Pirates Sign Josh Fields
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 20, 2010 3:38 PM EST
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PrintThe Pirates have signed Josh Fields to a minor-league deal, the team tweets. Fields plays third and the outfield and looks like pretty pure AAA fodder, although he's managed about 800 career plate appearances with the White Sox and Royals. He missed much of the 2010 season after having hip surgery. He has struggled to hit for average in the big leagues, doesn't have overly impressive AAA numbers and apparently isn't much with the glove. He has a bit of home-run power, but that's about it. If he ends up in Pittsburgh this year, that's a bad sign.
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hmmm
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/fieldjo02.shtml
- 28 years old
- plays 3B and some outfield
- 7th in RoY voting in 2007 with 23 HR and a 101 OPS+, but exactly 0 WAR that year
- 119 OPS+ last year for KC in 50 AB, but again 0 WAR due to poor defense
I sure hope the Pirates view him as an organizational player
Not necessarily. If he’s better than Andy Marte, he should make the team.
by Suffering Buc on Dec 20, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree
He had a terrific bat his rookie year.
He’s not an elite defensive player.
But he can play outfield. He is below average at 3b.
But he’s quite an upgrade over what we’ve had on the bench in the past.
It’s a nice sign on a minor league deal.
we'll have to agree to disagree
but I think all of us can agree that Marte or Fields receiving more than a handful of starts at 3B in Pittsburgh would be disastrous, given the incumbent’s bat
Fields and Marte ...
both are former top prospects who could be useful utility guys, in my opinion.
it would be disastrous because ALVAREZ would be out...
are we supposed to sign a star backup or something?
Or ...
we are playing against an elite LHP and it’s probably a good idea to give Pedro the day off.
they are backups at most!!!
who cares if its marte or fields??? alvarez, overbay and walker are the starters. its not a bad thing if marter or fields is starting, its a bad thing because Pedro would be hurt. are we gonna trade for longoria and put him as a backup or something?
Fields has way more than back-up potential
He could eventually be our starting RF.
In 796 PA, he has 25 and 34 HRs for an ops of .724. That’s not your average non-roster guy.
Overbay has zero upside. He’s a mediocre MLB player.
I’m much more excited about Fields than Overbay.
He could eventually be our starting RF.
Gack. 86 career OPS+ with undistinguished defense – isn’t that why we got rid of Milledge?
Vlad
I’m just saying with his injury history that there is still upside from my perspective.
I could easily see him being part of a platoon and bench options.
And yes, I think he would do better at that than Lastings (minus the defense).
But I do think Fields has more potential with the bat than he has shown so far.
who cares if its marte or fields???
I care. Teams need to turn to backups after the unexpected failure of starters all the time. Look at Iwamura last year, for example…
then who you expect to get? as a backup? making backup money?
esteban german? craig counsell?
by white angus on Dec 21, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
Among good-hit, no-field types...
…Jesus Guzman was probably the best guy on the market.
I have no problem with bringing in Marte as a backup 3B candidate, although I don’t think he has as much upside as some other people on this site think. Fields would be problematic as a potential 3B in that he can’t really field the position, though he’s fine as a LF/RF NRI.
even though he has benefited from those same hitter friendly parks as overbay
damnit, i thought i wasnt going to argue.
Fresno is PCL, so it's friendly, but not crazy.
And if we got Overbay for a minor league deal and a NRI, I would’ve been a lot more positive about that signing.
I don't think he can play 3b either
Unless you are consider it in a DY way.
But I do think he would be a reasonable 1b, RF options.
I think he’s an interesting NRI if he gets healthy.
Yeah, Guzman's shaky at best at 3B.
As a player, his skill package is similar to that of Fields, though on the whole I think he’s more talented. Younger, less service time, better pure hitter (look at the contact rate), has a decent amount of experience at 1B, can play 2B in an emergency, etc.
If we wanted a backup 3B, the Astros are supposedly trying to unload Jeff Keppinger for financial reasons. He’s only due $1.15M this year, and if they didn’t want much back in return, he’d be a good UT IF.
