the one I really hated.
I thought the Bay return could have been better.
I think the return on most of these guys was equal or NH did a little better.
In hindsight, the Bay return could have been better...
But honestly, at the time, I was super excited to get Andy Laroche, Hansen had a Hanrahan type upside, Morris was a 1st round pedigree pitcher, and Moss was just kind of a throw in. Obviously hasnt worked out, and we’ll never know for sure what else was out there, but at the time I was excited about the trade.
Bay return
It’s always easier in hindsight.
Neal has said he should have taken another offer, presumably from Tampa Bay.
I actually liked Morris and Hansen best at the time. I was hoping Hansen could find control and be a useful closer.
I figured Moss was a #4 OF. I wasn’t that wild about LaRoche. He had plenty of opportunities with the Dodgers and really squandered them.
I was really surprised that LaRoche had such a solid year in 2009. I figured I was wrong.
But then he really regressed this year. I’ll be intrigued to see what the team does with him.
Agree
I pretty much agree w/ this. I thought Moss would start to fill the void right away and become a 4th over time. He played fairly well for the Sox. Hopefully Morris can save this deal, mostly because I’m tired of hearing about it.
Yinzers uber alles
Poorly phrased
I hated the Gorzo deal, not him.
I think he’s the guy we could have used this year.
I posted repeatedly about what a dumb idea it was to trade him.
Sorry for the confusion.
I'm really confused how Alan Robinson keeps his job
if his job is to report news in the style customary of other AP articles.
The articles I’ve seen from him on the Pirates throw in falsehoods and accusations like he were trying to impress the judges at the Salem Witch Trials.
no one in the organization recognized that a minor shift in his batting stance might transform Bautista from a utilityman who never hit more than 16 homers in a season into a power hitter capable of hitting 54 homers.
Besides the fact that no one could know that, and the Jays certainly didn’t either, Bautista has said that the Pirates, and many others, did indeed try to correct the problem, which was that he wasn’t getting ready soon enough. Bautista said he didn’t quite understand what people meant by that and just never got how to change it. In the end, it did click when Cito Gaston explained it to him and worked on correcting it.
Good for them, and it certainly speaks to the excellent instruction that has been going on in Toronto. But it is just flat wrong to say the Pirates didn’t notice the problem and wrong to infer that the Jays expected any more than an upside of 20-25 HRs.
Russell was forced to repeatedly write out lineup cards that included players playing out of position, such as catcher-turned-first baseman Jeff Clement, or who clearly didn’t belong in the majors, including offseason pickup Aki Iwamura.
These two things are incredibly wrong and misleading. The first implies that Jeff Clement wasn’t an acceptable defensive first baseman, which is absolutely false. Clement didn’t hit. He would not have been "playing out of position" if he had hit well.
Aki didn’t belong in the majors, but that couldn’t have been seen before the season, and as soon as that was seen, Neil Walker was quickly put at second in the minors and pretty much brought up as soon as he was deemed ready.
The article is filled with outright lies and twisted facts like these. Sadly, this has become commonplace in the articles I’ve seen Robinson write about the Pirates. Basically, Robinson is just a yinzer with a better understanding of sentence structure.
I've not seen where Jose Bautista said the Pirates tried to change him
I’ve just seen Neal Huntington make that claim.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I read another article that made it clearer that he heard it while with the Pirates, but in this article it just says he had heard it from coaches many times before but he never understood it until with Toronto.
That article refers to Bautista’s “above average defense at several positions.” UZR thinks the Canadian Press are very funny people.
His defense is good in Canada.
His defence, unfortunately, sucks.
Well,
DK refers to Walker’s solid defense and ridicules the Pirates’ FO for not recognizing that he could play a solid middle infield defensively.
No mention of the fact that the early returns may indicate Walker is not actually that suited for middle infield long term.
by MarkInDallas on Oct 4, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
DK’s comments about Walker have been badly off base. Apart from the fact that he’d never played second before, there was the little problem of his bat, which until this year never showed any sign that it was ready for the majors.
DK off base?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.movieactors.com/photos/casablanca145.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.movieactors.com/actors/clauderains.htm&usg=2sp5HjXFOCtQBkYRvmQQH73J4Qw=&h=216&w=288&sz=18&hl=en&start=0&sig2=bTiAhVGxMiOw-v-4xtaRVw&zoom=1&tbnid=-8EZyHvMiiMS5M:&tbnh=154&tbnw=205&ei=fo2qTKGAFcKFnQeSanABg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dclaude%2Brains%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1345%26bih%3D484%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=387&vpy=132&dur=1958&hovh=172&hovw=230&tx=123&ty=73&oei=fo2qTKGAFcKFnQeS_anABg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0
It's funny....
I find it humorous that people (like Bob Smizik, who’s written more blog entries on Bautista this year than on any individual Pirate) try to hold up Jose Bautista as an example of a mistake made by the Pirates.
Even national guys like Peter Gammons (who was interviewed today on one of the local Pittsburgh stations – I think it was The Fan) shrugged it off when the interviewers asked him about the Pirates misjudging Bautista. Gammons responded by saying that FOUR teams didn’t think enough of him to keep him during the Rule 5 year AND he mentioned something that I hadn’t heard before. Even the Blue Jays didn’t think much of him either, Gammons said that the Blue Jays waived Bautista and that the Red Sox claimed him, but the management of the Red Sox changed their mind and decided they didn’t want to add him to the payroll at that time, so he went back to the Blue Jays for this season. So that’s SEVEN teams in baseball (including the Blue Jays themselves) that had no idea that he would hit 50 HRs in a season.
that guy in boston
who traded babe ruth to yankees can stop turning in his grave. thank you neil huntington !!!!
57-105 come on "sale the team"
plus the BJs, i mean the blue jays
hit the 5th most homers in a season ALL TIME this year. coincidence? just sayin…
bautista comes back to PNC full time? 20hrs? maybe?
talk about
shooting the messenger, robinson can write anything he wants to about the pirates and you can disagree. but did he mention 105-57 did he check that fact…..
jokem if they can't take a fuck
He actually originally wrote 57-103.
So, I guess the answer is, no. The total was updated later, probably after it was noticed by the unwashed hordes who can count. The other factual mistakes, however, have not been corrected.
If he wants to write opinion ...
that’s great. Make your argument and support it with facts.
But don’t pass your bias off as a news story.
Seriously -
with the Bucs being as bad as they were, was anybody expecting something other than a hatchet job?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
+1
The Sports department is the playpen for Journalists (for better or worse) and the Pirates beat is where you go when you need a time out. I don’t think the next Ernie Pyle of Edward R Murrow is going to be assigned to the Pirates.
Yinzers uber alles
Charlie is on the money - but let me add that the 3 holdover players the Pirates didn't trade
were bloody awful too: Duke, Dohmit, Maholm
So I take it what Robinson is saying is that, if you have a lousy manager on a team with lousy players, you should keep the manager and try to provide him with better players.
I think he's saying that the bigger problem is the lousy players
He has to be right about that, no?
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
This is correct
and no one with argue with you.
However, as mentioned before, there is no either/or scenario. While Russell was given a poor choice of players, he still insisted on batting Ryan Church fifth in the lineup for a good month, when he was brought in only to be a player off of the bench.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Glad to see
my time reading on yahoo has paid off for something for us all to take shots at. well done charlie.
the whole blame on NH is really what set me off on this piece
Sadly this is what much of journalism has come to. Very little research and critical analysis, and a lot of opinion. Maybe it began in the ’80’s with deregulation. My frustration with how a guy like Robinson covers the Pirates can be multiplied by a factor of 10 when it comes to how much of the national media covers politics.
Deregulation?
I’m confused. No one ever regulated the newspaper industry.
The problem is that its business model collapsed. As a result, you have a few reporters trying to do too much.
And you have a bunch of one-person AP offices.
Reading the article,
it makes me long for the well-reasoned, well-researched, objective, dispassionate, sensible posts by BFD1.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
nutting better un-load soon
Or the may be on sale 50% off, he’s already botch up the sale to burkle by signing a 7 yr. tv contract duh!!! , That was the real reason burckle wanted the pirates ,to have summer programing for his all sports channel. You see they would have tried to increase team revenue.
jokem if they can't take a fuck
Here's another thing about NH
Okay, so there’s Alvarez and Taillon and maybe Rendon, the rewards of sucking, who may turn out to be good or may not. What else has NH collected?
The best players from the trade acquisitions are pretty bland. I mean, I said all along that Tabata was a polished looking but ultimately ordinary 300/350/400 corner outfielder, and he finished a bit worse than that. That’s not a championship piece; it’s an acceptable role player on a championship team, perhaps, if there are other championship pieces. Ohlendorf is a pile of suck for the first half and okay for the second half. MacDonald looks okay, although, for all the hype, he still wasn’t extraordinarily effective, and we’ll have to see how that turns out. Locke performed well in AA for half a season, while Morris fell apart, but we’ve seen half a season in the majors before; now the standards are so low that we take half a season in the mid-minors as an acceptable return for two full years of roster churn.
Then Walker and McCutchen are Littlefield acquisitions, as are the best minor league pitching and hitting prospects, Owens and Marte. Sanchez is a suck-pile that people have somehow yet to figure out is a suck-pile — at best, a back-up MLB catcher.
