Diamondbacks decline option on LaRoche, any interest in coming back??
by impliedi on Nov 2, 2010 7:37 PM EDT
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PrintI know that Adam LaRoche had an uneven time here in Pittsburgh, but I saw that the Diamondbacks declined their option on him and was thinking he could be a potential target for returning to the Bucs in their hunt for bats.
Why bring him back?? Well, 2 big things are different now: 1. Garrett Jones 2. Pedro Alvarez.
Adam LaRoche would not have to carry the lineup, which is a big plus. But he would be a nice #6 hitter protecting the young heart of the Pirates order, allow Jones to settle into right field which would solve the Pirates right field & 1st base issues. I certainly would like to see a McCutchen - Tabata - Walker - Alvarez - Jones - LaRoche lineup one through six.
And for $6 million or so.....who knows??
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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The only problem I see with this scenario...
…is that the 3-6 hitters in your line-up are LH (yes, I know that Walker is a switch-hitter, but he will be hitting lefty more often than righty). Your catcher against RHP will probably be Doumit (if he survives the offseason), making it potentially five LH bats in a row.
It just makes late-game relief pitcher decisions a lot easier for the opposing manager if he can get past the top three; a LOOGY suddenly becomes a guy who could give him an inning against Pedro, Garrett and Adam.
Plus, on a personal level, I cannot stomach putting up with Adam’s annual April and May slump while the team falls farther and farther under .500. I was glad to see him go and am in no hurry to see him come back.
That’s a fair enough criticism (I actually thought about the 3 straight lefties thing right after I posted it), but, on the flipside I don’t get too excited about the whole LOOGY thing. I prefer to build a lineup based on the first 6 innings, than worrying about 1 potential inning that may or may not occur in the last 3.
I still think LaRoche makes a good fit for this Pirates team, and wouldn’t be overly expensive. Obviously, it’d be a much better thing if he was right-handed!!
By the way.....
LaRoche broke the April slump this past year!! (This year it was a June slump…at least as far as batting average goes!!)
if laroche was right handed
maybe. but im guessing jones/pearce could match or better his production in a platoon for far cheaper. and if he doesnt come out of the gate hitting .400 everyone will have a field day with “i told you so” and “same old laroche”
However....
Even with a Jones/Pearce platoon, the Pirates will STILL need to pick up a bat. The problem becomes after the top couple of right field or 1B FA’s out there (Konerko, Werth) who are WAAAAY out of the Pirates price range, there isn’t a whole lot that will produce LaRoche-type power with good D that won’t cost more than the expected $6 million LaRoche is expected to get.
Ouch!!
I get the joke, but I think Justin Upton was pretty happy to have him behind him this year. Wow, I still can’t get over the fact that a consistent 25 HR/.270 guy with a pretty good glove has this many Pirates fans still mocking him.
He’s an inconsistent 25/.270 which is why Pirates fans mock him. It’s also why he’s looking for his fourth team in three years.
We don’t need any more Laroches, ever. They’ve cursed us with potential for far too long.
I would rather just play GFJ straight up for another year. Their stats aren’t so drastically different to justify the 5-6 million salary gap.
No More LaWhiff
I know that “the chart” shows that we need some help at 1B. Big Luigi is not it, and he definitely is not it at the price he would likely want.
My non-stats based, purely off-the-cuff thought is that this would be Matt Morris 2 – simply paying a free agent to show that we’ll pay a free agent without regard for the quality of the free agent. I’m not against picking up a free agent 1B or SP, I’d just prefer a more reasoned pick.
Why don't you knock it off with them negative vibes?!
Wow!!!!
The anti-LaRoche feelings still run deep!!! I didn’t realize that the Pirates had no space for a guy who hit 25 HRs and had 100 RBI last year!!!
I still think
Jones and Pearce could easily combine to put up 25 hr and 100 rbi at 1B. Just sayin.
I would approve of bringing him back. He’s going to hit for a .350 wOBA and play good defense at first. He’s significantly better than Jones in every facet of the game.
And...
what’s nice about picking him up, is that you solve your 1st base issue, can move Jones permanently to right field and all you have to do is pick up another 1/2 bat (a platoon partner for Jones in RF).
I’d be curious to see if the Pirates would pursue someone like an Andruw Jones or Austin Kearns, powerful right handed hitters, on the tail ends of their careers, with limited range (which would be fine in the very small PNC Park RF) as platoon partners for Jones out in RF. You figure that you’re saving so much money with Garrett Jones, that they can afford to spend a decent amount on the other half of that platoon.
Now I know that picking up Adam LaRoche and Jones/Kearns wouldn’t excite the fan base, but it certainly would put a couple powerful bats around the core of McCutchen/Tabata/Walker/Alvarez. These wouldn’t break the bank, and would make the lineup more dangerous….but that still doesn’t solve the problems in the rotation…..