[Incidentally, Houston’s also trying to move Matt Lindstrom, for the same reason. He seems like a Huntington kind of guy, and would be a decent bounceback candidate for 2011.]
his glove must be lead
those are decent numbers for a rookie and still 0 WAR.
So ...
Josh Fields badly?
(Well, SOMEbody had to type it.)
by bucdaddy on Dec 22, 2010 1:32 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Hiss...
boo.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 22, 2010 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
oh btw...wheres the 40 man news at?
seems real quiet, Martinez or Leroux???
Langosh tweets
that the move might not be made today, which is a surprise to me.
It is pathetic on several levels that so many of us are checking in periodically to see what happens with the roster crunch. I’m just glad I’m not the only one.
Good day.
Evidently...the answer is...
we’ll cut someone when we get damn good and ready to. The Pirates FO evidently thinks the 40 man roster is a suggestion, not a rule. They figure that the Pirates suck so bad that they should be allowed to keep an extra player.
Actually, Langosch is saying that one of the FA signings isn’t official yet so there may be no need for a move today.
If it's not official...
they probably shouldn’t have that signee on the 40 man roster on the Official Team web page.
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its too bad that NHL is taken because the National Football League has become the National Hypocrite League" Mark Schlereth
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 20, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
Me too
First I though at the beginning of the day. Then I hear when the MLB office closes, at 3:30. Still nothing.
Also, its bull@#$% that they close at 3:30. I’m here til five, and they work in baseball. Double kick in the crotch.
by Wizard of Woz on Dec 20, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
Jen Lang...
said that someone hasn’t signed something, or something. That’s the hold up.
I think Nutting is too cheap to buy ink.
by Wizard of Woz on Dec 20, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
I always thought....
he’d make it as a quarterback. He certainly had some good years at Oklahoma State.
or maybe Fields was brought in to....
play for the Pirates AND the Steelers (as a back-up to Ben)….now if he could only play goalie too?
I’d have to figure that a college quarterback is going to have pretty good arm strength on his throws from 3rd base.
Good signing by the Bucs. As typical with minor league deals, it certainly can’t hurt to bring in as many options as possible.
Now, to be fair....here's a cool one of him in a baseball uniform....
(By the way, he’s hitting a broken bat, 2-run homer in this pic!!!)
That's damn impressive
that is a level of strength very few have.
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its too bad that NHL is taken because the National Football League has become the National Hypocrite League" Mark Schlereth
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Dec 20, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
I just thought it was funny....
that when I did a quick search for Josh Fields pics, two of the first ones that I see have him breaking his bat.
Where’s pirates21 when you need some trivia? When was the last time that the Pirates had a Division I quarterback on their roster I don’t think Lars Anderson was one, was he?
I remember some people wishing to see the Pirates sign Pat White a few months ago, but the Royals got him instead.
Doing a quick search....
I had no idea that Akili Smith (then known as Kabisa Smith) spent 3 awful years in the Pirates minor league system before he went on to have 4 awful years as the QB of the Cincinnati Bengals.
Wow, a .176 batting average over 3 seasons!!
When was the last time that the Pirates had a Division I quarterback on their roster
Joe Bauserman (currently a backup for Ohio State) in 2006, IIRC.
I may be forgetting about somebody, though.
Nice!!
I had completely forgot about JR House!!!
I see he’s still plugging away at baseball. Spent 2010 at Buffalo in the Mets org. He has hit 62 home runs in 6 seasons of AAA ball!!!! (But that’s still a far cry from Garrett Jones’ 93!)
Definitely the injuries.
And the substandard treatment he received for them while in our system.
There was quite a gruesome article that ran in the P-G a few years back. House actually played with an undiagnosed torn cuff/labrum for so long that he wore a groove into the bone of his shoulder socket. He had to drastically alter his throwing slot in order to be able to deliver the ball at all. The doctors were horrified when they finally cracked open the joint and had a look.
