About Cedeno, Karstens, Hardy
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 4, 2010 10:33 AM EST
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PrintMLBTR has some info here about the Pirates' tenders and non-tenders, and about Lastings Milledge:
Milledge could be welcomed back "if we think it's the right fit for the team, and he thinks it's the right fit for him," said Neal Huntington. The Pirates GM said he couldn't work out a contract with Milledge before the non-tender deadline and "began to explore alternatives" to fill Milledge's corner outfield spot. Two options are Jack Cust and Matt Diaz, both of whom were non-tendered themselves by the A's and Braves, respectively.
As I mentioned in another thread, I truly hope we do not sign Jack Cust - I think he's an absolute butcher in the field. Would it be as part of a platoon with GFJ? Ugh.
I wouldn't mind having Diaz, though - I think he'd be a better fit.
Regarding Hardy (also MLBTR), it appears Neal Huntington has made inroads to getting him:
The Pirates were close to a trade for J.J. Hardy on Thursday night, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com. Pittsburgh is known to have an interest in Hardy and could still work out a deal given that the Twins tendered Hardy a contract.
I think it's pretty much a consensus that we'd like to have Hardy on the Pirates, which would relegate Ronny C. to utility infielder, a role in which he'd be perfectly capable.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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i am really curious on how close we were to aquiring Hardy
i wonder why NH was offering and what would have it took to land the SS.
we all think cedeno would be a capable utility guy
however, didnt he pout when crosby took his job for a couple weeks this past summer?
Yeah, but Crosby was not doing terribly well
You’d pout too if your wife replaced you w/an 80 year old, overweight lover…..
Why don't you knock it off with them negative vibes?!
Beltre?
It appears that Boston is about to complete a trade for Adrian Gonzalez, meaning that Adrian Beltre will be leaving the Red Sox. My sense is that he’d prefer a West Coast team that’s a contender. It remains to be seen if one of them will be an active player.
I agree with coctailsfor2’s assessment of Diaz and Cust.
Viva Clemente!
Now we know what the return on an All-Star is.
Reportedly, the Red Sox are giving up their #1, 3 and 6th ranked prospects in their organization.
No
We know what the return for the third best offensive player in baseball is.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 4, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
I would be underwhelmed with this return if I was a Padres fan because all the players coming back are AA or below. I.e., they are all high risk, not one sure thing. If they kept Gonzalez then they’d get a #1 and a supplemental round pick in 2012 and those are likely to be top 5 ranked prospects. Plus, after missing the playoffs by 1 game this year, they could take another run at it next year.
ya i’m really surprised they didn’t get someone from Boston’s current major league team, such as ellsbury, bard, or Lowrie, especially Lowrie since San Diego is currently in the market for a SS
Ellsbury
They may have gotten Ellsbury as a throw in just to have a major league player. There is no way in heck the Sox would part with Lowrie or Bard. Bard is likely to be the closer as the Sox are shopping Papelbon. Scutaro is also likely on the block so Lowrie can start.
Yinzers uber alles
I'd guess...
that the PTBNL is someone not on the 40 man roster and will be announced shortly after the Rule V draft.
Maybe
It also could be a guy who doesn’t have to be on the 40-man roster.
From the reports, it sounds like that SD will have some options on which player it receives.
That was my point...
if it was someone on the 40 man roster…there would be no reason to name him later…they could just do it now. But it has to be someone currently under the Red Sox control. It can’t be someone they don’t currently control.
CBS fantasy sports,
here are the three year averages of key, non-stat maniac, stats for Ronny and JJ
My line is: avg/on-base/slugging w/k
Ronny: .242/.288/.362 20/75
JJ: .263/.324/.422 41/80
JJ has double the number of homers and about 50% more hits & doubles annually. JJ is 28 years old; not sure what his arb/free agent status will be after next year, but he made $5 million last year.
Why don't you knock it off with them negative vibes?!
IIRC, Hardy has 1 year of arb left.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 4, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Diaz's 3-year averages
for avg/on-base/slugging and his w/k rate
.312/.363/.462 and he has 18 walks/62 k’s annually. I’m sort of surprised the Braves released him. He only made $2+ mil last year. It would seem that he’d be the top target in the 4th outfielder sweepstakes, particularly since there are probably also other teams who still a 3rd OOF.
Why don't you knock it off with them negative vibes?!
Yeah -
I hope we go after him.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 4, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
My ears definitely perked when I saw he was free. I hope the Pirates get him.
Pirates, Vikings, Hokies. I'm used to heartbreak. At least I have the Penguins....
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-The Great One
by blackjackfishtaco on Dec 5, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
Put Hardy at SS
Diaz Jones platoon in RF,,,Bowker/ Pearce platoon at 1B…admittedly I’m counting on Hurdle getting Jones back to his ’09 approach and that Bowker calms down and his natural swing (talent) plays out in the bigs…that has the makings of a decent line-up.