Any evidence for that ‘suck-pile’ comment? Or are you just being obtuse for no real reason?
Thank you Ned Colletti.
57-105 case closed
jokem if they can't take a fuck
What does that have to do with Tony Sanchez? Are you an idiot? I’m not saying that pejoratively, I’m actually asking.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
by ryebr3ad on Oct 4, 2010 9:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
nope
I stand by my comment 57-105
57-105 come on "sale the team"
That’s the funniest post in the whole thread. It reminds me of the scene in Spinal Tap where Nigel Tufnel is telling the director that his amplifier goes to 11. The director asks him why they don’t just make “10” louder. Nigel stares blankly for a moment and responds, “But this goes to 11.”
by WTM on Oct 4, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was thinking more
of David St. Hubbins: It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever.
(Actually, my memory of the movie is that David says, “It’s such a fine line between stupid and … umm, uhhh …” and someone else has to finish the line for him. Which if you think about it is funnier.)
So you agree with me in saying that you have testicles for brains.
This is an undebatible fact, by the way.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
by ryebr3ad on Oct 4, 2010 10:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I thought it was shit
I guess I was wrong
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Oct 4, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
suckpile? a player youve never even seen play...
yinzers should really just shut up and stop reproducing… seriously.
You also refer to Tabata being an ordinary outfielder like he isn’t 21 years old. If he were 27 we’d be having a problem.
I know this is an obvious set up for some jack-ass to say “DERP DERP HE PROBABWY IS 27 DERP DERP”, so let’s get that out of the way.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
When he's 27
He’ll still be hitting under 10 home runs, but he damn sure won’t be stealing 19 bases.
When a guy is that polished and that rotund, there’s not much room for the kind of improvement everyone hopes he’ll have.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but he'd agree that Sanchez won't make it after what happened to him
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Did the beaning of Sanchez affect his vision in any way?
I’m sure we would’ve read about that if that were the case.
It’s not. There were only 7 qualified outfielders in the majors that hit .300 this year. I’m pretty sure I’d be thrilled with that from Tabata.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Tabata's OPS was .746
His OPS+ was 102. For a corner outfielder, that’s pretty ordinary. No one builds teams around guys with .750 OPS.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
And you don’t possibly think Tabata, at 21 years old, has no chance to improve? In your mind, this guy has peaked in his major league career already.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
I follow you on the twitter
in case you were wondering who the random guy with a interstate road sign as his avatar was
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
.600?
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Oct 4, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess ...
you failed to realize that he nearly returned this year.
What are you talking about?
I don’t know if your point is that when Tabata is 27, he won’t be able to steal bases because he’s too old…but Juan Pierre is 33 and just led the majors in steals. I’m pretty sure Tabata will remain a solid base runner into his 30s.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
I;ve read a bunch of experts who disagree
If you have trouble keeping your shape at 21, you’re not going to steal bases at 25.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Who are these “experts” and where has this been said?
Look at the ages of the stolen base leaders this year.
33, 29, 27, 29, 36, 27, 32, 34, 29
Pretty sure Tabata will be able to steal 20-30 bases a year for quite some time.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Bobby Abreu thinks your “experts,” if they actually exist, are empty-headed wipers of other people’s bottoms.
by WTM on Oct 4, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Can you use photoshop ...
and put Smizik’s face on one of them?
I thought one of them WAS Smizik
Not sure which one, though.
by WTM on Oct 4, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
He would be
the one on the far right.
by RichieHebner on Oct 6, 2010 12:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Also, no love for Joel Hanrahan, one of the most effective reliever this season?
Your ordinary praise of McDonald is embarrasing as well, considering he had a sub-four ERA during his time with the Pirates all while having a David Priceian K-rate.
I can keep on going.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
Hanrahan?
Yeah, that’s a difference-maker.
MacDonald runs hot and cold, but apart from a couple of outings, he mostly struggled with control on his change and curve. I’ll be shocked if he can put together a full season. Besides, the way I read the stories at the time, Russell was the one who really wanted MacDonald, not NH, yet here we are throwing Russell under the bus and praising NH . . . again.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Hanrahan....
had a 2.62 FIP, a 12.92 K/9, and a 1.4. That’s pretty good.
He struck out ONE HUNDRED batters…in less than 70 IP.
Also, where did you read that Russell (not Huntington) wanted MacDonald? That seems fishy.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly
It was all over the papers at the time of the trade
Russell kept raving like a madman when teh trade went down that he’d wanted him on his team ever since he watched him mow down a sorry lot of hopeless Bucs a year ago.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
What I mean is...
That doesn’t mean that Huntington didn’t want him as well.
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly
I’m pretty sure Russell would have wanted to have Sabathia, Halladay, Gavin Floyd, Carpenter, Jimenez and any other pitcher who’s mowed down the Pirates roster in the last few years on his team too.
Doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. But the fact that we got McDonald essentially for free, as the Dodgers no longer have Dotel, was superb work by NH.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
GD IT!
Will someone EVER post a link? I’ve no idea who this magical Mrs Russell is!
Time is running out now that he’s got the arse.
by BlindSquirrel on Oct 5, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't find one
I’m sure someone somewhere has a picture of her.
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
oh well
This particular bout of lechery will pass when he’s gone.
by BlindSquirrel on Oct 6, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Which was the game that had the auction?
She was one of the wives helping out with that on camera.
by MarkInDallas on Oct 5, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It was in either June or July
so what where the home series for those two months
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Oct 5, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you ever link?
Where is the link on Russell wanting McDonald and NH not wanting him?
not every player NH aquires will be a star player
it doesnt work that way. you field a team the best way you can, and mcdonald and tabata WOULD START FOR ALOT OF OTHER TEAMS, $#@!
Sanchez is a suck-pile that people have somehow yet to figure out is a suck-pile — at best, a back-up MLB catcher.
So how have you managed to figure out that Sanchez is a “suck-pile”? His .870 OPS would have been 2nd in the Florida State League if he’d had enough ABs to qualify for the batting title.
What exactly are you basing this…interesting opinion on?
He didn't hit a home run for the last month or more
And didn’t hit a home run on the road, and was generally pathetic on the road, and he’s a fourth overall draft pick who was, in spite of all of this, stil struggling to pop the ball in A-ball when he got his face smashed in.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahh, so it’s home runs that matter. Not his .870 OPS, a compiling of all offensive statistics that are important. No, it’s because he didn’t hit home runs.
Because that’s all catchers are known to do is hit home runs.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
If there’s any team that knows how much an offensive catcher means to a team, its us. Doumit is an offensive catcher that hits home runs and how’d that work out? Sanchez is much better known for his defense, and if there’s one position on the field I’m more than willing to sacrifice offense for defense, it’s catcher. Catcher uses his defense every pitch, all the time, while only gets 3-4 ABs a game.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
I'm confused....
Tony Sanchez has hit 11 HRs in 107 total minor league games. That equates to about 17 HRs over a full MLB season. Is 15-20 HRs not enough power from your catcher?? Is Sanchez supposed to be more of a power hitter than that to be successful??
I don’t care if he hits 5 homers, 10 homers or 20. It doesn’t matter. If he can play excellent defense and call solid games for our pitchers, that’s what I want.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
That makes sense
If you define “call solid games” as wave a wand and turn Paul Maholm into Steve Carlton. Otherwise, I think you’re overvaluing defense more than a bit.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t.
Ryan Doumit couldn’t play defense and I’m pretty damn sure he cost us more games with his awful defense than won with offense. When Walker, Alvarez, McCutchen and Tabata develop more as major league hitters, that’s a very solid top 4 and will score runs. Defense at the catcher and shortstop positions is much more important than offense.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Sanchez is universally regarded
As an plus-plus defender behind the plate
Santa Roberto Clemente
Ora Pro Nobis
FireRickReilly
Even back when we drafted him, the consensus was that his defense was close to major league ready at that point. The biggest thing holding him back was his bat, and that’s fine. I don’t ever think he’ll be Joe Mauer. But if he’s going to play plus-plus defense like everyone expects and contribute a .270-.280 average, that’s great.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Sanchez frustrates me
only because he should be Wieters. I was pulling for Grant Green in the sanchez draft. I looked up his stats this year he hit 320 with 20 HR and like an 850 OPS. All of the sudden we have an up-and-coming SS and an All-star Catcher. Damnit I have DL.
I wanted Green in that draft as well
Just remember that he played in the California League this year, which is about the most hitter-friendly league in baseball. He still needs to improve his plate discipline too. But he’s a nice-looking prospect.
Just like me...
…my wife frustrates me because she should be a Victoria’s Secret model.
DL screwed the pooch on Wieters, and that horse is so far out of the barn it’s not even worth worrying about.
Also, Grant Green has an OPS of 850 and Sanchez an OPS of 820, but one is a suck pile future back-up catcher and the other is an up-and-coming SS. That makes the kind of sense that, you know, doesn’t.
Sanchez actually had a better OPS+
Given the difference in offensive context between the FSL and CL. Of course, Green came on very strong in the second half of the season when Sanchez was laid up with his injury so he’s probably the better prospect right now.