Par for the course for the medical staff of the time, the same guys who irreversibly destroyed Jason Kendall’s thumb tendon, and allowed Pat Meares to play when he couldn’t close his hand into a fist, and who totally missed Clayton Hamilton’s broken rib (resulting in permanent disability), etc.
who in their right mind leaves baseball because of injuries
then goes to play football? injuries or not, he left baseball because he hadnt progressed like he had hoped and gave football a chance.
by white angus on Dec 21, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Even at QB
You don’t take the shoulder pounding that you do playing catcher.
You are making 400 throws a year.
In baseball, you probably throw to the pitcher or a base 130 times a game.
oh cmon guys, you know House left baseball because he felt his career had stalled with PITT
and NOT because he got screwed over either.
by white angus on Dec 21, 2010 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
He got screwed a little bit.
A team with a competent medical staff would’ve identified his shoulder problems right off the bat, before they were so serious. He was literally playing with a torn cuff/labrum for years, while the joint steadily degenerated. It’s a miracle he was able to play at all.
Not sure what that has to do...
…with what I was saying.
Surely you aren’t suggesting that players are just as likely to perform well when they’re injured as when they’re healthy?
im saying that maybe, just maybe..
he left baseball because deep down he knew he wasnt going to have a profitable career.
makes it practically certain that Pearce is headed to thebenchbeach
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 20, 2010 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe Pearce is the guy they’ll remove from the 40-man roster. He’ll get a fresh start somewhere else (or brought back on a minor league contract) and with Marte and Fields the Pirates seem to be covered with a RH option at the infield corners. In fact it’s hard to make a case for Pearce over Fields unless you think that Fields cannot play 1B at all (he’s had limited innings there).
In fact it’s hard to make a case for Pearce over Fields
Not really, no. Pearce is a significantly better hitter, and Fields is a lousy defensive 3B (enough so that I wouldn’t use him there) who’s not exactly filled with fluid grace in the OF, either.
I'm not sure I agree Pearce is significantly better
He may be more polished.
But Fields is a nice NRI guy.
You don’t get too many guys with that much upside at this price.
Oh, don't get me wrong.
I think he’s perfectly fine as a NRI, but there’s a reason that Pearce is on the 40-man and Fields isn’t (as yet, anyway).
because Fields has failed more than Pearce... for now anyway.
by white angus on Dec 21, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Vlad
I’d give that more weight if Fields hadn’t put up better MLB numbers.
Personally, I don’t think it’s close.
Pearce is a better defender. But I like Fields better long term. My opinion.
I’d give that more weight if Fields hadn’t put up better MLB numbers.
Fields, MLB, career: 86 OPS+
Pearce, MLB, career: 87 OPS+
OPS
This is one case where I look at the 2b and HRs he hit and say he has more upside than Pearce.
Again, that’s just my perspective. I’m usually an OPS guy.
But I think a look at all the numbers suggests that he could be a legit power hitter. Not likely. But possible.
Pearce has actually hit XBH at a higher rate in the majors than Fields has.
Fields hits HR at a higher rate, but he’s also spent all but 50 PA of his ML career in one of the friendliest home run parks in the majors, so that comes with a grain of salt.
Vlad
My point is that you look at his 2b and HR: He has 25 2b and 34 HR in 713 at bats. That’s a little over one full season.
I look at that and say it’s a nice upside move by NH.
Pearce, on the other hand, has 416 at bats. He has 27 2b and 8 HR.
Yes, the ball park factor is an issue.
But I think it’s a terrific NRI. I also think he has more potential than Pearce.
But that’s just my humble opinion.
Per 500 PA:
Pearce: 36 2B+3B, 10 HR
Fields: 18 2B+3B, 21 HR
So by going to Fields rather than Pearce, you’re gaining 11 HR but losing 18 2B or 3B… and that’s without accounting for park factors, which increase Fields’s HR total (albeit presumably at the cost of some doubles/triples).
Again Vlad
You can prorate the numbers.
That is certainly appropriate statistically.
I’m saying that intuitively I find Fields more interesting. I see more upside by looking at his statistics.
!0 HR at a corner position is Andy LaRoche performance.
I’m suggesting that Fields has the potential to do better.
