SB Nation Pittsburgh Editor's Pick
What the Pirates Stand to Gain by Rearranging the Infield
Given all the recent talk around here about the Pirates upgrading their infield defense, I thought I'd take a crack at calculating how much the proposed realignments would improve the Bucs. First, let's look at what we're starting with:
1b Jones +4, -8
2b Walker +7, -6
ss Cedeno -11, -3
3b Alvarez +7, -9
That's our starting point. The first number after each name is a simple marcel projection for batting runs per 600 PA. The second number is a defensive projection per 150 games. I calculated this by weighing the career UZR of each player against a 200-game sample of their scores in the fans' scouting report from the last two years. This gives us a decent balance of defensive stats and scouting info. As you can see, the current infield projects to yield seven runs above average on offense but a ghastly 26 runs below average on defense. The defense could certainly use an upgrade, as Charlie suggests.
So what would happen if the Pirates take Charlie's advice? He advocates benching Jones, moving Walker to third and Alvarez to first, and acquiring J.J. Hardy or Orlando Hudson to play with Ronny Cedeno in the middle infield. We have to make some assumptions in order to project how that infield would perform, because Alvarez has never played first and Walker has only played 15 games at third in the majors, so we don't have enough information to make objective projections about their abilities at those positions. It seems like Charlie believes that Walker can be average or better at third, and I've seen some comments suggesting that he would be a plus defender, so let's call him +5 on defense at third. Alvarez is a tougher case. He's a very bad defender, and though his lack of range and lead glove won't be so exposed at first, it's hard to imagine him being a plus there. I'll call him an average defender at first for the sake of argument. So Charlie's proposed infield would look like this:
1b Alvarez +7, 0
2b Cedeno -11, +2
ss Hardy -2, +9
3b Walker +7, +5
or
1b Alvarez +7, 0
2b Hudson +3, +3
ss Cedeno -11, -3
3b Walker +7, +5
The former alignment projects for +1 run on offense and +16 runs on defense, the latter for +6 on offense and +5 on defense. Either way, you get a plus defensive infield and sacrifice only a little on offense. Overall, the former alignment is a 36-run (3.5 win) improvement over what we have now, and the latter is about the same (30 runs, 3 wins). That's a drastic improvement!
But is it really the best option for the Pirates? The moves Charlie suggests would theoretically add three to 3.5 wins to the 2011 Pirates team, but the main drawback is that they would close the door on Walker as a second baseman. Is there a way to improve the infield defense, improve the 2011 team overall, and give Walker a longer look at second? I think so, and it starts with recognizing that neither Walker nor Alvarez are the main problems with the Pirates infield. The main problem with the Pirates infield is Ronny Cedeno.
Take a look at those projections for Cedeno. He's a below average fielder at shortstop and a terrible hitter. What if, instead of shuffling the infield all around and acquiring J.J. Hardy, we acquired Hardy and just substituted him into Cedeno's spot?
1b Jones +4, -8
2b Walker +7, -6
ss Hardy -2, +9
3b Alvarez +7, -9
That would give the Pirates 16 runs above average on offense and 14 runs below average on defense from their infield. Compared to our starting point, that's a full 12 run (one win) improvement on defense and a 21 run (two win) improvement overall. That's pretty good, but not as good as what Charlie's proposing. Is that all the Pirates can do to improve while leaving Walker at second? No, they have to further recognize that Jones is not a full-time option. In his short career his wRC+ (like OPS+, except it weights OBP and SLG properly) against RHP is 123, but against LHP it is a shockingly-bad 59. Finding a platoon partner for him who can also play good defense would be another way to improve the team. Luckily, the Pirates have just such a guy on hand already; his name is Steve Pearce. In his short career, Pearce's wRC+ vs. LHP is 144; against RHP it's 61. He's played so little that his UZR is basically worthless as a data point, but he's generally regarded as a decent defender at first.
What could we expect from a Pearce/Jones platoon? Calculating that will take a little work. First, we have to figure out an overall projection for both Pearce and Jones as hitters, and then we have to regress their observed platoon splits toward average platoon splits for RHH and LHH, respectively. Finally, we have to apply the regressed splits to their overall projections and weight them by expected playing time. So, for example, with Steve Pearce, using a simple marcel we'd project a .329 wOBA overall for him. Using a regressed platoon split, we'd project a .346 wOBA against LHP and a .320 wOBA against RHP. That .346 wOBA against LHP translates into +7 runs per 600 PA. If we do the same for Garrett Jones, we get a projection of +11 runs per 600 against RHP. Taking 2/3 of Jones and 1/3 of Pearce, we'd get +9.5 runs per 600 PA in a platoon. I'll round down to keep it simple.
