Starting Pitching
by even meek on Nov 16, 2010 8:31 PM EST
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PrintSo, the pirates NEED starting pitching. I dont think signing De La Rosa will be a good idea in the long run with the Altoona group. So, how do we add starting pitching without spending the top dollar? I can think of two things: Try to catch lightning in a bottle with someone like J.D or I just read something about Bartolo Colon making a comeback and I think he is the perfect fit at 900,000[including incentives], The other thing is let Kevin Hart, Charlie Morton, Brad Lincoln, and maybe crotta and McCutchen.
I like the pirates to sign Colon and a couple minor league free agents with an invite to spring training. I still see Brad Lincoln as a no. 2 starter with Kerrigan messing with his mechanics. you can never give up with Morton and he finally got his confidence to throw his fastball. Another thing is that I think the pitchers are more relaxed at the mound with Snyder behind the plate. With 3 rotation spots took up, I dont think any pitcher for more than seven million should be signed. Now, if I saw they signed him and it was for about 11 million I wouldnt freak out.
Comments,Questions,Concerns?
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Javier Vazquez is the guy I like...
Always pitched better in the NL.
Look at 2009: 2.87 ERA and 238 K’s… I understand he was a disaster in NY, but if he’s half the pitcher he was for the Braves in 2009, than he’s a far better buy for a 2 year deal than higher priced guys like De La Rosa. More importantly, Vazquez has shown he can be an ace, De La Rosa has not.
Other cheaper guys I wouldn’t mind taking a look at are Harden, Colon, and Francis on incentive based deals.
Vasquez....
And Vasquez’s numbers are a bit skewed because his first 5 starts of the season were awful!!
If you were to take away that terrible start to his season and the awful game that he ended the season with…his ERA for the rest of the year (his other 25 starts) was 4.23 (which is certainly a far cry from the 5.32 ERA that he shows for the whole year).
(Now I hate it as much as anybody, when somebody says…“if you just took away ______ games….”, because part of being successful is to NOT have those poor games or a poor start but to be good throughout, but I’ll use it anyway to prove my point, haha!!!!)
Again, a poor FA class is going to drive up his price, so I’d be curious to see what he signs for.
true but i think he would be a great addition.......
…plus I think he can make up for some of that lost velocity with being back in the NL and his experience…..if they can sign him at a nice price they should grab him. I’d rather see this type of signing then invest in DeLa Rosa,,,,,
by Marooned Pirate on Nov 17, 2010 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
At the right term/cost...
I wouldn’t be opposed to adding Vazquez. His fastball velocity was down about 2 mph from ‘09 to ’10, going from 91.2 to 89.0 (source Fangraphs PFX data) and his K/9 & BB/9 also went in the wrong directions. But perhaps getting out of the AL East would help keep him productive, even if he can’t return to his high strikeout ways.
At any rate, it may not matter as FA pitchers tend to find the years/dollars somewhere and I don’t think the Bucs are going to give someone either… especially if the player is suspected to be in decline.
I’m wary of De la Rosa… I see Oliver Perez all over again, even if it’s not an accurate comparison.
i dont see a correlation between de la rosa and perez other than both being lefty hispaniards
de la rosa has been steadily improving over the last 3 seasons. im not saying we should sign him, im just saying that i dont see the resemblance to oliver perez
by white angus on Nov 17, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
JDR has walked over 4 per 9 just about every season.
I don’t remember how bad Perez was but his control was terrible. JDR is not as bad but the walks are a point of concern. They are also both lefties who throw heat and have killer sliders when they are on. I think JDR would be a good signing if the price were right becaue I think he will have a big season or two in the future but I also can understand how some would make a Perez comp.
OP walks 8 per 9
7.91 in 2009 and 8.16 in 2010. Ouch! It was much better in Pittsburgh.
Viva Clemente!
Yeah, I qualified it with “even if it’s not…” because I felt it might be unfair to De la Rosa. But there are definite similarities outside of being left-handed “hispaniards” (sorry, I laughed). I was more focused on the repertoire and peripherals — good heat, hard (and difficult to harness apparently) breaking stuff which leads to high K and BB numbers. Although it was interesting to see Jorge threw a ton of changeups last year and far fewer breaking balls compared to previous seasons. Also, De la Rosa doesn’t work deep into games, presumably due to the high pitch counts that come with lots of Ks & BBs. It’s stretching my memory, but I seem to recall Perez having the same problem.
