Pirates Sign Lyle Overbay To Be Starting First Baseman
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 1:30 PM EST
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PrintThe Pirates have signed first baseman Lyle Overbay, the team tweets. Overbay will be 34, and his ZiPS Projection has him hitting .244/.336/.423. Depending on how the Pirates were going to divide time at first base, he's probably an upgrade on defense, since he has been pretty consistently above average for his career, but I don't know how wise it is to expect a 34-year-old to maintain his career norms. And, obviously, Overbay can't really hit anymore.
We'll wait to see how much the contract costs, but the absolute best we can say about something like this is that it's unlikely to be harmful. It remains to be seen how the Pirates will divvy up playing time in first and right with Overbay, Garrett Jones, Steve Pearce, Matt Diaz and John Bowker, but given the choice between giving more opportunities to younger, cost-controlled guys like Pearce and Bowker or older, stopgap guys like Overbay and Diaz, the Pirates have apparently chosen the latter. This seems strange to me given that there's very little upside here if Overbay and Diaz work out, and Bowker and Pearce are fairly likely to keep pace with Overbay and Diaz anyway.
Of course, Overbay is a lefty and Pearce is a righty, and Diaz is a righty while Bowker is a lefty, so there's some tiny chance the Pirates could finagle some reasonably effective platoons, but the fact that Garrett Jones will probably take a bunch of playing time makes that unlikely. And besides, the team's Littlefield-like decision to add Overbay in the first place gives me little faith that the Bucs are going to be especially clever about the way these players are used.
Two big thumbs down on this whole offseason so far, by the way. After three years of proudly - and rightly - telling casual fans to shove it, the Pirates now seem to be packing for yet another Drive For 75. Well, it probably won't work, because guys like Overbay and Diaz and Kevin Correia aren't good enough, and it will make the Pirates even more depressing for those of us who actually pay attention, because watching Steve Pearce try to become a part of the Pirates' future is a lot more interesting than watching Lyle Overbay.
I'm probably overreacting somewhat, but this signing annoys me. Overbay doesn't even really appear to be an upgrade at this point.
UPDATE 2:14 PM: Jenifer Langosch writes that Garrett Jones will platoon with Matt Diaz in right field. Overbay will be the everyday first baseman, which, ugh. Ryan Doumit will be a bench player. It sounds like Pearce and Bowker are pretty much screwed, which isn't the worst injustice in the world but which doesn't make a lot of sense. Enjoy 600 plate appearances from Lyle Overbay, Pirates fans.
UPDATE 2:56 PM: It's one year, $5 million, Rob Biertempfel says.
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How weird is it
to see the team’s Twitter page be the first to report a free agent signing? The local writers are getting scooped by everyone this offseason.
In the team's defense ...
NH makes the signing. Goes to Jennifer, “Hey, put this on twitter.”
That’s much easier than DK developing a story and then putting it online.
Oh no! We’re not going to count on Garrett Jones, who in the second half hit roughly .200/.270/.370 (not gonna look up exact figures again.)! Worst signing ever!
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 1:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions
For some reason I don’t have much confidence this will turn out to be true. Jones will still get quite a lot of playing time. And I’m not sure Overbay is better than Jones anyway.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
As far as I can tell, I agree, but the quality of their hitting is similar, and Jones is several years younger.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Well, the way to fix that problem isn’t to bring in Overbay, it’s to play Steve Pearce against lefties.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
+ .929 (Pearce career OPS against lefties)
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
Pearce hits arb before 2012, at which point you have to justify the price of keeping him. Combine that with Pedro moving to first next season, and Pearce its arguably no more a long term piece than Overbay.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 2:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It’s not unreasonable to think Pearce could justify that price, at least for a year or two, with a good season. First-year arbitration salaries aren’t very high.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
especially when you haven’t played much.
anymore, arbitration seems to be as much about playing time as it is production. (play 150 games and get a pay raise, regardless of production)
by insane_sanity on Dec 14, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
Bucs don’t mess around with arb. Only the no-brainer candidates were tendered this year, the borderline candidates either had to accept a cheaper deal or they were cut.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 2:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Probably true, but I don’t really agree with that policy.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
You're gonna have your hands full
redoing the “firmly entrenched” stuff pretty soon, Charlie.
Heh.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
He may be an upgrade over Jones overall, but if he is, it’s very marginal. I have no particular fondness for Jones, but at least if he goes nuts on the league again (very, very unlikely, sure) the Pirates can keep him for a few years. There’s at least some semblance of upside there.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
I don't like the signing
But it’ll be nice to have one above average infielder.
Overbay is decent with the glove, from the games I remember.
This is why I don't get the hair-pulling
The defensive upgrade from Jones to Overbay at 1B is on the order of a win. Why is gaining a win in the field (and upgrading the effectiveness of 2B, 3B, and SS in the bargain) so terrible?
because Jones
shouldnt be playing 1B in any case. He should be playing RF, which apparently he will now.
But before Overbay
There were very good odds that Jones ends up getting, if not a large number of 1B starts, almost certainly too many. With Doumit and Bowkers on the roster – even setting aside Diaz – Jones would be getting dozens of 1B starts. But with Overbay in place, any remaining starts will almost certainly go to Pearce (or a Sunday start for Jones if Pearce is in AAA and they don’t trust Bowkers).
Point being, Overbay guarantees that no one will be tempted to get Jones extra PAs by starting him at 1B – he’ll get his PAs as an RF, where he’s perfectly respectable defensively. That alone has value. In an ideal world, they wouldn’t play Jones there regardless, but they view him as a more credible 1B than like 3 other RFs, so that’s the way he would have gone.
the whole infield improves
It may be only a slight improvement, but Overbay will likely help to reduce the amount of errors in the infield. True, his offense will likely not match up with GFJ’s, but GFJ was terrible against lefty’s. Diaz and GFJ will form a fairly solid RF option. Overbay was signed for his ability to improve the infield as a whole. I’m sure not even the Pirates see him as a potential stud in their lineup. IMO, we’ll see an excellent season from Jones due to not having to worry about his defense or lefty’s as much. I think he’ll tear righty’s apart.
LF Tabata
2B Walker
CF Cutch
3B Pedro
RF Jones/Diaz
1B Overbay
C Snyder
SS Cedeno
Does that lineup strike fear into the opponents? No, but I think our defense will improve because of it. Hopefully Ronny can find some consistency, Neil will improve his range, and Pedro will show that he is capable of staying at 3B for another year or two. That is a lot to hope for, but I’m a Bucco fan. What else do I have?
The main defensive issue in the infield was a lack of range.
Overbay isn’t going to be able to do much for that.
I don't deny this
That is way I said a slight improvement.
yet alvarez and overbay have one of the better zone ratings in baseball
says so on baseball reference…
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
No, it doesn't.
Look at the page yourself. B-R doesn’t list vanilla ZR, and all of the fielding numbers on Pedro’s page are God-awful.
I’m thinking he’s looking at Pedro’s spots on the range factor leaderboards.
I’m also thinking he has little to no idea what that actually means.
lolol
you are some sensitive guys, i swear.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
of course i have no idea what it means!!!
i dont trust ANY of the metric shit. i’d rather read what scouts and baseball people say about the players, not what math geeks and gamers think about them.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
So projected lineup?
Is walker the cleanup hitter now?
CF Cutch
LF Tabata
RF Jones
2B Walker
3B Alvarez
1B Overbay
C Snyder
SS Cedeno
That look right? Dont really want 3 lefties in a row so I guess Neil will have to hit 4th?
Or Jones and Diaz..
..or Overbay and Jones..
Tough to say right now who will get 2/3 spots..
With adding another LH bat we should consider....
….batting Cutch 3rd.
Tabata LF®
Walker 2B (S)
Cutch CF®
Alvarez 3B (L)
Jones RF (L)
Snyder C®
Overbay 1B (L)
Cedeno SS®
Just a thought
It would only be 3 lefties in a row against a RHP. If there’s a lefty specialist brought in late in the game, then Diaz will bat.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
no way
no way Pedro hits anywhere but clean-up this year
I have to think that signing Overbay will lead to Doumit’s being traded. Jones/Diaz platoon, who’ll platoon w/Overbay? Nobody.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
He goes by his full name please, Lars F***ing Anderson.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
I dunno -
as I was saying to MBandi – Pearce still has an option left, due to last year’s injury.
Of course, that means he’ll be 38603 years old before he makes the roster full-time…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
doumit
you know, the more i think about this, the less inclined I am to trade Doumit unless we get back one good prospect at the least.
We will carry a backup catcher on the bench, and spend a roster spot on him, so doing that on Doumit isnt a terrible idea- we dont really need to get rid of the money that bad.
So the bench: Josh Rodriguez to back up all infield positions, Diaz (or Jones) for OF, Pearce for 1B, Catcher, who else? Bowker? Feels like there should be one other IF available instead of all the 1B/OF types. SO, if we arent able to get a good return for Doumit, this likely spells the end of one of Jones/Bowker
At this point, trading Doumit won’t make any room for Bowker, because Doumit will be the backup catcher.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah...
I can see the Pirates paying $5.1M for a backup catcher.
Doesn't matter...
whether another catcher was signed to be a backup for $5M. Fact remains, we’ve got one. And if he stays on the roster, it pretty much shows that the powers that be are on the Pirates for low payroll.
jason varitek
made $4M last year as the backup to v-mart
i haven’t heard anyone say that he’s the starter. i would think he’d be half a platoon, so in those terms the deal makes some sense. depends on what they’re paying him, though i suspect that number will be millions and that most people here will not like it whether its 1 or 10.
Overbay
played 154 games last season – I don’t think they’re bringing him in to platoon.
I could be wrong.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
You typically don’t platoon your highest paid players.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
Provided, of course, that the compensation rumors are accurate.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
looks like he's not platooning
so forget i said it. i’m not that excited about his as our starting 1b.
Like most of the Bucs offseason
This gets a big, fat “meh.” Can’t really get a strong reaction (positively or negatively) from this.
I actually think that its been worse than meh
Doing nothing at all would have been better.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
If we combine all of these "low upside" moves..
with an extension of Andrew McCutchen, will this off-season be considered a positive one?
platoons
Overbay/Pearce
Jones/Diaz
Snyder/Doumit
not bad production from those spots now.
where's bowkey gonna go?
diaz/jones in RF, overbay w/ pearce on occasion at 1B… left handed bat off the bench maybe?
overbay / pearce
not bad production?…Overbay cant hit a righty
I think..........
…….that an incumbent now gets packaged with Maholm in the coming weeks…..just a guess….
by Marooned Pirate on Dec 14, 2010 1:59 PM EST reply actions
I think you are overreacting to this one Charlie..
Bowker’s going to be 28 in July, Pearce 28 in April. Sure, both have some upside, but I really don’t see this as a big deal.
To me, there’s something to be said for not having to start a Brandon Moss or not having to stick with Charlie Morton in the rotation long after the time has passed.
I think we should also look at this from a trade-value perspective. If Correia or Overbay returns to 2009 form, then the team is in line to capitalize on a nice haul at the deadline. Sure, most of these guys are underwhelming, no argument from me there.
My main concern is that if Overbay, Diaz, Correia, etc. struggles, that we stick with them for too long. That hasn’t occured yet, so no blame can be placed there.
We were outbid for DLR and missed out on Hardy, but other than those two moves, I don’t have much of an issue with the guys we did acquire for the money we acquired them with (Overbay pending).
Disappointing.
I’m rapidly losing faith in the front office this offseason.
by Vlad on Dec 14, 2010 2:06 PM EST via mobile reply actions
That seems silly
I’ve said below that I think this is an overpay, but IMO they’ve only made one truly bad decision, and it’s a decision that at least 25 other FOs make: keeping Pedro & Neil in place. Beyond that:
Correia is at least a wash, and a decent chance of an upgrade, for Duke.
Olsen’s worth a shot, minimal downside
I wish they’d gotten Hardy, but Rodriguez is a nice SS pickup
Diaz has no upside, but he gives us decent production while preventing us from giving countless starts to the likes of Clement and Moss. Despite what Charlie says, I don’t enjoy the tradeoff of 105 losses to find out for absolutely, positively certain that Marginal Player X won’t turn out to be much, much better than expected.
I guess if I thought Bowkers or Pearce were another Craig Wilson, I could see getting upset about these developments. But I think they’re a lot closer to Brandon Moss or Andy LaRoche, where the upside is that you get a useful season out of them, but you have to play them 350 starts to capture the 140 good ones.
I’m reasonably pro-Pearce (and it sucks that he lost his shot last year), but the idea that him as Opening Day 1B is YAY! while Overbay as Opening Day 1B is SALE THE TEAM strikes me as… unbalanced.
I'm not in SALE THE TEAM mode
I do think that this offseason has lacked any coherent and overarching plan however.
The moves are all ad hoc and don’t add up to anything that could be considered a positive longterm vision.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
you're upset...
because it was Overbay instead of Lars Anderson?
We all feel your pain…
by insane_sanity on Dec 14, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
I actually like Lars Anderson.
I wanted us to use our second-rounder on him back in ‘06, though that’s neither here nor there at this point.
Pearce
I think Pearce starts in AAA because he can, and because he is coming off a pretty substantial knee surgery. Marte starts the year as backup Corner IF. Josh as backup Middle IF, and Diaz and Bowker on the bench (if Jones and Overbay start). Actually a pretty solid bench with some power.
what a pity i cant check the pbc blog anymore
this is one of those instances i’d like to see what the yinzers say
Wow, is part of Overbay’s contract that they have to rip Tallion’s arm off and beat Andrew McCutchen to death with it? Because if not this is an awfully big overreaction.
+1
For Aura Avila.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
I think
doumit, jones, and maholm will all be gone by opening day.
by SHOOTFOR2010 on Dec 14, 2010 2:14 PM EST reply actions
Jen Langosch has an update from talking to NH
that says that Doumit moves to a bench role. How could she not have asked about the contract details yet?
+1 for skirt...
You just don’t see enough Jimmy Cagney language anymore.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Links:
Emphasis mine:
The left-handed hitting Overbay has averaged 17 home runs a season over the last seven years. He was an everyday player during that span and appeared in at least 157 games four times. His best season came in 2006, when Overbay hit .312 with 46 doubles, 22 homers and 92 RBIs.
….
There’s always the possibility that Jones could move into a platoon role with Matt Diaz in right field if Doumit is dealt. The Pirates are known to be gauging trade interest in Doumit, and this acquisition could be a sign that his days in Pittsburgh are nearing an end.
Like I said above, I don’t think they’re bringing him (Overbay) in to platoon.
A 1-year deal paves the way for Pedro’s transition to 1B, perhaps?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
Maybe this .....
will allow me to forget the Jeremy Burnitz signing?
by Pirate in Ole VA on Dec 14, 2010 2:21 PM EST reply actions
Everyday player?
I wont believe this till NH or Hurdle comes out and says it, but so far there hasn’t been a quote directly form the horse’s mouth.
CT42 points out something above and there is “it appears as if the Pirates are going to give the majority of the first base at-bats to Overbay.” from Jen Langosch’s article, but it may well be that you are jumping the gun in anointing him starting 1B?
No, look in the update to Langosch’s article. It says she asked Huntington, who said the Bucs signed Overbay to play every day.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
UPDATE from Langosch:
UPDATE: Spoke to Huntington, who said Jones will indeed platoon with Diaz in right field. Overbay will play every day at first base. Doumit will back up Snyder and get occasional outfield at-bats.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if Hurdle is driving this move. Seems to counter the FO’s direction the last couple of years.
6 and counting
I doubt it
I think NH is really under pressure to keep his job and 10 more wins would go a long ways toward that goal.
As a result, I suspect he’s in DL survivor mode.
I hope I’m wrong. But that’s the first thing I thought when I heard the announcement.
Actually,
Hurdle DID have something to do with it, Beertemple writes.
From the article:
"(Hurdle) was a big part of my decision," Overbay said. "I talked to a lot of people about him. I like that way he goes about it — his honesty, his knowledge of the game, his energy. He made me feel comfortable. I’m an easy-going guy, too, but when it’s time to go after it, I know how to turn the switch. He’s the same way."
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Now if it were Cliff Lee making that statement ...
I’d be more encouraged.
I agree with this...
Hurdle may like the idea of Overbay but if NH didn’t want him the Bucs wouldn’t have signed him. My guess is that Coonely has given NH specific marching orders to improve the W/L record this year.
SOP
Same Old Pirates……….Another coup for “The single best management team in baseball,maybe in all professional sports”! What a laugh………..
We’re getting our tics to see the Red Sox when they come in next season,so that we can enjoy a REAL MLB team,one who,regardless of the market,ALWAYS keeps faith with it’s fans!
Why are you on BD?
If I want to hear bitching, I’ll leave the toilet seat up for my GF
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
If I thought
A Joe Randa was blocking a Freddy Sanchez I think I’d be more peeved. As it stands, I expected guys like Bowker, Pearce, Jones, Lastings to end up as platoon guys anyway. So they are just hitting the other side of the platoon option.
Ha
Well if Overbay is playing ever day then I just feel bad for Pearce.
contrary to what you may think, pearce hasnt proven anything
and since overbay is on a one year contract, it looks like pedro is going to be the future 1Bman
Has he really earned time based on MLB numbers?
And how healthy has he been?
he s certainly earned it on MiLb numbers
and his recent stint was pretty good. It does feel a little bit like he may be injury prone, although his health history is not too bad- that’s a good point
In his limited MLB time Pearce has proven that he can rake vs LHP. I still think he will get his chance as Overbay’s platoon partner when the season rolls around.
Earlier in his career, Overbay was pretty good against LHPs, but the last few years, he has been pretty bad. I’ll guess Pearce will get ABs if that trend continues.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
7?
by this amount, laroche would have been in a half dozen allstar games, won some gold gloves, hit a bazillion homers and nailed minka kelly. NUH UHHHHHHH
hahaha
I just got an image of LaRoche in his camo gear escorting Minka Kelly down the red carpet somewhere. Thank you for brightening my morning, Angus.
LaRoche
Last year, their offensive numbers were nearly identical (PAs within 2%, run totals the same, wOBA 7 points apart), but LaRoche did it on a .330 BABIP while Lyle did it on a .285. And they’re both plus, but not amazing, glove men. LaRoche’s only real edge is being a couple years younger. Meh.
The last decade is irrelevant. Compare Bonds to Overbay over the last decade, who’s better? Do you want to sign Bonds?
by Wizard of Woz on Dec 14, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Hardly
Over the past decade, you see a clearly better player (LaRoche).
The Bonds analogy is silly. He hasn’t played foryears.
Both of them are playing, and LaRoche consistently puts up better batting statistics.
Silly is referencing the last decade's worth of performance
when arguing who would be a better signing now.
by Wizard of Woz on Dec 14, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, you are right
I want the older declining player. The guy who’s had an OPS over .800 once in four years.
Over the last decade (which is actually just their entire careers) LaRoche has an OPS+ of 114. Overbay is at 111. That difference isn’t significant. Overbay is regarded as a better defender. I don’t see the argument for LaRoche being clearly better.
I suspect ...
LaRoche was much more pursued and will sign for more money.
Overbay is an older declining player.
LaRoche may not be an elite talent. But he’s a good bet to outperform Overbay next year.
I also agree with this statement, not the other though.
by Wizard of Woz on Dec 15, 2010 8:41 AM EST up reply actions
Ugh....