As with Alvarez, I'll call Pearce an average defender at first. Weighting that with Jones' -8, we get -5 runs per 150 games on defense for the Pearce/Jones platoon. So with Hardy replacing Cedeno and Jones and Pearce platooning, we can expect this production:
1b Jones/Pearce +9, -5
2b Walker +7, -6
ss Hardy -2, +9
3b Alvarez +7, -9
In this scenario, the Pirates would get +21 runs on offense and -11 runs on defense from their infield. That's +10 runs overall, which is 29 runs better than our starting point. Remember, under Charlie's proposed scenarios, we'd be gaining 30 or 36 runs. This scenario is basically the same, but it has the added benefit of allowing the team to continue developing Walker at second base. The infield defense, in this scenario, is still below average, but not abominably so, and that weakness could be counteracted by targeting flyball pitchers like Aaron Harang or Javier Vazquez in free agency instead of groundball pitchers like Jake Westbrook and Zach Duke. If they wanted to go even further, they could trade the groundballing Paul Maholm and go with an all fly-ball pitching staff. (This proposal has the added benefit of increasing the number of strikeouts the pitching staff accumulates, further minimizing the impact of a below-average defense.)
Finally, I'd like to note that replacing Cedeno isn't predicated upon the availability of J.J. Hardy. As with Charlie's proposal (Hudson or Hardy), there are plenty of Cedeno replacements the Pirates could target. Free agent Juan Uribe would be +1 on offense and +2 on defense, making the infield +6 overall – a 25 run improvement over our current alignment. Trade candidate Jason Bartlett would be +3 on offense and +4 on defense – a 29-run improvement. There are several options for improving on Cedeno and thus improving the infield as a whole.
Of course, if the Pirates really wanted to go for broke, they could acquire both Hudson and Hardy (or Bartlett). That would be about a five-win improvement over what they have now.
Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to shifting the infield defense around. But I don't think it's necessary. The Pirates can improve the team just as much for just as cheaply in other ways, while still giving Walker the opportunity to develop as a second baseman.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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I was surprised
when I saw him play in the postseason. He is very quick and graceful for a big guy. He kind of reminded me of Adrian Beltre.
Beltre doesn't look all that big...
and he looks much more athletic than Uribe. Uribe would be a huge upgrade for us though.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
(By the way, I wasn’t really saying the Pirates should bench Jones, only that he should get most of his playing time from the outfield. Although even then I’d prefer to see a lot of Milledge and Bowker. I think ideally Jones would get 300 or so PAs in the outfield, pinch-hitting, and backing up at first.)
Thanks!
I really enjoyed this post.
It’s funny to look at J.J. Hardy and realize that even though he is pretty bad offensively, Ronny Cedeno is just flat-out horrible. Their defensive ability isn’t even close either.
I also like the idea of the Jones/Pearce platoon at 1B and adding Hardy at SS, while leaving Walker and Alvarez alone.
how about jones and milledge in right and bowker/pearce at 1b?
jones seems to be much better away from the infield
This is probably the worst case scenario...
in that it is the likely scenario if we cannot upgrade. However, if that is the worst case scenario it would still be a pretty decent improvement over last season if the platoon is used correctly. That said, I like Bowker’s swing but I’m not sold on him yet.
Yea thanks for writing this, well thought out.
I would love to get Hardy in FA this winter. Doesnt have the best range but makes up for it with a cannon arm.
the article above says bartlett is a plus 4 on defense
yet UZR says bartlett was awful with the glove this season. once again, im having a hard time accepting the defensive stats of players when nothing makes sense except fielding pct.
You're looking at one season.
And as people on here have told you again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and AGAIN! one season of UZR data is useless. Over his career, Bartlett is a plus defender with a 4.5 UZR/150
www.stealingfirstbase.com
Yep...for his career.
However…his yearly numbers provide a chilling trend in UZR/150.
2006 +17.8 99 games
2007 + 9.2 138 games
2008 + 2.8 122 games
2009 – 6.9 134 games
2010 -13.8 131 games
While a season may not be enough to use UZR…it’s a fairly accepted view that 3 seasons…in this case nearly 400 games…is enough to use it reasonably…if it is to be used at all. And if you use his 2008-2010 seasons…it works out to about a minus 6 UZR/150. I want no part of him. He may even be a step back from Cedeno…and he’s had a decent pitching staff in front of him.
I agree with you here Thunder...
I think 3 straight season of declining UZR data is enough to show that Bartlett is on the decline defensively. As such I think it is overly optimistic to project a +4 defender. I’m not sure how epoc projected the UZR data but the more recent seasons should have been weighted more heavily than earlier seasons.
Yeah, I was wondering about Bartlett too. This is where using a fan projection might not be such a good idea. He has such a good defensive reputation, but that’s largely because of what happened in 2008. He’s two years older now.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Nov 5, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not disagreeing.
I’m just saying that we’ve had this UZR discussion before several times, and angus continues to insist on pointing at one bad year as a sign that UZR is fundamentally flawed. Bartlett has gone downhill defensively, but you have to use more than one year of data to reach that conclusion.
www.stealingfirstbase.com
i dont see how a player can regress on DEFENSE so badly in such a small period of time
that is why im not sold on UZR.