Will be very interested to see how Tony performs in the AFL.
That is certainly the player to gauge him by, because it was between Green and Sanchez, and the Pirates chose Sanchez. I agree that it will be a good test for them.
Since you tend to be the guy who knows this stuff...
…what was Green’s signing bonus?
I’m asking because while I don’t fundamentally disagree with your assertion that Green will be a good measuring stick for Sanchez, the amount of money he got as a bonus, if it was higher than Sanchez’, would have affected NH’s draft strategy of selecting higher-risk HS pitchers later in the draft and signing them for over-slot.
It didn't turn out to be that much higher
however, it was known that Green was going to hold out until the end, and Sanchez was going to sign right away. So, therefore the FO felt comfortable knowing how much they could spend on everyone else.
Also, it’s quite possible if Green had gone at #4, they would have expected more than if he went where he did.
That said...
NH insists that Sanchez is who they wanted when they figured in all the things they consider…makeup, defense, drive to succeed, etc.
Yep
I believe Boras would have gotten more if Green had been picked at 4.
Not that that should have stopped the Pirates if they thought Green was better.
Sanchez ...
would not have been my choice.
I’ve voiced concerns over his bat speed.
But he doesn’t suck offensively. He’s a good defensive player. And he’s a top 100 prospect.
Let’s not nitpick him to death.
Tony Sanchez
He hit 0 home runs and slugged .324 on the road this year. It wouldn’t be so alarming if half the Bradenton team didn’t have those kinds of home-road splits. I don’t know how to do it, but I also think he went about two months without a home run before finally hitting one right before he got beaned.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Woah....
When did HRs become the end-all, be-all of being a catcher in the minor leagues??? The guy’s got a .312 batting average so far in his career in the minors. Don’t think that kind of hitting is abundant for catchers in the minors.
I didn’t realize that Tony Sanchez had to be a home run hitter to be considered a major league catcher.
College players
Come and hit .300 in the low minors all the time. Doesn’t mean a thing.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Soooo.....
Tony Sanchez is a “suck-face” because he hits well in a hitter friendly park, hits over .300 like other college players and doesn’t hit home runs, even though he’s not a home run hitter. Which part guarantees that he’s not going to be a major league catcher???
No, ...
…he’s a “suck-pile,” not a “suck-face.”
If you are going to question the troll’s ill-informed and poorly-reasoned insult of Tony Sanchez, at least get it right when telling him he’s a moron.
by Bishop1973 on Oct 4, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The part where he can't hit for power on the road
Combined with the part where every future major league utility-man and back-up catcher has to be able to hit .300 in A-ball out of college at age 22 just to stay on track to be a future back-up/defensive specialist at catcher.
(He needs to be able to throw out more than 0% of runners at the same time, but that’s a different story.)
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
You know who else...
…didn’t hit for power on the road this year? Pedro Alvarez, with 12 homers at PNC and only 4 on the road.
Total suck pile.
And....
every major league starter and every major league star that came out of college did the same thing, so why does that doom Tony Sanchez to being a utility/back-up in the majors??
I’m having trouble following your logic.
Future stars are successful in the minor leagues.
Future utility guys are successful in the minor leagues.
Future washouts are successful in the minor leagues.
Tony Sanchez has been successful in the minor leagues.
Therefore, he’s going to be nothing more than a utility guy in the majors.
Please explain (though I think it’s going to make my head hurt….)
FSL is not a real HR-happy league
Leader had 21 and only 18 players hit double-digit HRs.
Compare to the California League, where the leader had 35 and 46 guys hit double-digits.
Judging a FSL catching prospect by his HR numbers is hilariously wrong-headed.
Except for Bradenton
Which is the point. Half that team’s home-road splits are outrageous. Combined with the reputation of that park (hitter-friendly) compared with the other parks in the FSL, and it suggests that Sanchez (like Holt and Latimore and others) was just reaping the benefits of playing in a place where the wind blows out 99% of the time.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Except you're wrong
Bradenton’s not homer heaven by any means. The Marauders top 5 HR hitters were:
Latimore: 11 home/8 road
Anderson: 5 home/6 road
Farrell: 5 home/4 road
Fryer: 4 home/4 road
Holt only hit 1 HR all year.
Wrong
McKechnie was only a modest hitter’s park this year. The park factor for HRs was 1.09, for doubles 1.02 and for hits 1.01.
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/2010_minor_league_park_multipliers/
These are 3-year weighted factors, but there’s only this year’s data available for McKechnie.
by WTM on Oct 4, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
The chart
Actually shows that Bradenton’s home field is at or near the top of all hitters’ parks overall (1.05) and in HRs (1.09) except for the high altitude parks like Albuquerque and Colorado Springs and, for whatever reason, Asheville (which is only modestly high altitude), so what’s your point?
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 5, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s not even close to being true. Did you even look at the chart? There were numerous parks rated far higher than Bradenton, many of them not in high altitude locations. Charlotte, Erie, Frederick, Greensboro, to name just a few.
I'm looking at overall (runs)
Charlotte is 1.02
Frederick is 1.05
I missed Greensboro and Erie. That’s still a lot of parks to find only three (including Asheville) that are significantly higher apart from the mile-high parks.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 6, 2010 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Overall runs doesn’t directly affect any of Sanchez’ stats. And 1.05 is only a modest hitter’s park, not enough to skew a hitter’s stats meaningfully. That’s the same as Frederick. I’ve been to Frederick countless times and there’s nothing about that ballpark that would cause me to question a hitter’s stats. Certainly there’s never been a pattern of O’s hitting prospects posting out-of-character numbers in the Carolina League.
by WTM on Oct 6, 2010 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions
WTM says it better ...
but 1.05 is meaningless.
Take a stats class.
Yeah, or maybe one season's worth of data is meaningless
What’s the confidence interval on that 1.05 after one season?
Plus, what are the confounders? After all, the same players were playing in that stadium for that entire season.
Maybe the park’s reputation is worth more than the stats from a single season with the same hitters and pitchers playing the entire season. Combine the park’s reputation with huge disparities in the OPSes of the Marauders players I followed and you can see where I would get the idea that the park makes a difference.
Anyway, this will play out and we will learn the answer. That’s what makes it so much fun. Obviously, I have low expectations for Sanchez. I expect he will either flame out altogether or end up a back-up and defensive specialist. Y’all seem to have him penciled into the line-up as a key contributer. Good luck with that. We’ll see who wins.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 6, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Also
There are 9 MLB parks with a 2010 runs factor of 1.05 or greater. Using your logic, we should toss out the home stats for everyone who played at Coors Field, Yankee Stadium, Wrigley Field, Comiskey Park, Camden Yards, The Ballpark at Arlington, Rogers Centre and Chase Field.
Does make the least bit of sense?
Not toss out
But it certainly would make sense to look at road performances of players from hitter-friendly stadiums before predicting that their power will translate to PNC. Just as it would have made made sense to be suspicious about Andy LaRoche’s minor league stats before penciling him in at 3B.
NH himself said, from on high, that he took a flyer on uber-douche Bowker because he thought his left-handed power would translate better to PNC.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 6, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL
You really enhance your credibility by calling players “uber-douche” and “suck-pile”. Taking this all a bit too personally, aren’t you?
I’ll leave this topic with two different takes on Tony Sanchez:
3) Tony Sanchez, C, Grade B: .314/.416/.454 in 59 games for High-A Bradenton. Out with broken jaw. He’s a good prospect and I think the Pirates took too much criticism for drafting him last year.
- John Sickels, minorleagueball.com
Sanchez is a suck-pile that people have somehow yet to figure out is a suck-pile — at best, a back-up MLB catcher
- Rafael Beliup
Too funny.
Ouch!
One guy says “he’s a good prospect” and notes that the Pirates took “too much” crticism for drafting him. That settles it.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 6, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
On-base percentage is more important than power. OBP is twice as important, IIRC.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 4, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's break this down by OPS
Focusing on actual “prospects” (by which I mean younger guys):
Latimore: home 889, away 652
Holt: home 985, away 671
Sanchez:: home 1070, away 660
Marte: 902, 749
Grossman: 809, 571
Non-prospects (i.e., overaged players) don’t have the same splits for whatever reason. Maybe it’s a coincidence. Maybe it’s the park. Maybe it’s psychology and the fact that pitchers tend to pitch away more in hitters parks and these young guys can’t turn on inside fastballs thrown by A-leaguers.
Either way, I’m pretty confident that this debate will go my way over the next couple of years.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 5, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
BTW
Most of Bradenton’s pitchers were better at home. Of the guys who threw 50+ innings and weren’t promoted (FSL splits no longer available for guys who were promoted), Adcock, Leach, Krol, Cox and McSwain pitched better at home, in some cases far better. Only Pribanic and Erickson (slightly) were better on the road. Bradenton just played better at home.
Obviously, this is because Adcock, Leach, Krol, Cox and McSwain are prospects and Pribanic and Erickson are non-prospects. Or maybe it’s the other way around, whatever.