Adam
Black Shoe Diaries, SB Nation Pittsburgh, Daily Collegian Sports, @fugimaster24
God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...
Pirates website headline
Bucs get bopper for first, ink free agent Overbay
Calling Overbay a bopper? Really?
I guess “Lefty McThump” was already used once.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe they were talking about two separate transactions. You can’t rule that out based strictly on the headline.
I think the headline actually implies two seperate transactions
Maybe NH bought a statue of the Big Bopper to complete his Buddy Holly collection
by Wizard of Woz on Dec 14, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Big Bopper Bobblehead, Baby!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Chantilly Lace, and a purty face
pony tail, hanging down…
by Wizard of Woz on Dec 14, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Why not look at it this way?
Start Pearce in AAA and see if he dominates it, again.. If he does, we’ll probably be able to find a spot to bring him up..
If Overbay sucks, he gets replaced and Pearce gets another shot.
If Overbay doesn’t suck, then we have no problem. Overbay gets traded to a contender and Pearce gets his chance.
What am I missing (honestly)?
I'm sure Hague can stay at AA
for a month or so.. That’s enough time to see if Pearce is fully back at AAA, if he is, we make room for him in the bigs.
He didn't exactly light the league on fire...
so yeah.. I don’t think a couple months in A again would ruin Anderson.
tough noogies for pearce.
i feel sorry for a guy who gets to play ball for a living, and making a decent living to boot.
It does
Add depth, you just hope they move away from the vet if he’s not working out sooner rather than later this time around. I’m not going ballistic over it because I think the “other options” internally are overrated, but I can see how it flies in the face of the last couple years so it’s tough to swallow.
Or perhaps people were expecting some sort of mega-trade at this point. I think Charlie just doesn’t like the players that were brought in. I personally like the Correia pickup and the Olsen pickup is one where it’s 1 million and they need any SP depth after last year’s mess. I also like what Diaz brings, but I get that Charlie probably thinks just play Lastings and then save that 2.5 million for something else — I just don’t think Lastings would deliver as much as Diaz in that platoon role.
Upgrade in the field,
but not a lot at the plate. Lots of GIDP coming.
My heros have always been Steelers...
You must be referring to his 2008 number: 24
Because he hit into 17, total, the past two seasons. (G. Jones hit into 18 last year, alone)
If you can go back to 2008 for the 24 GIDP…can I go back to 2008 for the 46 2Bs and the 22 HR?!?!?!?
by insane_sanity on Dec 14, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Overbay everyday???
Didn’t they just tell us Diaz had a shot to play everyday too? I’m sure those are the right things for the GM to say because it’s my guess the promise to compete for an everyday job helped lead to the deals with both Overbay and Diaz…both of which are viewed by everyone as platoon players.
If the Royals did this exact signing
We’d all be laughing at them.
elvishasleft.com
bestweekever.tv
by Dan H on Dec 14, 2010 2:42 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
My only consolation is that KC has been doing this for years now and it is starting to work for their minor league system all while keeping the union off of their case.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
actually, signing guys like meche and guillen for bazillions keeps the union at bay
and i apologize about using the word bay, i know how that stings around here
Except for me because I’ve consistently argued they run things better than us.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 5:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hm. I agree with this one. Doumit to the bench and Diaz to the platoon is just the way the doctor drew it up.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 2:42 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Telling you...
I’d send Doumit + $2m for ANYTHING….boxes of balls, bats, something.
It would save us $3.1m this year + his 500k buyout
by insane_sanity on Dec 14, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
insane insanity
I can easily see Doumit’s best offer in 2012 being from a Japanese team. The Hanshin Tigers play in the Central League which doesn’t have the DH and they couldn’t use him at first. He would probably be interesting to a Pacific League team-at a much-reduced salary-where he could mainly be a DH.
but why?
what makes you think we need those 3M? The payroll is low enough as is. I’d argue Doumit gives us way more value than any backup C, which we would almost certainly have, if he were traded for a bag of balls
I’m with you. Snyder and Doumit should share the role. So what if they are costly? That money is spent one way or another.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
That’s really our hope for a decent season as far as I can tell. I’ve got to believe that if Overbay is not hitting well against LHPs that Pearce will get playing time.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
Please argue that Doumit gives us WAY more value as a LH bat off the bench…than as a catcher of any sort.
And what if it were those specially marked balls they use for “special” homeruns and such…
by insane_sanity on Dec 14, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Brakeman: JR is gone, Hurdle will instill new rules.
Unless that was a NH rule…
by insane_sanity on Dec 14, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
sorry brake
looks like you beat me to it by a minute
yeah but traditionally if he's the backup C
then he’s the last guy off the bench. russell and tracy both played it this way.
Hopefully
They will have Walker taking some reps in the case he is needed. It really doesn’t make sense to waste Doumit’s bat on the bench if you fell you can’t take the chance of using him.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
have to note
that chances are very high that Doumit wont be here…
just hope its a real trade and not a dump. Doumit brings more value than JJ or any other backup catcher will
I’ll believe a Doumit trade when I see it.
I personally feel it would be a mistake because Doumit does bring more value than a normal backup catcher would, the Pirates will have to pick up half or more of his salary anyway, and we’re not going to get any decent prospect in return.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
The hints out there now
are that Doumit is going to be released. Gotta make room on the 40 man.
Good day.
He kind of is ...
no one will pick up the next two options.
He has 1 option that covers the next 2 years – either pay $500k buyout, or pay him for 2012 and 2013.
So we have him for 1 year.
by insane_sanity on Dec 14, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
Room on the 40 man?
For who? We need a backup catcher, and Doumit is better than Jaramillo or anybody else we have.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
I am
Relieved to hear GJones is platooning this year, either way.
Oh Fiddlesticks
This is just the type of acquisition that makes me want to throw up and rip my hair out. How many mediocre to below avg. 1B can one team possibly need? Lets see: Garrett Jones, Steve Pearce, John Bowker, Jeff Clement, Lyle Overbay…anyone I am missing? I completely lost all respect for the FO at this time. Looking on the bright side…the yinzers LOVE IT!!!!! Seriously, why pay Overbay anything when you have about 4 other clones of him already on the roster. I do not even give a crap about his extra added value on d-fense. Essentially we are paying for the equivalent of Adam Everett at 1B here people. Any $$$’s over the league limit is an OVER-PAY.
DUCK AND COVER
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its too bad that NHL is taken because the National Football League has become the National Hypocrite League" Mark Schlereth
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 14, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Overbay is solid defensively,
better than anyone else we have. I guess they’re looking at our infield arms and trying to limit the damage. If he can hit around .250 and have more than 15 dingers, I’m cool widdit.
My heros have always been Steelers...
I'll give you +1 for 'fiddlesticks'
lately I’ve used that word in place of certain other words around my 3 year old son
+ fifty-fvcking-five.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
I just spell curse words for my 4 and half year old,
But I think she’s starting to catch on. Might be time to feed her some alcohol to slow down her comprehension skills.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Dec 15, 2010 1:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I lol'd.
And then I rec’d.
Funny.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2010 4:06 AM EST up reply actions
That's a lot of money
For one year of Lyle Overbay
OK, now I agree with Charlie
That’s a lot more money than I was envisioning. If it’s $5M guaranteed, then the guy is unbenchable and untradeable unless he goes nuts (well, reverts to ’09 form anyway).
My take had been that platooning Jones & Diaz in RF is a plus, that keeping Jones away from 1B is a plus, that improved D is a plus, and that, if Pearce proves himself, then either they find him PAs at 1B or they trade Overbay. But now, as I say, I think it’s very unlikely that Overbay makes room for Pearce unless he completely tanks while Pearce goes nuts.
Overbay should still be tradeable
they can eat the salary if they need to for prospects. The money isnt the biggest issue here, we have enough space.
True, I guess
I just think it’s less likely to happen – once we’re eating salary, it’s less of a baseball move and more of a player dump. Which is better than having him waste roster space, but it’s also a tougher call for the GM.
If Overbay is owed $1.25M for the last 2 months of the season, and he’s been hitting at all, then we can move him easily, and have our choice of low-end prospects. Bump that up to $2M, and now you’re in PTBNL territory.
i guess i m hoping
that some contender loses/needs a 1B bad (after accounting for Prince Fielder), and Overbay is at least a known quantity, in that his floor is fairly established with some upside in a pennant race.
2M, which is what will be owed to him after about 4months is something the Bucs should gladly pay if it helps get a better prospect plus a roster spot
Oh, well THERE'S a silver lining.
“If the guy sucks, we can probably get someone to take him off our hands, as long as we pay his entire contract and don’t ask for much in return.”
Criminy.
yep..that's the upside to the signing
the downside is watching him swing like a old man hitting .240’s for a whole year.
Why is $5M too much money?
The going rate per WAR this off season seems to be about $5M. Overbay has been worth over that the previous 3 years.
Weird thing about his platoon splits:
RC+ Against LHPs:
2008 – 47
2009 – 44
2010 – 93
RC+ against RHPs:
2008 – 131
2009 – 140
2010 – 111
Earlier in his career he also was pretty good against LHPs. So, he could either be OK against LHPs, in which case probably people won’t complain about him, or he might tank against LHPs, in which case Pearce will probably get playing time.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Because we shouldn't pay market rate
That’s #1, but the main thing is that it reduces our flexibility. Doumit’s $5M is viewed as problematic, but I think he’s more valuable than Overbay. Maybe I’m wrong about that.
I do hope you’re right about the platoon potential.
doumit's salary is problematic because he has no position to play
unless he DH’s for us against the AL
Flexibility for what exactly? And how is it that the Pirates can sign people who are not in team controlled years for under market rates?
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Mark
Two comments:
1. The Pirates can’t play the going rate for WAR.
2. Overbay is not a .800 OPS guy. He’ll be lucky to be a .750 OPS guy. Where does he get us?
His glove is the big attraction here (and what drives the WAR).
The Pirates can’t pay the going rate for excellent players. But if you need a mediocre stop gap player, then they can pay that. In fact, they pretty much have to.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
For those that don't understand RC+
maybe this will be a little more understandable. Overbay vs LHP
2008 .215/.285/.255 in 166 PA
2009 .190/.256/.278 in 86 PA
2010 .222/.295/.405 in 139 PA.
I didn’t think we could find a 1B as bad as Jones vs. LHP. I was wrong.
I don't know who can't understand RC+
44 is really bad, and 140 is quite good.
Anyway, like I said, it’s likely that Overbay will not do well against LHPs, and then Pearce will get those ABs.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
This offeseason has been horrible...
you are correct Charlie. I didn’t like this move when I thought it was a platoon situation and now that I hear Overbay is an every day player I hate it. I like the Correia signing but that’s about it. This off season has been an epic fail IMO.
This is worse.
While signings from past seasons may not have worked out, at least they were attempting to address actual problems with the team. I.e. Crosby was terrible, but at least we did legitimately need a UT IF who could play SS at the time we signed him.
Whereas this signing adds expensive, mediocre depth to a position where we already had mediocre depth, while leaving other crying needs on the roster un-filled.
In addition ...
the Crosby and Church signings were pennies.
This is a $5 million investment.
Seriously, I’d have moved Pedro to first and signed Kouz first.
it depends
maybe they threw this money at SPs and they wouldnt come, maybe Webb wouldnt take a 1 year, 7MM deal to come here.
maybe Orlando Hudson wouldnt take that deal either (I doubt it), but its possible.
The rest- meh…
I agree that its not a particularly smart signing, but maybe they tried to upgrade elsewhere and failed and needed to spend money somewhere!
Exactly.
Just wanted to chime in with others seeing the same way I do. I just don’t see the plan and I seriously doubt there is one at this point given the moves to date.
You don’t make personnel moves to apise the fan base, but I would love to know if there is any segment of the public that is excited about this move. There are those that think it sucks and there are those who think it doesn’t necessarily suck. Anybody who wants to see the Pirates succeed actually think this has been a good offseason?
Good day.
I still think Charlie's 100% wrong on Correia
He ignored xFIP in his original analysis, and basically focused on ERA (??) and Correia’s failure to kick ass at Petco. If you look at xFIP – which we’re all supposed to be doing – then he’s an odds-on upgrade over Duke whose pitching style is better suited to our club. But Charlie’s mind seems to be made up on him (at least until May or June, I suppose), and so it’s casting a pall over an otherwise unremarkable offseason (well, it now features one remarkable overpay, apparently).
No I didn’t ignore xFIP. I addressed the HR/FB discrepancy, which xFIP controls for and is the reason you use xFIP instead of FIP, so essentially I addressed it without mentioning it directly. I focused on ERA+ because Correia pitched in the best pitcher’s park in baseball, so that’s going to tell you a lot more about him than xFIP, which generally doesn’t control for the ballpark. That seems obvious to me, and I don’t know why you continue to mention this as if I’ve made some glaring omission. Yes, Correia’s ERA was higher than it might have been due to the HR/FB thing – but it was also way lower than it might have been if he’d pitched in a neutral ballpark.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
(To be precise, I focused on ERA and its relationship to park effects, then mentioned ERA+ at the end.)
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
xFIP is about more than HR/FB
Since it’s modifying FIP, which takes into account walks and Ks. And Correia had pretty good walk and K rates that nonetheless didn’t translate into ERA. ERA+ may include park factors, but it doesn’t look at, frex, BABIP – it corrects for 1 thing while ignoring DIPS entirely. Point being, even if you don’t correct for HR/FB. his ’10 FIP is 0.70 runs better than his raw ERA. So unless you want to throw out DIPS entirely, his ’10 ERA is meaningless as a predictor of success in ’11.
I didn’t argue that his ERA, in an of itself, was a predictor of success, and you know that. In fact, I specifically named some factors that affected his ERA this year that suggested he would have produced better in 2011 if he were still in PETCO with the Padres defense behind him. I certainly could have mentioned some BABIP stuff, and probably would have if the post was longer than two paragraphs, but that wouldn’t have changed my overall conclusion that this isn’t a good pitcher. Correia’s xFIP of 4.19 in PETCO Park still strongly suggests he’s really pretty bad.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
I don't have time...
read read all of the above posts, but I have read a sampling. The reasons I hate this signing is not because Overbay hurts the team in any obvious way, but it suggests that the major move that was hoped for and needed and seemed appropriate is now not going to happen.
I have been a big vocal supporter of the direction of the franchise under this management group, but I am having growing concerns about the baseball acumen of the decision makers. I do not see how either the big league team or the franchise has markedly improved itself so far this offseason.
While there is still time left, it seems to me that the critical areas of flexibility (1B, 2B, 3B and RF) that allowed for a major move have now been forfeited. Thanks to signing mediocrity at 2 of those positions, we no longer have room to add for the significant, intelligent, and most logical upgrade to the big league club. I don’t see any way to markedly upgrade SS either at this stage, so unless there is a big FA SP signing (which there is no reason to anticipate) or a trade involving one of the “young guns” (which also seems highly unlikely for obvious reasons) I would give management a D grade for their work this off season.
FYI, I’m not going to be impressed with a “big” free agent signing if it is for a relief pitcher.
How long until the 2011 MLB draft?
Good day
i think the team has made some improvements this offseason...
while not trading ANY of their top prospects… not one. Overbay, Diaz, Correia arent really blocking any of the kids yet. the only disappointment was that the team didnt get Hardy, but i dont dislike Cedeno as much as most here on BD.
I think this is about right
They have done almost nothing to harm their long term future, and they’re probably somewhat better with Diaz and Overbay in ‘11. 75 wins is more fun than 57, IMO. They haven’t mortgaged even a tiny piece of their future.
75 wins instead of 57
That does mortgage your future in a way if it means drafting first versus drafting tenth. The talent gap is exponential at those two positions.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
I have said before
that a big part of me wouldn’t mind another 105 loss season if it gets us another #1 overall.
But I think that the reality is that this team will improve 10 or more games regardless – full seasons from NFW, Tabata, Pedro (they won’t all progress, but as a group they should be as good or better than last year, but for 162 games, not 90-100), no starts at all for Clement, Aki, Church, or Crosby, probably a lot more success from the rotation, etc. So if we’re not going to get a top 5 overall pick (and 95 losses doesn’t get us there, most likely), we may as well have a decently pleasant season watching the team play baseball.
-1
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
Nah.
That one was just wrong, angus.
IMO.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
one twelfth?
i was not aware you could be anything that didnt have a power of 2 in the denominator. hmmm
I think it ain't.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
youre welcome for the set up, cocktails
im insulting blacks and injuns on the next thread, enjoy the veal.
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You are missing the point
Yes, they haven’t pulled a Littlefield and signed declining major leaguers of marginal to no value to block a prospect. However, they have signed declining or fungible pieces when it would have been appropriate to acquire a really good player. This in an off season in which management has talked about adding weapons.
And is it not a negative to fail to surround the young core with players that can help maximize the potential and value of the young core players. In other words, the clock on Pedro and Cutch and, to a lesser extent, Tabata & Walker, is ticking. I can see guys like Hardy or Beltre or Dunn potentially helping. Not so much for Diaz & Overbay.
Good day.
Yes on missed opportunities
I really don’t understand how Baltimore got Hardy so cheap and we didn’t. But we talked a lot about 1B options out there, and never once, in any discussion, did I get excited about what was available. Dunn wouldn’t be bad – better than Overbay for $5M – but it was mostly mediocre choices.
But I never saw them adding a piece this year that would make a big difference in ’12 and ’13, which is when it matters. A DLR signing, frex, would be paying a lot of money for worthless wins in ’11 and for wins in ’12 that are likely as not meaningless.
+1 for the first use of 'fungible' in the comments of this post
I’m not sure any really good players would have wanted to sign with the Pirates, though
So overpay...
a good, productive player at a need position. I understand that it would likely take overpaying to get someone good to come here. And I understand that we need to be careful not to hamstring ourselves with a bad signing. But overpaying a player that turns out to be productive and helps the team improve and thus “break the seal” for signing good players isn’t going to piss anyone off so long as better players are not being blocked. In other words, it would’ve been okay to overpay for a SS, RF or SP for sure, and perhaps a 1B or 3B as well.
As an aside, Charlie: what is the record for most posts in a thread? This one has to be getting close.
Good day.
Yeah, well, once again…yada yada yada.
Who do you want to overpay if you answer the question of what are the Pirates need positions…first base, right field and shortstop because you want to see if Walker and Alvarez can be near enough to league average defensively for it to make sense to keep them at those positions?
by MarkInDallas on Dec 17, 2010 2:27 AM EST up reply actions
Mark
Some of us come from the perspective: There is no way Pedro or Walker will ever be near league average.
It’s not going to happen.
So move them to positions that they can be league average or above and then focus on 2b, RF.
I guess we just start from a different premise.
Some of us come from the perspective: There is no way Pedro or Walker will ever be near league average.
thats an opinion, not a fact
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
That's why it's called
perspective, amigo…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 18, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Hence the use of the word perspective ...
as noted by cocktails.
Funny....the Pirates won the NL East in 1990 & 1991
with Bobby Bonilla in the field. I don’t think that everyone needs to be “league average” defensively!! (And Manny Ramirez certainly wouldn’t be playing if that was necessary).
Plus....
I don’t know why it’s a forgone conclusion that Walker & Alvarez can’t be league average guys at 2B & 3B. Freddy Sanchez was certainly no amazing guy at 2B when he was moved there, but he got much better as time wore on and became an adequate second baseman.