How can Nate McLouth regress on OFFENSE so badly in one year?
It’s why I’m not sold on offensive statistics. I just trust my eyes.
Not hitting well
seems equivalent to fielding baseballs to you?
p.s. uzr is based on observations and not easy ones to make
Yeah, it's really hard...
…to tell whether a ball hit the ground in one part of the field or another. Or whether it was a line drive or a fly ball.
I mean, when watching games, I know I’m often totally helpless at telling whether a ground ball went to the left or the right of the second baseman! It’s so tough! How can a person tell?
The opposite, I'm afraid.
Religion is faith in the absence of evidence, whereas it was evidence that drove me to UZR in the first place.
That's your own view of the word religion
I know from experience, the quickest way to get in a catfight is to ask for evidence to support a commercial product like UZR and/or to offer evidence that contradicts it – observation.
Its really quite amazing that as easy as it would be to add a camera to the roof of a single stadium which could be used to test or refine their methods, they don’t bother. I still think it would be entertaining, interesting and useful to have tv viewers on a blog like this, do a game or 2 or 3 and compare results.
evidence that contradicts it – observation
Observational evidence often doesn’t carry much weight in arguments of this nature, because it’s difficult to objectively assess from the outside due to the absence of a document trail or a repeatable component. Surely you can understand that I can’t just take your word for something like that – if I believe in following the evidence, I need to have actual evidence to follow.
I still think it would be entertaining, interesting and useful to have tv viewers on a blog like this, do a game or 2 or 3 and compare results.
I would also be interested to see this – it’d be a useful check and balance on their work.
Once again angus...
he didn’t regress over a small period of time. He’s regressed significantly every season for the last four seasons. Again, you either choose to ignore this fact or you disagree with it. If you disagree with it I would like to hear your reasoning behind. But you just continue to say the same things over and over again while ignoring the people who actually answer your question.
i dont see how a player can regress on DEFENSE so badly in such a small period of time that is why im not sold on UZR.
>:P
I get that...
So am I to understand that you think four years is a small period of time? If that’s the case than I will just respectfully disagree and leave it at that.
Bartlett and defensive projection
Defensive stats are very unreliable. As such, you need to use as much data as possible. If you limit yourself to most recent years, you might catch a trend or you might be fooled by outliers. With Bartlett, for instance, his UZR in the last three years has been negative, but his +/- has been positive (-2, +4, +2 from 2008-2010). So which is correct? We have no way of knowing, but we do know that the more data we use the more confident we can be in our projections. That is why I used career UZR instead of just the last three years.
You could weight more recent years if you wanted, but you should still use the whole sample, I think. I’m not going to take the trouble to go through all that again, but I don’t think you’ll end up seeing Bartlett as any worse than average or so if you do this.
I dislike the idea of subjectively deciding for whom the methodology won’t work and tinkering with things on that basis. If you don’t like the fans’ scouting report because you think it’s biased in some way(s), you can regress everyone to league average instead. This will drastically improve the ratings for Jones and Alvarez and marginally decrease the ratings for Bartlett and Hardy. For everyone else, it won’t be a big change. As long as you use a consistent methodology it won’t be a problem, and in this particular case it won’t significantly affect the conclusions.
Angus, I love ya, but how does fielding percent make sense? Doesn’t account for range and misplays. Only if the ball hits your glove and you drop it do you lose credit. I could stand in RF and not move and as long as I don’t get hit with the ball, I could have a perfect fld%.
by Wizard of Woz on Nov 5, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
and yet...
Wizard: conversely, you could have a fielder who is positioned properly, but when the pitcher misses his spot has balls hit in his direction…but his positioning affected his statistics negatively. This could be said for McCutchen in CF — positioned for one thing, but due to poor location getting “left out to dry”. His speed makes up for some of it…but poor location by pitchers is a huge hinderance.
by insane_sanity on Nov 5, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
jeter has never been UZR friendly
yet will end up considered a “not awful” fielder, with 3000 hits, etc…
No, he’ll end up being considered a great fielder.
THREE GOLD GLOVES! THAT ONE PLAY HE MADE WHEN HE WAS THE THIRD CUTOFF MAN AND THREW OUT A RUNNER AT HOME!
www.stealingfirstbase.com
Because he's not a particularly good defender.
For most of his career, he’s been functionally helpless on balls hit on the ground to his left. Which is kind of a problem when you’re a shortstop…
This is why I love Jeter
“Functionally helpless.” That’s awesome. And of course, absurd.
There's a reason that "past a diving Jeter"...
…is a meme.
Jeter is good at some things on defense. Moving to his left on ground balls is not one of them, and unfortunately for him, that’s a pretty important skill for a shortstop.
if we truly want a great UZR guy, lets go after Adam Everett
probably the best fielding shortstop of this era not named Vizquel, and both UZR and old skoolers would have to agree that his glove is fantastic.