What they still need to get over that hump is a top end starter…
But a much brighter future…gone are the no swings of Laroche and milledge…no glove and little swing Clement and no nothing Aki..
Synder/Doumit instead of Doumit alone
Bowker/Pearce over Clement (not even close IMO)
Walker over AKI (LOL)
Hardy over Cedeno (LOL)
Alvarez over Laroche (LOL)
Jones/Diaz over church/milledge/Jones
Cutch
Tabata over Milledge
what a difference in the line up potential.
That 5.00 team ERA isn’t going anywhere anytime soon…and neither is the bad defense. So we’ve pretty much got the same lineup (except Hardy) that went 34-64 after Pedro got called up.
he can only play one position at a time
cedeno was NOT the biggest problem in our defense last season
At least in the second half, he was just as bad as the other infield starters.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 4, 2010 4:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
the last few weeks, yes
thats when most of his problems/mistakes took place. before that, more than acceptable.
I still don't get it
Who are Pirates gonna “OFFER BIG” and how “AGGRESSIVE” are these days to?
I don't think that we offered the player option year
And that was the Rockies real pot sweetener.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 4, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
And we shouldn't
have offered that option year. Not worth it.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 4, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Agree completely
But like I said in another thread somewhere, gotta give the Rockies credit for doing what they had to do to hang on to a pitcher who has proven to be able to pitch at Coors.
http://bleedblackandgold.com/
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Dec 4, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, yeah.
They wanted him, they kept him. Good for COL.
I’m just glad we didn’t cave and get him.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 4, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
don’t get why it wouldn’t have been worth it, even if JDLR would’ve left after 2 years, we still would have had a good pitcher for 2 years, now we have him for 0 years, and his spot will be vacated (as of now) by someone who is inferior for the 2 years
Just my opinion.
I don’t think JLDR is worth what he’d be getting from us. I don’t think he’s all that great. YMMV.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 4, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
At 3/30 or whereabouts, he would have fit. But the player option really throws a wrench in it. If he’s good you pay him two years, but if he’s bad or hurt you’re on the hook for three.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 4, 2010 5:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't really get it though...
we have the same injury risk with the reported 3 year offer so in the end the Bucs lose out on two years of JDLR because they were afraid that if he was good he could opt out after two years?
I agree. Deciding on that contract (if we were in position to do it) would have kept me up all night, but ultimately I might have done same as the FO just because DLR is not a durable pitcher in general.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 4, 2010 7:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You have the same risk, but you don’t have the same potential reward—the risk/reward balance is much different with the player option.
Right...
but without the player option there is no reward at all in that JDLR has signed with someone else. The Pirates are going to have to be a little creative if they want to be players in free agency. It’s not like there are a lot of decent players begging to play in Pittsburgh right now. I don’t see a three year contract, or a third year player option to be more specific, as incredibly risky in terms of the long term health of the franchise.
Snark aside, Perrotto is a trustworth source.
There’s a reason he writes for Baseball Prospectus now.
www.stealingfirstbase.com
Ehh, I dunno.
I stopped buying BPro’s book because it was always riddled with errors. And on reporting-type stuff, they’re the ones who broke the story on Pete Rose’s imminent reinstatement, remember?
I used to really like Perrotto’s work when he was with the BCT, but it seems like he’s gone off the rails a bit the last few years.
If Cust could play first base, he could work, although not the best option.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 4, 2010 12:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions
If a frog had wings,
it wouldn’t whomp it’s ass on the ground every time it jumped.
Just sayin’.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 4, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
I would be all for signing Cust, he put up 2 all star caliber offensive seasons in a row, and of course put him at 1b ( if Clement could learn 1b, so could any major leaguer)
They declined all the way down to being much better than Jones.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 4, 2010 4:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What about Martin?
Are keeping Doumit around? I wish we could ship him out and bring Martin as a backup to see if he could find himself in a new local.
cust makes millions, jones makes thousands
cust gets on base, jones is a better defender. ying, yang, whatevs
I'd be surprised if Cust got millions in his next contract
Teams just aren’t playing DH guys that much money anymore.
I’ve never seen Cust’s D, but I can’t imagine Jones’ D is so much better that it makes up for .080 worth of OBP
fine. lets go ahead and get cust. aint gonna help a bit.
sorry, had to blare that out. im better now.
From everything I've read and heard...