All we are saying...
is give Neil a chaaaaaance!
All we are sayyyyying…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 19, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
WAR is over
if you want it!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 19, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
white angus
“Overbay, Diaz, Correia arent really blocking any of the kids yet.”
You got that right.
Steve Pearce will be 28 at the beginning of the season, can’t really play any position other than 1B, and is coming off an injury-plagued year in which he played about 50 total games.
We don’t need him around anymore. If the rest of his MLB career sees him appear in many more than the 15 MLB games he got into last season, I would be very surprised.
now i kinda feel bad dissing pearce
i think he could be a decent backup if he could play more than just 1B
year 4 panic
yup, I think littlefield sign burnitz in the 4th year of his rebuilding plan. Wow the more things change the more they stay the same. overbay 5 million come on. who were you bidding against retirement.
by melikie yung tang on Dec 14, 2010 3:30 PM EST reply actions
i disagree with you both, and you know why?
cuz youre wrong. the goal for this franchise was to build from within, and the moves that were made this offseason may have been “meh”, it doesnt interfere with the plan.
Signing marginal players in their mid-30s is part of the plan? When we fail to sign some draft pick next summer, I´ll remember the money we´re blowing on Overbay. Oh, I know, it´s a separate budget and the two must never overlap.
signing overbay does NOT interfere with the plan, doesnt block anyone and doesnt break up the core.
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
He blocks Pearce, for one and he also blocks the opportunity for finding a better option in a trade. I’d rather experiment with Allen Craig, Mark Hamilton, Kila Ka’aihue etc. (just names off the top of my head) than waste 650 plate appearances on someone who will definitely not be part of the next Pirate playoff team.
hes not blocking pearce because pearce is not even a prospect
i like ka’aihue, but hes not a free agent, not a good defender, and pretty much a left handed pearce. he does get on base, however.
by white angus on Dec 15, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
It also doesn't significantly improve the team.
We might as well have taken all that money and dumped it in the river.
Exactly right. The FA signings are just window dressing that may help sell what the FO is doing if it leads to a few more wins. But to this point we haven’t given up prospects, blocked prospects, or committed to long-term contracts so in no way does this get in the way of the plan.
If wasting substantial sums of money on non-improvements is part of the plan...
…then we need a new plan.
I do not like this
my initial gut reaction says that this is a bad idea… maybe it’s because they were both once brewers but it reminds me of jeromy burnitz… as my buddy said: “meet the new pirates, same as the old pirates”… and y’know, he is just another over-the-hill guy whose average-ish career peak is now in the past… so yeah, it’s burnitz-ish…
having ruminated on it a bit, I’m still not too happy with the move… in isolation, it’s fine and kinda meh, I suppose… but I think I really like it less in the context of the rest of the offseason thus far, with a few of the other kinda meh moves… and this one being a standout because it fills a need that may not have been there… between jones, pearce, bowker, diaz and (sigh) ryan doumit, it seems like first and right should have been adequately covered… ah well… hopefully, the rest of the offseason will bring a better big picture into focus…
by Captain Easychord on Dec 14, 2010 3:39 PM EST reply actions
Just for reference:
2011 ZiPS projections:
Overbay (34): .244/.336/.423, 102 OPS+ [with Toronto]
Jones (30): .262/.316/.444, 101 OPS+
Pearce (28): .254/.326/.434, 102 OPS+
Bowker (27): .264/.329/.430, 102 OPS+
Doumit (30): .264/.329/.429, 102 OPS+
Personally, I think it’s awesome that we’re spending $5M to get something we already had (in multiples!), only older and more fragile. Particularly given that we’re probably going to end up eating part of Doumit’s contract to get rid of him now, too.
Actually its worse
Since if we had gone Pearce/Bowker it would have gotten the platoon splits boost.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
amazing to me that Vlad is harping about Overbay's bat
when he demanded the Pirates do something, ANYthing about the defense. Overbay has the glove, and doesnt cost a fortune either.
Glove is great
But not so much at first base, especially since we weren’t going to have Jones + Crosby there this year.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
But you have to get someone who’s a positive WAR but will play for no money. Therefore the Pirates are dumb
You ignore
That Pearce projected to have a better dWAR than Overbay last season and that Bowker isn’t far off.
Jones, Clement and Crosby weren’t playing first this year.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Oh great, now there’s a dWAR. Is gWAR next? Wear a slicker
And if Pearce could actually stay healthy/produce instead of being a human ZIPS projection we wouldn’t need to sign guys like Overbay.
Dude -
“e” comes after “d.” So, it’s eWAR.
;-)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Winnar!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
I wanted a significant improvement to the defense.
Charitably, Overbay is maybe what, five runs better than Pearce at 1B? The rest of the shitty defenders on the club will drown that out like a piccolo in a trombone factory.
+1 for making me think of Pirate fielding and sad trombones at the same time.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Overbay will help
But you have three guys who range from below average to terrible in the rest of the infield.
And a pitching staff that puts lots of balls into play.
Not a good combination.
The only way to get the significant immediate upgrade to the infield defense would be to move Pedro and Walker. However, I can see why they wouldn’t want to do that this year. It’s not a certainty that Pedro and Walker are going to be long term serious liabilities playing 3B and 2B. Let’s give them a full year to show what they can do in MLB.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, as someone who has studied orchestration, I’m pretty sure a piccolo would be quite audible in a factory, or with the accompaniment of a trombone ensemble.
(I agree with the broader point, but a piccolo is a piercing, piercing thing.)
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
nerd
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
I was going to mention this, Charlie, but then I thought it might be too much of a music nerd thing to point out. Glad you took the chance. :-)
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
What's Bowker's D?
My impression is Jones-esque, but I could be wrong about that. Overbay is ~10 runs better than Jones, possibly more. He’s specifically strong at the 3-6-3.
I’d like to see one of those turned someday.*
- Not suggesting Lyle’s our only chance at that. Just feeling wistful for Keith Hernandez.
from watching
I’d say Bowker looks much more in control in the field than Jones, and thats at both Rf and 1B.
Including throws to 2B. I didnt check numbers though…
not sure how/where this was settled
there’s no doubt Bowker looks better at 1B.
I am yet to see strong arguments favoring Jones in Rf. He looks less awkward there than 1B, but Bowker looks perfectly fine too
It would be funny
If that actually happened. The reality is that they’ll range from 90 to 115; we just don’t know which will be which.
Meh.
Overbay’s not a waste of a roster spot. He’s a decent Major Leaguer. He’ll provide more offense and better defense than Jones or Pearce would have. I won’t say he isn’t a mediocrity, but he’s better than what we had before. 5M is about 2M too much, in my opinion, but on a one-year deal that isn’t an albatross.
I’m not “excited” by it, but I don’t think it’ll really hurt in the long run.
He’ll provide more offense and better defense than Jones or Pearce would have.
50/50 chance of this, at best.
You’re correct that first base is the least important defensive spot on the diamond. That doesn’t mean that a one-year deal to improve it is the worst thing in the world.
I don’t think Overbay’s good, but I think he’ll have some advantages. Overpaid.
by Suffering Buc on Dec 14, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
If we were getting Keith Hernandez, that'd be one thing.
But Overbay isn’t that much better with the glove at 1B than Pearce is. We just paid $5M for this “upgrade”, we should’ve tried to get some actual run value from it.
we keep putting Pearce on a damn pedestal on this site yet the guy is still a nobody
sure hes been hurt, but ya’ll act like hes been screwed over for a position or something.
ya’ll act like hes been screwed over for a position or something
We act that way because he has. When most teams have a guy who puts up a .900+ OPS in AAA over the last two years, they clear a space for that guy on the ML roster, even if it’s just a bench role. The Pirates? They request a fourth option year on the guy so they can trap him in the minors until he’s 30.
It's still to be seen that Pearce won't be on the MLB club this year.
I’d be pretty shocked if he spent significant time in AAA. I think the fourth option year was just to cover them in case he needed to be sent down this year for whatever reason.
I was one of Pearce’s biggest supporters last year. But after such a long layoff, who knows if he is going to need some extra time to get his approach back? He really only had 2 months of good plate discipline last year before he got injured.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Please explain.
I’m curious about your logic, given that my post is true and makes sense, while Smizik’s typically aren’t and don’t.
this is my logic:
“so they can trap him in the minors until he’s 30”… thats utterly ridiculous, and wrong, and sounds like frustration on your part. and its exactly what a Smizikminion would belt out when something doesnt go their way.
Ease up a tinch, amigo – he didn’t call you anything remotely like “Smizikian.”
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
It may not be their specific intent in making the move...
…but it’s going to be the result. Signing Overbay reduces the number of bench spots on the 2011 25-man roster, and essentially puts Pearce and Bowker into competition for one spot. Pearce has an option left, and Bowker doesn’t. As such, barring some kind of catastrophic injury or collapse by Bowker during spring training, Pearce is fucked.
then pearce better get on the ball
learn more positions, learn to hit a right handed curveball… do something about it.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
its not
it would bother me significantly if Pearce spent more than a little time in AAA to make sure he was back from the injury. He deserves to be on the ML roster or cut loose, so he can look elsewhere.
I'll say it more diplomatically.
He’ll provide a much better glove than Jones and a much better bat than Pearce.
by Suffering Buc on Dec 14, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
not really
dingerz arent everything… he’s OPSed around 900 in his last 100 games in AAA.
7:6 K:BB
plus solid defense by all accounts
plus a 929 OPS in the big leagues in about 130 PA against LHP
Given what we have been playing at first
Pearce more than has earned his chance.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Waitaminnit -
“dingerz aren’t everything?”
[shudder]
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
“He is a good athlete with above-average speed and is a tough out with a solid career on-base percentage,” Pirates general manager Neal Huntington said.
“Lyle Overbay is solid major league player and we expect him to have a positive impact on our club offensively, defensively and in the clubhouse,” said Huntington.
by Designated Hitter on Dec 14, 2010 3:46 PM EST reply actions
Maybe that's the plan
Get the fans out because the Pirates have the best looking wives.
Bring back Kris Benson.
It's too bad she's a lunatic ...
because she’s one hot wife.
She reminds me of the fem fatale on ...
Law and Order: Criminal Intent.
You know she’s crazy, but …
Oh, sh'es a whack job, all right.
From her Wikipedia page:
…The New York Times, having previously noted Anna Benson’s “calculated outrageousness,”9 wrote that in “her one year in New York, Anna Benson drove the Mets to distraction.”10 Sports reporter Murray Chase, described by baseball’s Hall of Fame as “a pioneer in the coverage of business and labor issues within baseball,”11 wrote of the Mets-Orioles trade, “Kris Benson doesn’t have a good enough arm for the Mets to overlook his wife’s mouth. … And by trading Anna Benson, the Mets may have achieved what [former Yankees manager] Casey Stengel called addition by subtraction.”12 Kris Benson himself later said that he felt New York traded him to Baltimore because of his wife …
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
big deal, anna benson is nice to look at
its not like any of us have a shot with her anyway.
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
shes a vegetarian, BK
bwahahahahaaaaaaaa… wait a minute, im whiteANGUS… erase that…
by white angus on Dec 15, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
Sure.
Because it doesn’t make the team significantly better, and it’s money that could have been spent on other players who actually could have made the team significantly better.
Ergo, it’s a poor use of resources, and thus stupid and worthy of criticism.
I’m unsure of who the Pirates could have gotten for $5 million dollars that makes them “significantly” better. Remember, 5 million Pirate dollars is about 8 million other team dollars
Correia is getting a little over $4M per.
If you add Overbay’s $5M to Correia’s $4M, you get $9M. Pirates or not, you’d have to think that we could get a better-than-Correia SP for $9M…
Well…… not really. Maybe a normal franchise could. But no good SP’s coming here for $9 million per year. Didn’t JDLR take less money to stay in CO as an example?
This is the one of the least deserved freak-outs I’ve ever seen. OH NO WE SIGNED OVERBAY, NOW WE’LL NEVER KNOW IF JOHN BOWKER/PEARCE CAN BE AS GOOD AS OVERBAY IS NOW FOR 5 SEASONS OF CONTROL!!!! AAHHH!!!!!!!!
He doesn't have to be a "good" SP to be a better use of the money.
Just better than Correia. Which isn’t a particularly high bar to clear.
So because they didn’t sign a marginally better pitcher than Correia, but signed Correia and Overbay to one year deals (maybe more for Correia, I forget) it’s worth a stupendous “Woman getting slapped in ‘Airplane’” style freakout? Okay fine. I’m not joining in though
Keep in mind also that I’m not saying this is a good great or even okay signing. It’s strictly “eh, whatever”. But the freakout over it you’d think we traded Cain, ZVR, and Sanchez for him
We're spending about 10% of our payroll...
…on a player who doesn’t make us any better than we were before we had him.
If you don’t see that as a problem worth complaining about, so be it, although it seems like it should be a pretty obvious point to anyone with even a trivial knowledge of baseball.
Yes, I’m not freaking out and throwing things because we signed a guy who won’t be on the team next year and blocks nobody of importance. Clearly I’m the dummy.
Yes, I’m not freaking out and throwing things because we signed a guy who won’t be on the team next year and blocks nobody of importance. Clearly I’m the dummy.
You’re right that the move, while stupid, is not in and of itself likely to cost us more than a win or two (compared to a more optimal usage of our resources that were wasted on Overbay).
The real reason to freak out is that the front office apparently thought this was a good idea. As such, it throws their judgment into question for all other moves going forward. When they decide who to pick in the first round next year, or whether to offer McCutchen an extension, or whether to trade Pedro for three fungo bats and a AA arm to be named later… we’re going to know deep down that the guys making the decision are the same ones who were stupid enough to sign Overbay to this deal.
That? That’s disturbing.
It's funny
The last 3 years, absolutely no decision showed even a hint of imperfection in FO operations. 2 years of terrible bullpens, relentlessly bad FA signings and ML trade returns, it was all good. But this is the last (and really, first) straw?
Yes, I realize that this is (ha!) a strawman characterization of your position, but seriously: 6 mos. ago, anyone arguing that NH’s talent evaluation might be flawed was pilloried as a PBC Blog refugee. Now this signing indicates that they’re getting ready to trade Cutch, Tabata, and Morris for Kendall, Francouer, and Betancourt.
The last 3 years, absolutely no decision showed even a hint of imperfection in FO operations.
You don’t remember me complaining about them trading Uviedo for Eveland? Or drafting Sanchez and Pounders on the first day in ’09 (I wanted Shelby Miller with our 1st)? Or giving first a NRI and then a roster spot to Craig Monroe?
You have a short memory.
[Uviedo’s kicking ass in winter ball, incidentally. 2.02 ERA and 1.00 WHIP in 49 innings in the VWL.]
I already said it was a strawman
And actually, I should have thought of the Sanchez pick, the screeching at which amused me since I thought it was a good one (an opinion so far well-justified).
But your other 2? Two minor moves (one insignificant, the other a stupid, but probably <1 WAR, misstep) in 3 years? I think you just proved my point.
I think you just proved my point.
Not really, no. There are moves I liked, moves I didn’t like, and moves I viewed at the time as largely unimportant or inconsequential. If an outside observer isn’t able to understand the nuances of that particular set of judgments, that’s his problem, not mine.
And actually, I should have thought of the Sanchez pick, the screeching at which amused me since I thought it was a good one (an opinion so far well-justified).
Eh, yes and no. The guy I was on record wanting us to take just put up a 3.62 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, and 12.1 K/9 in his first year of full-season ball, and profiles as a front-of-the-rotation starter. I’d still take him over Sanchez in a heartbeat.
the only reason why eveland was even traded for..
is because he had MLB experience and we needed someone, anyone who could step in right away… failed miserably. Uviedo was also let go by the Jays, and not one team claimed him… just sayin.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
"We're spending about 10% of our payroll on a player who doesn't make us any better than before we had him."
Maybe you’re right. But there’s a chance you’ll be wrong too.
We’ll see a year from now whether we should’ve given 140-150 starts at 1B to never-has-beens Pearce and Bowker, instead of Overbay and his $5 million price tag.
We’ll see a year from now whether we should’ve given 140-150 starts at 1B to never-has-beens Pearce and Bowker, instead of Overbay and his $5 million price tag.
No, we won’t, and that’s one of the main reasons that I’m beating this particular horse. Pearce is going to spend 2011 stomping on peasants in AAA and Bowker is going to get maybe a couple hundred AB as a bench player or maybe the short half of a platoon, and we won’t know anything significant about either one at the end of the season that we didn’t already know at the start.
Vlad
My guess is that we’ll see another injury-plagued year from Pearce.
Can we be sure his knees are really healthy? Just because the FO says he should be ready for spring training doesn’t mean much to me.
If you have a platoon of Bowker/Pearce at 1st, are you not limiting yourself for other bench spots? Bowker can play some corner OF too, but Pearce “plays” the OF like Doumit.
And didn’t he mention something last year about playing the OF and it affecting his hitting-or something to this effect? Can you have guys like this on the roster when you carry 12 pitchers?
Perhaps Pearce is a “poor-man’s Rick Short.” Unless MLB teams go to 26-man rosters, I think there will often be guys like him left out in the cold because of the pitcher-heavy rosters. And like Short, Pearce would probably do well to go to Japan at 28 or 29-if he gets the chance-to make some extra yen and play every day.
Is there another team in baseball that would start the season with Steve Pearce getting the ABs against lefties?
Again, I’m not particularly enthused with the Overbay signing. I hope he doesn’t turn out to be another Burnitz. But I also feel that you, Charlie and a few others here over the past 4 years have become too enamored with Pearce’s possibilities, to the point that you might be overlooking his shortcomings at the plate and in the field.
It will be interesting to see how things pan out. Overbay could get hurt early on-see Joe Randa/Freddy Sanchez-and give Pearce/Bowker more of a chance.
This whole issue will be quite a discussion next October on BD.
Can we be sure his knees are really healthy?
Not until we see him in game action, no, though having multiple decent fallback options in Bowker and Jones and Doumit helps mitigate much of that risk.
If you have a platoon of Bowker/Pearce at 1st, are you not limiting yourself for other bench spots? Bowker can play some corner OF too, but Pearce "plays" the OF like Doumit.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends what else you want to carry on your bench, and whether or not you go with a seven-man bullpen. I think it’s certainly possible to come up with a bench with a reasonable balance of performance and tactical flexibility, given the pieces on hand.
Is there another team in baseball that would start the season with Steve Pearce getting the ABs against lefties?
I don’t know whether or not there’s another team that would – though I think it’s easy to say that there are some that should, if they have the opportunity to do so. He’d be a nice fit for Tampa, for example, where both Joyce and Johnson are LHBs.
maybe Pearce is also a peasant
let him prove that hes not. so far, he hasnt. hes a shortish right handed 1B with limited power in a park that saps right handed power.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Not to rehash the old Sano arguments...
And I know the budgets are separate and there was alleged animosity between the Sano’s agent and the Pirates FO, but again, the allocation of resources for the Overbay signing seems extra-confusing when the Pirates miss out on international signings or even draft signings (Tanner Scheppers) for likely six-figure differences.