Well, he'd definitely be a defensive upgrade over Cedeno.
Neither can really hit, so he can’t be worse.
www.stealingfirstbase.com
No, no, no!
Not all bad hitters are created equal.
Cedeno put up an 82 OPS+ last year. That’s a pretty marginal offensive season. Adam Everett, in his last semi-full MLB season, put up a 61 OPS+. As such, on offense Cedeno was worth about 10 runs more than Everett, a non-trivial difference.
Just because two hitters are both bad does not mean that you can ignore the fact that one is less bad than the other and write it off as a wash. This applies also to the people calling for Argenis Diaz to get a look at shortstop for us…
for the record, im not for signing adam everett
just trying to make a point. as soon as i figure out what point that was, i’ll let you know.
Excellent Post
That was an interesting read. I honestly don’t see what the Bucs’ management sees in Cedeno, but they keep running him out there. No better alternatives at this point I guess. It would be interesting to run those numbers with Diaz or Ciriaco. Way minus on the offensive number no doubt, but how would the defensive number come out?
Ciriaco and Diaz
Thanks for the compliment. About Ciriaco and Diaz, I can’t run the numbers for them in the same way I did for everyone else, because there’s basically no major league data for either of them. But if you use CHONE’s projections, Ciriaco and Diaz are both even worse than Cedeno. Basically, they hit about as bad at AAA as Cedeno did in the majors, so they’re not a good bet to be an improvement.
Seems to overrate...
…Pedro’s likely defensive ability at 1B for 2011. Also doesn’t account for Walker’s certain improvement at 2B, even if it’s not waay better.
Also, I’m kinda stunned that there’s all these middle infielders available to give us 3-6 more wins just like that. If it’s that easy, maybe Huntington critics have some good points to make as far as not acquiring good major league talent. Why the heck did we have Cedeno and Iwamura in the first place??
Yes, this
Or to put it another way: Is it valid to assume that Walker will improve by nine runs by moving from second to third yet not improve at all staying put? Or that Pedro will improve by 11 runs by moving from third to first, yet not improve at all staying put? Two-thirds of the improvement (20 out of 30-36 runs) comes from those two moves, but there’s little to no data supporting those numbers.
agreed
DG: I agree with you 100% on Alvarez. A poor defender will becomes +9 runs defensively…by moving to a position he has NEVER played?!?!? This post puts forth an incredibly optimistic view of Alvarez’s immediate defensive impact at 1B. Don’t kid yourself – Pedro Alvarez’s impact will not be in the field; it will be at the plate.
Again, a lot of optimistic bias exists in the Walker move as well — will our defense improve as much with Walker at 3B…if it means Alvarez at 1B? A good 1B can save your infield som errors, and your pitcher runners.
Why not fix SS and 1B? What about trying Diaz at SS, and going out and signing Derrek Lee to play some 1B? Diaz will have poor offense, but as I understand it he plays great defense. Derrek Lee would provide some solid defense at 1B, and as a right handed hitter possibly provide some protection for P. Alvarez in the batting order. Keeping Walker/Alvarez in their positions, the inherent improved defense that comes with experience at those positions (or even if they don’t change) would drastically improve the overall defensive numbers.
by insane_sanity on Nov 5, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
yes
As I noted, we have to make some assumptions about how the position changes would affect Walker and Alvarez’s defense. If you don’t believe the assumptions I make in this post, you obviously will not agree with the conclusions.
However, if the disagreement is over whether position changes for Alvarez and Walker would so drastically improve their defense, then I think there’s still a lot to take out of this post. For instance, those disagreements wouldn’t affect the suggestion I make to replace Cedeno and leave Walker and Alvarez where they are.
Great post by the way...
and I think there is a lot to be gained by replacing Cedeno and Jones. In fact, I think that is the likely path the front office will take. That coupled with, hopefully, some improvements from Walker at 2B should make the IF better. Probably not enough for Duke, and probably Maholm, to regain their best numbers but better. I think the idea of acquiring a fly ball pitcher needs to be thoroughly examined because not only does it play to the teams strengths (or rather against its weakness) it plays to the home park strengths. This is the reason I too feel Harang would be a good fit and I think he could be had on a reasonable deal. Nice work!
Yes
If you simply replace Cedeno with Hardy, your projections would indicate a two-win improvement, as you said. Simply projecting a half-win improvement from Pedro and Walker at their current positions would get back to the three wins improvement from moving around all the deck chairs (h/t cocktails). I don’t know if it’s reasonable to expect a five-run improvement in defense for a player’s second year at a position in the majors, but it certainly doesn’t sound unreasonable – and no less reasonable than expecting a ten run or so improvement moving to a new position (or in Walker’s case, back to his second position – remember, he was originally a catcher).
So the key is upgrading Cedeno, not moving everyone around.
this is dangerous thinking
Bear a few things in mind.