One more thing
proper of you to ignore the drafting of Von Rosenburg, Allie, Cain and the signing of Heredia. Those were definitely the product of sucking, those crazy later round/Latin American amateurs.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
You are an idiot
Also, while NH didn’t draft all those players, it’s still his system that is instructing and developing those players. Considering Walker sucked up until this year, Owens was a later round pick and Marte a raw int. prospect… the development process seems to be more important than the acquisition part.
Walker sucked up until this year?
He played very well as an underaged player in AA. He struggled at first in AAA, also underaged. He was jerked around, given up on, publicly scolded, and — then — came to the Pirates’ PR rescue.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
A career .320 OBP is rather…what’s the word…pathetic.
He still doesn’t walk enough. If he ever goes into a slump and his average dips below .260, he might not get on-base enough to be an effective player in the bigs.
There are still doubts about this kid.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
For all the Walker doesn't walk enough stuff
He ended up with a higher OBP (slightly) and a lower batting average (also slightly) than Jose Tabata, yet no one complains about how much of a flop Tabata was apart from average. Plus, Walker did other things that Tabata didn’t do like, y’know, hit home runs and doubles and stuff.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
People keep saying stuff like this
But I swear that the idea that BABIP is just luck is an over-analytical intellectual construct. We’ve always kept track of walks, strikeouts, and homers. We’ve always observed that averages tend to stick with pitchers and hitters, signifying better and worse contact.
Walker smacked the ball around this year, and popped up somewhere around zero times. Why bash him?
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
People keep saying stuff like this
Because very few players can maintain a .340 BABIP. This is just a fact. Prior to this year, Walker never posted a BABIP higher than .322.
So just because we haven’t looked at something before, means we shouldn’t now? Or we should discount it now?
I'm saying the opposite
We’ve always looked at all the components that go into BABIP — those being average, strikeouts, and homeruns. We’ve also always looked at walks, the other component that goes into the related concept of FIP.
Until the over-intellectualization of baseball occurred, we still had some notion of average (average against) as a meaningful stat that, over time, reflects quality of contact.
Having combined a bunch of stats that we always considered, people now feel like it’s okay to declare the end result (whether balls in play go for hits or outs) to be the product of luck rather than quality of contact.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 5, 2010 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Having combined a bunch of stats that we always considered, people now feel like it’s okay to declare the end result (whether balls in play go for hits or outs) to be the product of luck rather than quality of contact.
I don’t see where anyone on this thread declared Walker’s results this year to be the product of luck. What I said was that Walker probably won’t post a .340 BABIP next year. I hope he does, but I’m skeptical.
Batters tend to regress to their own individual mean, so you can reasonably expect a high BABIP from guys like Ichiro and Miguel Cabrera. They have a track record of producing a high BABIP. Walker doesn’t, his BABIPs in AAA for 2008 and 2009 were .267 and .278 respectively.
In any case, Walker’s BB rate this year of 7.2% is probably good enough for him to be a useful regular even if his BABIP regresses some so it’s not a huge concern but I don’t expect him to hit .300 next year. I would guess .270/.320/.440 for Walker next year.
Maguro
I think that’s a very reasonable projection.
In fact, if you projected next year based on just MIL statistics, it would be even lower.
Walker has done better than I thought he would. I missed his development as a possibility.
But you also present a reasonable line and rationale for it. He’s not Jeff Kent yet.
We’ve always looked at all the components that go into BABIP — those being average, strikeouts, and homeruns.
First, strikeouts and homeruns are not components of BABIP.
Second, it’s also not true that BABIP is looked at as being independent of quality of contact.
Line drive rate is considered the best indicator of quality of contact, and so there is a rough formula which says .120 + LD% = xBABIP.
Walker’s LD% was .224, so .224 + .120 = .344. His actual BABIP was .340, which is right in line with the expectation.
The question is…can Walker sustain a 22% LD rate? If so, then his BABIP is likely to continue to be that high.
Walker started taking a lot more walks late in the season, after his power numbers spiked. This means that pitchers feared hard contact from him, and most importantly, he was not forcing the issue.
That’s great news and if he can keep going in that direction, he’s going to be a very good hitter for us.
by MarkInDallas on Oct 5, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You misunderstand me
Strikeouts and homeruns are the things that, when taken out of the equation, transform BA into BABIP. What I’m saying is that we’ve always looked at BA, strikeouts, and HRs, and thus always had some general notion of BABIP.
It would have been more precise if I had said that we’ve always looked at the components that go into calculating BABIP (hits, HRs, Ks, outs), but you’re gotcha point is, in this context, really very weak.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 6, 2010 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not reasonable of you to expect Mark...
…to understand what you meant to say, rather than what you actually said. The burden is on you to be clear in your explanation, right from the start.
Player A: .305/.357/.505, 18 HR, 66 RBI, 30 BB, 0 SB
Player B: .296/.349/.462, 12 HR, 66 RBI, 34 BB, 2 SB
Player A is Buster Posey, the probably NL ROY. Player B is obviously Neil Walker. Posey walked less than Walker this year and I don’t hear anyone complaining about that. Fact is, rookies in the league don’t get pitched around. They’re going to get more pitches to hit, hence the lower walk totals.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
OMG, walker was jerked around?
im sorry, but youre too special to be left alone on a puter… pardon my french, but holy shitballs!!!
Why not defend FC to the death and admit that NH sucks?
All people really like is the fact that they’ve gone over-slot on later draft picks and managed to sign Heredia. Why not credit FC with the change in resource allocation, and admit that NH’s execution sucks? It clearly does.
Ummmmm.....
How about one of Neal’s first player moves as GM of the Pirates? Stealing Evan Meek from the Rays in the Rule 5 draft
I’m guessing he’s no good either, right??
You already said it
Man “stole” a relief pitcher who was really good in low leverage situations for half a season. Wow! If Lee Flowers were a Pirate, he’d say, Cincinnati Reds: What do you think of us now?!
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Hahaha!!!
RafaelBelliache, now I know you haven’t been watching the Pirates!!! Evan Meek has a 3.02 ERA over 2 full seasons in the majors, that’s 120 appearances. Not exactly a “half a season”! Your total lack of knowledge about the Pirates is making this waaaaay too funny!!!
awww
name calling is a bit immature. I like what Raf is saying, even though I agree with none of it. At least he is giving opinions that aren’t completely unfounded.
by BlindSquirrel on Oct 4, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
It's hard to pinpoint
they just come across as more thought out than your typical shit stirrer. Don’t get me wrong – I don’t agree with much (or indeed any) of it but it’s not irrational.
by BlindSquirrel on Oct 4, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I said it to mock you, but I see you took me for serious.
I like how you quoted ‘stole’ like the deal wasn’t a steal.
Thank you Ned Colletti.
by ryebr3ad on Oct 4, 2010 9:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Just curious Rafael...
Did you (gulp) like Littlefield?
No
I thought he sucked at his job, but at least he had a likeable personality. NH sucks and is an arrogant insufferable jerk on top of it.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup...
…when I think of the guy I want to be the GM of my baseball team, I want a guy who farts sunshine and craps kittens and who smiles at everyone around him, not some arrogant insufferable jerk who might actually know what he’s doing.
Seriously, Rafael, are you butt hurt because Neal didn’t return any of your 42,000 e-mails asking why he didn’t trade Javier Lopez and Ryan Church for Albert Pujols at the deadline this year?
An arrogant jerk who actually knew something
wouldn’t be insufferable.
The arrogance is only super-offensive when it’s being used to confuse other people (people who also like feeling better than the hoi polloi) into thinking he’s competent despite every objective indication to the contrary.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a lot of fancy words...
…that say absolutely nothing.
Dude, did you catch him in bed with your wife or sister or daughter or mom or some other member of your family, because your level of sociopathic dislike for the man goes beyond any reasonable level to be expected from a fan of a given sports team for the GM of said team?
I don't see anything that resembles unreasonable given the forum
Just standard MB ranting.
Unreasonable would be a public figure like a GM publicly bashing a reporter for using anonymous sources when he says something you don’t like. Unreasonable would be publicly scolding a minor league player for not running out an infield fly (and then running back into the line-up an uber-douche you traded for who didn’t run out a pop-up that was actually dropped). Unreasonable would be permitting a 29-year-old with a JD and an MBA run off a successful and highly regarded minor league manager (and, you know, baseball man) for not being down with his control-freak program for extra ground ball work.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahhh, there's the anti-intellectualism I was waiting for.
Kyle Stark and Neal Huntington aren’t Baseball Men. That’s the problem.
(Stupid Red Sox, permitting a 29 year-old with a JD lead them to their first World Series in 86 years . . . )
stop your wasting your time
there wearing there warm-up suits and Nike’s tonight ,waiting for the mother ship behind the comet.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
And my butt hurts
Because the Pirates flipped their entire team in two years and all they have to show for it is a corner outfielder with a .750 OPS, a pitcher who sucks for half a season before transforming himself into average, and a pitcher who may make the majors as an average starter in two more years.
For all of the notorious flops of past GMs, no other rebuild failed to bring back a single All Star caliber player.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
There were...
…no previous rebuilds. There were pathetic attempts to win at the major-league level with stop-gaps and past-their-prime free agents while completely ignoring the minor leagues.