I realize risks are involved in each of these scenarios, but aren’t those risks worth a fraction of the cost of Lyle Overbay’s absolutely marginal one-year potential upgrade?
elvishasleft.com
bestweekever.tv
The only thing that matters in your spiel there is “different budgets”. And it’s not like the Pirates were unsuccssful overall in signing draft-picks/intl signings in the last 2 years. Just because you bring up the 2 that didn’t work out of 25 or so that did work out is cherry picking to an insane degree. But this thread broke the insane meter long ago
when we signed Burntiz, wasnt he supposed to be the star of the team?
overbay is a complimentary piece, which the team needs to have around the CORE. you cant sign allstars for every position.
and that worked out well, didnt it?
averaged 67 wins, didnt he? whoooooooohooooo!!!!!
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not cherry picking, I’m merely mentioning two prominent examples to back up my two-sentence post. The Pirates also could’ve gone after other more expensive, higher-upside international signings, or signed even more high-upside guys in recent drafts (perhaps of the Matt Den Dekker ilk), or used the combined money of Overbay and Correia/Diaz on an even slightly impactful free agent.
The broader point is that when your organizational philosophy is to build through the draft and international amateur development, and to augment this talent with price-appropriate major league talent, signing an aging veteran who’s barely a marginal improvement over younger players you already have for the not-insignificant cost of $5 mil strikes me as pointless.
By questioning this move, we’re not freaking out, and we’re not breaking the insane meter – we’re merely saying that this signing is essentially pointless, which it is.
elvishasleft.com
bestweekever.tv
or used the combined money of Overbay and Correia/Diaz on an even slightly impactful free agent.
LIKE WHO!!?!?! NOBODY WANTS TO FUCKING COME HERE YOU MORONS!!!!!!!
Sorry, you’re probably not a moron. But for cryin’ out loud I’d like to know who these magical free agents who we missed out on for $9 million are. Okay fine the Japanese guy.
Nishioka, trade / possible extension for JJ Hardy, Javy Vazquez, or a tradable RP for less than Overbay’s money, or just kept the $5 mil and played Jones, Pearce and Bowker.
elvishasleft.com
bestweekever.tv
Of course, $5M is only the posting fee for Nishioka. He’s looking for a $12M 3 year deal on top of that.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 15, 2010 3:42 AM EST up reply actions
Sure
But that’s still a better rate per win than Overbay and you control a 26 year old second baseman/shortstop instead of a 34 year old first baseman with no power.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 15, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
So...
You would be willing to risk that a 26 year old player who has been healthy enough to play 140 games exactly once in his career, and has exactly one really good season in a league which is not MLB level would be worth at least $5.6M each year for 3 years?
Nishioka may turn out to be very good, but I think there’s a better chance that Overbay outperforms his contract than Nishioka does.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 15, 2010 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
healthy enough to play 140 games exactly once in his career
Misleading, at best. NPB doesn’t play a 162-game season like we do. As such, Nishioka’s superficially low GP totals don’t reflect any unusual fragility – just the nature of the Japanese schedule.
Specifically, the NPB schedule is 144 games. So to meet your standards, Nishioka would have to sit out less than one game a month.
I'm sure Patrick Newman of fangraphs did not meanto mislead when he said...
After a career filled with nagging wrist, knee and neck injuries, 2010 was the first season that Nishioka was healthy enough to play a full, 144-game schedule
Once again, Nishioka might do very well. Or he might be Fragile Freddy II.
You are committing $15M over 3 years in hopes that he can make the transition to MLB in both skill and durability, and because he is an NPB player, he likely will insist that he becomes a free agent after those 3 years.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 17, 2010 2:53 AM EST up reply actions
And Pirates or not...
imagine what sort of significant piece we could’ve added if you add in what we are paying Diaz as well. And there would still be money left over to throw at RPs or a platoon type player as well.
Lack of vision. Lack of a competent back up plan, if any at all. Whatever you call it, barring a very significant, unexpected move, this has been very disheartening.
Good day.
imagine what sort of significant piece we could’ve added
You can imagine all you want, but you definitely dont know that they didnt try it already. Just because you’ll throw money doesnt mean they’ll take it
Myth
Cliff took the best offer – better average value each year, and he’d have to retire in 2017 not to out-earn the TX and NYY offers.
he still left 48 million on the table
yeah, the phillies had more per season, but im sorry, 48million usually wins that debate.
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
you’d have to think that we could get a better-than-Correia SP for $9M…
actually, I’m not so sure about that…
by Captain Easychord on Dec 14, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Sooo…if Overbay’s going to be our first baseman then Pedro’s stuck third…does this mean we’re not signing Beltre?
I'm sorry
Did you really think we were signing beltre?
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Hahaha
Not at all, no! I was just kidding around. I thought it was interesting interesting to see how the offseason started with a lot of optimism about seeing some big changes (given the reports about the PIrates taking aim at big time free agents like JDLR and Beltre) but we end up with guys like Overbay, Diaz and Correia who may be slight upgrades, but are more or less non-consequential signings.
I don’t see what all the fuss is about with regards to the Overbay signing though. It’s only a one year deal and it’s not a lot of money. I don’t really see this hurting the Pirates in the long or short term. Pearce will likely get his shot against LHP and while maybe it makes more sense to see what we’ve got in a guy like Bowker, it’s not likely that playing Overbay for a year instead will cost us a championship down the line.
Ya never know…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
On Aki: "He is a good athlete with above-average speed and is a tough out with a solid career on-base percentage," Pirates general manager Neal Huntington said.
On Overbay: "Lyle Overbay is solid major league player and we expect him to have a positive impact on our club offensively, defensively and in the clubhouse," said Huntington.
by Designated Hitter on Dec 14, 2010 3:48 PM EST reply actions
he has it on a cue card for all his infamous signings
our record dictates that his “GENIUS” hat is on backwards
Unfortunately...
NH is beginning to act like Wile E. Coyote.
EVERY
GM says that (or a variation of it) about EVERY singing.
And it’s said about EVERY athlete, in some way, in EVERY sport.
What are they supposed to say, fer chrissakes?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"Please stop me."
“As this signing indicates, I am a danger to myself and others.”
by Vlad on Dec 14, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow.
You are P.O.‘d, ain’tcha?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Still,
that doesn’t take away from the point I was making.
I hope.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
to those upset with the deal
if we’d have signed D. Lee/ L. Berkman/C. Pena to a 1 year $10 mill signing, would you have been happier/think we’d be a better team than with Overbay & Correia? Not being an ass, just curious
by Danatural08 on Dec 14, 2010 3:55 PM EST via mobile reply actions
No, we don’t want anybody
Garrett Jones is the best 1B in the Central, how could we even dream of replacing him with you know, someone that might actually hit better than him
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
We shouldn’t sign anyone ever. That’s the general feeling I’m getting. Anyone costs too much money even if it’s just for a season.
i dont get the entirely freaking out
but its not really the money thats the issue here- its the roster spot, and the chance to evaluate players who could logically be expected to provide similar production, at least.
like we dont know what they would do?
actually i kinda agree, but overbay is a pirate now so “hes my boy”
uhhhhhh
Pearce has his 8 homers in his career. Overbay can do that in his sleep.
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
thats baloney
pearce and bowker both have had opportunities, and i actually would be okay if they both platooned at 1B now. overbay has shown more than both of them put together, and that INCLUDES the minor leagues where Overbay dominated!
that INCLUDES the minor leagues where Overbay dominated!
Aw, how cute. Somebody doesn’t pay attention to park factors.
such a pearce supporter, aintcha?
he’ll be gone just like Duke in no time, and not put up numbers elsewhere
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Just a facts supporter.
Overbay spent the vast majority of his minor league career in Tucson and El Paso, both of which were absolute launching pads back then. Check for yourself if you don’t believe me.
I mean, Chad Moeller was putting up a .900 OPS at Tucson in those days…
Vlad
I’m not sure if you celebrate Christmas.
But I’d chip in on a Lyle Overbay fathead for you if you do.
That would be the perfect present.
i totally believe you, but numbers are numbers.
overbays first few years in the majors are wayyyyyyy more than pearce has put together…. but people who think pearce is being screwed are just blind. he has not ONE skill that stands out as a major leaguer.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
including
4 in 130 PAs against LHP. And i’d say there’s a definite chance he improves the rest of his numbers. He is not necessarily what you see in that sample.
Not at all
We should have used our resources to acquire something better than what we had already. Not to acquire washed up redundancy.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Better, like what? We aren’t the Yankees here. We can’t have anyone we want.
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
Upgrades at positions of need
Would be better than buying parts that our worse than we current have at our disposal.
I’m looking at you shortstop.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Well, we missed JJ Hardy. That’s pretty much all there was that was a decent upgrade, IMHO.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Tsuyoshi Nishioka also would have been a better use of resources…the $5 million that we paid Overbay would have bought his rights.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah because Nishioka would have come all the way to the US to play for the worst franchise in American sports
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
Actually he probably would have
Nishioka wanted out of Japan…we win his posting rights and we would have had a 90% chance of signing him to a very reasonable deal.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
The posting system is different though
If we have the high bid we have exclusive negotiating rights with the player.
Which is actually why I would have preferred to go that route, its one of the few ways that we wouldn’t have to overpay.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
If Nishioka were going to be a shortstop in MLB, then yes.
However, most everyone, Twins included, have pegged him as a 2B in MLB, and we already have a 2B. Once again, if you were going to move Walker and Pedro, then you can bring in a 2B, and yes, that would likely make the Pirates better in 2011.
But long term, it’s probably better for us to find out if Pedro and Walker can stick at 2B and 3B, because that increases their value to us.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Certainly a fair point
I just was answering what I would have done with $5-10 million that was better than Overbay.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
Nishioka would have been a much better move
they say a decent SS and a very good 2B
My offseason wishlist for the middle infield
Was probably Nishioka > Hardy > Hudson
All significantly better moves than Overbay and all moves well within our capabilities to make.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Thing is
We knew from more or less Day One that NH wasn’t going after a 2B. Most of us agree that was a bad decision, but nothing that’s happened since then has changed the basic fact that, without moving NW and PA, nothing really exciting was going to happen with our position players (depending how excited you get about Hardy, I guess). The rest of this offseason has simply flowed from that (completely non-crazy) choice.
We knew from more or less Day One that NH wasn’t going after a 2B.
He doesn’t automatically get a free pass for doing the wrong thing just because we all guessed ahead of time that he was going to do the wrong thing. He’s still wrong.
Improving the defense ...
was the most logical and cost effective choice.
NH chose not to do it.
I guess you could say he’s marginally improved the rotation.
But the offense is still bad.
I like NH. But I don’t like this move a whole lot.
I just don’t think it’s the wrong thing. I think it’s the right thing because Alvarez will be a lot more valuable at 3B if he can stay there, and the same goes for Walker.
I’m sure you could find a platoon partner for Alvarez because he likely will struggle with LHPs in 2011. But that would be stupid, because long term it’s much better for Alvarez to learn how to hit lefties.
I’ll also point to the case of Josh Hamilton, who, if you just look at his body type, would probably not be your first choice to put in center field. And then, after his 2008 season debut where he posted a -20 UZR/150, you might want to just put him on a corner and forget about him ever playing CF.
However, the advantage of having Hamilton’s bat in CF is obvious if he can be anywhere near average as a CF defensively. That is, of course, only if you have other corner outfielders like Nelson Cruz and David Murphy to put in those spots.
If the Rangers had decided after 2008 that Hamilton would play a corner and dismissed his getting better, the Rangers would likely not have gone to the WS in 2010.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not just Pedro’s body type – it’s also the fact that he was a terrible 3B defender last year, in spite of the fact that he’s been playing the position since he was in grade school, and has been receiving whatever instruction we’re able to provide for several years now without showing any improvement. He just doesn’t have what it takes.
Incidentally, BTW, the Rangers are planning to move Hamilton to a corner for 2011. (Link)
Hamilton was actually more than twice as bad in CF in 2008 (-20 UZR/150) than Pedro was at 3B in 2010 (-8 UZR/150). That’s exactly what I was getting at.
Yes, they are going to TRY to move Hamilton to a corner, because he keeps running into walls in center. But Borbon has to hit well enough to justify it. The same thing happened last year. Borbon tanked, Murphy stepped up, and that made all the difference.
Point is, Hamilton is not the greatest CF in the world, but his value there is greater IF that means another corner outfielder with a good bat is able to compensate for the lost defense.
You may remember that I was completely on your side on the Pedro at 3B thing as I watched him in AAA. The mitigating factor at that time that I mentioned was that I didn’t know how much Pedro’s superior arm strength would make up for his other problems.
After watching the games last year and seeing the UZR data, etc. I think there’s a decent chance that Pedro could stay 3B for several years because his arm strength makes it unnecessary to catch the ball cleanly half the time. He can knock it down and still throw out the runner.
It’s at least something that deserves a season of testing, anyway, in my opinion.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
zone rating has alvarez as #3 thirdbaseman in NL last season
you can find it on baseball reference.
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
No, you can't.
I’m not sure what you’re looking at, but B-R player pages don’t include vanilla ZR, and all the fielding metrics that B-R does include absolutely hate Pedro’s glove.
The zone-based metric that B-R does list, dWAR, indicates that Pedro cost us a win and a half with the glove last year, in only 95 games.
im sorry, but range factor says he was 3rd in the NL
in the awards sections. all metrics stink, including the range factor shit. my point is that we ALL know pedro has alot of work to do on defense, we dont need geeks with video cameras and ipods telling us this
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Mark
The problem with the use the offensive guy strategy: You have to have defenders somewhere. You can’t suck at every position, as the Pirates nearly did last year.
If the Pirates get to the point where they want to use a guy like Hamilton in center because of elite corner bats, I’m with you.
But it’s not the case.
I’m just stunned that anyone thinks Pedro can play the position long term. I watched him play 10 games and knew that it was highly unlikely.
Walker is not that bad at 2b. But the odds of him becoming “average” there are 10 percent, in my opinion.
Which is why
you’d think people would be happier about gaining 2 K/9 with Correia over Duke. But apparently not.
For the record...
I did like the Correia signing. I thought he provided good value for the money and was an upgrade over Duke. I’ve been underwhelmed with everything else.
I liked it as well
And I don’t think Diaz is a bad signing if you platoon him.
The mistake they've made the past 2 years
Is having a handful of could-bes, and calling that “options.” But if both Plan A and Plan B are “unproven Major Leaguer with an upside of serviceable,” then you’ll get a whole lot of Moss, Andy, DCutch, Morton, and the 2009 bullpen.
Setting aside Doumit (who isn’t really a starter at either position), Bowker, Pearce, and Jones represent 3 guys for 2 positions, none of whom has been productive for more than 90 MLB games, and all of whom we need to succeed in order to man the 2 positions properly, given platoon splits. And the upside – unless you think that 28-y.o.s are in line for not just peak, but breakout, seasons, is about what you get from Diaz and Overbay.
And yes, those guys are older and could break down (Diaz is cheap enough I don’t care, I’ve said Overbay is $1.5M too expensive IMO), but that doesn’t change the low odds of Bowker, Pearce, and Jones combining for 1300 productive PAs in 2011. Which is the preferred “plan” of the hair-pullers around here.
Point is...
we are 1-2 games better at best with these moves. We are not going anywhere this season. Let’s find out what Pearce can do in a full time role. He has earned the opportunitty IMO. Now I know that many of you feel he has had that already but, like Walker, he very obviously changed his approach last season which led to a +400 wOBA in AAA and a .355 wOBA in limited time in Pittsburgh. He also played excellent defense. IMO, I think he is a much better bet to outperform Overbay as a full time player. I wouldn’t have a problem not giving Pearce another shot had they actually upgraded over him. That’s my opinion but obviously NH doesn’t agree.
Or
NH does agree that Pearce should have a shot to play his way into the position but is not confident that he will out play Overbay.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 15, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
We will see.
It’s a bet I would gladly make if I thought Pearce would get enough at bats. I don’t see Overbay putting up a wOBA over .320.
I'm sure NH has a reason why...
doesn’t mean I’ll agree with it. I’m sure Littlefield had a reason for passing over Wieters and Heyward and drafting Moskos. Still doesn’t make it a good reason.
No, he doesn't
But it still makes this blowup pretty irrational. You’ve known she’s been cheating on you for 3 months, but not until you get the credit card bill with the motel charge on it do you actually get upset?
And, to be clear, the IF musical chairs would have been an aggressive, extremely unusual move. As I said elsewhere, not 5 GMs in the game would do it – if that many. That’s doesn’t make NH right, but it ameliorates it IMO. I can’t blame a guy in a conservative industry for not going way outside the box.
And, to be clear, the IF musical chairs would have been an aggressive, extremely unusual move.
Not really, no. Up until last year, Walker was a 3B who’d never played 2B before. Using him as a 2B was the aggressive, unusual move, and returning him to his natural position now that the emergency’s over would be the conventional and normal thing to do.
Similarly, 3Bs who can’t play 3B get moved to an easier position like LF/RF/1B all the time, as long as they have the bat for those positions. Look at Ryan Braun, or Jorge Cantu, or Russ Branyan.
and thome, and casey, and quite a few others
very good point
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Or our very own
Bobby Bo.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 18, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
No
But he was one.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
I think Berkman is a much better player than Overbay.
But if you mentioned Berkman or Lee around here a week ago, god, avoid them like the plague. Didn’t want to touch them with a 10 foot pole
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
There are degrees of stupidity.
Stabbing yourself in the hand with a cocktail fork is dumb, but less dumb than sticking that hand into a running garbage disposal.
That's not what I posted
I like Berkman at 1b. I hate him at that price and in the OF.
I do too. St. Louis seems to be the only team that wants him in the OF.
But if you mention his or Derrek Lee around here a week ago, you’d have been met with a chorus of “HELL NO’s”
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
Because those are the only two options, of course.
We had to spend the money on Overbay or Derrek Lee. Nobody else would take it, and it’d melt into dew and sunbeams if it wasn’t gone by tomorrow morning.
I've been pulling for Orlando Hudson for like three months now.
Getting in on the bidding for Nishioka wouldn’t have been a bad idea, either.
Fair enough
But that assumes the Pirates want to move Walker and/or Alavrez off their positions right now. I’m not much a fan of moving either off their positions right now, especially Walker. But I see the argument.
Vlad
I don’t understand why they didn’t make a serious run at Nishioka either.
I know that I have made that point a million times in this thread already
But that was the biggest loss this winter to me.
A 26 year old multiple WAR per season second baseman/shortstop was available for $5 million + 3 years/$10 million and the FO never even considered it.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
i mentioned above
that its possible NH went to Hudson and was turned down.
Nishioka, maybe, would have been a better go, but sometimes you make those calls at the time. Maybe he thought they could get a Webb or a Hudson at least? Given his track record, I’ll give him the benefit of doubt as of now
track record LOL
track record …thanks BK…I needed a laugh…as PO’d as Vlad is…I’m half thinking of getting rid of the full season tix…
NH’s track record? LOL…downgrades each FA signing
you have every right to rid yourself of the season tickets
thats hardly important. FA signings are constrained to a large extent by the realities of the situation. Unless you have significant reason to assume that the Bucs didnt have the union on their tail, or that others who would have been more appropriate were willing to come here, it doesnt make your argument any more valid than the opposite.
If I was forces to spend 100 extra dollars at the market
I wouldn’t go and buy BAR S chipped ham for 8.00 bucks a pound just hit my limit.
Overbay adds no value/ wins/ upgrade to this team…and 5 mill?
once again, you aint following
you would buy BAR S chipped ham, if you had to spend the money (union), and nobody would sell you anything else.
BK
I dont believe Overbay’s the only product in town..