First off, the defensive projection for Walker already comes with a huge built-in improvement. According to UZR, he was a -17 run defender last year. This projection is an 11 run improvement, which comes about entirely because of regression to the scouting reports, which see him as only slightly below average (-2 or so). Projecting another 5 run improvement on top of that is probably too optimistic.
Secondly, Walker and Alvarez are just as likely to get worse as to get better. Projections aren’t guarantees. As you say, Walker and Alvarez could both be 5 runs better than these projections. But they could just as easily both be 5 runs worse. Jumping from the fairly reasonable assumption that they could be 5 runs better than their projections to a totally different, better projection, is not sound reasoning.
in the little i saw
Diaz’ was a butcher with the glove. This is anecdotal, of course, and it could have been big league nerves, given his reputation, but I didn’t see him as a defensive upgrade over anything.
As I said in the last thread where you brought this up...
…I don’t think you should be using the data from the Fans’ Scouting Report that way. It’s not a reliable data source for you to regress against.
if you have
a reasonable, logical argument for why you believe this, I’d be willing to debate it.
It's basically an internet poll.
We all know how reliable those are. And the number of people being polled is very small – particularly for a relatively unpopular team like the Pirates. Our fielders are being graded based on the responses of a total of 50 random yinzers, none of whom rated every player. As such, a few anomalous responses for any given player would carry significant weight – particularly if voters ignored Tango’s instruction to grade players without regard for my position, as (in my experience) some inevitably do. Jason Jaramillo’s grade comes from a total of sixteen responses. If even one person fucks up and grades him only against catchers, that’s 6+% of your response sample, totally wrong and useless.
Also, to the best of my knowledge, it’s never been tracked for accuracy against actual run figures, or against advanced defensive metrics.
I think it’s an interesting toy, and potentially a useful sanity check on purely mechanical methods of assessment, but not as yet rigorous enough for the use to which you’re trying to put it.
by Vlad on Nov 5, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
One thing I'll note
and I don’t have an opinion on the FSR either way, is that the fact that none of the 59 respondents rated every player, while it does reduce n, it also indicates rigor. Someone filling out the Report carelessly would just run through and rate every player, substituting reputation for personal opinion. But instead what we see is, I think, evidence of people who care enough to offer their opinions when they feel certain and to remain silent when they don’t.
Alternatively, they could just be showing up to give ups or downs to players they love or hate, and ignoring the remainder.
the fact that none of the 59 respondents rated every player, while it does reduce n, it also indicates rigor.
It potentially also indicates apathy, if people got bored before finishing the whole roster. Or bias, if they only had an axe to grind with a few players, and didn’t really care about the grades for the others.
50 random yinzers
What a disturbing image. Or a great band name. Or both.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
You have two choices.
You can regress to scouting reports or you can regress to average. In my opinion, scouting reports are valuable, though subjective, because, as you say, they provide a sanity check on statistics that are extremely unreliable. If you’d prefer to regress toward average, you can do that instead. But it is just that – a preference. There is nothing invalid about using scouting reports as a regression tool, even if those scouting reports come from anonymous persons. Despite the small number of voters, it happens to be the largest collection of scouting reports available, and thus is the best source to use if you wish to include scouting in your regression.
You can’t track it for accuracy against run figures or metrics. That’s the whole point. It is an independent thing. That the scouting reports might differ from the metrics is not a flaw; it’s just a separate data point. You can’t use the scouting or the metrics as a baseline for accuracy, because neither is independently verified as accurate.
It is what it is. It’s a bunch of scouting reports. Scouting is subjective and prone to bias. If you want to use scouting, you have to deal with it. As I mentioned above, the biases of 20-50 people will go a long way toward canceling one another out, and whatever collective biases are left are certainly preferable to the individual biases of singular persons. If you are uncomfortable with the subjectivity of scouting, that is fine. But being intersubjective, this project is closer to objectivity than individual scouting reports are.
I hope I am making myself clear. Rigorousness has nothing to do with it. It is (inter)subjective, certainly, but that doesn’t invalidate it.
Nonetheless, if your discomfort with subjectivity leads you to prefer average as the uniform regression point, that’s fine. As I noted above, that method will drastically improve the ratings for Jones and Alvarez, marginally decrease the ratings for Hardy and Bartlett, and have very little effect on anyone else.
False dichotomy.
You can regress to scouting reports or you can regress to average.
Or, you can not run a regression analysis at all, if you aren’t confident in your data source. Which, in this case, you shouldn’t be.
If I were going to run a regression analysis on fielding numbers of this sort, I’d do it against the best available fielding numbers from AA and AAA. Those aren’t particularly reliable indicators, but at least then you aren’t mixing fish and fowl.
There is nothing invalid about using scouting reports as a regression tool, even if those scouting reports come from anonymous persons.