You're welcome to your personal preferences, of course.
I just didn’t want people getting the incorrect idea that Fields was better at hitting doubles/triples than Pearce is, when the reverse is true.
I actually think that the ratio of 2B/3B to HR is a small point in Pearce’s favor, in that in general the higher that ratio is, the more remaining potential development a player has as far as HR power is concerned. It’s not a slam dunk, though, given Pearce’s age.
I'd agree
If Pearce were 21, I’d say there is considerable upside because of the 2b, 3b.
But at his age, I don’t think the power is coming. I think a platoon player is his upside.
I think a bench job is more likely.
But I do think he’s good enough to stick with someone.
Fields has had slightly better success in AAA, Pearce was much better in AA and below. No way, though, that I’d say that Field’s success is “significantly less impressive”.
The value of Fields's AAA offensive performance is similar.
But it doesn’t project forward as well as Pearce’s, due to Fields’s much higher K rate. Minor league K rate is one of the most important indicators for a young hitter – guys over 25% are usually in trouble against advanced competition.
Fields, AA, career: 28.3% K (516 AB)
Fields, AAA, career: 30.4% K (1041 AB)
Fields, MLB, career: 33.0% K (713 AB)
Pearce, AA, career: 15.5% K (290 AB)
Pearce, AAA, career: 17.6% K (910 AB)
Pearce, MLB, career: 22.4% K (371 AB)
Then we should trade Pedro?
You are right on the value of the K rate.
But power hitters are going to strike out a lot. See Dunn, Reynolds and Alvarez as examplez.
Is it a concern with Fields. Obviously, that’s way he’s a NRI.
Actually...
…Adam Dunn didn’t strike out all that much coming up through the minors. Over his entire minor league career, he was only at 22.4% K, which is part of the reason why he was able to succeed as well in the majors as he has.
Reynolds was just barely on the wrong side of the line, at 26.4% K. That’s a lower rate than Fields’s in the minors, and Reynolds’s ML Ks keep his BA low enough that he’s an unexceptional bat for his position (career 108 OPS+) in spite of 30 HR and 70 walks a year.
Almost all power hitters are going to strike out more on the ML level than non- power hitters, but minor league K rate is an extremely valuable tool in sorting the minor league power hitters who are going to hit in the majors from the minor league power hitters who are not. There are lots of highly-touted guys in both camps, but the ones over 25% K against minor league competition often turn out like Brad Eldred or Brandon Wood or Dallas McPherson.
I agree ...
but, as you know, there are exceptions.
I think Pedro will be one.
But Dunn also had some lousy K years.
Overall, you are correct. But I’m not sure Fields has enough MLB at bats to say he’s going to be an Eldred.
There are always exceptions.
Fred McGriff, for instance, was able to overcome serious contact issues in his prospect days and end up with a very nice career. I just wanted to note that the K rate is one of the main reasons (and maybe THE reason) why Fields wasn’t able to continue his minor league performances in MLB.
But I’m not sure Fields has enough MLB at bats to say he’s going to be an Eldred.
The wiseass in me is compelled to note that Fields has already had a significantly larger number of MLB at bats than Eldred had.
No problem being a wiseass
My response would be:
1. Eldred needed fewer at bats to definitely prove that he is not an MLB player.
2. Fields had had more at bats, but it’s unclear what he’s going to become. If he can learn plate discipline and improve on pitch recognition, he could be a starter. I suspect he’ll be a utility guy. But there is the real possibility that he could be headed for Japan.
In examining his numbers
He seems to me a guy that might be interesting in a platoon role. His performance against LHPs shows some promise, including the K rate last year in his September call up.
However, it’s concerning that he only had 1 walk in 50 PAs.
Pearce was able to take walks and get on base consistently in his limited time last year.
Fields definitely seems to have more HR potential, though.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 24, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
i dont think pearce was ever the prospect that josh fields was...
because of that pedigree, he will always be looked at as having the higher ceiling, like a clement. he will also be considered a bigger bust if he fails.
by white angus on Dec 21, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Really
Have you compared their numbers at the MLB level?