This MGMT group lies at will…from extensions to the sano snafu….
Previous regimes did the same…we tried our best…anyone can put out offers that look semi competitive knowing darn well it’s not good enough…
An excuse again and again
How many times
does the “sano snafu” need to be explained?
It was his AGENT that screwed the Pirates, not the FO.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
also, to be clear
I’m not saying its a good signing, I said that in the fanshot this morning. I’m pointing out reasons this could have happened that are not terribly unlikely…
You obviously never played the game.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
this is very true
fortunately, he hasnt thrown that argument at me yet, so i dont need to run for cover. He has, however, thrown people who attend games at me, which i do! :-)
Perhaps,
but not from his vantage point.
So, that disqualifies you right outta th’ chute…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 17, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
It was Berkman’s dream to come to a winning organization like the Pirates. Its amazing that the deal never materialized….
by Designated Hitter on Dec 14, 2010 3:59 PM EST reply actions
Pearce's health
Has anyone heard anything on his knee? Maybe we wanted to play Pearce there the whole time but his recovery is slow or he is still injured. Maybe we really wanted to have a sound defensive first baseman to help Walker at 2nd. Only time will tell if this is a good deal. Also, maybe this will help jettison Doumit out of here now that there is major overcrowding. We should eat 4 million of his contract and get a reasonable prospect for him.
ONE POSITIVE
he;s wasting even more money than last year…5 mil for someone who’ll be almost untradable unless all salary eaten…
yep…100 losses and NH finally gets fired…thank god.
Pearce is on IR
GFJ got worse as the season went on last year
I don’t want Bowker starting.
Remind me again how Overbay makes this team worse
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
so why trade Lopez
If Bowker isn’t a player deserving a shot at starting….and why the praise for that deal in the first place?
you cant applaud everything…because either the deal sucks or the signing sucks…it cant be both
Remind me again how Overbay makes this team worse
OK. He’s no better than Pearce, Jones, or Bowker, and you don’t appreciate the lack of difference because you apparently don’t understand how to properly value players.
Not true
Taking ZIPS as gospel, that still leaves him as a win better than Jones, half a win better than Pearce (by your “generous” estimate), and I don’t know how much better than Bowkers.
So we just paid $5M for a theoretical half-win upgrade from Pearce to Overbay.
I.e. a little more than twice what such upgrades are supposed to cost on the open market.
Thank you for that vivid illustration of why this was such a stupid signing.
In addition ...
last year it was clear Dotel would have value at the trading deadline.
Pitchers usually do. And it’s even more so for guys who have closed.
But what value will Overbay have at the deadline? Zero. Just ask Toronto which tried to trade him last year.
toronto nearly DFA'd bautista the year before after aquiring encarnacion
whattya say about that?
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
"theoretical"
Because Pearce’s ability to put up 102 ERA+ over 155 starts is a given. Absolutely.
How many WAR is Andy LaRoche worth this season? I forget.
I don't necessarily agree
Their projections are similar, but Overbay is more likely to post that projection than Pearce and Bowker, there will be less variance in Overbay’s performance. At this point the team doesn’t have anyone they can look at and say we can expect X numbers of wins from this player, besides McCutchen. There is something to be said for consistency, isn’t there?
Their projections are similar, but Overbay is more likely to post that projection than Pearce and Bowker, there will be less variance in Overbay’s performance.
So the expected outcome is similar, but there’s more chance of Pearce drastically exceeding his projection… and this is supposed to be a point in Overbay’s favor?
And there is a chance Pearce becomes Jeff Clement...
…and has a sub .600 OPS.
Fortunately in that case
We have two more of the exact same guy already.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Seems unlikely...
…given that Pearce has consistently been the better player throughout both of their careers.
But as Johnny notes, that’s why it’s nice to have Bowker and Jones on hand to pick up the slack.
Not really, no.
“Unlikely” covers a bunch of things that could happen but probably won’t, like me finding a large gold nugget in my morning coffee. Is that technically possible, through some bizarre confluence of circumstance? Sure, but that doesn’t make two cups a day a viable retirement strategy.
and i dont see how you can say that pearce has been better than clement throughout their careers
pearce had the one monster season. clement was pretty much an above average hitting catcher his whole career.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
dont need a petition
his w/l records along w/ MLB roster moves are doing a better job than any petition could.
Sorry, guys, need to check out for a bit.
This move has me too angry – I’m going to pop a blood vessel if I don’t go take a walk or something.
Anyone who goes to the games
It’s another year of BS from FO…and NH continues to sign the worst avail FA’s available…not asking for the top but why always the BOTTOM OF BARREL?
Yes because we’re REALLY in a position to sign Gonzalez and Lee
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
Yes because we’re REALLY in a position to sign Gonzalez and Lee
You really love false equivalencies, don’t you? As if there were no available players in between the Gonzalez/Lee class and the fungible Overbay class…
I don't get it, Vlad
I can’t imagine Overbay was looking at more than a bench spot.
I can’t even fathom another team offering him $2 million.
But $5 million? That money would have been better spent, e.g., another bullpen arm.
Okay here’s where I think people are getting the wrong idea.
You think they wanted to spend $5 million on Lyle Overbay? Probably not, but he’d only sign here for that much. Now….. think about how much money a useful player would want from the Pirates. See where the problem is?
This big offseason splash some people deluded themselves into was never going to happen.
Then you tell Lyle Overbay to take his services ...
to the next team.
Where else would he have started next year?
you guys said the exact same thing about adam laroche when he was traded
surprising how much in demand a player can be, aint it?
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
Not really
I know I and others viewed LaRoche as an average starter.
And that’s what he is.
They should be smarter than this.
This is the kind of signing Dayton Moore or Ned Colletti would make. I had enough of this shit under Littlefield – I’m not going to eat it up with a spoon now just because I had higher hopes for NH and company.
True
But the real problem comes when they give them 3 years 30 million after they outperform their first contract. I doubt NH would take that step.
Easy Vlad
I don’t like the move.
But it’s not a Moskos or Matt Morris moment.
It's a criminally stupid waste of significant resources...
…by a franchise that can’t afford to make those kinds of errors.
We committed around one seventh of our entire major league payroll to a player that doesn’t add anything to our win total in two years and probably doesn’t add anything to our win total next year either.
The money comes from somewhere.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
Possibly
Unless Maholm or Doumit are moved.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
doumit
has no value at any cost. can’t catch, and his bat does not travel well to outfield or dh. maholm maybe traded in the spring some team has an injury.
by melikie yung tang on Dec 14, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Overbay's bat doesn't travel well to 1B or DH, either.
And I bet Doumit can catch better than Lyle can…
or, maybe
1. he’s trying to keep the union off the Pirates backs, and needed semi realistic targets to blow dough on
2. he offered the money to every Webb, Duscherer out there and they wouldnt come here.
Possible, no?
Possible, no?
Sure, in the sense that it’s “possible” that I could shove my hand through this desk if all the electrons lined up correctly.
There’s basically no chance that all the better-than-Overbay free agents already turned us down, even if we offered to overpay them by the amount that we’re overpaying for Overbay’s “upgrade”.
Agreed
Just worried about your BP.
I don’t see the logic in spending that much money on an aging mediocre player.
I don't remember the context for the comment ...
remind me. I guess it was a bad effort at sarcasm.
Your continued good health
is all our concern, V.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
Based on that
You appear to be immortal. I assume you’ll survive the Overbay signing as well.
But don’t think I won’t be mocking you for this 6 months hence.
Just because I haven't died YET...
…doesn’t mean that it’s not going to happen. Indeed, I’d be quite surprised if I didn’t, sooner or later. Pretty much everybody does.
“Criminally stupid”? Really? A one-year contract that still keeps us well below our stated target figure of $50 million? If it’s a mistake, then any team can afford a one-year mistake.
And though I’m not a big fan of the move, it’s still better than Pena at one year for $10 million (which may have helped set the market).
"Criminally stupid"? Really? A one-year contract that still keeps us well below our stated target figure of $50 million?
They could give ME a “one-year contract that keeps us below our stated payroll target of $50M”, and that wouldn’t keep my signing from being criminally stupid.
If teams are going to spend money, they need to try and do it in ways that significantly improve the team’s performance. Doing otherwise is stupid. This shouldn’t be a difficult concept to understand.
Gonzalez isn't free agent
and there’s a bunch of Lee’s
thanks for the knowledgable post once again…as they all are
said not asking for the top
unless Lee’s not the top in your wisdom and Gonzalez finally got an early out clause and is a FA…your post speaks for itself
2.75-3.0 million
max for overbay, so we have 2 million less to sign Dominicans or draft picks ….. dumb dumb. This is neil at his best , over- priced has been at 1b and 11million dollars of salary dump catchers behind the plate. Also 33 million in draft picks the last 3 years and No position players on the horizon for this year. Wow how does this guy keep his job?
by melikie yung tang on Dec 14, 2010 5:04 PM EST reply actions
max for overbay, so we have 2 million less to sign Dominicans or draft picks
Different budgets, doesn’t effect draft/int’l bonuses in the least
really?
so the million statements about budgets being separate are false? Is it possible they may have increased the budget?
33M in the draft- and how long do draft picks typically spend in the minors? 2 years, is it? because its been about 2.5 years since NHs first draft and we have one in the big leagues already! Very insightful of you…
still waiting
name a position player other than sanchez , that is on the way.
by melikie yung tang on Dec 14, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
how do you define "on the way"?
since you raise Sanchez, I m gonna assume you are talking about being in A+ or above? In which case, I’d point out D’Arnaud, Holt, Hague. (And I only picked guys with somewhat decent numbers/prospect status – there’s Mercer, Anderson, Farrell, Grossman)
4 position players “on the way”- how many did you want 2 years down from the first draft? Esp since you cherry picked your way into position players, because of course, teams draft position players only. Also, i expect that this will not please you, and if it doesn’t, please give me examples of 4-5 orgs who have more in the last 3 draft span.
maybe
i asked melikie for what he calls “on the way”. But a bench player is a position player on the way, in very literal terms.
Hague may end up a starter for someone.
none of us in here have a clue what is going to happen with any of the prospects
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
We don't know, but we can make educated guesses.
And the number of players with a track record similar to Hague’s who grew up to be starters is very, very low. If he’s going to start in the majors, he needs to get his game in gear, post-haste.
then whats so special about Pearce?
other than the one monster year, whats so special??? Why does he have a future and Hague has none?
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Eh.
I don’t like this a whole lot. But I bet the Pirates are just trying to keep the MLB monkey off their back about payroll. Since it didn’t work with De La Rossa, Hardy, Bartlett or any other somewhat pricey veterans, they went with Overbay.
Furthermore, I think Neal Huntington is a smart guy. He’s not gonna throw away all his money on Overbay and then not be able to sign his first overall draft pick or other draft picks they want or any international talent. I doubt this will take money away from signing amateur talent.
Best case scenario, the Pirates will be able to pull another Dotel on July 31st.
I wasn't aware...
…that Overbay had any experience as a closer.
Look at what the Brewers got for him when they moved him to Toronto back in ‘05: Overbay and Taubenheim for Dave Bush, Gabe Gross, and Zach Jackson. And that’s when Overbay was younger, less expensive, and more productive than he is now.
That being the case, why would we expect to get any significant return for him next year?
Hmmm.
That being the case, why would we expect to get any significant return for him next year?
Because there are still stupid general managers out there willing to give up too much in a trade. And I said that it was the best case scenario….
by IAPiratesFan on Dec 14, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Toronto tried last year ..
and found zero interest.
If Mitch Moreland would not have unexpectedly worked out for the Rangers, I’m sure the Rangers would have been interested.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
Doubt it.
The Rangers actually did trade for a 1B at the deadline last year, and it wasn’t Overbay.
So at a maximum, they liked him less than Cantu, who isn’t exactly a world-beater.
Cantu’s a righty. Moreland was working out as their lefty.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
Where in this comment string...
…did it say that the Rangers would have been interested in Overbay because he was a lefty?
Oh, that’s right: Nowhere.
You said they obviously liked Cantu more than Overbay, since they traded for Cantu and didn’t trade for Overbay.
I was pointing out that that reasoning is faulty because Cantu and Overbay were not equivalent pieces.
The Rangers had a left handed 1B already and they wanted someone who would be more versatile. Cantu can play 3B as well as 1B, and even 2B in a pinch, whereas Overbay is strictly a 1B.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 17, 2010 3:18 AM EST up reply actions
Mark
I don’t live in Texas so correct me if I’m wrong.
But at the time of the trade, I thought Cantu was supposed to be regular statter and Moreland would get spot starts.
But then Moreland kept hitting and Cantu tanked.
I’m pretty sure Cantu was starting against RHP initially.
I would agree that Cantu and Overbay aren’t equivalent pieces. But for a different reason. Overbay is a worse player.
Actually
Cantu was obtained mostly to be the right handed platoon with Chris Davis, who was recalled after Smoak was traded earlier in the month. However, at the same time, Moreland was called up and he ended up being the left handed part of the platoon.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 18, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure you need two ...
but Moreland was just an interesting guy at that point who seemed to be doing pretty well.
I’m sure the Rangers wanted an upgrade to try to win a World Series.
The Red Sox were interested but then Overbay missed some time and when he came back I think the Sox knew they were out of it. But no, this isn’t a signing to bring back a return but instead to add some stability to a very poor infield defense last year.
Overbay
He played in 154 games last year. I hate to say I’m skeptical. But he must have missed the games right before the Sox were ready to pull the trigger.
True, but I had done a search yesterday at mlbtraderumors and came across a couple of entries on Lyle Overbay from Aug. 27 and Sept. 1 mentioning trade interest, particularly from the Red Sox. The entry about the Red Sox said that Overbay was dealing with post-concussion symptoms and implied that was what led to the Red Sox backing off.
Maybe ...
just like the Pirates expected so much trade interest in Doumit that they wouldn’t have to pay any of his contract?
Any chance those “rumors” were out there to drum up a market for a playing having a below average year?
Let’s just say I’m skeptical.
More likely result for Overbay is that he qualifies as a Type B FA next year and we get an extra draft pick (but Overbay did not qualify this year).
we tried to trade zach duke
wow, the teams just lined up for that one, eh? his numbers will be stellar in AZ!!!!
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
wow, the teams just lined up for that one, eh?
At least one team was willing to trade for Duke, in that one team actually did trade for him. Nobody traded for Overbay…
toronto did, and so did milwaukee
look, i get it, you dont like the overbay signing. you win. hes a bum. you wore me down.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Screw that.
Get him some Yuengling stat!
Alcohol is a relaxant, right?
by IAPiratesFan on Dec 14, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
I'm always amused...
…by people who think I’m some kind of mindless apologist for the front office. They obviously don’t remember some of the things I wrote back in the Littlefield era.
They obviously don't remember the Littlefield era
They want Littlefield back. Or at least some of them think he would be better.
by IAPiratesFan on Dec 14, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
how about a competent GM
we had 2 losers…dont want neither…believe it or not there’s others available.
A reminder about DLR
People keep mentioning this signing, but it wasn’t about $$ so much as it was about the player option, which is a terrible, stupid thing for a team to put into any contract. NH beat the money, but he wouldn’t match the terms, because the terms were bad. Do you really wish that he had offered DLR a 4th year as a player option?
also
um its also ,by not offering a player option got you "an out " from your original offer. in others words they never had any intention of signing DLR.
by melikie yung tang on Dec 14, 2010 5:18 PM EST reply actions
LET'S REMEMBER
TO COME BACK TO THE OVERBAY/PEARCE/BOWKER/JONES/DIAZ ISSUE AT THE END OF NEXT SEASON. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHO WAS RIGHT AND WHO WAS WRONG HERE.
Good idea to provide some accountability. And to jperb, I’m sure Giants fan boards had a similar reaction when they signed Huff last year—we’re due for one to really work out, right?
Huff ...
has had much better years than Overbay.
He’s been more erratic. But he has played at an all-star level several times.
I’m not sure that’s a comparison I’d agree with.
overbay has been more consistant and a better fielder than huff. huff really doesnt have a position either
not a good comparison. adam laroche, dare i say, is a good comparison.
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
I'm saying Huff's elite years ...
are better than Overbay’s elite years.
Let me know when Overbay posts a .900 OPS or sluggs .550.
Huff is ridiculously inconsistent. But his elite years have been better than Overbay’s elite years.
I don’t disagree that Overbay is more consistently below average than Huff, though.
Consistency is only valuable...
…when the consistent performances are also strong performances. Rafael Belliard was consistent, but it didn’t make him an All-Star.
I didn’t mean to imply a direct comparison to Huff, only that Huff was coming off of a very mediocre year and is a similar age as Overbay. Huff was actually the Giants’ 2nd choice after LaRoche turned them down, IIRC. It couldn’t have been a popular move at the time.
Actually, given the absurd amount of money the Giants offered LaRoche, I think the fans were thrilled that they ended up with absolutely anyone else when it was all said and done. But I see your point!
by Superstar25 on Dec 15, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
By god, my friend didn’t freak out this bad when he saw the ventriloquist dummy while he was on acid.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
I would argue that betting against Pearce and Bowker as quad-A players is a legitimate opinion for the FO to have, as is betting against Jones recovering from his second half swoon.
I won’t tell that to the lynch mob, though. Honestly, don’t see too many problems with this signing even though Overbay would not have been my first choice. He is a better starter for his position than Cedeno, who is well below major league competency for a starter, IMHO.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 5:29 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I would argue that betting against Pearce and Bowker as quad-A players is a legitimate opinion for the FO to have, as is betting against Jones recovering from his second half swoon.
They aren’t just betting on one of those things, though. They’re betting on all three being true, PLUS Overbay staying productive and healthy in his dotage.
As any gambler will tell you, four-way parlays are sucker bets.
All parlays are sucker bets
Unless each principle involved in it of themselves is significantly valuable.
They went with experience over 3 guys with 1/2 year MLB success total. It’s debatable, but I don’t think they’re necessarily wrong.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 6:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He is a better starter for his position than Cedeno…
Which makes it all the more a pity that we didn’t spend the money on a shortstop upgrade.
You’re spittin’ fightin’ mad that they signed Overbay, but are also spittin’ fighting mad that they didn’t trade for a similar player who makes just as much money? More important position sure, but also….. JJ Hardy? Really? Ryan? Really?
Get a grip man
You’re spittin’ fightin’ mad that they signed Overbay, but are also spittin’ fighting mad that they didn’t trade for a similar player who makes just as much money?
If we had four shortstops on the team who were almost as good at shortstop as Overbay is at 1B, I wouldn’t have been as interested in bringing in a shortstop upgrade. But we don’t.
It’s about marginal wins gained per dollar spent. Try to keep up, durr.
If we had four shortstops on the team who were almost as good at shortstop as Overbay is at 1B, I wouldn’t have been as interested in bringing in a shortstop upgrade. But we don’t.
Okay here’s what I’m seeing
JJ Hardy over Cedeno – Yay! It’s a marginal upgrade for $5 million! Plus we have to keep Cedeno’s salary because who the hell wants him? So what’s $7 million or so for a very slightly better SS and his backup? It’s not my money
Overbay over the field – OH MY GOD IT’S THE WORST THING EVER!!!!!!! A MARGINAL UPGRADE FOR $5 MILLION!!!! WHERE’S MY GUN!!?!
So your threshold from happy to kicking animals is very very thin
Again I’m not suggesting this was a good move. Or even an okay one. But your reaction is bordering on psychotic.