The problem isn’t that the responders are anonymous. If we were talking about data collected from a hundred anonymous professional scouts, that would be fine. The problem is that there aren’t enough responders, and that the responders that there are are not screened in any way for competence or comprehension of the grading instructions.
I was a Wikipedia admin for a number of years. Trust me – collective labor from a group of random internet people with varying levels of topic-related knowledge has a very low signal-to-noise ratio.
I should also add...
…that I’m fine with subjective analysis, as long as it’s presented as such. What you’re doing here is taking subjective analysis and wrapping it in the bloody, cast-off skin of quantitative analysis.
I am confident in the data source.
If you are not, fine. Use average as your point of regression.
You absolutely should not use no regression. That is the worst thing you can do. The data is too unreliable and the sample sizes, in most of these cases, are much, much too small.
You also can’t run regressions on minor league numbers, because they are based on different baselines (the average fielder in AA or AAA are not the same as the average fielders in MLB). Plus, the sample sizes are mostly too small. And some of the players haven’t played in the minors for 5-6 years now. In fact, thinking about it now, regressing toward minor league data is probably even worse than not regressing at all.
Besides that, the whole point is to mix fish and fowl! You want something that is not a metric to stabilize your metric. That’s the whole point of regression. Regressing a sample of a player’s stats toward another sample of his stats tells you absolutely nothing.
I understand that you don’t trust the fans’ scouting report, but that absolutely does not make it incorrect to use it as your point of regression. Scouting is a perfectly valid thing to use as a point of regression on defensive statistics. If you trust neither the number of responders nor their credentials, fine. Use average as your regression point. But your lack of trust does not constitute a valid argument against the methodology.
As for wrapping subjectivity in the bloody skin of quantitative analysis or whatever, get real. I am not pretending that the fans’ scouting reports are objective. And even you yourself admit that you wouldn’t have a problem with what I’m doing if the scouting reports I used were the compilation of a hundred reports from pro scouts. It’s not like I’m nefariously trying to sneak some subjectivity in the back-door of this rigorous objective analysis. I am objectively deriving a projection from an objectively-derived compilation of subjective scouting reports. Again, there’s nothing invalid about that. In fact, not only is it perfectly valid, it’s the best way to do this sort of thing, because it tells you more than does the assumption that everyone’s regression point is average.
You absolutely should not use no regression. That is the worst thing you can do. The data is too unreliable and the sample sizes, in most of these cases, are much, much too small.
I did not suggest that you run an analysis with no regression. I suggested that if the data from the FSR was the best info you had on hand, you should not run an analysis at all.
You also can’t run regressions on minor league numbers, because they are based on different baselines
You can correct for that, the same way that you correct for it on minor league offensive numbers when calculating MLEs.
Besides that, the whole point is to mix fish and fowl! You want something that is not a metric to stabilize your metric.
Not if you’re “stabilizing” your metric with garbage data. I could give you a list of randomly generated numbers – would they also be suitable for “stabilizing” your defensive metric?
I am not pretending that the fans’ scouting reports are objective.
Yes, you are, by converting subjective, potentially inaccurate inputs into numerical quantities.
And even you yourself admit that you wouldn’t have a problem with what I’m doing if the scouting reports I used were the compilation of a hundred reports from pro scouts.
Why do you say that like it’s an unreasonable position? If I wanted to get information on cancer rates, wouldn’t I do better by asking doctors than random people on the downtown bus? I don’t entirely trust their opinions, either, but we would at least be able to assume that they knew about baseball and understood how to assess and grade defensive attributes.
In fact, not only is it perfectly valid, it’s the best way to do this sort of thing, because it tells you more than does the assumption that everyone’s regression point is average.
Only if you implicitly assume that the numbers from the FSR have inherent validity and value – which, as we’ve already established, I don’t, in the absence of evidence that this is actually true.
Fine
Use average as the regression point.
1B Jones is -3
2B Walker is -5
SS Cedeno is -3
3B Alvarez is -3
Conclusion: no need to change the defense because it’s really not that bad. Find someone who can hit to play SS and platoon Jones and Pearce at first, and call it a day.
Good enough.
I don’t think that those are particularly accurate numbers, and as such I reject the conclusion that they suggest, but at least the methodology is more sound.
Well, yeah, it is.
Because the FSR numbers are inherently unreliable, due to the nature of the data collection and the lack of normalization. Whereas we actually know what league average is.
Average is unreliable in the same way
Namely, that it might not apply in any meaningful sense to any given player. And in the same sense, we already know what a given player’s score in the fans’ scouting report is, just like we already know what league average is.
Look, I get that you have personal doubts about the accuracy of the fans’ scouting report, and I further understand that you have intractable personal feelings about the defensive abilities of our infielders, but you are wrong about either one of those being valid criticisms of a methodology that uses the fans’ scouting report as a baseline for regression.
It’s also become obvious that your personal feelings about the Pirates infield are going to inform your conclusions far more than any objective analysis ever could, so I don’t see any reason to argue about this anymore.