Cust’s D could very well offset an .080 difference in OBP IMO. In 2009 Cust had a negative 27.9 UZR/150. He played 51 games in RF that year (he didn’t play hardly at all in the OF in 2010…wonder why?). Compartively, last year Jones had a negative 2.6 UZR/150 and a negative .3 in 2009 playing RF in 38 and 49 games respectively. Additionally, +/- saw Jones has a plus defender both years with 4 DRS each year in 2009 and 2010. Cust had a -8 DRS rating in 2009. These are not small differences. Also, Cust hasn’t played any 1B at all so if you are thinking of playing him there he is will likely be an even worse defender there than RF. Cust will likely have to have a significant rebound offensively to be of any value in the NL. I think there are better options out there for the Pirates than Cust. At this point, going on the assumption the Bucs won’t move Pedro, I’d like the Bucs to get a RH bat for either 1B or RF as half of a platoon – D. Lee, M. Diaz, Hairston (could be interesting bounceback candidate for a platoon), E. Encarnacion (if he can play 1B), or Glaus. I would then use that player along with Pearce, Bowker and Jones as platoon options for 1B and RF. I’d keep Pressley on board as the 5th OF. I would also do what it takes to acquire Hardy to play SS.
If THIS post isn't enough
to make people understand why we DO NOT WANT Cust, I don’t know what is.
Well done, Slick.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 5, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
That's true
But Oakland is probably the worse place for him to play OF. It’s enormous and makes his defensive shortcomings even more of a liability.
He’d be a weak defender at PNC. But it wouldn’t hurt the Bucs nearly as much.
I don’t buy the Milledge comment. I figure from the team’s perspective, he’s not worth a 25-man spot no matter the price. Hard to believe 500k savings is the real motivation if they thought he could make the team.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 4, 2010 12:42 PM EST via mobile reply actions
If the 500k savings was the motivation...
then we need new owners. So, you are right…they must feel that Milledge isn’t worth a spot on the 25 man at any price. The question is…who do they replace him with?? And the answer isn’t apparent yet. Maybe a week from now we will know…but at this point, I don’t believe the answer to the question comes from within the Pirates system.
Savings
The Pirates are still going to have to pay a guy to be on the 25-man roster.
The savings will be minimal for that guy versus Lastings.
I take NH at his word: He liked other guys better.
I suspect Diaz is the target.
No doubt they like other guys better, and so do I, but can they sign them?
Do you want a platoon spot with the Pirates, or a more likely contender next season? Now, it we offered Diaz an everyday role, maybe that greases the wheels…he’s shown enough bat for everyday at times, although inconsistently (2007, 2009).
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 4, 2010 7:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The Pirates need to find the next Jayson Werth or Nelson Cruz, someone with high upside who needs both an opportunity and a team that is willing to show patience. Adding someone like Matt Diaz, who will be 33 on opening day, seems kind of pointless. The team needs players who can take it to 90 wins, not 70.
by bolton on Dec 4, 2010 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't mind him
He’s a one-year platoon option.
I’d much rather see Diaz in RF while we look at more long-term options than Doumit or GJ.
Supposedly
The asking price for Mark Reynolds is just two relief pitchers, per a link from mlbtraderumors.
Believe what you want about his strikeout and defense, but for 30+ homers, I’d think long and hard about it unless than wanted Hanrahan.
Believe what you want about his strikeout and defense, but for 30+ homers…
Runs are runs, regardless of what form they take.
What about the strikeout trend, though? 35%, 38, 39, 42, (???)? This does drives his trade price down if you want a 2-year offensive fix.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 4, 2010 7:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This does drives his trade price down if you want a 2-year offensive fix.
You shouldn’t target “30+ homers” or “a 2-year offensive fix.” You should target a player who gives you a lot of runs per dollar invested, regardless of what kind of runs he’s actually giving you. Runs are runs. Runs from home runs, runs from baserunning, runs from defense… who gives a shit?
If a player doesn’t hit a single home run all year, but Ron Hunts his way to 100 runs’ worth of value purely through HBPs, he’s still giving you a hundred runs’ worth of value. They look just the same on the scoreboard, and they lead to the same number of wins.
Ron Hunt!
He played for the Giants when I was a kid growing up in San Jose… Loved that guy!
.
For those not in the know, some neat trivia about Hunt:
#Finished 2nd in ROY voting for the ’63 season behind Pete Rose.
#First Met to be named an All-Star starter (1964).
#Led the league in HBP for seven consecutive years, including a modern record of 50 in 1971. He was quoted as saying, "Some people give their bodies to science; I give mine to baseball". He retired with a modern-record 243 plunks, though Don Baylor, Craig Biggio, and Jason Kendall have since passed him.
#Hunt struck out very seldomly – 382 times in 6,158 plate appearances and never more than 50 times in a year. His 19 whiffs in 486 trips to the plate in 1963 set a record low for the Expos franchise.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 4, 2010 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
Can't believe you forgot this one:
Hunt used to wear a wetsuit under his uniform, so it’d hurt less when he got plunked.
D'oh!