I like Pearce.
But he has failed far, far more than Fields has in the bigs.
By failed ...
I mean he has failed to take advantage of opportunities.
Part of it is injuries. Part of it is that he hasn’t played all that well.
Fields has been less consistent. But he did put up one really promising season. Pearce has not do that yet.
I agree that Pearce has value. But I find Fields far more interesting.
Fields has been less consistent. But he did put up one really promising season.
You’re referring to 2007? It was a decent debut, but don’t get carried away. 23 HR in 2/3 of a season or not, it was only good for a 101 OPS+. His low contact rate held him to a .244 BA, and when you couple that with a below-average walk rate, it translates into a .308 OBP.
It’s a Cory Snyder season. Which isn’t the worst thing in the world, but isn’t as valuable as it might appear at a glance, either.
Vlad
I don’t disagree with you.
I’m just saying that Fields had had one reasonable season at the MLB level.
We are still waiting for Pearce to have a comparable year.
Fields’ future, in my opinion, depends on more walks and fewer K’s. We’ll see if he can do it.
Again, I’m saying for an NRI guy I find him interesting. Much more so than a Bixler.
I’m not sure how anyone could project Pearce to be a better 3B than Fields. Basically you want a platoon partner for Overbay (though I know the plan is for Overbay to start the season as an everyday player) and a “Sunday lineup” player for Alvarez. If Fields can play 1B, then I think he’s a better option than Pearce. If Fields cannot play 1B and Pearce is healthy, then I’d go with Pearce. Personally I pull for Pearce to make it but I think his best bet is with another organization. And Fields seems to be a good option assuming he can be adequate at 1B. And I think it’s relevant that Fields finished the season with a good month while Pearce still has to show he is healthy.
And just one last comment—Fields’ career wOBA = .314; Pearce’s career wOBA = .313. I’m just not seeing the “significantly better hitter” reference to Pearce. I do agree that defense is a concern but the only evidence we have is apples vs. oranges since we’re comparing Fields at the tougher position.
I’m just not seeing the "significantly better hitter" reference to Pearce.
If you look back at the remark, you’ll see that I was referring to both players’ minor league track records. Pearce’s performance in the minors has been better, and the shape of that performance has also been more auspicious as far as suggesting future ML success (primarily due to Fields’s K rate).
I like this signing
Had a really good rookie year then suffered an injury. Last year he did good in a short stint. I think he is def a better option then Marte, but we’ll see. Doesnt hurt to see what hes got and still very young
Hmm
This better not take ABs away from my new favorite player aka Andy Marte
by omar moreno on Dec 20, 2010 6:17 PM EST via mobile reply actions
jeeeeeeeeeez, why does everyone think that every player we sign is a part of the pirate future??
its mind bottling!!!
I'm sorry...
Did you say “mind bottling”?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 21, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Just got to sit down after work
Anyone figure out how this affects our future ability to trade for LFA?
"[T]o hold the body of women in our arms is ... the one ecstasy granted to the race of men."
Joaquin Arias
I’ll be intrigued to see if NH puts in a waiver claim.
I think he’d offer Cedeno more competition for the job.
I’m not sure he’s ever gotten a chance in MLB.
I for some reason liked
Ol’ “Flood Gates” Yates…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 20, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
not Yates. noooooooooooooo
No. why neal. Why. ugh
RIP NATE. RIP TONY PLUSH.
"I'D BE A CHEF"
-TONY PLUSH
Fields always struck me...
…as a guy who had more natural ability than his in-game performances were showing. That said, at 28, he probably is what he is at this point.
He’s also yet another example of a highly-touted hitting prospect whose contact issues in the minors (he’s above the 25% K Rubicon) prevented him from becoming a solid ML bat.
Given that he was a fairly highly-touted prospect three or four years ago, there will no doubt be significant kvetching by the usual suspects about how NH picks players by looking at old BA guides.
the difference being…at least Fields has had a modicum of success at the major league level. Which puts him ahead of LaRoche, Clement, etc.
the difference being…at least Fields has had a modicum of success at the major league level. Which puts him ahead of LaRoche, Clement, etc.