Hardy would have been a way bigger upgrade than Overbay is. Again, take a breather.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Charlie pretty much said it. The difference between Hardy and Cedeno (large) is bigger than the difference between Overbay and Pearce/Bowker/Jones (small to nonexistent).
Also
Cedeno would be a useful utility guy.
He could even play 2b.
There’s a lot more value with that than Overbay.
and no one mentions Hardy's injury problems, or his offense lagging behind...
we all want to beat Ronny over the head… “its ronny’s fault!” its ludicrous, hateful and most importantly wrong. you can preach all about UZR all you want, but ive noticed that other metrics out there, like zone rating, that actually say that Ronny is GOOD.
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
Just so you know...
total zone rating is a good defensive metric but not as advanced as UZR or +/- because it relies on play-by-play logs instead of video.
i think all metrics are experimental at best
your admiration of UZR is an opinion. one UZR is accepted by all of MLB, then i’ll pay attention to it.
by white angus on Dec 15, 2010 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
This is a very good point—all should check out Christina Kahrl’s blog entry at BP from Monday on a couple of conversations she had at the Winter Meetings. Evidently the major league teams don’t trust UZR (from an assistant GM: “Nobody uses it—why would they? They’ve all built their own, better metrics.”)
The Overbay move was clearly about defense but unfortunately we’ll never see the metrics that the decision was based on.
I agree
I find the defensive measures questionable at best.
I do suspect NH and others have their own measures that we can’t imagine.
Eh, maybe we will, and maybe we won't.
Five years ago, the Cardinals were paying MGL for his UZR numbers. Five years from now, a lot of the stuff that’s currently proprietary will be old hat, and will end up available to fans like us because even better things have been developed in the interim.
Funny you say that because I prefer +/-.
And I wasn’t trying to be a dick. I just saw you throwing out total zone rating to support a Pedro is good at defense argument and I thought you should be aware that it is universally accepted as an inferior product to UZR and +/-. It’s subject to the same flaws without having the accuracy of video.
i never said pedro was good on defense
i said the total zone said he was 3rd best. my point was that there are apparently many different ways to judge defense, and none of them should be the “bible” from which a player is judged. not yet anyway.
None should be the bible...
agreed but that doesn’t mean you can’t recognize a tool that is clearly better than another one. Total zone is basically UZR without video. It has all the negatives without the benefit of watching every play. Point being, just because total zone says something different than UZR or +/- it doesn’t logically follow that it discredits those two because it is widely accepted as an inferior tool.
and whom does the UZR? why should we listen to them?
does it take in affect bad bounces? defensive alignment made by the coaching staff? there are now alot of defensive metrics out there and most are showing stats different than everyone else, including UZR.
and whom does the UZR?
If you aren’t genuinely interested enough in UZR to take 30 seconds and figure out the answer to this for yourself, why should any of us waste time talking to you about defensive metrics? It’s like debating the terminal velocity of a falling object with someone who can’t be arsed to look up the definition of the word “gravity”.
im not interested because its NOT how baseball people judge defense
its how geeks like US judge defense. sure, there are GM’s out there who are really getting into the metrics, but i for one am not one of them. i watch the game for enjoyment, not to study and wish i were one of those polo wearing cocky newbies…. wait, now im forgetting what im even arguing about!!! damn this alzheimers!!!
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
………..
From what I just looked up JJ Hardy had a full WAR point more than Cedeno last season. Over the last 2 been almost 2 points higher. Okay fine, an upgrade. So let’s say he’d be a full WAR point better again this season. Seems to be the trend, so I’ll take that as gospel
From what I’ve read on here Overbay is projected to be about a full WAR point better than what Pearce and/or Bowker would be this coming season. And projections are never wrong so I’ll take that as gospel
Is there some sort of super-secret stat I’m missing that’s showing this huuuuge gap between Hardy-Cedeno that doesn’t exist between Overbay-The Field? Yeah okay fine Cedeno sucks, we all know that. But JJ Hardy hasn’t exactly been 2007 JJ Hardy the last few years himself, just as Overbay isn’t 2007 Overbay. They’re both practically the same guy for the same price replacing about the same quality of player.
I stand by my “You’re all insane if you’re freaking out about this” stance.
But JJ Hardy hasn’t exactly been 2007 JJ Hardy the last few years himself, just as Overbay isn’t 2007 Overbay. They’re both practically the same guy for the same price replacing about the same quality of player
I’ll add in Hardy’s favor also that he’s 7 years younger. So he’s could more easily get back to his peak potential. However, he’s also just as likely to be the average not-all-that-much-better-than-Cedeno type player he’s been the last couple seasons.
One win is Overbay's absolute high end improvement for us
It’s not Hardy’s.
Overbay has a really good chance of falling off of a cliff statistically either this year or next but we gave him $5 million anyway.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 15, 2010 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
Who cares about next year (2012)? Why even bring it up? He won’t be here
And Hardy has just as good a chance to fall off a cliff too. If his injury history is any indication that may be a literal statement.
Long story short here’s what everyone’s freaking out about: You’re freaking out about not getting a guy who, while better than our current guy, hasn’t been that good the last few years. His one career year not-withstanding he’s been astoundingly average and he’s an injury concern to boot. JJ Hardy was not going to make the Pirates THAT much better this season all by himself. He was not the different between 100 losses and the playoffs. He’s not even the difference between 100 losses and 95 losses. Any improvement the Pirates had this coming season will come from improvements made by guys already on the team. Period. You’re all freaking out over literally nothing. Save it for when they do something that’s actually indefensible like releasing Ryan Doumit.
We are freaking out
not because Overbay sucks as much as the unfortunate practical implication of his signing in the context of the progression of the big league team and franchise as a whole.
For the first time in years the team had gaping voids that it made sense to aggressively fill with strong, likely more expensive, players that figured to be around when the team was truly competitive. The time to win at the big league level is no more than a year a way; it is time to start making the push for big league success.
Ownership underscored the appropriate timing for such moves by publicly discussing the need to add “weapons”. However, the moves made thus not only fail to serve that purpose, but strongly suggest that no moves to serve that purpose is going to happen this off season. Ergo, the baseball acumen, creativity, and competence of management and/or the commitment of ownership to winning are drawn into serious question for the first time regarding this group.
Perhaps you disagree, but I trust that you have managed to grasp the issue.
This time, I really am done.
Good day.
For the first time in years the team had gaping voids that it made sense to aggressively fill with strong, likely more expensive, players that figured to be around when the team was truly competitive.
Who are these players of which you speak?
by MarkInDallas on Dec 15, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Hudson and Nishioka would’ve made a lot more sense as 2Bs than Overbay does as a 1B. You can also make a good case for bringing in an Overbay-equivalent SP with Overbay’s money, since pretty much all of our non-McDonald starters are significant collapse risks going forward, and we only have seven options before we’re down to the Burres/Karstens/McCutchen tier of options there.
FWIW
I don’t really see a reason to exempt McDonald from being a collapse risk. Last season was his only sustained success as an SP – that could be his high water mark. Among other things, I worry a bit about his scrawny frame throwing that heat.
I’m pro-McDonald, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t see him as inherently more reliable than anyone else in our rotation.
Who cares about next year (2012)? Why even bring it up? He won’t be here
No, but Hardy might, if we’d gotten him instead. And even if we weren’t willing/able to reach a long-term deal with Hardy, we would’ve still had a much better chance of converting a breakout 2011 from Hardy into value via post-season trade or draft pick compensation.
And then there is this
Hardy would have filled a much more significant need than Overbay. And his peak, which is far more likely to be realized in the future, is much more valuables than Overbay’s.
I think I’m done on this thread now.
Good day.
You’re going off the track in two areas, Travis. First, you’re overestimating the size of the gap between Overbay and his potential replacements, and second, you’re underestimating the potential size of the gap between Hardy and Cedeno (in that Hardy has a much higher chance of delivering an unexpectedly strong performance than Overbay does).
Overbay is making more than he should. I won't contest you there
However, I think we differ on how good he actually is. Overbay, positionally adjusted, is a slightly below average player, but at a very important position. There were 17 first basemen with higher WAR than him last year. Overbay is making half of what Carlos Pena is making, and he was half a win better than him last year. We could have done a lot worse.
I know you think we have duplicates in Jones, Bowker, and Pearce. I disagree with you there. Bowker and Pearce have pretty small sample sizes, but they haven’t shown anything to indicate they can play everyday. Pearce had a good three days last year before he got hurt. I’ve documented my thoughts on Jones many times, that I think he’s one of the worst players in baseball against lefties (.272 wOBA, Jesus Christ) and therefore can’t play everyday. He’s an auto-out against any LOOGY, too.
Overbay is incredibly unspectacular, but he’s at least semi-passable against everybody. His .310 mark against lefties is 40 points higher than Jones. That’s going to show through over a full season. He was essentially even with Jones vs. righties, technically three points better, but that’s nitpicking. He’s also better defensively.
He helps everybody on the team more than Jones did last year, and he’s a much safer bet to do it this year than Pearce or Bowker. I’d be bullshitting you if I said this was some sort of steal, since it’s clearly not, but on a one-year deal, there have been worse moves made.
I’m also confident that if he doesn’t play up to the adequacy he’s expected to and is outplayed by one of the previously mentioned players, he’ll be replaced. Huntington’s not afraid to pull any plugs.
by Suffering Buc on Dec 14, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree with you there. Bowker and Pearce have pretty small sample sizes, but they haven’t shown anything to indicate they can play everyday.
Except for several years’ worth of minor league success, which apparently doesn’t count when it’s inconvenient to the point that people want to make.
Also, none of the pro-Overbay commentary is properly accounting for his decline risk, as a relatively un-athletic 34-year-old.
Overbay’s skills aren’t “young man” skills. He has okay power (though I’d like more from that position) and can draw a walk. That’s his appeal, and neither of those things is likely to go away with one year.
I’m not discounting minor league success. I just don’t see it translating well for Pearce, particularly. He’s hit for less power in the minors than Overbay has in the majors, and his walk rates, while good, are no better than Overbay’s.
Pearce is more cost-efficent, but I don’t think he’s better. For the Pirates’ sake, I’d love to be wrong, but I don’t think I will be.
by Suffering Buc on Dec 14, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
Look at Overbay's top 10 comps
One was a legit success late into his career (McRae)
Three had good seasons at age 34 and then immediately fell off of a cliff (Clendenon, Robinson, Segui)
Two had sustained careers after 34 with subpar bats (Snow, McQuinn)
And four absolutely cratered (Gilkey, O’Leary, Crodova and our own KY)
Betting on Overbay to produce this year at a level over 110 OPS+ is whistling past the graveyard.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
But a 102 OPS+ is pretty likely, and I don’t see a lot of risk in it going below average. Pearce or Bowker could do that, too, but it’s a lot less of a certainty and with a lot more chance to fail entirely.
By the way, where did you find his “top 10 comps?”
by Suffering Buc on Dec 14, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
He's talking about Sim Score comps from B-R.
Go here, and scroll down to “Similarity Scores”.
Not a perfect measure in that it isn’t adjusted for park or league context. The number of 1Bs who remained productive at 34 isn’t as high as you’d think, though, and the Sim Score list is a reflection of that.
I don't love sim scores either
But generally if you take an aggregate of the top ten it should give you a fairly decent expectation.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
Overbay, to me, isn’t a marginal upgrade. He’s a marginal downgrade, and it makes no sense for a small-market team like the Pirates to spend $5 million on a downgrade. In my opinion, a platoon of Pearce/Jones outhits Overbay. Lyle O. might be a slight improvement on defense, but 1B are paid to mash. It’s an offense-first position.
I’d rather the Pirates go trade for some 4A player lthan waste money on Overbay. I’d rather the Pirates give $5 million to charity than spend it on Overbay. I’d rather see the owner pocket an extra $5 million profit than spend it on Overbay.
4A??? isnt that what pearce and bowker are already???
for the record, i think 4A is an insult to the players.
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
Pearce looked like a different player in his short stint last season. I’d like to see more. I do think Bowker is a 4A guy, but I’d rather he get a chance to disprove the label than give 600 at-bats to Overbay.
i say make pearce and/or bowker earn that shot in spring
overbay is already established. lets see if pearce can take that job. he couldnt take it from clement, nor jones, nor laroche. he is NOT being screwed over. he needs to do what Walker did: outplay the encumbant and steal the position.
If it were a true open competition
while not agreeing w the signing…It’s be a fair and just move…competition does bring out the best usually…
BUT NH doesn’t do things that way…He’s already announcing the starting line-up of position players…and unless the other 29 teams in baseball are wrong…it is the managers job to dictate who plays were…
Puppet strings…Hurdle, you have to hire my coaches…and I will tell you who plays where and who starts…
There;s been no JOB competition going into a soring training for 3 years…anyone who disagrees has a convienent memory…he’s already got the starting line-up done…If Pearce or Bowker (who I expect to be DFA’d) get hot in spring…they will be sat not to start contraversy.
Agree with Angus and Dan...
I’d have no problem with a competition (I don’t really believe in spring competitions) but the truth is in order for Pearce to see time in Pittsburgh he will have to tear AAA again and have Overbay get hurt or suck or both. I agree with Dan that NH has promised Overbay the job and as such Pearce will not see any action unless the scenarios I list play out.
still, its up to Pearce to put up the numbers again
He was called up, got hurt, end of season. If he does it again, he deserves a chance. But people on here who say Pearce has been screwed also thought walker was being screwed, and bixler, and so on… side note, they are also the same people who thought mclouth was the next AVS
But people on here who say Pearce has been screwed also thought walker was being screwed, and bixler, and so on…
Actually, if you check the record, I only ever mocked Walker and Bixler for saying that they’d gotten screwed, and said that they needed to hit better if they wanted to get a shot at a regular ML job.
Unlike Pearce, who actually has hit well, for all the good it’s done him.
are you kidding?
pearce has done NOTHING in the big leagues, unless you consider a DL visit as a stat. for the record, im not an overbay guy, and im not a pearce hater. but i just dont see the love for Pearce. i just dont.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Realistically,
don’t MOST teams have their lineups set, players in place?
I think so, unless it’s a team in flux.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
If it's a team trading for highly productive AAA
who have been blocked or just haven’t had the opportunity….
Pgh should be looking for a mid/ longer term solution…we trade for these guys and w/ no real rhyme or reason…NH chooses who to start (stats are meaningless)…like starting Clement..who not only couldn’t field but he didn’t hit either..very average AAA numbers yet decide not to give a guy who’s decidedly outhit him and outfielded him the same opportunity.
And it’s not a fluke…Bowkers swing is better than Clements…we have a chief who cant judge anything talent wise though…
And the past 3 years of increased losing…incredibly bad news bear like playing…it’s lame brain/ no common sense ideas like this that insure we remain a laughing stock.
But,
don’t MOST teams have their lineup in place?
You didn’t really answer that.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2010 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
yes most teams do
unless you have a 34 yr old .243 1B and young and higher upside alternatives who have ripped AAA pitching waiting for their chance.
some idiots think bringing in a bunch of old guys who produced years ago and have career stats over and above the guys who are younger and haven’t had their shot is the smart way to go.
"... yes most teams do ..."
See? “Yes” or “no” question – simple answer. Most. Teams. Do.
That wasn’t so hard, was it? ;-)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2010 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
its not that we're not using pearce
its because NH signed overbay. if we signed berkman or lee for the twice the amount as lyle, Dan wouldnt have a problem with it.
Two different scenarios
We didn’t have someone similar to Overbay here last year to play instead of Clement, so why not let him get his feet wet.
Would you rather have seen what Clement could do or have Ryan Church in RF everyday with Jones at 1B?
They ended up giving us about the same result but at least we determined if Clement could be valuable.
This year we have someone that the front office believes will not go through that horrible stretch like Clement did so we don’t have to go through that again.
by tsbulldawgs64 on Dec 16, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Overbay wasn't a full-time starter in the majors until his age 27 season.
Was he, too, a AAAA player?
Players with young players' skills...
…actually tend to age more gracefully than players with old man skills like Overbay’s. That’s part of the reason I don’t like the signing – there’s significant downside risk associated with him.
I’m curious how much regression you see in his numbers this year. Maybe see a triple slash?
By the way, as a reference point, I did Fangraphs projections for him, Pearce, and Bowker last week, so there should be no bias in them. The WAR numbers were done by the computer after I entered a series of numbers ranges.
I projected Pearce for 0.9 WAR and Overbay for 1.7. I had Bowker at -0.4.
by Suffering Buc on Dec 14, 2010 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
but were you taking into consideration previous minor league success for Pearce and Bowker?
That counts…if you need to make your point, and the players have little-to-no ML success.
by insane_sanity on Dec 14, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
I took minor league numbers into consideration more with Pearce than with Bowker, who’s had a little more chance to succeed than Pearce and done little with it.
by Suffering Buc on Dec 14, 2010 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Bowker is one of the few players in baseball who have been jerked around more than Pearce though…using some combination of minor league equivalcies, ZiPS projection and your own judgment would be the most fair way to grade those two.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
Likeliest result is something a hair down from his 2010.
.250/.330/.410, or something in that vicinity.
My answer was still Nishioka.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
The few times that I have seen Nishioka there isn’t any reason to think that he couldn’t handle short. He’s probably better at second but his range is quite good and his arm is strong enough.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think that he would be worse than a push with Cedeno while being a sizable offensive upgrade…probably a three win swing minimum with the potential for more.
AND he has a hot girlfriend. So there’s that too.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
Eh
I’m skeptical of Nishioka. He slaps at the ball and has had a hard time staying in the lineup in Japan, where the schedule is less grueling and the game is less physical for a middle infielder than it is here.
I don’t expect him to be a big success. But the Twins have a long track record of being smarter than I am, so there’s that.
He slaps at the ball and has had a hard time staying in the lineup in Japan, where the schedule is less grueling and the game is less physical for a middle infielder than it is here.
The NPB schedule is 18 games shorter than the MLB schedule. As a result, Nishioka’s GP totals aren’t as low as his raw numbers would indicate. He had 120 GP out of a possible 144 last year. Prorated out to a 162-game schedule, that’s 135 games played, comparable to what our incumbent everyday shortstop did last year (Cedeno – 139).
As for the “less grueling” thing, there are good and bad points to both MLB and NPB on that front. The shorter Japanese schedule is probably helpful for stamina, but Japanese practices are (on average) considerably more intense and taxing than US ones. We don’t have anything even close to the Thousand Ground Ball Drill, for example.
Hey...
Maybe he’ll be solid.The Twins certainly have earned the benefit of the doubt. But there certainly some question marks surrounding him. Compared to guys like Kaz Matsui and Iwamura, his NPB hitting numbers are not impressive. So we’ll see.
Of course
Hardy apparently only cost a A+ ball pitcher and a 27 year old journeyman type.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
never let anyone say that pirates fans don't care...
in under five hours, the signing of lyle overbay has produced over 500 comments… wow…
by Captain Easychord on Dec 14, 2010 6:03 PM EST reply actions
it's pretty sweet being an Oriole fan,
only 13 consecutive losing seasons!
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
We got 30,000 hits here last Thursday, and the only things that happened that day were the Rule 5 draft and the acquisition of Cesar Valdez.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 14, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
In fairness...
…20,000 of those Rule 5 hits were probably me refreshing the site from my mobile browser.
8,000
were from Pirates21 and his man-crush on Lars.