I prefer a Jones/Pearce 1B platoon over a Jones/Milledge RF platoon. The trouble is there aren’t any reasonable RF FA options.
I’d be ok with LaRoche for $5mil or so but he probably ends up in Baltimore or something
Ordonez is a great hitter.
But I’m not sure about his defense. His UZR numbers fluctuate pretty wildly, but I was under the impression that Ordonez is basically a statue at this point. I’d love the offense, though.
His defensive issues might not be that big a deal at PNC. Cutch and Tabata can cover a lot of ground, and right field isn’t nearly as big as left. So, stick him in right field, right?
by Suffering Buc on Nov 2, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
He can't be worse than Doumit...
and we were running him out there. Honestly, I think the Bucs believe they can compensate a poor defender in RF at PNC with basically to CF’s playing the other two spots. I think Ordonez would be an interesting option if the price was right.
The numbers like him more than my eyes.
But unlike a lot of the guys we’ve been running out in RF, he has enough bat to potentially make up for a below-average glove and still be an above-average starter.
$$$$
Is Ordonez worth $15M though (that’s what his 2011 option with the Tigers is)…and at 37 years old, will he be an everyday right fielder?? I’m certainly not against the idea, but even if the Pirates could afford him, is it worth it?
I don't really see any way...
…that Jones in RF would be an improvement on Milledge in RF for us next year.
I do think that LaRoche would be an upgrade on Jones at 1B, and as such I’d be open to him at the right price.
Are we really discussing Adam LaRoche?
Really? Did you not watch him GIDP or K in just about every clutch AB last season? The man was a disaster, bringing him back would be just stupid.
He had a .350 wOBA in just about every season with the Pirates...
and he averaged about 2.3 WAR which isn’t great but it’s far better than the replacement level production Jones gave last saeason. Personally I think we can do better than Laroche but make no mistake about it Laroche would be an upgrade over Jones from last season.
But remember that time where he grounded out in a big situation? IT was bases loaded with 1 out and he GIDP. Remember? He’s bad in the clutch. I remember him striking out ALL THE TIME. His homers must have all come in blowouts because he is SO not clutch.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 3, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Well....
He must not have been in very many “clutch” ABs last year, as he only grounded into 8 DPs all year!
Can't be...
all we can remember is Laroche GIDP’s and weakly grounding out to 2B when he is not striking out.
Did you not watch him GIDP or K in just about every clutch AB last season?
LaRoche, full season, 2010: .261/.320/.468
LaRoche, men on, 2010: .288/.337/.523
LaRoche, RISP, 2010: .306/.351/.573
LaRoche, RISP&2 out, 2010: .274/.338/.575
Why let facts get in the way of a good argument?
BECAUSE HE"S NOT CLUTHC
Geez Vlad, you don’t know anything with your fancy numbers! I watched him strikeout once when there was a guy on base, and it ended the inning! That means he isnt clutch. Because I saw a small sample size and it was a negative reaction! Man! I bet your just watching through the tears that come with losing the world series to tim lincecum.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Oops, just posted about the same thing, but you said it better.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 3, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
LaRoche has no heart. Anyone who’s a brother of Andy LaRoche must suck.
by Suffering Buc on Nov 3, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
please no
I am a huge pirates fan who lives in Arizona. If you want someone who strikes out in key situations, makes errors in key situations. Hits when it does not count than Adam Laroche is your man. Arizona’s season was a complete and total disaster. Trust me Adam choked many times early in the season; Arizona was out of it very early and then he really started to hit. How as a Pirates fan can you want this guy back. I swear he would always do the least productive thing in key situation. One out runners in scoring position double play. No outs than strikeout. You have to be joking with this thread.
by changepirateskarma on Nov 3, 2010 1:13 AM EDT reply actions
People should realize that there’s virtually zero “clutch” factor that should be taken into consideration with him. The season is 162 games. You’re going to get plenty of bad moments. The wOBA is still solid every year,
If you do want to play the clutch game, he’s had a positive clutch score (WPA/LI) every year of his career. So, no, he doesn’t choke in big situations.
by Suffering Buc on Nov 3, 2010 6:30 AM EDT up reply actions
And, of course.....
I know, nobody wants to talk about 100 RBI (because there’s nothing less important in baseball than driving in runs!), because LaRoche must have driven in all 100 of those runs in “non-clutch” situations (actually 75 runs, if you take out the 25 times he drove in himself).
As I said, “wow”, still a lot of LaRoche dislike by Pirates fans. The problem last time was that he was the “savior” when he came over from the Braves and he isn’t the kind of guy that should have a team built around him. But he’s a very, very solid bat and glove, that would look good in the 6-hole of a lineup.