And saying that DL brought back All-Star Caliber talent, I am assuming you mean Jason Bay, who was unheralded at the time of the trade and only developed over time, which apparently you are unwilling to allow a 21-year-old Jose Tabata to do.
I'm sorry, I thought we were being realistic
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 4, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
No, that went out the window with your assumption that, at 21, Tabata is as good as he’s going to get.
by WTM on Oct 4, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You must have some amazing seer skills....
The Pirates received 20 guys in those trades who have yet to be given a real shot in the major leagues (either still in the minors or only been September call-ups). Seems waaaaaaaay too early to write off the GM’s track record.
The only problem is that Neal Huntington has already received one All-Star in a trade. Evan Meek. Oops. Try again.
Wait, there's more.....
A few more All-Stars in addition to Evan Meek….
Erik Kratz – 2010 International League All-Star signed by Neal Huntington
Bryan Morris – 2010 Futures All-Star Game – U.S. Team – received in an NH trade
Tony Sanchez – 2010 Futures All-Star Game – U.S. Team – drafted by NH
Pedro Ciriaco – 2010 Futures All-Star Game – World Team – received in an NH trade
Gorkys Hernandez – 2010 Futures All-Star Game – World Team – received in an NH trade
Chase D’Arnaud – 2010 Eastern League All-Star – drafted by NH
Matt Hague – 2010 Eastern League All-Star – drafted by NH
Josh Harrison – 2010 Eastern League All-Star – received in NH trade
Noah Krol – 2010 FSL All-Star – signed by NH
Jeff Locke – 2010 FSL All-Star – received in a trade by NH
Ramon Cabrera – 2010 SAL All-Star – signed by NH
David Rubenstein – 2010 SAL All-Star – drafted by NH
Aaron Baker – 2010 SAL All-Star – drafted by NH
Matt Curry – 2010 NYP All-Star – drafted by NH
Adalberto Santos – 2010 NYP All-Star – drafted by NH
But, you’re right Rafael, other than those 16 All-Stars, Huntington hasn’t brought any All-Stars into the system…..
(And I only looked at this year’s All-Star rosters….there’s probably a few more from the last few years)….
D'Arnaud was also a 2009 SAL All-Star
I know I was at the game, he played some good defense in that game, also hit a double that was smoked in the Right-Center gap
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Oct 4, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
thats alot of
second division talent,sanchez and morris may make it to the show. the rest more likely won’t sniff the majors.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
Ciriaco finished the season with the big team
Kratz is no longer in the org. D’Arnaud will make it, he a much, much, much better fielder than Cedeno. Gorkys will make it at some point as well.
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
new manager . . .
. . . Sid Bream
It’s like one big episode of Lost
WE HAVE TO GO BACK!
And the new hitting coach....
the man who currently is the hitting & catching coach of the DSL Mets…….Francisco Cabrera……
Reverse the Curse!!!!
barry bonds
can start the first episode with a 22 hopper to home plate.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
Not to bring up a sore subject.....
But, I’m actually surprised that Jose Lind doesn’t get vilified more for his error. In reality, Cabrera should never have gotten to the plate. In fact, if Lind makes the play, then Brian Hunter’s pop-up is the 3rd out, and the Pirates are in the World Series. Alright, I’ve got to stop, just talking about it makes me angry….
I totally blame Lind.
It was like Bill Buckner. Only worse because Jose Lind was a fairly competent defensive 2B.
by IAPiratesFan on Oct 4, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree....
It’s just interesting to me that more people point to the ineffectiveness of Bonds/Van Slyke or the offline throw by Bonds, but I mean, Buckner got death threats and was booed mercilessly after that. It seems that Lind got off without the scorn of Pirates fans (not that I wish him any ill will!!!!)
Sometimes, I tend to to forget that the 1992 team was without Bobby Bonilla. Can you imagine taking one of the best hitters out of just about any lineup today and the team still winning its division without missing a beat? Obviously didn’t hurt to have Bonds & Van Slyke still around (and Jeff King wasn’t a total slouch as the new full-time 3rd baseman). At the time, we were getting spoiled by the success, but, boy those teams were pretty incredible.
The Mets were funny.
The go along and get Bonilla and what happens? The go from 77-85 in 1991 to 72-90 in 1992.
by IAPiratesFan on Oct 4, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not too late to track down Jose
and start making some death threats.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Jim Leyland
blames, of all people, Cecil Espy. Seriously.
I blame Jim Leyland. A manager today would get cremated for not using his closer in that situation. Even a mediocre closer like Belinda should have been able to get three outs without allowing three runs 90% of the time, IF he started the inning with the bases empty. Hell, he almost got out of it bases loaded and none out anyway.
But Leyland didn’t trust ANYBODY in his bullpen to get three outs with the World Series on the line*. No one. How does a championship team get to that situation? How does a manager get to that situation?
*—Unless he was just trying to man’s-man Drabek, who’d gotten hammered in his previous two starts in the series, by letting him finish
I agree with you both
It did seem Belinda was squeezed.
I don’t think Leyland trusted him at all. As I recall, he struggled late in the year.
But I’m also not sure why the Bucs didn’t get one more RP at the deadline.
Belinda
made 59 regular-season appearances that year and gave up three earned runs twice. He never gave up more than three. If you check his game logs here
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=belinst01&t=p&year=1992
he wasn’t anything like awful in the 2 1/2 weeks before the playoffs. He pitched eight innings down the stretch with three hits and two earned runs. Also, FWIW, Belinda finished his career with 10.2 postseason innings with one earned run.
I know he wasn’t lights out, but I just don’t see in his record why Leyland didn’t trust him. But even if he didn’t, Bob Patterson pitched quite well that year, he had Roger Mason as an OK option, and hell, even Wakefield could have thrown an inning. Most of the Braves couldn’t touch him all series.
You simply cannot, as a manager, allow your team to get to a situation where you hold a 2-0 lead and need three outs to get to the gorram WORLD SERIES and you look out at your bullpen and think to yourself, “Nah, I would rather send my gassed starter out there another inning than bring in a single one of these assclowns fresh.” That’s just mind-blowing when you look at it that way. Hell, less than 20 years later, most managers would rather be set afire than let Drabek pitch the eighth in that situation, much less the ninth.
And.....
To think that the Pirates let both Jim Gott & Bill Landrum walk out as free agents in years prior to that (Landrum left that spring, Gott after the ’89 season)…..
It would have been interesting to see either or those two on in the 9th, if it would have made much difference…..
Let them leave over money?
So it was Nutting’s fault!!!!
by WTM on Oct 5, 2010 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions
It's been a while ...
but I seem to recall that the Cards made Lee Smith available at the trade deadline.
I remember thinking, “He could help.”
He was on the decline and not the same pitcher he was a few years prior.
But he was still good. Like I said, the team needed one more arm in the pen that Leyland trusted.
I don’t think Belinda was terrible. But if your manager doesn’t have confidence in you, that’s a problem.
Don't disagree.
Do you have his splits after the all-star break? Again, it’s been 18 years. I forget things. I get things confused.
But I seem to recall that he was struggling a bit later in the season. I scanned the game logs and it does seem he got hit hard in August.
I can see starting the 9th with Drabek. He had pitched well. But I may have given him one batter.
Bbref has his splits. He had a really bad May and mediocre July. Looks like he pitched well the rest of the time. First half was slightly better than second. Well, ERA-wise, more than slightly better.
It's true
that many of his splits trended worse after the break — ERA, WHIP, K/9. They certainly weren’t Mike Williams/Jose Mesa bad — we had no idea back then how bad your closer could be — but he wasn’t REAL good. But in the game logs it looks to me like he had the standard closer’s profile: decent stretches of being very good punctuated by short stretches where he struggled. He had a couple of those after the break that shot his numbers up somewhat.
But here’s the thing: You don’t have enough confidence in a guy to use him to start an inning with no one on base, with the EFFING WORLD SERIES on the line. So when you DO decide to use him,. what do you do? Bring him in with the BASES LOADED and NOBODY OUT and the EFFING WORLD SERIES on the line! How does that make any sense?
Maybe Leyland got spoiled in that series. All three Pirates wins were complete games (two for Wakefield, one for Walk). Maybe he thought … well, I don’t know what he thought. As I mentioned above, he COULD have started the inning with Wakefield if he didn’t like anyone else in the pen. But everyone was available, with the possible exception of Walk, thanks to the complete-game wins in Games 5 and 6. Leyland used Tomlin and Neagle in relief in a couple of the blowouts, and unless Zane Smith was hurt or something I don’t recall (he didn’t pitch the entire series, after putting up an 0.61 ERA against the Braves in two starts in the 1991 NLCS), he was out there too.
I wonder if he didn’t send Drabek out there for sentimental reasons, because Drabek was the heart of the rotation for the season but got pounded in his two NLCS starts. I wonder if Leyland didn’t want him to be the one to put the team in the World Series for reasons other than that he was the best pitcher on the staff to pitch the ninth that day. If he let his heart rule out his brain, then that day Leyland was an idiot.
