Non-Tender Deadline Approaching - Is J.J. Hardy Available?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Nov 29, 2010 4:22 AM EST
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There wasn't much news this weekend, but there probably will be in the coming week. The ultra-organized Pirates Prospects points out some deadlines this week. The key one for our purposes is that Thursday is the deadline for teams to decide whether to non-tender arbitration-eligible players.
The question of which players the Pirates will tender was probably decided when the Bucs designated arbitration-eligible players Zach Duke, Andy LaRoche and Delwyn Young for assignment. That leaves Joel Hanrahan, Ross Ohlendorf, Lastings Milledge, Ronny Cedeno and Jeff Karstens, and I assume all of those will be tendered contracts. (A final player who would have been arbitration-eligible, Wil Ledezma, already agreed to a deal.)
We'll also find out which players were non-tendered by other teams. Specifically, J.J. Hardy, who has the potential to help the Pirates considerably, could be available, especially after the Twins acquired Japanese infielder Tsuyoshi Nishioka. As of two weeks ago, Hardy hadn't heard from the Twins since the end of the season. One reporter recently wrote that the Twins could tender Hardy, however, even if they don't plan on having him with them come April, which makes some sense to me - Hardy has obvious value, and the salary he will get in arbitration shouldn't be wildly out of line, so it makes more sense for the Twins to tender him and try to trade him.
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Its a move....
…that if possible I hope the Pirates are strongly considering. I think Hardy could be a huge improvement and quite frankly his dirty-uniform, get my face in front of the ball attitude would be welcomed too. He has proven to have some pop in his bat and is steady, if not spectacular in the field-he will make the plays he should. While I realize he isn’t a 5-tool guy, and we probably couldn’t get him if he was, I do think he would ne a nice addition.
by Marooned Pirate on Nov 29, 2010 8:16 AM EST reply actions
I'll say it again...
The Pirates should get Hardy and leave Cedeño as backup. I don´t agree with moving Alvarez to 1b yet. The weakest spot on the infield is SS. Hardy has better defense and I think his bat will come alive again in the NL.
While they are it talking to the Twins, please check on some of their SP. The Twins really need to cut payroll and need cheap bullpen candidates (Hanrahan/Meek)
Is there anyway to at least find out if the Pirates are interested in Hardy like they did a couple of years ago?
Funny that they wanted to trade Hardy from Milwaukee back in 09 for Capps but the Brewers wanted Duke or Maholm. The Pirates refused and now two of those pitchers are out of Pittsburgh, and the third one soon to follow.
Hardy
He definitely would help.
But I don’t know what Barletta needs to see from Alvarez.
He was one of the worst 3b in the league last year.
He is going to end up at 1b.
Wny wait?
I wasn't exactly thrilled with Alvarez's defense at 3B either,
but I’d give him all of 2011 to see if he can improve.
all things pointing to the future
says yes, Alvarez will be at 1B. And if our predictions/rumors/guesses come true, we will be drafting Rendon as our future 3B. But if Rendon takes the quick approach to the majors like Alvarez, he will be here Summer 2013, which means until then, we have no 3B either. Pedro should stay at 3B until that time or transition to 1B during Spring 2013.
Mostly Hardy's Decision-Not the Bucs!
As we keep pointing out, it will be more the player’s decision if he wants to play for the Pirates than the Bucs decision-unless we backup up a truck and dump tons of money.
Guys like Hardy can find jobs with teams who have a chance to contend in 2011, so why sign with a team like the Bucs unless it pays a lot more $s or extra years on the contract?
I too would like to see him at SS but I think he would prefer to play for a winner.
Uh no
If Hardy is tendered, and the pirates trade for him, they control his rights. Hardy is not yet a free agent.
by titanlord91 on Nov 29, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Hardy
I think the plan is to trade for him being he would be nontendered.
Thus, he would not be a free agent if the Pirates offered him arbitration.
Not sure
There’s been some reports that the Twins are looking to Nishioka to play 2B. But I assume that means they’ll put Casilla in at SS. While I still like Cedeno and think he’s a good solid shortstop, I’ll all in favor of working to upgrade at any position on the diamond, as long as it doesn’t stop the team from using the money more wisely to upgrade elsewhere.