The problem for Arizona is that they made the EXACT same mistake that the Pirates did, trying to make him a clean-up hitter (it’s almost like they ignored LaRoche’s history). Somebody needs to put him & keep him at #6!
nobody wants to talk about 100 RBI (because there’s nothing less important in baseball than driving in runs!)
That’s not true. There are lots of things in baseball that are just as unimportant as RBI. Like saves, or pitcher wins, or game-winning RBI…
Its not that run creation is unimportant
Its the way that the statistic measures run production. RBI totals will vary wildly if a specific batter is placed on a different team. Why? Because RBI is an extremely situational statistic that measures (more than the batter’s ability at least) how good the runners ahead of him were at getting on base. Put LaRoche into the an offense with the league’s worst leadoff hitter, and his RBIs plummet.
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
But glass, LaRoche had 100 RBI on a terrible Arizona team. And the Diamondbacks switch their leadoff guys a good bit. I’d agree with you that if LaRoche had 100 RBI on the Yankees, if might not be a big deal, but to drive in so many runs on a 95-loss team that was 16th in runs scored in all of baseball is a decent feat.
It's an interesting statistical artifact.
But doesn’t necessarily imply individual merit on his part.
i understand where youre coming from, vlad
but why does every team have, or need to have, their go-to “rbi guy”?
he usually bats third or cleanup, maybe fifth, usually a bopper or xbh machine… isnt the goal of a run producer to knock in the guys who get on base in front of him? that sounds like value to me
Those are generally the batting positions with the most opportunity to drive runs in...
It only makes sense to have your best hitters in those spots. By default they should have the most RBI simply because they will have the most chances to drive in runs through luxury of the spot in the order. Also, RBI by themselves don’t tell you much about performance. It’s kind of like saves. Take for example the following:
player A: 32 saves
player B: 21 saves
By looking at those two numbers alone you would assume that player A is the better closer. Now what if I provided you with the following information of the same two players:
player A: 32/43 (saves/saves opps)
player B: 21/21 (saves/saves opps)
Now who would you pick? So like saves, for RBI to be an even semi-useful stat you need to know how many opportunities a player had to drive in runs and then compare that conversion % across the rest of the league. Keep in mind I used saves as an example for simplicity because I think that is an even worse stat than RBI for measuring player performance.
Fair enough....
See Vlad’s list of LaRoche numbers above, especially the batting average with RISP.
Can we couple the 100 RBIs, with the .306 batting average with runners in scoring position, throw in the fact that LaRoche had 174 plate appearances with runners in scoring position during which he had 79 RBI (including 12 doubles & 10 HRs) , throw in the fact that he hit .333 in 49 PA’s with runners on 1st & 2nd (29 RBI), .364 in 24 PA with runners on 1st & 3rd (12 RBI), hit .444 with runners on 2nd & 3rd in 11 PAs (8 RBI), hit .375 with the bases loaded in 21 PAs (16 RBI), hit .333 with a runner on first and less than 2 outs in 116 PA (40 RBI), hit .409 with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs in 28 PA (22 RBI), and hit .289 with a runner on 3rd base and 2 out in 41 PA (17 RBI)……..and did it on a last place team. Can we NOW agree that he’s got a good bad???
?
Is it okay to say that a 100 RBI season is good with all of those additional stats added into the equation (I’m just having some fun, I understand the point that RBI, in and of themselves, is not really a good stat for comparisons. So a guy with 75 RBI, isn’t necessarily having a better year than a guy with 60, unless you know how many situations he’s been up in and how many he came through in).
I also love the he stinks early in the season argument...
as if somehow runs late in the season < runs early in the season.
If he could get Andy straightened out
we’d get a two-fer.
If Adam isn't the focal point of the offense
he could be a decent pick-up. We saw in his time here that he cannot be asked to carry an offense. I believe he is at his best when he is a supplemental player. In other words, if there are 2-3 other good offensive weapons in your lineup, he could make a real nice compliment to them. If Pedro, walker, McCutchen and Tabata are real offensive threats next season, LaRoche’s bat might look pretty nice in the 6 hole.
Agreed! I never mean to imply that Adam LaRoche will be the savior, but he’s a solid bat/glove. Again, my thought being that if you get a solid 1B option, you could move GFJ to right field and you could pick up a less-than-stellar glove with a big bat to be his platoon partner. If Jones is in right field, then the Pirates are okay to get an Andruw Jones, Austin Kearns, or Magglio Ordonez (guys you may only run out there as a starter only 50 or 60 times, and give you a nice bat off of the bench.)
The problem with NOT picking up a LaRoche-type guy is that it keeps Jones at first, where you still want a platoon partner for him there (which may or may not be Steve Pearce) AND you then need a full right fielder (who can do it with the glove and bat). In order to get a reasonable glove out in RF, the Pirates would probably have to sacrifice a lot of bat (to be something they can afford since a Werth or Crawford aren’t within the realm of possibility for the Bucs).
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