Now in fairness to Drabek, a couple things DID go wrong that inning that weren’t his fault. Maybe Leyland is right that Cecil Espy should have caught the leadoff fly ball, which fell for a double. And, of course, Lind took his eye off the ball to glance at the runner going to third, which was moronic. So I’m not trying to pin the subsequent disaster on Drabek. I’m saying he shouldn’t have been out there at all.
You just increased by BP 30 points ...
reliving that terrible part of Bucs’ history.
Blowing an almost guaranteed World Series appearance.
I liked Leyland. Most yes, he did mismanage the game. And the Bucs had some tough luck (and ball-strike calls).
Damn.
a (weak) defense of Robinson
the guy has to file what, 200+ articles a year. most are game stories that need some color and insight to get picked up in papers that don’t have a beat writer.
so an end-of-year piece on the Pirates firing their manager has zero interest to editors outside of Pittsburgh. it’s the equivalent of the famous contest for world’s most boring newspaper headline (the winner: “Small Earthquake in Chile, Not Many Dead”).
he’s going to add some commentary to spice it up and prompt editors perhaps run it (and generate comments like here). not saying this is a welcome trend. it should have been labeled “Analysis” or “Opinion”. but in 24/7 news cycles where most coverage is instantaneous on the web or TV, print coverage just has to change.
the complaints here all valid… but the guy is trying to adjust to the realities of a demanding and increasingly vulnerable job. wouldn’’t you do likewise?
PIRATES DUMP PARROT KEEP HUNTINGTON
Its was a fluff piece I wrote that got the boot, it’s a shame its was real cutting edge satire.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
Speaking of the parrot....
I haven’t seen that pirate mascot for a long time, did the Pirates dump him?
I don’t mind the parrot, but the pirate was just overkill.
by IAPiratesFan on Oct 4, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they did
I want to be the Parrot, random I know
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Oct 4, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Charlie...
How in the maker’s name do you stay sane having to constantly son retards like this!? The rebuilding plan is as plain as the day is long. Every few months it seems like you have to break down some nimrod’s shitty excuse for an article. Ahhhh. I’m infuriated and all I have to do is read it.
God bless you for doing it but I would have gone Norman Bates by now.
I'm getting hard on myself, sitting in my easy chair.
Nobody has to “break down” bad articles. They can be ignored. Most everyone on this site is pro-Huntington, pro-rebuilding, pro-player development, so it’s not like we need to be educated about why a mainstream piece is faulty.
pro-losing
57-105 come on “sale the team”
57-105 come on "sale the team"
How many games did the Tiger lose two years before they made it to the WS
something like 113, two years later they are in the WS. I think we are on the right track
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
It may have been
but it doesn’t change the fact that they were worse than we were this year
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Oct 6, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
sweetleb is a garden-variety troll, but RafaelBelliup does have a legitimate point: Huntington really hasn’t gotten a lot back in trades.
You can draw a distinction between players the team acquired for average-ish major league depth and the players who had star upside. Many of the depth players have been OK (Karstens, Ohlendorf, Meek, Young, Hanrahan, Cedeno, Snyder), but even some of them have flopped despite giving every indication of being at least serviceable before the Bucs got them (Clement, Robinzon Diaz, Moss, Hart, Ascanio). This side of Huntington’s ledger is unremarkable but solid; many of these guys can contribute to the next competitive Pirate team in some capacity.
Meanwhile almost none of the upside acquisitions have panned out at all yet — Milledge, LaRoche, and Morton all got long looks and failed to distinguish themselves. Tabata had a very solid age 21 season, but he hasn’t shown much star potential other than holding his own at a young age. McDonald was valuable this season, but no pitcher is a sure thing. Locke and Morris had good years, but they are both a) pitching prospects and b) very bad in 2009. All in all I think it’s fair to criticize the Pirates because they have not (yet!) hit on a single star in trades. (Saying Meek was an All-Star doesn’t really mean much in this context.) I think Huntington would agree that he missed more than he should have on these guys.
That said, I disagree with RafaelBelliup that Huntington’s a bad GM because there are two important things that mitigate the failures above. First is that the Pirates didn’t really trade away anyone of that much value. Most everyone agrees that they could have gotten more back for Bay, Gorzelanny, and maybe McLouth, but the rest of the 2008 Pirates were practically worthless. Second, the Pirates have drafted almost exclusively for upside; if nothing else their cash outlay in the draft is pretty convincing. At this point Rendon seems like the huge favorite for the #1 pick in 2011. Among him, Alvarez, Taillon, Allie, and Heredia, the Pirates are almost bound to find a superstar or two, and we have to give Huntington credit for that.
by shayborg on Oct 4, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
As I have said many times about NH trades
If you trade crap, you get slightly less crappy crap in return
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Oct 4, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t have the energy tonight to get into this in any great detail, but it was never realistic to think this team was going to be rebuilt by trading for prospects. Leaving aside the fact that Pirate fans continue wildly overrating the guys NH was trading, veteran-for-prospect deals just don’t produce that much typically. The Colon-for-Sizemore/Lee/Phillips types are the rare exceptions. Most of these trades don’t work out. For one thing, a lot of people fail to take into account the huge informational advantage the team trading the prospects away has. It’s hard to evaluate prospects and no team has the personnel to scout thoroughly every player in the minors. By the time a GM knows which teams are the prospective trade partners for deadline deals, there’s a very limited time to see those teams’ prospects. But the other teams see their guys every day, and they’re going to push the ones they have the most doubts about. There’s a reason the Braves under Schuerholz traded prospects all the time, yet the guys they traded never seemed to amount to anything, and it wasn’t because all the GMs Shuerholz dealt with were idiots. The Braves were great at evaluating their own guys and took advantage of the information edge.
by WTM on Oct 4, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very good post
One of DL’s many faults was when he gave away minor leaguers because he didn’t know who had talent (Chris Young) from people who did not.
Also, with the web, with baseball blogs, with statistics playing such an important role, you just aren’t going to have too many old school GMs making dumb deals.
But thank God for Ned Coletti.
bottom line
186-299 is also Huntington’s record the last 3 yrs., I know you guys believe in the future ,but the future is unknown and believing in the unknown so adamantly is the first sign of mental illness. Now if some of you guys are employed by the pbc than your position in the clubs future performance should be taken in that context. In others words if you don’t have a financial stake in your opinions than you are crazy.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
you
are the ill one if all you are concerned about is the W-L column of a team that was left to dead by former management. no one wants to hear about how it takes time, but the truth is that it does, so you have your options. look to the successfulness of the minor leaguers and the young guys such as tabata and walker or gripe about a point that has been belayed over a thousand times.
Nutting is not selling the team, FC and NH are here next year, JR is gone. Come back to the reality, this team was not meant to win this year, nor next year, deal with it. and when they do win, do not hope on the wagon like everyone else will.
Sorry, but no
Your argument doesn’t hold water because it’s also unknown that there is a better strategy to building a winning team from the ashes that the current FO inheireted than the one they’re following now. Nor can it ever be known since we can’t predict what would’ve happened had they done things differently.
Greetings, my friend.
We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember, my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future. You are interested in the unknown, the mysterious, the unexplainable; that is why you are here…
.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 5, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay ...
I’m not employed by PBC.
But let’s consider a hypothetical:
1. I take over a failing car company. It is losing $5 billion per year.
2. I decide that my existing product is terrible.
3. I need new products for my company to survive long term.
4. I do that, realizing that it will cause short-term instability.
5. My “new product” does well in focus groups, consumer surveys. It’s well regarded by people in the industry.
I’m now losing more money than ever. But I would argue that I turned the corner. I made a rational decision. And that my company is becoming viable again.
That sounds responsible, not “the first sign of mental illness.”
yes
when you live in the hypothetical
57-105 come on "sale the team"
Okay ...
let me try a different tact.
The hypothetical seemed lost on you.
What would you do to make the Pirates better next year? What would your five-year plan be?
And be realistic. We aren’t trading for Pujols. We aren’t signing Werth or Lee as free agents.
What is your strategy?
believing in the unknown so adamantly is the first sign of mental illness
So . . . all religious people are mentally ill . . . ?
by WTM on Oct 5, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Most polls show about 80% of Americans believe in God (of one religion or another), which certainly qualifies as believing in the unknown. So what you’re saying is that 80% of Americans are mentally ill.
by WTM on Oct 5, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
This is not a serious discussion. At least not my part of it.
by WTM on Oct 5, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
well
it depends on how seriously they believe, if they bring up jesus or god in the first few minutes in a conversation yes the are mentally ill. If they say they believe in god because that just was the way they were brought up, they are just confused. but i guess you can say the real hard core church going god heads are mentally ill. lets just say 60% of american have had bouts of mental illness.ps the Moslem countries have a much higher rate.
just because you believe in a delusion doesn’t make you crazy ,but if the delusion becomes to big of part of your life ,your nuts.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
I see you know as much about religion and psychology as you do about baseball.
by WTM on Oct 5, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously ...
is there any subject you can post on intelligently?
if you don't believe me
get out your history book.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
So a history book ...
can tell me whether there is a God?
Which book?
never mind
you kind of missed the point, in that a lot of crazy shit was done in the name of god through out history.
57-105 come on "sale the team"
There was a lot of crazy stuff ...
for any number of reasons.