Fergot that, but in my defense, I was just popping off a few…
Wetsuit > body armor that these pussies wear nowadays…
“I worked and practiced in full uniform in a mirror to make sure it was perfect. I’d stand right on top of the plate. An inside pitch had to be right on the corner, or it would hit me. The umpires never called me for getting hit on purpose.” – Ron Hunt in Baseball Digest (July 2000, Al Doyle, ’Where Are They Now?: Former Player Ron Hunt Recalls His Big League Career)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 4, 2010 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
One oops...
the 19 whiffs in 486 trips for the Expos was in 1973 instead of 63…Expos didn’t even exist until 1969.
Mea Culpa.
Hydrocodone + Gabapentin + vodka = fat fingers.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 4, 2010 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
Again guy has flaws.
But if its Meek/Resop for a guy one year removed from 44 homers, then its a damn good allocation of two resources grabbed off of the scrap heap in my opinion.
But that’s assuming the price is that low. Seems suspicious.
What’s your strategy for the bullpen after that, then?
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 4, 2010 10:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm no GM.
But relievers are so random, it seems just as likely as not that Resop and Meek will blow next year anyways, so getting two other guys off the scrap heap might be the way to go anyways.
With the exception of closers/relievers with crazy stuff, I say deal a reliever any time he has significant value, which Meek seems to have. It’s obviously not quite that simple, but that’s the gist of it.
For example, and I admit I’m not nearly as well-read in baseball as many of you seem to be, there’s some guys available right now on the relative cheap that could easily be of great value. George Sherrill, for instance. Guy had one bad year and is now available, and I believe I read recently that he still murdered lefties this season. Guy just brought back Josh Bell in exchange two seasons ago. (While I’m on the subject, does anybody else feel we should deal with the Dodgers GM much more often?) If he bombs, oh well. If he does well, instant value/trade bait.
Also, let's not forget.
The Pirates aren’t going to be great this season. Not even likely to be .500, and that’s on the starting pitching and the offense for the most part. Relievers aren’t going to help much if the Pirates can’t score runs.
RPs
NH showed last year that you can build a bullpen through a free agent signing and NRI.
If someone is willing to give up a starter or middle-of-the-order hitter for Meek, I don’t think you turn it down.
I like him. But he’s probably our best trade chip (that we’d actually trade.)
That immediately forces a decision whether Pedro will be at 1B or 3B. Reynolds has a $5M contract for 2011, $7M in 2012, and an option in 2013 for $11M or a $500K buyout. At that point, it becomes rather interesting whether Rendon is still in line to be the #1 draft pick.
At that point, it becomes rather interesting whether Rendon is still in line to be the #1 draft pick.
No, it doesn’t. You always, always, always take the best available player. If Rendon’s the best available player, we take Rendon, and then if we need to trade Reynolds in 2013 or move Rendon to RF or something, we cross that bridge when we get there.
It’s not a question whether Rendon’s still in line in my mind whether he’s #1…it’s a question whether he’s #1 in the Pirates mind…and we won’t have a definitive answer to that until June. He may not be #1 in the Pirates FO minds NOW, given the Pirates FO apparent love for pitching. Let alone if we get a 3B (Reynolds, Beltre, etc).
it’s a question whether he’s #1 in the Pirates mind…and we won’t have a definitive answer to that until June. He may not be #1 in the Pirates FO minds NOW, given the Pirates FO apparent love for pitching.
Sure, very true.
Let alone if we get a 3B (Reynolds, Beltre, etc).
Whether or not we add a 3B this offseason isn’t going to have any effect whatsoever on whether or not Rendon is the best available player. As such, it shouldn’t even enter into our consideration when we decide on the pick next June.
Is Reynolds really an upgrade over Pedro at 3b? Reynolds had good defensive marks last year, but had 3 years’ worth of bad rankings.
Plus on offense, he had 99 hits, 32 of which he ran into and the ball landed over the fence, I just think he’d lose a couple HRs to our deep LF, and if he’s not hitting it over the fence, he’s much less valuable.
Is Reynolds really an upgrade over Pedro at 3b?
Maybe, maybe not.
It’s pretty clear that Reynolds-at-3B, Pedro-at-1B is an upgrade on Pedro-at-3B, Jones-at-1B, though. The question is whether Arizona’s price is low enough for the upgrade to make sense (and from what I’m hearing, they want a lot – they asked Baltimore for Tillman).
i agree
the K rates for alvarez and reynolds on the same team will be astronomical, as will the errors. would probably lead to the firing of NH by seasons end.
you know I read through the length of the comments for more info
But no one said anything about the Trade offer for Hardy. Has anyone got any idea how much or what the Twins expect for him?
by Pensburgh Pirates on Dec 6, 2010 3:31 PM EST reply actions
was hoping to find that too
but as yet I’ve not seen a report on it.
I read that the Mark Reynolds offer was a similar package to what was being discussed for Bartlett so I guess that’s close to Hardy’s value.
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