Average is unreliable in the same way. Namely, that it might not apply in any meaningful sense to any given player.
No, average is unreliable in only one way, while the FSR data is unreliable in several. Average may not be meaningful when applied to any given player, but at least we know that it is meaningful as as a data point in isolation – the value of average can be empirically determined with a reasonable degree of certainty, using a defined, repeatable methodology. Whereas the FSR numbers are unreliable both because we are unsure not only whether they are meaningful when applied to any given player but also whether they are meaningful in and of themselves, due to the sources of error inherent to the collection and assessment process (which I described earlier).
I get that you have personal doubts about the accuracy of the fans’ scouting report…but you are wrong about [that] being a valid criticism of a methodology that uses the fans’ scouting report as a baseline for regression
Why is the introduction of significant sources of potential error into your data set not a valid criticism of the methodology? If you can’t be sure that Mets fans as a class are using the same grading scale as Pirates fans when assessing players, or that a Giants player with a given numerical value is delivering a comparable amount of defensive value as a Padres or Cardinals player with the same given numerical value, or that the opinions of the fans responding to the poll are representative of the team’s fan base at large, or that the results aren’t being skewed by either deliberate malfeasance or simple incompetence, then how can you try to draw firm conclusions from those numbers?
It’s also become obvious that your personal feelings about the Pirates infield are going to inform your conclusions far more than any objective analysis ever could, so I don’t see any reason to argue about this anymore.
I have both personal feelings about Pirates fielders and analytical objections to your methodlogy, and because I’m an adult, I’m capable of compartmentalizing and separating the one from the other. If you’d prefer to pretend that I’m objecting to your use of the FSR “data” because I disagree with your conclusions, in order to avoid having to deal with my analytical objections, so be it. If that’s the case, I hope that you’ll be more open to similar feedback from others in the future, because I hate to see someone waste this much work on a task that’s fatally flawed from the get-go.
On a personal level, I must also admit that I find it insulting that you want to handwave my objection away as a fit of pique over an inconvenient truth. I’ve always taken great pains to separate statements of fact from statements of opinion in my comments on this board, and I would have thought that I’d have earned a reasonable amount of faith and credit here as a participant in intelligent discourse. I guess not.
If all we get from this post is that Cedeno is the problem
It’s a great post.
by azibuck on Nov 5, 2010 9:24 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I concur...
This is the conclusion that’s ahead to hide from.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
minor quibble
after moving cedeno to 2nd, you’ve given him the same defensive rating (-11) as he had playing shortstop. maybe i’m wrong about this but the general consensus is that 2nd is an easier position to play, thus his defensive rating should be higher.
that's offense
He’s -11 on offense no matter which position he plays. He’s +2 on defense at 2b and -3 on defense at ss.
my mistake
flipped the numbers.
is the offense rating position based or just overall? wouldn’t his offense play worse at 2b?
“Alvarez is a tougher case. He’s a very bad defender, and though his lack of range and lead glove won’t be so exposed at first, it’s hard to imagine him being a plus there. I’ll call him an average defender at first for the sake of argument.”
That seems like a pretty bad assumption. I would project Alvarez to be a below average first baseman. Also I think Walker projects to be average at third. I am all for improving the defense, but I think you are over-estimating those two a little bit.
Watching Alvarez
play 3rd last year I just can’t see him digging throws out of the dirt at first. I can just see tons of runners ending up at 2nd or 3rd. I don’t think he would be any better at 1st then Doumit.
by oldfrothingslosh on Nov 5, 2010 2:12 PM EDT reply actions
Digging throws
May be the easiest thing that a 1b can do.
It’s really not that hard if you practice it.
He would be fine at first.
I played 1st base on a championship team
and I thought that was the hardest part.
When I turned 8 they moved me to the bench.
by oldfrothingslosh on Nov 5, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Given the title of this post,
I’m a little disappointed that nobody has made a “deck chairs/Titanic” comment.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
Thanks
for all the kind words. I’m glad so many of you enjoyed this.
I appreciate the effort that went into this but I find it hard to believe GFJ has a +4 bat, he was pretty awful this year. Also, I’ve never seen anything that says Hardy would be +9 defensively. I always thought of him as avg to slightly above.
Hardy and Jones
Hardy’s career UZR/150 is +11. His career +/- is about +9 per 150 games. I’m not sure what things you’ve seen, but Hardy is an excellent defender.
Jones was awful this year, but awesome last year. CHONE’s updated projection through August 28 has him as +6.
And the numbers Jones put up in 5 years in the minors at AAA would indicate that the 2010 version of Jones is much closer to what would have been realistically expected of him than the 2009 version. Five years at AAA gave him triple slash numbers of .265/.321/.463. Those aren’t converted to major league numbers (and minorleaguesplits.com no longer is active, so I can’t get his MLE’s). In any case a player with a .784 AAA OPS over 5 years would be much more liable to put up a .720 major league OPS than a .939 OPS. Jones’ HIGHEST AAA OPS was .850.