I’d especially be happy about it if the 2007-2008 Hardy joins the Bucs!!! Perhaps coming back to the NL Central is what he needs!
I’m not sure why the Twins would prefer Casilla at shortstop to Hardy.
by Adam Reynolds on Nov 29, 2010 11:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Enough $$ that a potential contender will roll with a bad ss instead of an average one? Would be strange.
by Adam Reynolds on Nov 29, 2010 12:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I read....
that the Twins were looking to inject some speed into their lineup, which might explain wanting to get Casilla in there, especially if they feel Nishioka is best suited at 2nd base . I also completely forgot about Orlando Hudson. I know the Twins were hoping he doesn’t accept arbitration, but if he does, there will be a little logjam in the middle infield. Especially, if you’ve got $11-12 million tied up in your back-ups (Hardy, Hudson). Will be interesting to watch what happens up there in the Twin Cities!
I agree with you, but....
I don’t see either Hardy or Hudson being back-ups either, I figure one or both of them are gone. I was merely saying that if Nishioka is your starting 2nd baseman and the Twins are looking to get Casilla in there more often, that, essentially makes Hardy & Hudson back-ups (and very expensive back-ups, at that). I think both are gone to help the Twins upgrade elsewhere…..do you think they have any interest in a catcher who can’t really catch anymore????
nope indeed
They already have too many poor fielding guys stuck at RF/1B//DH to fit Doumit in.
Doumit
The Pirates can try all they want. They are not unloading Doumit unless the team swallows most of the contract or takes a bad contract back.
or he starts to hit
enough to make up for his lack of defense
They are not unloading Doumit unless the team swallows most of the contract or takes a bad contract back.
Or unless he returns to his pre-2010 level of defense. In which case, he’s just as marketable as John Buck.
Well ...
the contract runs through next October, with a ridiculous option that won’t be exercised.
He better look like a defensive fiend in April and May so that the team can trade him.
Otherwise, he’s going to be in Pittsburgh all year.
I just don’t see that as a likely scenario.
If the Pirates do move him, it’ll be in July.
With Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer all already there?
Can’t see it.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard.
Hey, if you’re gonna call us birds you might as well call us chickens. -Leafer87
if Minnesota doesn't re-sign Thome, they might be interested in a DH
which would suit Doumit’s glove fine.
however, I’d bet that they would seek internal options before trading for Doumit and any portion of his salary.
they already have kubel and cuddyer to DH
neither of whom are good fielders
Just out of curiosity....
It would be a bit odd if the Twins tender Hardy an offer in arbitration, then trade him, the Pirates & Hardy don’t come to an agreement, and Hardy decides to take the Pirates to arbitration. I wonder how that would work, since the Pirates haven’t really seen much of Hardy to point out his “flaws” in an arbitration hearing. Would they get info on him from the Twins??
I’m sure this has happened before but it would be an odd situation, does anyone know the last time that a team traded for a guy and the new team had to go to an arbitration hearing on a player who hasn’t played for them yet?? (Granted that few hearings actually occur, I’m just curious.)
the olivo situation this season is similar
olivo is traded to the jays who will NOT go to arbitration with him just so they can get that supplemental draft pick. marlins are doing some weird shit this offseason. they could have easily done the same thing with olivo, plus they trade Uggla for naval lint.
by white angus on Nov 29, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
The Miguel Olivio situation WAS bizarre....
But I’m talking about a team trading for a guy who’s been offered arbitration and the new team actually ends up having to go to a hearing with its new player. I’m sure it’s happened a few times, but I couldn’t think of any.
I wonder how that would work, since the Pirates haven’t really seen much of Hardy to point out his "flaws" in an arbitration hearing. Would they get info on him from the Twins??
Don’t know that they’d ned all that much inside info. Hardy’s flaws are pretty obvious to the naked eye: .320 OBP this year, .302 the year before. Lot easier to talk to an arbitrator about that than it is to delve into the minutiae of defensive statistics.
Haha! Good point, Vlad!!