He's kind of taken it to an unreasonable extremes...
…but Lars genuinely is a pretty good 1B prospect.
Would you say that Lars is better than Steve Pearce?
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
In 2011? Probably not.
Going forward? Yes.
I think Lars needs at least one more turn at AAA before he’s ready for a ML role, and probably a couple of years before he hits for much over-the-fence power. It’s easy to forget that he was only 22 last year. But he should turn into a starting-caliber 1B and have a decent career, as long as he doesn’t get jammed up in Boston’s system and stall at AAA.
I'm a big Cesar Valdez fan
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
They care deeply about nutting’s wallet, because at minimum this is a defensive upgrade.
Seriously, I would have preferred 1. Better SP, and 2. another infield position. Or Berkman/Lee. But none of that wanted to play with us.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 6:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
eh
just noticed there’s no overbay thread on the pbc blog yet. I assume its subsumed under the baseball talk placeholder post
Not to mention that there was the small error of saying Huntington said that the left hander Jones would play against all left handed pitchers and Diaz would play against all right handed pitchers.
But, considering your new found disdain for Huntington, you might think that was not the PG’s mistake.
:-)
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Everyone except me IIRC want ed to start Clement at first last year. I said he wouldn’t be good defensively and would be worth between 0-1 war. So admittedly I do have a different idea of first basemen than most on the forum.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 6:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I'll admit
I did want to start Clement as a platoon with Pearce…no regrets either, had to see what he could do fulltime.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 14, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
You were wrong though
Clement wasn’t bad defensively. He was fine defensively, but didn’t hit.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 14, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
Actually...
Pearce was hitting just fine last year. He had a .413 wOBA in AAA and .355 wOBA in Pittsburgh until he got hurt; though it was only 38 plate appearances. I thought he had earned another look this season but obviously NH doesn’t agree.
he does get another look
he got the extra option so obviously NH doesnt want to lose him. theres also spring training, which last season, btw, he underwhelmed everyone.
by white angus on Dec 15, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
I think it's more like
Pearce may or may not be good in 2011. It’s better to have someone like Overbay there to make sure Pearce is earning a spot by out performing him. Overbay will probably not hit LHPs well, and so after a few weeks of that, Pearce will start to get more starts against them, and we’ll see if he takes advantage of that opportunity.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 15, 2010 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
THAT
would be nice.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2010 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
I think Pearce could hit a home run every time up in spring training...
…and we’d still see Overbay starting on opening day. Unfortunately.
Pearce is going to have to significantly out-hit Bowker in ST just to make the roster, given that he has an option left and Bowker doesn’t. Bowker can’t platoon with Overbay, but since they’ve said that they don’t anticipate Overbay being used in a platoon, that isn’t going to have much effect on the initial roster composition.
So I’m crazy…BFD. At least I don’t take it personally. And many of the regulars on here will attest to me admitting when I’m wrong.
Pearce has had ONE spell of playing semi regularly. From July 23 to September 1st in 2009, the Pirates played 36 games. Pearce started 27 of them.
His triple slash numbers for that period… .248/.313/.429 for a .742 OPS.
Clement’s numbers in 2010… ..201/.237/.368 for a .605 OPS. Which was actually an improvement over his first half numbers of .189/.230/.331.
Jones 2010 numbers… 247/.306/.414 for a .720 OPS.
The one opportunity Pearce got to play semi-regularly…he outperformed what we got out of Jones or Clement last year. But don’t let that get in the way of your thinking or anything.
for the record, i said crazy as "US", meaning me too
and pearce out performing jones or clement has nothing to do with aquiring Overbay who has done so much more than Pearce ever has, or ever will. Pearce will end up as a Tagg Bozied kind of guy; journeyman minor leaguer with no real skill to set him apart from other 1B.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
$5 million
I think of all the things the Pirates could spend $5 million on.
And Overbay wouldn’t make the list.
1. Pay down debt.
2. See Cutch about an extension.
3. Make another international signing.
Seriously, how easy is it to see DL making this move and saying, “This is a terrific day for Pirate fans. We have a veteran presence. We have an elite first baseman.”
I’m sure the idiot raved about the move today.
Bernie -
Re: #2 – that $5MM needs to have a LOT more $MM added to it before it becomes pertinent.
IMO, that’s a bit of a stretch.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I know
I meant it as the signing bonus part of an extension.
Not the extension. Unless, of course, he has signed on with Longoria’s agent. Then we might get him for four years for that money.
I have nightmares of Littlefield dancing in my head.
This is, essentially, the equivalent of Sean Casey, Joe Randa, Chris Stynes etc. There are some cracks in my support of the F.O. I love the way they have conducted the draft, 100% agree with the trades they have made in theory, but their ability to handle the ML roster is very questionable, and they are starting to show signs of DL-like mistrust of younger players.
Everything that guy just said is bullshit . . .thank you
there is no mistrust, enough with the conspiracy stuff
overbay, like him or not, is a better 1Bman that pearce or bowker. i like pearce/bowker, i really do, but neither one has done anything to grab a permanent MLB job. shit, the legend grabbed a starting job with his 2009 season and now is already in a platoon!!!
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
I think that there is room to disagree that Pearce especially but also Bowker has earned a shot. I would much rather see what they can do with the position than paying 1/7 of the MLB payroll to a powerless first baseman who may crater this year with the bat.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 15, 2010 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
A platoon of Bowker and Pearce at 1B...not Jones
Bowker’s killed rh’ed pitching thru out AAA…plus 2 short stints…‘08 he hit .266..Hr/ 29 AB’s in a tough park on lefties.
Pearce has very limited numbers in the bigs vs lefties but has hit very well in AAA and 3 years of ,321/,268/.294 avg’s w/ HR / 24 AB’s
Bowker is an above average 1B…Pearce I dont know…but these are guys who are controlled for several years cheap…who may or may not “make it”…Bowker’s got a very good swing…I feel he’d be a pleasant surprise and that he’s in his prime.
Overbay…243 combined…HR / 27 AB’s in a stadium that has made Hill, Scutero home run hitters at first glance…that stadium is the homerdome of all stadiums…Overbay will be lucky to hit 15 here…
Not only will Bowker/Pearce out hit/ out produce an aging/ numbers inflated by ball park Overbay…they would do it cheaper plus w/ the upside that they’re our property cheap for future years and in Bowkers particular case…he’s been a top producer regularly at AAA, given an everyday chance to play is a NO-BRAINER unless we did sign a TRUE upgrade…aka D Lee.
and overbay dominated the minors too. big deal.
pearce has had chances, and its going to be up to him to earn another shot. if the pirates truly didnt want him, why get the extra option year??? it makes no sense to have a player on your team and hope he fails.
Numbers tell the story
Overbay’s numbers aren’t an upgrade at all…esp if a platoon was the idea…
Common sense (NH’s arch enemy) has to factor in…Overbay played in a stadium that makes most the team HR hitters…Scutero made nice change on that premise…
I’d figure we are still looking for a possible 1B for the next few years…Overbay isn’t it…I cant tell you if Bowker could be it…everyone loved the :Lopez deal…well it appears Lopez was another freebee by NH…
E Durazo hit .400 in Overbay’s literal field of homer dreams…Overbay hit well…that was 10 years ago? 15?…
I dont hate Overbay personally…it’s pretty obvious he’s on a downslope and IMO…Bowker will out hit him if afforded the same chances…JMHO…if Bowker’s hits like his AAA numbers and his true swing suggest…he’s literally a valuable piece for several years…
I’m more upset about Bowker who’s out of options more so Pearce who still has a year…Bowker was a pretty hot item a few years ago…if Bowker completely stinks in spring…so be it but at the minimum, there should be an open competition…and NH doesn’t believe in that…he doesn’t believe in a mgr making any decisions either…he’s already telling us who’s playing where…
THAT"S NOT HIS JOB…he’s terrible at talent evaluation…which is why his teams have been a disaster.
you have no idea what you are talking about
you have NOT seen pearce in a fricken platoon. you have no idea what his numbers would be over a full season, especially in a PLATOON. since hes right handed, he would get much less ABs that the lefty in said platoon.
the only reason you come on here is to bash NH. you probably blasted him for trading lopez to GET bowker. for trading dotel for a never was and a pothead.
and overbay dominated the minors too. big deal.
Sure, if by “dominated” you mean “put up solid but unexceptional numbers as an overaged player in a succession of great hitting environments”.
numbers are numbers, and he did dominate
hes a decent hitter, and good fielder, hes left handed, and hes cheap. did i want the pirates to sign him, no. will i root for him as a pirate, hell f-ing yes!!!
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
I think we simply disagree about 2011. I don’t care if the Pirates win 50 games or 75 games this summer. I want to see them give playing time to those who will be there when the team is ready to win 90 games. It’s a pointless signing.
overbay is NOT a central piece of the future. neither is snyder. nor jones. nor diaz.
they are interchangable parts that you piece with your core unit. when we had bay and freddy, the complimentary pieces were jack, nady, mclouth, bautista, with Jack being the only one deemed a specialist. the pitching was horrible, as it was last season. we now have a young core which hopefully will be adding members to it over the next couple of seasons…. but you still need to sign some complimentary guys. and im sorry, pearce and bowker ARE complimentary guys, not part of the core, and overbay has done more than both of them put together
maybe bring back Bay
he’s done more than our complete team combined…or H Aaron,,,I wonder if Moyer can get back in time..he has more wins than our whole rotation
i say we get better and smarter fans
the kind that never played ball. if this team begins to click this year, i dont want to see you jumping on the bandwagon, cuz im a gonna push you off it.
bwahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa
i for one am officially underwhelmed by the offseason moves,
that does not mean i will not be pulling for them come spring.
by karreemofwheat on Dec 15, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
No...it's not a bad thing.
It’s nothing. It’s no significant improvement over what we had available on the roster a month ago.
Yes it is...
I think JDLR plus the players that were replaced would be worth more WAR than the group we signed.
Not for nothing
It’s December 14th. There are two months until spring training. One thing no one here knows is what other plans are in the works that may shed a different light on this signing by the time the season rolls around.
Or maybe there won’t be and the bitching will be well justified. Point is complaining/cheering now doesn’t mean anything.
I remain, as always, cautiously optimistic.
by Blyleven Curve Ball on Dec 14, 2010 6:54 PM EST reply actions
Attaboy, Bly!
I’ve been saying that since the Winter Meetings started, while [some] people have gone off on tangents about things that were rumoured, and never even came to fruition.
I share your cautious optimism.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
i hope Overbay has a career year
I dont remember this kind of commenting effort spent on anything… maaaybe the draft but that was over a longer period of time and obviously much more was going on…
i hope overbay has an average season, not a career year
so when we let him go, the people in here wont cry that WE LET HIM GO!!!!!! arghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Well, of course.
I’m sure everybody is, even the people who think it was a stupid move. For better or worse, he’s one of us now.
Then he'd better get an avatar, dammit
Do you think he’ll use “Overpay” as his pseud, or would he take himself too seriously for that?
I think most of our anger ...
is that this reminds us of the Sean Casey move.
An older player. Good defense. No power. Past his prime. Overpriced.
It just seems like a bad use of resources.
overbay has power, casey never did
casey was from Pitt, kind of a dumb “lets bring him home” bit… hits the first homer in PNC Park, then disappears for good.
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
Sean Casey had a career OPS of .814.
Lyle Overbay has a career OPS of .805.
Casey is an OPS of +109, Overbay is an OPS of +111.
They seem like the same guy to me.
and casey completely died off at a younger age than overbay
by the time he was 30, his power was gone. by 33, he was out of baseball. by the time we got casey, his bat was toast. his glove was still very good though.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
not like casey
dont turn this around, you know overbay has been consistantly BLAH for a few years now… lol
Like I said above:
We’ll have some great threads next October discussing the 2011 performances of Overbay, Diaz, Jones, Pearce and Bowker.
I cannot wait for those game threads.
They’re my best source for humor during the summer.
by Suffering Buc on Dec 14, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.......
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Dec 14, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Cheers.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
DOUBLE SECRET probation!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2010 1:23 AM EST up reply actions
Again, the MLB market is more than just Zips projections. Like I said in the Cedeno thread regarding him, there are 29 teams who would not start Pearce, Bowker, or Jones at first base.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 7:42 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I couldn’t care less about ZIPS projections. I do care when a 105-loss team that’s supposedly preparing for the future spends good money on a 34-year-old first baseman who has never hit 25 home runs in a season. I also care that the team, apparently, plans to play him against left-handed pitching when his track record — not some ZIPS projection — shows he can’t hit them.
The only rationale for this move (and the others this winter) is that Huntington is concerned that another 100-loss season, even if it helps lay the groundwork for future success, will cost him his job. It’s abundantly clear that the front office considers it important to win 65-to-75 games next season, so the average fan will think true progress is being made.
Unfortunately, such “progress” usually doesn’t signal anything. Downtrodden teams like the Braves and Rays didn’t take baby steps toward greatness. The improvement was quick and dramatic.
But, whatever, I hope Overbay has a good season. I’d rather be wrong than right on this one.
I'm afraid you are right
That is what I immediately thought. He’s in DL survivor mode.
I really hope not.
But I think the team is trying to get to 70 wins to tout the impressive progress.
This reeks of survival mode...
I’m trying to remain impartial to see what else plays out this offseason but I have to say that I have lost a lot of confidence in NH so far. I was skeptical of his ability to put a major league roster together but I also realized that his past signings had basically been role players. This year was his 1st real attempt to acquire major league players in an attempt to win games and I am extremely underwhelmed. He hasn’t added much offense and has done little to improve the defense…IMO.
Maybe this is a misguided attempt to bring in a few mediocre vets to win a handful more games in 2011.
Of course you should be “underwhelmed” by the moves. Were you expecting much more? Yeah, it would’ve been nice to get a better SS, but the pickings were mighty slim and each individual carried plenty of ? marks before going elsewhere.
Who exactly are the new Buccos blocking? What youngsters at the MLB level or pushing up through the minors are going to be blocked from displaying their talents-or lack thereof-next season?
The biggest problem here is very simple: There are more than a few here who spend so much time with their numbers/projections that they fall in love with their “facts.” They don’t want to deal with perceived hyperbole, they just want the facts, ma’am. (Yet they will also grudgingly admit from time to time that their facts are plenty fallible.)
Again, I’m not particularly enthused by what has happened this offseason, either. But some having a sh*t fit because young MLB “luminaries” like Milledge and Pearce won’t/probably won’t get another chance to be regulars/semi-regulars in Pittsburgh.
Put me down as one not losing any sleep over it.
This is not DL survival mode but prioritizing defense. The debate should be whether Overbay’s improved defense (including how it might impact the other infielders) is worth the extra money and the lost opportunity to evaluate Bowker (as Mark said, Pearce can play his way to a platoon role and then impress from there).
The Pirates have below average defense at second, third and short. If the Pirates were prioritizing defense, they would start at those key positions — not first base, which is very much an offense-first position. Good D at first should be a bonus, not a priority. And, by the way, Pearce plays a pretty good first base.
Defensive improvement still counts, even if it’s at first base. Compared to Jones, Overbay is any where from 8 runs (UZR), 15 runs (DRS), or 20 runs (Total Zone) better than Jones defensively at first base.
Admittedly, TZ is the least advanced of the defensive metrics, but its possible the Bucs’ internal defensive figures are more similar to the latter figures.
I’ll put up a blog post on this later if I get the time. Steve Pearce is too short to be a good receiver at first, and he’s a non-tender candidate after the 2011 season, so he’s not a part of the future. I wouldn’t have been mad had they given him another shot, but I’m pleased they went for an actual upgrade at the first sack, although I would have preferred a shortstop or Berkman/Lee who wouldn’t sign here.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 15, 2010 10:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hitting the open market would expose a lot of our guys (Pearce, Jones) as fringe or non-major leaguers. Just like Milledge and LaRoche struggling to find a MLB spot.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 7:46 PM EST via mobile reply actions
So I wanted the Pirates to address infield defense this offseason
And they did.
By signing a 34-year old first baseman with a 107 OPS+.
Be careful what you wish for, I guess.
Sigh.
would you rather have a 29 year old first baseman with a 95 OPS+
by SHOOTFOR2010 on Dec 14, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
are you blaming nutting for not getting Hardy??
Hardy wasn’t a free agent. We weren’t willing to meet Minnesota’s asking price and Baltimore was. I am sure next year we will have JJ Hardy Part III when he is a free agent.
by SHOOTFOR2010 on Dec 14, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
Did Hanley Ramirez change his name to JJ Hardy? That’s the only explanation I can see for people wanting him so bad, but reacting to the signing of this guy like NH set badgers loose in a childrens’ hospital
To be fair
that was a pretty bad call on NH’s part. I know that some advanced stats suggest that badgers are great for sick kids, but it’s an awfully risky move in a major league hospital.
I would have tried it out in Bradenton first.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 15, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
Well, After 620 comments and counting ...
All I can say is that the chart will set you free.
Right field and 1B were gaping sucking chest wounds on the last chart. With what we had in-house, the best choice was to sew together Bowker (going?), Pearce (going?), and Clement (gone). As much as I would like Pearce and Bowker to get a shot, they’re not young guns anymore.
For the next two years RF is fixed and 1B is fixed for one year.
This is not a bad thing – Overbay is not blocking a Zeus-like Craig Wilson, of the Sampson-like locks of Adonis-like golden hair. The road is clear for Pedro to move on over to 1B next year.
Why don't you knock it off with them negative vibes?!
Why my links never post
I’ll never know – http://www.bucsdugout.com/2010/11/3/1792704/the-charts-are-back.
Why don't you knock it off with them negative vibes?!
May just be that one ...
… defensive change affects the entire infield. Baseball Reference. com ranked Garrett Jones’s defense at first base 130th out of 131 players that manned that position during the 2010 season. Will the pitchers be more confident that a pick-off throw will not get to the seats that holding runners on will be more effective? Will the catchers be more likely to gun out base stealers, if the runner is held more closely? Will the infielders be more likely to snap off a quick throw if confident the first baseman can save an occassional bad one? Also, Overbay has shown good patience at the plate by walking an average of 70 times in each of the past three seasons. Could our other guys learn from that?
An “OH NO!!!” guy looking for positives.
I guess that the Pirates FO is getting better in one respect.
Earlier this year it took the Pirates 6 months to announce the extensions for JR and NH. This time it only took a week from when Overbay agreed with the Pirates to announce it.
LangoschMLB Jenifer Langosch
The #Pirates and Lyle Overbay agreed to terms last Tuesday at the Winter Meetings. It took until today for the deal to be finalized.
I think she meant Diaz.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 14, 2010 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
I think she meant Diaz -
Particularly since Overbay had lunch with Hurdle today and that clinched the deal, according to Biertempfle:
Hurdle helped seal Overbay deal
December 14th, 2010
Before flying back to his home near Seattle, Lyle Overbay had lunch this afternoon in Pittsburgh with new manager Clint Hurdle. Overbay came away from the meeting convinced he’d made the right decision by signing a one-year, $5 million contract with the Pirates.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2010 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
But I could be wrong.
Damn, that quote lined up right in preview…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
I was wrong, after all.
Biertempfle has it this morning:
The Pirates were aggressive in their pursuit of Overbay and actually reached a contract agreement about a week ago.
“It’s been hard keeping quiet about it until everything was final,” Overbay said.