I think the FO office agrees with you
which is why they’ve talked about a platoon partner for him.
As I write that, I suddenly can’t refer to a specific instance where they’ve said that, but I’m pretty sure it was said.
Redeemed.
true
But marcel doesn’t know about Jones’ minor league career.
That being said, a projection of 4 on offense is much closer to what Jones did in 2010 (-2.5 per 600 PA) than what he did in 2009 (34.4 per 600 PA). So, though I agree with you, I don’t think what you’re saying is at odds with what I posted.
Just a heads up
The minor league splits MLE calculator is still available (for now, at least) if you use the direct link. You just have to enter the data manually.
[Link]
thanks Matt
If you add the 2008 and 2009 MLEs into Jones’ projection you get +2.5 runs per 600 PA instead of +4.
I guess you're right on Hardy
Maybe I was thinking of someone else or going by what others had said, never bothered to look him up.
I’d still agree with Thunder on GFJ though. Then again, you had Pearce as a 0 defender so that probably balances out your prediction to be pretty accurate.
Great Post...
and I like your idea much better than Charlie’s. I wouldn’t want to move Alvarez or Walker right now because I belive Walker can turn into an average defender and I want Alvarez to hold down the fort for Anthony Rendon who I believe will more than likely be a part of our team at some point really soon. If we were to get a purely defensive SS(like Jack Wilson but younger), have Rendon’s above average D at 3rd, Walker’s potential avg D at 2nd, and Alvarez not screwing things up at first, then we could have an above average defense overall. Sanchez behind the plate, improvements in CF by Cutch, and Starling Marte or Andrew Lambo in right would also improve the team by a lot. I am really looking forward to our future team.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
plus the improved pitching coming up through the system
i am looking forward to our future teams as well
Jones
Jones is not a defensive 1st basemen, that is for sure, he can play right field and they won’t get anyone that will hit more homeruns or get more RBI’s than Jones for the right field position.
Put him in right field and leave him there.
Walker should move to 3rd because he is not a 2nd basemen, he is athletic and will do an adequat job. I have seen him play 3rd and IMO he could develop into a very good 3rd basemen, it comes down to Walker developing into an adequat 2nd basemen or a good 3rd basemen.
Alvarez is going to move to 1st base eventually, might as well make it sooner than later.
With this change, they are looking at finding a 2nd basemen somewhere, a JJ Hardy would do.
As has been pointed out before...
RBI can be a highly misleading stat. Especially when one removes the HR from the RBI total. Why would one want to do this?? To see how many teammates he knocks in. For example…which hitter likely means more to his team (assume the same BA)…someone with 20 HR and 120 RBI or someone with 40 HR and 80 RBI?? The guy with 120 RBI produced more runs for the team.
Jones in 2009 hit .293 with a .938 OPS but drove in 23 other Pirates (44 total RBI) in 82 games.
Jones in 2010 hit .247 with a .720 OPS but drove in 65 other Pirates (86 total RBI) in 158 games.
I’d take the guy with the .938 OPS as it’s rather unlikely that you would get that little production (driving in other teammates) next time around. I’d also be somewhat confident that if the guy with the .720 OPS shows up again, he would likely drive in considerably fewer runs. In fact, had Jones’ numbers been reversed (at least RBI/game, not actual total), they would have made more sense.
On a 162 game rate…Pedro is already more productive than Jones. And Walker, believe it or not, is right there with Jones. Pedro on a 162 game rate…109 RBI…Walker 84 and Jones 81.
When it comes to wRC+ (weighted runs created)…Jones grades out 3rd from the bottom of the regular 1B…and next to last in RF. Heck…he’s behind Pedro, Walker , Doumit, Cutch and Tabata on the Pirates and tied with Milledge.
Jones isn’t going to be as hard to replace overall as one might think. Unless you are only looking at RBI numbers.
by Thunder on Nov 6, 2010 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Quick Note
Don’t know if this was brought up in the previous post about improving the defense (I really couldn’t be bothered with going through all 250+ posts), but not only does improving the defense mean extra wins, but it vastly improves the value of Maholm and Duke.
In hindsight, it would have been smart to trade Duke after last year given how much the defense made his basic numbers stand out. If we improve the defense this year to the point where we can expect Duke’s peripherals to maybe even out-perform his basic numbers (mainly I’m referring to ERA here), we can flip him for something useful. The same can be said for Maholm.
That said, I would totally be for an upgrade at SS in the form of Hardy, but I wouldn’t be completely ready to give up on Walker at second just yet (seems a bit premature, although perhaps I’m just being overly optimistic). From there I would move Pedro to first and add a defensive first 3rd (who, I’m not really sure of, but I’m in agreement that Pedro has little chance at improving at third).
Just my thoughts.

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