The reason I think it’s an unfair comparison is more due the fact that Perez by all accounts is a(n) _______ (insert whatever derogatory name you want). His mechanics stunk, he apparently did not want to be coached on them, he threw fits in the dugout/clubhouse, etc , etc. I think for many this is the lasting memory of Perez, hence the qualifying statement. I have no idea of De la Rosa’s “character” and did not want my comparison to be construed as such, but I think from a pitching perspective it has legs.
And just to be clear, I’m referring to the Oliver Perez that played for the Pirates, not the current incarnation of him that is downright awful.
I'd love to Vazquez signed
Much safer than De La Rosa IMO but I haven’t seen that the bucs are interested in him at all…so who knows. But he has the potential to be that “top end” starter that’s sorely needed (even when the Altoona boyz show up)
by Dan Jenkins on Nov 17, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
"The Altoona Boyz" will be lucky to replicate the "success" of Duke and Maholm over the past several years.
If we’re lucky, one of them stays really healthy and becomes even better.
Morris is a lot better than Duke and Maholm at least if he stays healthy. Not sure about the lefties.
by Adam Reynolds on Nov 18, 2010 1:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
A+
I heard a football announcer a few years ago say that; one problem with playing in Pittsburgh, is that you can’t do anything after you’ve eaten your pregame lunch from Primanti’s.
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Nov 16, 2010 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
If we want to catch lightning in a bottle
We sign Erik Bedard. He could be absolutely ridiculous or end up on IR for the whole season. But for a relatively small amount, we could get a very good top end guy.
Vasquez is fine. I’d take him any day in the NL.
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
Exactly why do we need a 37 year old with a fork welded to his hand (Colon)? He hasn’t been healthy or in shape since 2005 (and he wasn’t really in shape then, unless you consider round in shape). He WILL not be a piece of the puzzle when we get around to winning. Bedard, Vasquez or Webb are better risks if they come fairly cheap.
I consider
round to be a shape.
But that’s just me.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 17, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
Cocktails
I saw your pic from the Gathering and I must say you looked downright svelte in a dark shirt.
Cheers.
Though I must ask if you’ve had your prescription checked lately?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 17, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Either
or both.
;-)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 17, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
an improved defense
would make our pitchers look so much better
that could be said about any team's rotation
its also up to the pitchers to make adjustments just like the hitters. the same defense was behind mcdonald and ohly. maholm and duke got hit hard, and often NOT at any of our defensive players.
by white angus on Nov 17, 2010 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
Good pitching improves bad defense
Good defense does not improve bad pitching
Starting pitching should have our undivided attention in free agency because it needs by far the most work.
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
You don't have to worry about the Altoona group.
2011 will be Maholm’s last year with the Pirates, so we’re going to have at least one hole there for somebody to fill.
Omg
ROFL HAHA
Seriously people please give up the fact that if we had a better defense, our pitching staff would have been a ton better. Would it have helped? Of course. Not much though. We have 3 no. 5 starters a bunch of No. 9 starters.. Give it a rest we need better pitching. I like ollie, McDonald and still not giving up on maholm. But the rest are glorified bums as of right now.
by Jake The Snake1 on Nov 17, 2010 11:55 AM EST via mobile reply actions
well
they are going to be inquiring on every FA pitcher there is, so that shouldnt be a surprise. We likely wont see anything happen till around Christmas anyway.
This talk about Javier Vazquez is a waste of time.
Picking him up as innngs-eater with his BP velocity reminds me of the Bucs picking up Walt Terrell a couple decades ago. And with the defense the ’11 Bucs will probably have, a JV signing would be an even bigger disaster.
youre comparing a vazquez signing to aquiring a pitcher 20 plus years ago?
dude, let go of the mouse, step away from the monitor, take a deep breath, walk over to the doorway, lean your hips inward and slam your junk with the door. this way you’ll forget about walt terrell and pretty much everything else for that matter. then you can re-boot.
white angus
Stick where the sun doesn’t shine, asswipe.
I made some legitimate points, hoping that someone that knows something about baseball would comment.
Not some pinhead like you.
Pghfan987
Can you explain to me why you think he will regain velocity next year and be able to pitch much better?
Can you explain to me why you think someone like JV would even want to play in Pittsburgh?