By B-R WAR, Fields is below replacement level for his career (-1.3). By Fangraphs WAR, he’s above that minimal standard by the slimmest possible margin (0.1).
LaRoche ranks ahead of him by a significant amount according to both measures (-0.4 B-R, 1.2 Fangraphs).
just for giggles (and without cheating)
do you know how many of the top 100 of the 2006 BA guide have actually been drafted, traded for or signed by the Pirates. It is quite a few. To bad only one has had sustained success.
by SHOOTFOR2010 on Dec 21, 2010 6:49 AM EST reply actions
I cheated and looked....so I won't answer.
Although it’s always interesting to go back and look at those lists. For instance, Andre Ethier at #89??? There’s about 75 guys on the list that Ethier has turned out to be better than,
Scouts never liked Ethier all that much.
He’s greatly exceeded expectations in the bigs (good for him!).
Let's see...
Running down the list (without checking transactions), I come up with:
- Stephen Drew – drafted but not signed, after newly-hired DL nixed an over-slot agreement with the player
- Lastings Milledge – picked up in trade
- Andy Marte – signed as a NRI
- Andy LaRoche – picked up in trade
- Jeff Clement – picked up in trade
- Scott Olsen – signed as a ML free agent
- Neil Walker – drafted and signed by us
- Andrew McCutchen – drafted and signed by us
- Craig Hansen – picked up in trade
- Hayden Penn – claimed on waivers
- Ronny Cedeno – picked up in trade
- Tom Gorzelanny – drafted and signed by us
Did I miss anybody?
[Honorable mention for #70 Jeff Niemann, who was the centerpiece of the Rays’ Bay offer, and for #84 Justin Huber, who was sent from the Mets to the Royals in the three-way Benson trade.]
Yeah...
and everyone on that list that was acquired by Neal hasn’t amounted to squat…or hasn’t played for us yet (Olsen, Marte). The only ones with ANY success are the Littlefield draftees, Walker, Cutch and Gorzo.
So…is it the list that’s bad…or the Pirates GM??
Only two of the players on the list acquired by NH...
…came at any significant cost: LaRoche and Clement. Maybe three, if you consider Olsen’s money to be significant. The rest were throw-ins, waiver claims, or minor league signings.
Maybe 4
If you consider all the Tony Plush merchandise they lost the opportunity to sell with the Milledge trade.
I wasn’t even talking about cost…just performance.
There were 12 names on the list. Drew never signed. 3 were already here (Walker, Cutch and Gorzo). Two haven’t played yet (Olsen and Marte). That leaves 6…and they all have bombed.
Its the old "Free Sofa Principle"
If someone offers you a free sofa your first question is going to be “what’s wrong with it?”
In the end you might take it anyway because you really need that sofa but you always take it knowing that there is a strong possibility that the sleeper portion may eat people or some such thing.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 21, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
As the others have said...
…the cost of an acquisition matters when assessing its results. The expected return on marginal low-cost acquisitions is going to be lower than that on players who cost you first- or second-round draft picks (and corresponding signing bonuses).
For example, I don’t think anyone expected Ronny Cedeno to be a star for us. He was picked up to be a low-cost placeholder because we were trading away our incumbent starter and didn’t have any other internal candidates on hand, and he’s largely met those expectations.
Exactly right
I mean, it’s an obvious point, but one I think we tend to forget/underplay. The Pirates had, and continue to have, a giant organizational black hole at SS. Cedeno has plenty of flaws, but he’s a mid-pack MLB SS, one who’s still young enough that he could have a 2.5 WAR season or two in him. He’d be a terrible FA signing, and a mediocre swap for a legit prospect, but we got him, plus other interesting pieces, for a guy who was about to be gone plus a guy who’d become a liability.