1. Technology
2. Literature
3. Politics
4. Economic system
And about 100 more. I fail to see the point.
I was hopeful that at least one of the dozens of guys he traded for would outperform expectations. So far, none of them (save perhaps Tabata and McDonald) has. You’re right that this is the norm, and I don’t think it’s a black eye for Huntington, but it’s not a feather in his cap either.
Well, yeah, 2 is more than 0
And I would probably add Ohlendorf and Meek to that list as well. Ohlendorf was seen as a reliever when he was acquired and Meek was a guy who couldn’t even make Tampa’s 40-man roster.
All I’m saying is that Huntington gets a solid C+ for his trade execution. He hasn’t stolen any real stars, and got only a few players who were better than the original team thought. No one he’s traded for would make the Yankees or Rays better. Overall I think he’s a good GM because he’s drafted well and didn’t trade away anyone too valuable, but do you really not think it was reasonable to hope for more among all the guys he acquired?
“Huntington didn’t get any superstarz!”
Well, yeah. Even the Teixeira trade, which is held up as the gold standard of prospect trades, isn’t outstanding at this point. Feliz, while very good, is a reliever, Salty and Harrison did nothing, and Elvis Andrus hit .265/.342/.301 for a .643 OPS this season. And that was Teixeira! Cliff Lee was traded a bunch of times, and none of the prospect hauls contained stars. CC Sabathia was traded for LaPorta and Brantley, who look like they won’t pan out. Victor Martinez was not traded for a whole lot.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 6, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the Yanks would like some solid SP
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"I’ve been beer-cussed!" Steelfever
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Oct 6, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Disagree
Shayborg, I think you’re making the mistake that a lot of Pirates fans make by saying they should have gotten more for the outgoing players, based on how the returning players have fared since then.
You need to look at the trades on the day that they happened.
Jason Bay had a very, very bad (for him) season in 2007. His knees were becoming questionable. At the beginning of 2008, many were wondering if his bad 2007, combined with potential knee problems meant that the 2007 season was the beginning of the end of Jason Bay. When Bay rebounded in 2008, the Pirates had a choice to make: get rid of him now, while’s he’s doing well or risk waiting until 2009, when possibly he slumps back into 2007 form and continues a slide into mediocrity. The Pirates received Andy LaRoche & Bryan Morris (considered to be 2 high end prospects) and a potential starting outfielder in Brandon Moss, plus hard throwing Craig Hansen. That was not a bad return, considering, there were question marks surrounding Jason Bay’s future abilities as a player, especially in the area of his health. Fortunately for Bay, he has shown that 2007 was merely a fluke and not the beginning of a downward trend.
Tom Gorzelanny. You REALLY think the Pirates should have received more for Gorzellany?? Gorzo had a 6.66 ERA in 21 starts in 2008. And was sitting on a 5.55 ERA at the time of the trade. Not exactly numbers that warrant a great return.
McLouth – As has been well documented, the Pirates traded McLouth after having an insane 2008. In ’09, his average had returned to his normal .256. So the Braves had to be a bit leery, wondering if 2008 was a massive fluke. However, the Pirates still returned 3 very likely major leaguers in Morton, Locke and Hernandez for one player.
Too often, people want to judge the trades based on what happens after, but when you look at the trades, at the times they were made, I don’t believe that NH hasn’t received roughly the expected return of each trade at the time it was made.
Mostly agree
Two nitpicks:
1. I don’t think LaRoche was a prospect by the time of the trade. He was more of a failed former prospect.
2. I think Gorzo should have brought more. Yes, he had struggled some. But a former manager had dramatically overused him. It took a few years for the arm to get healthy again.
And you could see his velocity coming back.
I just didn’t see the rush to trade him. He had shown top talent and wasn’t making that much.
LaRoche WAS a failed prospect...
but listening to Huntington after the trade made it sound like he’d be the Pirates 3B for quite a few years.
Well....
I guess they fooled Baseball America. LaRoche was listed as the 31st-best prospect in baseball for the 2008 season, the season in which he was traded.
Implied ...
the Dodgers made him available because they didn’t think he could play.
His line with the Dodgers over two years of part-time duty: .184 AB, 3 HR, .217 average.
He would not have been ranked by Baseball America as the 31st best prospect at the time of the trade. Seven months can make an enormous difference.
Not sure I agree
He only had 100 ABs with the Dodgers in 2008, is that enough to declare the 31st-best prospect in baseball a failure? His work in AAA that year was outstanding.
It’s unfortunate that LaRoche didn’t work out, but not every prospect will. A certain amount of failure is inevitable when you’re trading for unproven players.
Maguro
I’ll track down a link later. But his stock was low. Really low.
DK had quotes from the Dodgers organizations completely trashing him after the deal.
I’d compare his stock to some of my stocks over the past year.
Let me put it another way
What were Pedro’s numbers after 100 ABs this year?
Of course the Dodgers are going to trash him anonymously after the deal, they have to justify their own actions. People who leak stuff to the press always have an agenda.
Maguro
I don’t disagree with most of what you say.
But I will say that there is a key difference between Pedro and LaRoche: I don’t think most scouts saw him being an elite power hitter at the MLB level, especially at the time of the trade.
His minor league stats are inflated by some of the parks he played in.
Was he an interesting prospect in 2008? Yes.
Was his value on the decline? Yes.
Would I have traded Bay for him as a key component?
No.
I wasn’t suggesting that LaRoche was as good a prospect as Pedro, just pointing out that 100 ABs are not really enough to turn a good prospect into a failure.
Obviously, LaRoche is a bust and it was a mistake to trade for him. I just don’t think it was obvious at the time that Tampa’s reported package of Brignac/Niemann was superior to what the Dodgers were offering. Now you’d love to have Brignac instead of LaRoche, but I could have gone either way at the time. It would have been a close call. Really tough to hammer a GM too much when dealing with choices like that.
Why....
I don’t understand why there’s this assumption that teams only trade away prospects when they feel that can’t play or have become failures.
Lest we forget, the Dodgers were trying to acquire Manny Ramirez! Certainly they’d be willing to give up 2 quality prospects in order to get him into their lineup. Certainly, LaRoche hasn’t done much since and he hadn’t lit the majors on fire in his limited play prior to the trade, but is it really inconceivable that the Dodgers would be willing to let go of 2 highly thought-of prospects like LaRoche & Morris to land Ramirez?
Prospects ...
have become much more precious with advanced statistics and WAR calculations.
You rarely get someone willing to part with an elite prospect today.
Instead, it’s much more likely to be B or B+ types for top talent.
Gorzelanny wouldn’t have brought more, but we probably shouldn’t have traded him given that the velocity was back up when he was in Indianapolis last year.
Looking at his stats now, he’s basically an average pitcher. He’s not much different than Ross Ohlendorf.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 5, 2010 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions
And...
I agree with you that Gorzo would not have brought back more and that perhaps the Pirates should have waited to see what happened to him. The Gorzo trade does fly in the face of the “sell-high” mentality that NH has used on most of his trades. They traded Gorzo at probably his lowest possible value!
I will say that this is probably the one trade in NH’s trade history that didn’t make a whole lot of sense then….and still doesn’t. And it’s not because Hart has struggled & Ascanio has been injured. While I think that Josh Harrison has a good future ahead of him, Kevin Hart was already 26 years old and hadn’t exactly torn up the minor or major leagues yet and Jose Ascanio was a young guy with a strong arm, but hadn’t really gotten the results in the minors yet. I’m not saying it was a horrible trade or that the Pirates got ripped off or anything, but it was just a trade that wasn’t necessary to happen.
Gorzo
You guys may be right that he couldn’t have brought back a better return.
I’m skeptical. I just never was high on any of the guys they traded for. (That was before the injuries to Hart, Ascanio).
I can see getting those guys for Grabow, who was a reasonable trade chip at the time.
But not for Gorzo.
That being said, I agree that the Pirates sold low.
And maybe he’s an average pitcher. But the Pirates could use a cheap average pitcher right now.
Gorzo was one of the worst mistakes the FO has made.
It seems like it just came down to Kerrigan not wanting to work with him anymore, and Huntington just accepted that.
by MarkInDallas on Oct 5, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
They could have gotten back more for McLouth?
We traded a one-year fluke (viewed as such by most major-league FOs) for 3 promising players, one of which is a very good prospect, and the lesser two are still more promising than Nate.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 6, 2010 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Adam
My only gripe, if it’s the right word, is that the Pirates said in the Post-Gazette that they took the package they wanted.
Okay. But if you look at the Braves’ top 15 prospects, the team could have done better.
Here’s where I wonder how good the scouts are. Who recommended whom?
But I think Locke is going to be a solid pitcher. He, alone, makes the deal.
Also, remember that comes with this bias: I despise Hernandez type players. They look great as athletes and their numbers lag behind.
It may be philosophical difference...
because Huntington has been on record saying that he likes taking players with tools in the belief that power and polish will develop later. I hope he’s right, so do Grossman, Hernandez, Rojas and Chambers.
I don’t know about that. We picked up the BA #4 and #7 in their system at the time, plus maybe an average starting pitcher. You know as well as I than Hanson and Heyward were never on the table.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 6, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Freeman
I always liked him much, much better.