Some people think...
the Yankees jerking him around between the rotation and long relief screwed with him and his mechanics got out of sync as a result. I have no idea if it’s true or not but it would be worth the gamble on a one year deal. Anything longer than that and you could be asking for trouble.
Doesn’t seem true to me. He had, if I recall, one relief appearance in the first three months.
by Adam Reynolds on Nov 18, 2010 1:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You might have a point, Slick1.
But unless someone got him “straightened out”, then he wouldn’t be able to do anything for a bad team like the Pirates.
Or he could just be on the decline to the end of his career. He will be 35 next year.
Gavin Floyd
MLBTR says he is on the trading block, and the Pirates are interested. I think he would be a great acquisition for the Bucs. We all shudder at the idea of giving up prospects, but I think if the price isn’t too high, it would make more sense than overpaying for one of the very few good SPs in free agency.
Oops
The MLBTR post says the author, Dierkes, EXPECTS the Bucs to be one of the teams interested, not that the Bucs have necessarily already contacted the Sox.
Nevertheless, I like the idea of acquiring someone via trade, especially from a team that is looking to dump salary and might not expect a huge return in top prospects.
Signed through '12 with a club option for '13...
Solid numbers in the AL, approaching 200 innnings each of the last 3 years, and two consecutive years of sub-4 FIPs. While Bill James apparently isn’t bullish on him for next year, I would very much support a trade for Gavin Floyd. Not sure if the Bucs have anything that would interest the Sox. Kenny Williams doesn’t strike me as a GM who wants to trade for A/AA-ball prospects and I don’t think we have any ML palyers of interest (that we’re willing to trade).
Not unless they wanted Meek and Doumit. They DO seem to have a hole at C if AJ leaves in FA… but still seems unlikely.
Would we give up Neil Walker? He could play 2nd or 3rd for them and is young and cheap. That would be a tough decision for me. Either way, Floyd on a 3yr/$21m contract would be a very nice addition to the rotation.
I wouldn't trade Walker
unless we got something more in return, or the Sox picked up a lot of Floyd’s salary. It doesn’t make financial sense, with Walker having essentially zero years of MLB service.
I think the financial aspect
is that we wouldn’t be able to get a SP nearly as good as Floyd for 3/21, which is what he has left on his deal. That’s also just a starting point, you could get them to take Doumit or send $$ as well.
Walker is a great story being a hometown boy and a reborn prospect but if we consider him basically found money then this might not be a bad opportunity to sell high.
It doesn’t matter if Walker is found, stolen, or old money – he is an asset the Pirates can’t afford to trade away without getting a lot in return. If they take Doumit and add a prospect then I think the deal becomes more interesting.
I have watched the Rockies play 100 ball games for the last 12 years. During those year I have attended every Pirate – Rockies game in Denver. My thinking about Rockies pitchers is De La Rosa would be a good starter for the Pirayes. Jeff Francis wouldn’t. Barmes played SS when Tolo broke his wrist and is better than any SS in the Pirate organization. I have said my piece and one more thing Clint will be a good manager
I’d also be in favor of kicking the tires on Barmes if the Rockies simply want to dump him or he’s non-tendered. He likely wouldn’t be a huge upgrade offensively if you look at OPS and wRC+ — hard to believe, huh? — but his defensive metrics look good @ SS with a career UZR/150 of 6 compared to Cedeno’s -4. Plus Barmes has played almost as much 2B as SS (306 GP to 333) with 5.6 UZR/150 there, which could make him a nice bench guy if the Bucs stick with a Alvarez/Cedeno/Walker/1B infield.
All that being said, he’s 32 this spring and an average MLB player. Not worth giving up much, if anything, and the Bucs need to use their resources wisely.
Was coming here to post this...
Barmes to the Astros for Felipe Paulino, he of the robust frame and 95 mph gas. I guess a somewhat reasonable comparison in terms of a comparable offer from the Pirates would be Charlie “Good Stuff” Morton. How would folks have felt if the Bucs sent Morton to Colorado for Barmes?
Guess I should’ve stated my opinion… I wouldn’t have been too happy, if only because Barmes was a likely non-tender candidate.
actually i take that back
I wouldnt have traded Paulino for Barmes. I looked at some large numbers jumping out without proper context in terms of sample size.
Barmes is great with the glove, but I don’t really want him playing for me outside of Coors.
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