I’m just curious, in that situation, if teams would help each other out, by providing the new team with the info they could use in an arbitration hearing. Or would that be some kind of collusion???
I realize that the Pirates wouldn’t trade for Hardy if they felt they couldn’t work out an agreement, but I’m always interested in these kinds of unusual situation.
Last year...
The Nationals acquired Brian Bruney from the Yankees in December in exchange for the first pick in the Rule 5 draft. Bruney submitted $1.85 million while the Nationals put in $1.5 million. They didn’t reach an agreement despite not being all that far apart. The Nationals won the hearing. Bruney didn’t end up being worth anywhere near $1.5 million in the month and a half he spent with the team, though.
Curious to see what the Twins do
with either Hardy or Hudson. I would love to see either one in our infield because we will definitely need a defensive upgrade for the type of pitchers we already have and are looking at on the market.
Theriot in the mix
Since we are discussing upgrades at SS, what is the verdict on Ryan Theriot? With Juan Uribe likely going to the LAD, it seems his fate there is sealed, and is more likely to be non-tendered than Hardy. Isn´t Theriot an option for the Pirates, at least to compete and not just hand the position to Cedeño, because we all know neither Ciriaco or Diaz are viable backup options.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/dodgers-closing-in-on-deal-with-juan-uribe.html
I don't think....
that Uribe’s signing is going to impact Theriot’s playing time in LA. The Dodgers played Theriot exclusively at 2nd base after they picked him up. That doesn’t mean he’s not moveable, but I think the Dodgers are going to be pretty content to keep Theriot at 2B.
However....
I do know that LA is looking at Uribe possibly moving to 2B. Plus, I also completely forgot about Rafael Furcal!!! Okay, maybe Theriot WILL be the odd man out!!!
Joe Pawlikowski seems to think that the Dodgers will keep Theriot as a bench option to back up a injury prone Blake, Uribe and Furcal. It seems like he is the odd man out, but we may not be able to get him without a trade.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 29, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Furcal
is always on the DL.
Poor sausage. I end up with him sometimes on my FB team.
by BlindSquirrel on Nov 29, 2010 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure that Hardy
would be enough of a defensive upgrade to get him. He’s kind of a swinging door, both in the field and at the plate – limited range, limited pop, limited arm. He’ll have a better uncompensated fielding percentage than Cedeno, but that’s about it.
There just aren’t a lot of good SS options available to the PBC.
My heros have always been Steelers...
I agree with you...in theory....
Originally, I kind of thought the same thing, I don’t feel that SS is enough of a weakness on the Pirates to spend a lot of money to upgrade. However, that being said, if you’re only talking a few million more to get Hardy over Cedeno (without sacrificing your roster too much), than I say, by all means, do it.
limited pop
Unless we’re talking about the 2007-2008 J.J. Hardy!! I’d hardly say that 61 doubles and 50 HRs out of the SS position in 2 years is “limited pop”.
true
but i think we can all say, that hardy is better at face value than ronny cedeno overall, and has the potential to be much better. it all depends on how much they want to pay him.
And since it looks like 3B and 2B will have the same defenders as last season, i’d take any upgrade defensively at SS that I could find to improve our defense.
I worry about "face value".
The Pirates have been rolled by “face value” too many times.
My heros have always been Steelers...
have they?
Usually, their problem is they have too many guys who, at face value, just aren’t very good.
The only recent example I can think of is Iwamura, who, at face value, looked like a MUCH better option at 2B than Delwyn Young.
i dont think the pirates have been rolled by "face value" at all...
theyve been burned by untapped potential if anything.
Considering how well he was protected in that
Brewers lineup, and how many meaty pitches he saw, I’m kind of surprised he didn’t do better offensively. I live in SE WI, and get all the Brewers I want, and far more. He was a weak hitter in a strong lineup who saw lots of batting practice pitches.
“JJ, hit this one. Please. I don’t want to have to throw strikes to the others.”
His real chance at MLB success is to become Tim Foli.
My heros have always been Steelers...
if the Pirates acquire Hardy, I sure hope he turns out better than Tim Foli
because Foli had a career OPS+ of 64 and 1.2 WAR, while Hardy sits at 95 and 9.9, respectively
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