They had nearly the identical ranking from BA. Sickels had them ranked almost the same.
I would have taken the baseball player over the athlete.
But I’ve also been a big Freeman fan since I saw him play a few years ago (acknowledging bias).
We've gotta have something to talk about, Adam.
It’s gonna be a long offseason. We might see an interesting signing or two, but mostly we’ll just be waiting to see who we might lose/pick up in the Rule V draft. Sounds like slim pickings to me.
Hehehe.
I came in to my house about 45 minutes ago, turned the lights on, turned the TV on and went to channel 720 to look for a Pirates game tonight.
Oops.
Now I’m sitting here and just reading everything that I missed tonight.
by IAPiratesFan on Oct 4, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I flipped to 720 as well ...
oops. I’ll miss baseball even though the Pirates were horrible.
6 months of flame-baiters railing about how Tony Sanchez sucks. Once Sanchez or Bryan Morris come up and produce, he’ll change his screen name.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 5, 2010 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions
He also
seems to make a point of writing, like, 12 stories a day from the Pirates, Steelers, Penguins and Pitt camps, so naturally his work is often sloppy. He’s the AP sports reporter whose byline is most likely to appear under “Third lede writethru, corrects errors in third and 12th graphs …”
Interesting....
After all this talking about the past, I thought it would be interesting to see what was said in the media on the day that Russell was hired….
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07309/831232-63.stm
This is interesting from that article (as I couldn’t remember anybody else who was up for the job at the time)….
Russell won the Pirates’ manager’s job over Chicago White Sox bench coach Joey Cora, Cleveland third-base coach Joel Skinner, Los Angeles Dodgers bench coach Dave Jauss and Class AAA Indianapolis manager Trent Jewett
Or even more interesting, which runs counter to what DK said in his Pirates chat this morning….
John Russell was the only one of the five interviewed candidates for the Pirates’ manager’s job who did not have a tie to general manager Neal Huntington. But Russell ended up being the one who got the job. “That says something about Neal,” said Mike Arbuckle, Philadelphia’s assistant general manager for scouting and player development. “In baseball [hiring], we all tend to lean toward those people we’re comfortable with.”
By just reading this thread, you would learn that:
Jose Tabata has peaked in his major league career at age 21.
Nobody can steal bases past their 27th birthday, it’s a proven fact by experts.
Neil Walker’s season was a complete fluke because he couldn’t draw walks, although Posey has walked less than Walker yet will probably win the NL ROY.
Tony Sanchez is a suck-pile catcher that won’t ever be a major league starter because (A) he was drafted by fellow suck-pile NH and (B) he can’t hit home runs to save his life.
Alvarez is also a suck-pile because he only hit 4 homers on the road.
Evan Meek was a TOTAL deal breaker, will easily be the definition of Huntington’s legacy.
and Joe Kerrigan is a contributor on BD.
There are two theories on hitting a knuckleball - unfortunately, neither of them work.
Bob Smizik Column found from the late 1950's!
It should send shudders down the spines of that dwindling band of men, women and children known as Pirates fans that the very same men who failed totally and completely in their last managerial hire are about to embark on another job search.
Scary, isn’t it?
The same baseball executives who brought us Bobby Bragan and who yesterday acknowledged the scope of that failure are entrusted with naming his replacement.
by IAPiratesFan on Oct 5, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
The same baseball executives who brought us Bobby Bragan and who yesterday acknowledged the scope of that failure are entrusted with naming his replacement.
+1
I've often wondered ...
if Bob just uses his material from the past five decades and does a search and replace for the names.
Most of this appears to be addressed to me
So I do want to point out that I defended Walker against all that can’t draw walks / BABIP stuff.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 5, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Today’s P-G is just as bad as this article, featuring yinzer (Dejan Kovacevic) and super-yinzer (Ron Cook).
Dejan analyzes all the trading while “conveniently” not mentioning either the minor league acquisitions doing well, or the older players who tanked after we traded them.
Cook just wants Huntington and Coonelly fired, and whines more about Nutting.
Which minor league acquisitions are doing well?
Jeff Locke is the only one who is arguably doing well, and even that is over a short time at an ordinary age in a mid-level. Bryan Morris had a nice couple months as a 23-year-old in A-ball, but the fantasy that he’s “doing well” is over.
Who else? You mean Lambo and his .352 slugging percentage at Altoona and his combined 397 slugging percentage in AA?
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 5, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong as usual
Morris turned in a very solid performance at Altoona. You probably focused only on the ERA and ignored everything else.
Morris’ peripheral stats (strikeouts, walks, ground balls allowed) were very good in Altoona.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 6, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Hits and Ks remained okay
Not great, but okay.
Walks ballooned. He also plunked a lot of guys and threw a fair number of wild pitches, so there’s concern that he lost control.
There’s also the matter of giving up homeruns at the rate of almost one per 9 innings (another indication that he lost control).
I never get it with you guys. Considering the homeruns and walks and HBP, I would guess that his FIP at Altoona is pretty mediocre notwithstanding the decent but not outstanding IP/H/K ratios.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 6, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
His FIP at Altoona was 3.87
And he’s not Stephen Strasburg, nobody said he was. He’s also not a flop, his performance at Altoona was very creditable. Compare Morris’ numbers to guys like Kyle Drabek, Zach Stewart and Kyle Gibson who are highly regarded prospects. Morris is not a sure-fire superstar or a franchise savior by any means, but he’s still a pretty good prospect.
Any prospect you want to talk about has his weaknesses, it’s just bizarre to pick at stuff like the number of wild pitches to tear down a guy who had 8.5 K/9 with a 2.7 K/BB ratio and a 1.78 GO/AO ratio. Those are good numbers.
Here’s achallenge: Why don’t you name me 5 non-Altoona Eastern League SP prospects who are better than Morris?
It's a BS game
The issue is not how many pitchers in the EL performed better than Bryan Morris, because very few pitchers in the EL in any given year end up as useful MLB starting pitchers.
To turn it around: Name an EL season from the past in which five now average or better major league starting pitchers (let’s say ERA+ of 94 or greater) pitched that EL season.
Kyle Drabek was much better statistically (roughly the same walks per IP, many fewer hits, fewer home runs, etc.), over a longer AA season, and has a better post-TJ track record on top of it. Kyle Gibson was a bit better than Morris statistically.
Obviously there were three pitchers at Altoona who were better statistically than Morris.
Altoona, FYI, has a park runs factor of 0.84.
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 6, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Name an EL season from the past in which five now average or better major league starting pitchers (let’s say ERA+ of 94 or greater) pitched that EL season.
Hmm, let’s see. Picking a year at random (2006):
J. A. Happ (127)
Jair Jurrjens (118)
Matt Garza (107)
Ricky Romero (107)
Phil Hughes (105)
Jesse Litsch (105)
Gio Gonzalez (96)
Aaron Laffey (96)
Kevin Slowey (96)
Mike Pelfrey (95)
Nick Blackburn (94)
There are probably others, too, but I got bored after the first ten or so. What do I win?
Maybe that was a fluke.
I wonder whether I can find another one. How about… 2004?
Matt Cain (126)
Francisco Liriano (109)
Chien-Ming Wang (108)
Jeremy Guthrie (107)
Gustavo Chacin (105)
Kason Gabbard (102)
Rob Tejeda (102)
Gavin Floyd (101)
Scott Baker (100)
John Maine (98)
Fausto Carmona (96)
Zach Duke (94)
Brad Hennessey (94)
Dustin McGowan (94)
Huh. How about that? Who could have guessed?
Yeah, but . . . . .
Those guys were all suck-piles. I read that somewhere. If you break down their pitching between prospects and non-prospects, and eliminate all the non-prospects, they all suck.
by WTM on Oct 7, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Morris tailed off a little bit towards the end, due to going way past last year’s innings count. Once he fully builds his arm up, he’ll be fine. He’s got enough stuff in the mid-90s with 2 strikeout pitches.
Other guys who did well include Nathan Adcock and Jeff Locke, off the top of my head.
I haven’t been thrilled with Lambo, but he’s in the Neil Walker prospect mold in that he’s a couple years younger than most prospects at the level.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 6, 2010 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Or maybe he just had a great run at the beginning of the season
and then regressed to recent norms for him.
We see this kind of thing all the time at the MLB level. Zach Duke himself pitched all right for half a season in 2009. Why get excited about what a 23-year-old did for a couple months in A-ball when we know better than to get excited about what guys do for half a season in MLB?
by RafaelBelliup on Oct 6, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Russell
This is probably the best thing that could have happened to Russell. Thank the Lord he did not have to put up with these hunyucks for another year. The Pirate organization from the owners down to the GM are like a car without a steering wheel. The owners put a little (very little) gas in the car. Russell’s forced to be gagged and handcuffed behind the wheel and the GM is in the back seat with a GPS that has run out of batteries. I’m sure Russell was promised the moon and stars but all he got was Uranus. His record BEFORE P’burgh was very impressive.
wait...
why would you have the gps in the back and why bring it if it has no batteries? Don’t they come with a car charger included?
by BlindSquirrel on Oct 5, 2010 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
I thought he was terrible his last year at AAA.
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