Mea culpa.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
LOL
NH too busy fielding calls from Philly…begging him to take over at GM…
If Pgh would’a just let him out of that contract…Philly offered big to get him…Owner is just fascinated by Neils work this off season…NH was planning on taking Overbay w/ him to Philly if released by Pgh…Howard has all the makings of a LF’er..now that werth is gone.
rumor has it
the yanks and red sox were in the action too…
NH had you in the contract,,,your face on his homepage of the NH fan club…
Steinbrenner is so intrigued by NH’s signings that he couldn’t help himself and began begging for his help…when told the bucs wouldn’t release him, he contemplated selling the team…
NH had the idea of telling Jeter to fly a kite, bring in Overbay and move bigTex to SS…Tex played infield his whole life you know.
Tex and Jeter would probably have the same range… its not too out of the question IMHO
by tsbulldawgs64 on Dec 16, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Chuck Finder would not have missed the story
He would have been publishing an article on Cliff Lee’s imminent signing last week.
Positive
I like the fact that Doumit seems to be one step closer to hitting the road. I can not take watching him butcher balls in right or at first base. He really would not be able to handle either position properly in a High School game never mind the majors. You want to build a team, so you need to get rid of dead weight like Doumit. I hope Overbay is a hard worker along with some of the pitchers brought in. I don’t think its wise to run guys out there just for the sake of playing them. The stats on the guys we brought in are mediocre at best, but what are they replacing. We have no other legitimate options. If your only going to offer one or two year deals, your going to get these type of low end free agents for the most part. Pearce needs to prove he can stay healthy for an entire year to even be considered as an everyday player. He will be given his opportunities of the bench and I’m sure he’ll get plenty of AB’s if he produces.
Poor Steve Pearce...
That guy has just gotten screwed at every single stop of his career.
www.stealingfirstbase.com
He’s too short for first, and can’t hit major-league off-speed stuff. I feel bad for him, but when your skill set is that limited, it’s a tough road in the majors.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 14, 2010 11:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He’s too short for first…
Matt Stairs is two inches shorter than Pearce, and that didn’t stop him from having an 18-year (and counting!) ML career as a 1B/OF. Not to mention that Pearce grades out as a plus defender in spite of his height…
and can’t hit major-league off-speed stuff
This was true three years ago, but if you check the PitchFX data, he’s actually done quite well against off-speed stuff since then. It’s probably the biggest area of improvement in his game.
Wasn’t Stairs a minus on defense? Doesn’t mean he was any good. Can Steve Pearce hit like Matt Stairs and Prince Fielder, two other short first baseman?
Sample Size alert: Pearce had only played 50-some games at first. Even Jones has put up 150, so we can at least make a guess that he’s bad.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 16, 2010 2:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sample Size alert: Pearce had only played 50-some games at first.
Why are you pretending that his entire minor league career doesn’t exist? We’ve seen Pearce play first base for six years now – we know he can do it. It’s not like he’s some 5’11" high school kid with no track record that we’re discussing for the draft…
Wasn’t Stairs a minus on defense? Doesn’t mean he was any good.
This is stupid. Pearce is 5’11". You want some good-fielding 1Bs of comparable size? How about 5’10" Steve Garvey? And both Keith Hernandez and Don Mattingly were only 6’0"… are you seriously trying to argue that one inch of height is a deal-breaker as far as 1B defense is concerned?
youre comparing pearce to guys from another generation?
when the athletes are way bigger, stronger and faster NOW.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Compare
pitching speeds from the 70’s to now.
They ain’t much different.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 18, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
once again, how has Pearce been screwed???
you actually believe that the FO would hate to see him succeed? that they secretly want the extra option year so they can keep the man down?? thats ridiculous!!!
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think it's that deep
It’s just that both Littlefield and NH have continually signed guys to block him without giving him one legitimate shot. I don’t think there’s some nefarious plot at hand, I just think that if I were Pearce I’d be really upset that I was raking in AAA every single year and never being given an extended look.
www.stealingfirstbase.com
raking every single year?
if you say so. for the record, overbay’s minors numbers were off the chart.
by white angus on Dec 15, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
Overbay is a long way removed from the minor leagues at this point.
And, yeah, I’d say Steve Pearce raked every year at AAA with the exception of 2008.
2007: .320/.366/.557, 6 HR, 131 PA
2008: .251/.312/.417, 12 HR, 433 PA
2009: .286/.373/.502, 13 HR, 317 PA
2010: .326/.424/.535, 3 HR, 158 PA
He never put up gaudy home run numbers, but he definitely raked in terms of extra-base power and ability to get on. The fact that he was constantly jerked up to the majors where he sat on the bench for most of his time, then sent back down surely didn’t help his development.
Am I saying Pearce could have been a superstar? No. But a solid player, at least as a platoon piece? Yeah.
www.stealingfirstbase.com
for the record, overbay’s minors numbers were off the chart.
Because he was playing on the moon, more or less. Overbay didn’t have the ability to assign himself to play against age-appropriate competition in a non-extreme environment, of course, but his raw minor league numbers are much less impressive once you place them within the proper context.
then how come Overbay has lasted in MLB a decade
while guys like Pearce cant crack the lineup of the worst team in baseball??? oh yeah, cuz the front office wants to screw him over.
by white angus on Dec 18, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
angus, my friend -
it seems you’ve spent most of your Saturday bashing.
;-)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 18, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously ...
I think Angus got the brush-off from a Latrobe barfly.
Don't touch me.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 19, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Last year
was the first year that Pearce hit all the important metrics I look for in AAA to best predict MLB success. And he did very well, as he was getting a chance to start every day. Then, of course, he got injured and went down for the year. Sucks, but he did have the chance.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 15, 2010 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
I'll pass on reading .5M comments
It’s nearly 11:30pm….
It’s clear to me that the Diaz and Overbay signings are Drive for 75 moves which, fortunately or not, will probably fail in any case.
I suppose signing players like Overbay make sense to the suits in the corporate office. They do need to throw red meat to the fans who crave it and to the MLBPA which wants its members to earn as much as they can. The corporate office probably also wants the team to show some improvement if only to quiet the fans who mindless call for their destruction.
Yet, I’d rather see Bowker/Diaz play RF and Pearce/Jones play 1B. Signing Diaz and Overbay will provide, if successful, a phantom improvement to the team. I’d rather the Pirates lose 100 games if the alternatives a 9 game phantom improvement.
s.zielinski
I see it more like a move to
Keep the MLBPA off our asses. I think the FO knows next year is a wash, doesn’t believe in Pearce, Bowker or Jones as long term solutions and decided to try and win more and keep the hounds of the MLBPA at bay.
I agree with one thing we were gonna suck big time with or w/o Overbay, so I guess if this is a bridge to our next move I am ok
by eyeofhorus777 on Dec 14, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
completely misguided and wrong
by signing Diaz and Overbay the team has improved WITHOUT hurting the core players nor by giving up ANY top prospects… in fact, NO PROSPECTS HAVE BEEN LOST.
by white angus on Dec 14, 2010 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed completely angus!!!
I can’t believe that people would rather see a bad platoon of Pearce/Jones at first, than a solid major leaguer like Overbay over at first everyday.
I’m thinking too many people go to sleep with visions of Adrian Beltre & Cliff Lee dancing in their heads, and any lesser signings are seen as big disappointments. As I mentioned below, and was you mentioned, the core players haven’t been hurt by these signings. In fact, I believe this IMPROVES part of the core. If Alvarez, for instance, has an Overbay over there at first and on a consistent basis, I would imagine the confidence in his defense will improve because he can be more relaxed, same with Walker.
It may need to be restated again…..for those that may have a hard time understanding the Pirates’ philosophy here. Get it out of your mind that the Pirates will sign All-Star Free Agents. The Pirates All-Stars will always be homegrown (or perhaps acquired in a trade.) All Free Agent signings will be to solidify the roster or to solidify a particular position on the diamond. I think the Diaz/Overbay/Correia signings do that. The Olsen signing may also do that, but it is definitely a low risk signing that, if nothing else, increases depth & options amongst the pitching staff.
My Take
I like it and it certainly doesnt hurt the team. Would I have preferred Cantu or Lee (Not gonna happen I know), yea. But its not the worst thing in the world. I think we all grew fond of GJ two seasons ago and may have an inflated view of what he can do. Overbay is going to eb solid and fetch us a prospect at the deadline if he pans out as expected (which theres a good likelihood)
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Tor tried like heck to trade him last season
Nobody wanted him…nobody!!
If a 34 yr old .243 in a HR’er park is an upgrade…we are really screwed.
If a 34 year old .243 is our “aggressive” mode in free agency…we are really screwed
If NH believes other GM’s are “intrigued” by his incredible GM’ing…he’s in his own little fantasy world and we are screwed.
I imagine NH is quite surprised the yanks or r sox aren’t knocking on his door about replacing their GM’s…probably blames the secretary for not giving him the messages.
In NH’s 3 years…he upgraded our 1B position from Laroche to Overbay…he is a genius I guess.
Boy…are we screwed!!!
I really like this signing.....
I know that it may not be a very popular opinion, but I like the Overbay signing. The Pirates talked about improving their defense, which they just did with getting Overbay.
I certainly will feel more comfortable with Overbay being on the receiving end of throws from Alvarez at 3rd & Walker at 2nd for a year, than seeing any combination of Pearce/Bowker/Jones over there. I assume that part of this deal is to give Alvarez and Walker an improved comfort level out there in the infield, and I’m all for it.
It’s been funny to read some people getting very upset with these moves. The Pirates, even if no other moves are to be made (but I think there will be) are a better team today than when the season ended. I know, for some, they want superstars signed or drastic improvement, but guys like Overbay/Diaz/Correia are solid MAJOR leaguers. And even a SMALL improvement, is stilll an improvement. Not to knock guys like Steve Pearce, but he certainly has done anything at the major league level to warrant more consideration (a la Milledge, Little LaRoche, Moss, etc.) I’d rather have established major leaguers at those positions, especially when they aren’t blocking any good prospects. As long as Alvarez, Walker, Tabata and McCutchen are playing every day and not blocked, then I good to see some established guys in the other spots.
It’s the same way I felt about the Correia signing. I know many are worried about Lincoln/Morton losing starts, but I think they will be given multiple opportunities to start during this season (unless 1 or both moves to the bullpen), and until they take advantage of said opportunities, the Pirates should continue to bring guys in.
On the flip side....
I think that Jones will do horribly in a part-time role, and I’m sad about that. I know many are enamored with the idea of platooning at as many positions, as possible. But, I think platoons are terrible ideas, except in very special circumstances.
Putting an aging vet into a platoon is fine, because that vet already knows how to prepare himself.
Putting someone like Jones into a platoon, is a very BAD idea. I think he’ll struggle immensely without the constant daily repetitions. I know people like to look at a hitter’s splits and just assume that he’ll continue those kinds of numbers in a part-time role, but that totally undervalues the rhythm that is gained from playing every day. I expect Jones to have a terrible year and drop off of the Pirates radar. Which is sad, because I’ve become a big fan of his.
Jones struggled with daily repetitions in the second half…Can’t do much worse than he did July-September.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 15, 2010 8:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed—they went into the offseason saying they needed to improve the infield defense. My guess is that they wanted to do that while leaving Walker at 2B and Alvarez at 3B for another season. I think it’s easy to make a case that Overbay was the best option for upgrading the defense at 1B (good range, can handle bad throws, and low-cost).
The Pirates, even if no other moves are to be made (but I think there will be) are a better team today than when the season ended.
I am not at all convinced that this is true. The only unambiguous improvement the team has made so far is Rodriguez, and how much difference is it reasonable to expect a UT IF to make?
Really???
The lineup that finished out the year had Doumit in RF, LaRoche at 3B, Jaramillo catching, Brian Burres as the starting pitcher, Brandon Moss as the first guy off of the bench and Steven Jackson closing out the game. Do you seriously think the team that opens 2011 isn’t better than that??
Regarding the acquistiions….the way I see it
Diaz is better than Milledge
Overbay is better than having Jones be the everyday 1B (and Jones/Diaz is right with Overbay at 1B is WAY better than Jones at 1B & Milledge in right)
Correia is better than Duke
Olsen & Rodriguez are better than Brian Burress & Argenis Diaz.
But, Vlad, if you disagree with that, that’s fine.
The Pearce/Bowker arguement doesn't stop there...
You now have to throw Andy Marte in the mix as I watched the kid completely destroy AAA here in Columbus. He may certainly demolish it again this year… IF he doesn’t make the squad over Bowker/Pearce.
What a fabulous collection of spare parts we have accumulated
Just think, we can now deal a whole bunch of them at the deadline and hope we catch lightning in a bottle on one of the returns.
This isn’t a team. It is a roster assembled by a chimpanzee playing fantasy baseball who threw darts to choose his players.
Yuk. And the worst part is Overbay’s unsettling resemblance to Jeromy Burnitz.
We'll see soon how the FO is thinking.
The 40 man roster is at 40…without Correia. So there will need to be a move when his contract is finalized. While I expect it will be a pitcher…as there aren’t many position players to slice…I could be wrong.
Nice catch
I bet they’d love to get a deal done for Doumit before they have to cut anyone else, though.
Worth noting
Overbay is quoted in today’s paper specifically talking about covering more ground towards 2B. Given Walker’s weakness with both going up the middle and turning the DP (although the latter improved over the year), positioning him another step or two to his right should have significant knock-on effects.
Probably not a big deal, but Overbay (should) help one of our two weak IF links in addition to his own direct upgrade at 1B.
Former >30ish Pirate FA "Boppers" the year before
FA “Boppers” HR RBI AVG OBP SLG OPS
J. BERNITZ 24 87 .258 .322 .435 .757
D. BELL 18 69 .266 .348 .425 .773
L.OVERBAY 20 67 .243 .329 .433 .762
’Nuff said?
Oh, let's get this to 900 comments...
This is neither a dumb signing or a “drive for seventy-five.”
The time horizon for getting to a winning record wasn’t next year, anyway. At best, we get to .500 in 2012. The horizon for competing for the NL Central title is 2012 (if we’re lucky) to 2014, when all of our current core players are at their peak and when we get significant reserves in the form of an improved pitching staff.
The means of getting there is keeping our core players whilst protecting our up-and-coming prospects. Free agent signings and trades must first do no harm to these groups.
Joe Randa was a “ROAD” player (retired on active duty) blocking Sanchez. Sean Casey at least gave us an honest effort, but Craig Wilson had proven that he could succeed, and maybe thrve, at the ML-level. Neither Bowker nor Pearce have done so. Honestly, we do not have a legitimate prospect for right field or 1B for at least two years.
So tell me again how we’d rather have a gaping chest wound (an unproven Pearce or Bowker) or an ugly baby (No-mitt Doumit) at either 1st or RF instead of Diaz and Overbay? I’m just not buying it that these signings are the end of the world.
Come on people, calm down, get ahold of yourself.
Why don't you knock it off with them negative vibes?!
No one has said end of the world
My argument is that it is a poor use of resources to sign one of the poorest offensive 1b in baseball over the past few years.
And an aging declining one at that.
... but still better than our in-house options
i know that debatable, but saying a platoon of pearce/bowker is better is risky because you have no proof- just a gamble.
If it's a modest upgrade ...
is that the best way to spend $5 million.
I don’t think so. They’ll lose nearly 95 games with him. They would have lost that many without him.
Defense suddenly doesn’t matter. Forgery that the metrics have Overbay between 8-22 runs better using career figures than Jones. Jones’ second half isn’t important, either. We also need to rely on Pearce, who can’t stay healthy and is probably too short to play first base anyway. We need to ignore a lot of things to make this into a bad signing.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 16, 2010 9:16 AM EST via mobile reply actions
And...
being 8-22 runs better than Jones is still a below average 1B. So, I guess we can ignore that, too.
Depends on what side of the range he is on. If he’s closer to 20 R better than Jones, that’s basically an average 1B. It depends on the reading of the defensive stats the Pirates use internally. UZR difference between the two is on the short end of that range (closer to 10 R), but Bucs internal metrics may see more improvement.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 16, 2010 9:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think it’s more 1-1.5 wins (10-15 runs ). 22 runs defensively is more the absolute max.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 16, 2010 11:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well, since baseball doesn't use fractions
I’ll assume one. And if he has an elite year two.
Not how I’d spend the money.
I don't think, Adam
Let’s assume he is 22 runs better than Jones.
I don’t think it’s that high. But I’ll concede it.
It still makes the Pirates the worst defensive team in baseball by a wide margin.
And it’s not going to do more than marginally increase the number of wins.
Defense does matter. But $5 million expenditures need to do more than add one win to the total when you are the Bucs.
The money could have been used much more efficiently.
How
How would you have spent the money?
5 mill is not exactly blowing the budget at the ML level now
by tsbulldawgs64 on Dec 16, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
Well ...
First, I’d put Walker at a position he’s shown he can play: 3b.
Then I’d move Pedro to a position where he’d hurt us less: 1b.
Then I’d sign an Orlando Hudson type to play 2b.
I think Hudson would have been a far better use of $5 million than Overbay.
We all know
that that’s the optimal positioning.
We also know that’s not gonna happen this year.
So what do we do to improve THIS year?
What we’ve done.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 16, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
$5M for one win??
so to get to 81 wins…we need to win 24 more games…X5 = $120M more than our $40M payroll. The only teams that spend that much (over $150M) for a .500 club are the Mets and the Cubs.
That’s what the market is, though. 1 win for $4 million is the market price. If the Pirates internal defensive stats think he’s more than a 10 run improvement, they got their moneys worth. If he’s just + 10 compared to what we have, its a slight overpayment but nothing awful.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 16, 2010 11:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Even at $4M...
that’s almost $100M more for us. Nutting is going to assume a payroll worth $140M?? And I am crazy??
Defense suddenly doesn’t matter. Forgery that the metrics have Overbay between 8-22 runs better using career figures than Jones.
Surely the best basis of comparison when analyzing Overbay and Pearce…
M yanalysis of that is Pearce is 5’6’’ and should be in the outfield or vs lefties at first at the absolute max, unless we want a lot of throwing errors.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 16, 2010 2:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
M yanalysis of that is Pearce is 5’6’’
That’s an interesting theory. How, then, do you explain this photo?
Left to right, that’s Andy LaRoche, Freddy Sanchez, and Steve Pearce, standing upright side-by-side on level ground. LaRoche is listed at 6’1", Pearce at 5’11", and Freddy at 5’10". If Pearce actually were significantly shorter than his listed height, he’d be significantly shorter than both LaRoche and Freddy. Which he quite plainly isn’t.
Or are their listed heights grossly exaggerated, too? How far does this conspiracy go?
How, then, do you explain this photo?
Wait…is that Frodo, Sam and Merry?
by MarkInDallas on Dec 17, 2010 3:49 AM EST up reply actions
Adam
That may be the market rate. But the Pirates can’t pay the market rate. The Yankees can. The Phillies can.
The Bucs need to be creative and spend their resources on better options than Overbay.
Seriously, if DL were still here. Don’t you think he’d love the signing. The parallels between him and Casey are frightening.
Almost if not all 30 teams have signed a free agent, so I guess they’re all making “DL moves”.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 16, 2010 12:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No
Some of them are actually signing free agents who make sense.
DL moves are older, declining free agents signed for decent money who really aren’t very good.
See Burnitz, Stynes and Randa as examples.
1000
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 16, 2010 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
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