All that said – and I think I’ve said this before – I do worry about whether the FO is set up to do a good job evaluating actual good major leaguers that we might want to acquire in the near future, when merely throwing shit against the wall is inadequate. NH showed me something with the bullpen last year, but this year’s bullpen will be harder to fill (Yates again!), and the only offseason signing I actually like is Correia. IOW, it’s possible that NH might be one of those guys who needs to be replaced when a team goes from rebuilding to contending. Pure speculation, and I don’t know if I believe it, but there’s something there.
Alas,
“NH bashers” and “paying attention” are mutually exclusive terms.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 22, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Not really fair to blame NH for his draftees not playing in MLB
When only a handful of guys from his first class (Pedro’s) are in the bigs.
Not a legitimate comparison, in my opinion.
WOW
The 2001 draft was amazing! Even didn’t signed Jeremy Guthrie and Stephen Drew. Who was the scouting director that year?
Mickey White
Our only decent scouting director of the last 25 years (with the possible exception of the current guy, on whom the jury is still out).
Mickey
He was a strange guy, from what I’ve read.
But he did have some good drafts.
And was far ahead of the clowns installed by DL.
First of all
Never wears anything but shorts and suspenders. Second, what’s up with that voice? Third, both his pet and his best friend are dogs. WTF?
Vlad
I had read that before. I’ll find a link later.
Here is something from the Post-Gazette to make you laugh:
The Pirates’ funding for signing draft picks ranks in the top 10 of the 30 major-league teams, McClatchy said, as it has since 2001 when Littlefield asked him for an increase in that area. Two other sources backed that statement. McClatchy would not say how much the team spends, but Cleveland led all teams last year at $8.28 million.
“We’ve been as good as anyone at financing our drafts since Dave took over,” McClatchy said. “It’s an important commitment, and I think you have to make that to your employees when you bring them in. I made this one to Dave.”
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06092/678751-63.stm#ixzz18nX1KAEK
Disingenuous
First of all, I seriously doubt it was true. It was easy to lie back then because nobody tracked draft spending until BA started doing it a year or two later. McClatchy and DL also lied to Dejan about the number of scouts they employed, when they told him they had as many as most teams. Also, note that McClatchy said “funding,” not “spending.” DL may not have spent the money on the draft. My understanding was always that it was DL even more than McClatchy who didn’t like spending on the draft or Latin Am. The near-complete absence of over-slot signings, and the fact that they never spent more than $80K on a LA prospect (excluding the Yoslan Herrera PR stunt), speaks for itself.
Second, most teams adhered to slot spending most of the time in those days. With the Pirates drafting in the top ten every year, the slot structure just about ensured they’d be at least in the top half or so each year.
And of course...
…a team picking #1 overall (as with Bullington) should be much higher than “top ten” in draft spending if they’re actually spending acceptable amounts on their draftees, since they have the top pick in every round and as such their expected slot total is going to be higher than anybody else’s.
Can't disagree
I was trying to find a link for you last night on Mickey White and how some MLB said he was a different guy.
I never did. I remember DK publishing a quote or two on it.
But I re-read some of the Post-Gazette work on DL.
It’s amazing how pro-Littlefield the paper was in its reporting and opinion columns.
They never really challenged any of his ludicrous comments.
Moreover, if you have losing season after losing season, as Vlad notes, you should be near the top in spending.
It’s actually sad that the Post-Gazette, including DK, rarely challenged DL.
I wasn't trying to challenge you on the White thing.
Just thought it was interesting, since I’d never heard that before.
The thing about being top ten in spending I was just highlighting as a good example of DL’s spin in its natural environment.
I can't reveal too much
But I knew someone who worked for the Pirates briefly.
He said DL was an idiot in all aspects of sports. He’d talk about the Steelers and Pirates like he was an expert.
Also, I saw him at a Pirate function once and got to ask him a few questions.
Let’s just say that I was unimpressed with his responses.
And this was shortly after he became GM.
I only wish some team would hire him as GM again, preferably in the division.
But I know that’s just a dream.
As for White, I respect his work. I’ll have to see if I can find the context tomorrow. Essentially, it was that he was an eccentric guy.
But I could care less if you are eccentric and draft well.
Speaking of White,
Anup over at Bucs Prospects has put up a nice article on Stetson Allie. In the responses, reader “Jeremy” brings up JVB & White:
In a story related to me by a friend whio[sic] uis[sic] an usher at PNC Park. Mickey White was sitting in his section and they got to talking about John VanBenschoten, and my friend asked who the moron was that thought JVB should pitch instead of play 1B/RF like he did when he hit 30+ HR in college. Mr. White said "That would be me." In hindsight perhaps the Pirates shouldn’t have listened to Mr. White.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 23, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
In that case ...
I’m not sure they should have.
I thought JVB should have been given at shot at 1b first.
But White was usually right. And the Pirates weren’t the only time to view JVB as a pitcher.
Actually . . .
I saw an interview once with JVB where he was asked whether any other team was looking at him as a pitcher. He said no.
WTM
I’ve seen stories where other team scouts say that he was being evaluated as a pitcher. I’ll try to find a link later.
I think the overwhelming number of teams looked at him a hitter.
But not all. He also wouldn’t know if scouts were following him as a pitcher.
He’d only know what teams say to him.
And some teams draft guys they’ve never even talked to.
WTM
A Paul Meyer chat you’ll find interesting while I try to find a link:
But I could care less if you are eccentric and draft well.
Based on the few I’ve known, there are probably more eccentric scouts than normal ones. It’s not the kind of occupation that’s going to attract “normal” people.
Also, I saw him at a Pirate function once and got to ask him a few questions.
Let’s just say that I was unimpressed with his responses.
I first lost faith in DL shortly after meeting him at Pirate Fest and asking him a question in the management Q&A. We had a void at 2B, and I asked him what characteristics he was looking for in an acquisition at the position, bearing in mind that he couldn’t talk about specific players. He talked about leadoff ability being key, and then like a week later he signed Pokey Reese (who at that time was carrying a career .308 OBP).
His hair was nice, though.
Vlad
I got to attend the event through a friend. The Pirates were hosting this college class that travels around the country and visits MLB teams and minor league teams. It’s out of a Maine college.
Anyhow, it was near the trade deadline when Giles went to SD.
DL talked the entire time about how pitchers needed to be tall and broad and throw hard. Seriously. That’s all he wanted in his pitchers.
I asked him if he would sign Kent Tekulve or a Niekro brother.
His response, “No, they are not what we are looking for. We want tall guys who can throw hard.”
He made a bunch of other dumb comments. Things that would get you mocked on this board.
I asked him if he would sign Kent Tekulve or a Niekro brother.
His response, "No, they are not what we are looking for. We want tall guys who can throw hard."
Yikes. Hard to even know what to say in response to that one. I mean, where do you even start?
He also slammed Greg Maddux to someone else
He said that because he wasn’t tall, he was a fluke and that the Pirates didn’t have time for flukes.
Then, of course, DL never signed any of these tall hardthrowers.
That day was the moment I realized: He’s not very bright and is in way over his head.
Trust me, he was not
He repeatedly talked about how the Pirates had not drafted enough tall pitchers and that wouldn’t happen on his watch.
He said it time after time, like he was speaking from talking points. He also spoke to Teke, the Niekro brothers and Maddux with disdain.
No, he was not smart enough to pull of sarcasm.
WTM
I meant to post about Young earlier.
Yes, it wasn’t too long after that that he pulled the deal on Young for Herges.
It’s like someone had tried to explain to DL the idea of a projectable pitcher and he didn’t get it.
WTM
I only saw him once. I guess you could say I met him because I did get to ask him a few questions.
It was funny. He stopped calling on me because my questions became blunter after his non-answers or stupid answers.
It was that day I became a skeptic.
And I had to live with the Pirate reporters fawning on him for two years after the Giles deal.
Yes, Hughes turned out well.
He kept talking about the downward plane ...
like he had discovered a new area of physics.
I had heard it before so I tried t get him to elaborate.
That’s when it was clear he really had no idea what he was talking about. It was just something he had heard from someone else.
“Well, when the pitcher is tall the ball comes from a higher angle.”
No kidding, Dave.
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