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On Miguel Sano

Vlad found a good quote from Neal Huntington on why the Pirates were unable to sign Miguel Sano, about whom there's been a lot of talk over the past few days. With all due respect, I think people who are still fixated on Sano specifically are missing the point. This is understandable, since the Pittsburgh media placed a great deal of emphasis on Sano, which they were right to do since he is a top talent and the Pirates apparently wanted him badly.

But still: let's say that Huntington's version of the story, in which he got screwed over by Sano's agent, is true. Heck, it probably is true. But Sano has hardly been the only Latin American amateur signed to a seven-figure bonus this offseason. The Yankees signed Gary Sanchez for $3 million, the Mariners got Guillermo Pimental for $2 million, the Red Sox got Jose Vincio for about $2 million, the Rangers signed Jurickson Profar and Luis Sardinas for $1.5 million each, and the Royals signed Cheslor Cuthbert for $1.2 million. The Pirates didn't sign any of those players, either. They were rumored to be in on Cuthbert, but they didn't get him.

In fact, we haven't yet heard of any major signings from Latin America this year. Not one. Now, there are a couple of mitigating factors: first, bonus figures on these players aren't always made public, so it could be that the paragraph after this one is much ado about nothing. Second, because of the risk involved in signing 16-year-olds, it might be a better strategy to give medium-sized bonuses to lots of players than to give out lots of money to just one. The mid-size bonuses the Pirates gave Exicardo Cayonez ($400,000), Jordaneli Carvajal ($350,000) and Jonathan Barrios ($250,000) in 2008 appear to be consistent with such a strategy, and I have no problems with what they did in Latin America in 2008.

What about 2009, though? So far we've heard about some Latin American signings. We've also heard about some creative talent finds in Lithuania, Australia and Taiwan. In total the Pirates made at least 43 international signings this year. But we haven't heard that any of them required much of an investment. Perhaps the Pirates have opened their wallets and we just haven't heard about it yet, but if not, then that's where I think the problem lies. Not with Sano specifically, but with the fact that the Pirates spent millions on this new Dominican academy and haven't taken significant (or, at least, obvious) steps this year to fill it with talent.

UPDATE: I just spoke to Dejan Kovacevic about this, and he told me he thinks the Pirates spent around their entire budget of $2 million, or maybe a bit more. There were 31 international signings, so that makes an average bonus of around $65,000, which means there are probably a couple signings in the range of Cayonez or Carvajal. We just don't know what they are yet.

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this is an excellent point

I think their version is correct on Sano, and I know that the agent pretty much admitted to it on the PBC blog… that still leaves the fact that they pissed the agent off enough…

still, I m guessing the way it happens is teams pick a target and chase him… since no one seems to have more than one big sign (ok, the rangers have 2), and maybe the Pirates had Sano as their only target, and missed… we’ll have to see how this develops…

by BurgherKing on Feb 1, 2010 7:47 PM EST reply actions  

I think this explains it even better

“We were never in the game for a player even looking for $250,000 out of Latin America before,” he said. “This may be one time we were overly aggressive — we moved too quickly.” — NH; quoted in Karen Price’s article from this past weekend.
Bucs’ Huntington: Frustrated by Sano deal

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Feb 1, 2010 8:01 PM EST reply actions  

43 international signings

Unfortunately, something like 8 or 9 of those deals were voided because the players lied about their ages. It hasn’t been made public which ones.

by WTM on Feb 1, 2010 8:20 PM EST reply actions  

Do you know a reference for that...

With keeping your pages up to date I imagine it’s multiple sources; but I also wonder if that percentage is average for MLB teams, or not…..

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Feb 1, 2010 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Yikes

There were actually 12 signings that got voided.

by WTM on Feb 1, 2010 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I looked around

I looked around, tried searching for different combinations of words that might lead to a chart, or discussion of how all the MLB teams fared in this respect; and I found nothing. It does now seem to be a common problem for teams; I just wonder why it seems to not get national press, even when it is clearly affecting almost every, if not all teams. Paul.

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Feb 2, 2010 12:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Bryce Harper

Now the Harper thing pops up.. Chances are Pittsburgh will have a very good chance at getting the can’t miss prospect, but already cheap ownership and dumb management is spinning that they don’t think he is a top 10 pick.. WHOA. Since when did littlebrain Jr get the credentials to scout players?

by psunate77 on Feb 1, 2010 10:50 PM EST reply actions  

How do you know he is a can’t miss prospect? I guess you must read SI, is that it?

by MarkInDallas on Feb 1, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Nobody knows talent like SI.

by WTM on Feb 1, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem with SI.....

The problem with SI is they never ‘push the envelope’ to really show what that kind of talent can really do……..

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Feb 2, 2010 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Are you kidding me, this kid is said to be a can’t miss…

Hopefully for his sake he stays away from this organization.

by psunate77 on Feb 2, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Let's see how he does this year in Juco...

that will go a long way to showing what type of talent he is. Personally, I think he will prove to be one of the top three talents in the draft but that’s a long way off and anything could happen.

by Slick1 on Feb 2, 2010 12:38 AM EST up reply actions  

sometimes....

but there have been some red flags, his performance last years Alflac All-American game where he was 0 for 5. Now, it is true he did well in the first few rounds of their home run derby; but he failed in his first real experience of playing against kids who were almost all older than him.

He also shows the immaturity of your atypical ‘child television star.’ With quotes like:

“I love showing up the older guys.”
“I love how people talk crap,” Harper says. “I hear it all the time. Overrated. You suck. I’ll just do something to shut them up, like, I’ll show you. It’s like in regular pregame work. I like to show off my arm. Just so it’s like, There you go.”


Sure he might grow out of it, or he might end up like the cast of “Diff’rent Strokes.” We will just need to wait and see.

Maybe playing at the baseball hotbed ‘College of Southern Nevada’ will show his detractors to be wrong. After all their insane schedule against the other baseball power houses, such as Yavapai College, Western Nevada College and the ever so well respected Salt Lake Community College; may actually show something.

Quite frankly, next years draft class is shaping up to a really good one; maybe NH just doesn’t want any question marks.

Think about this— NH may just yet make a fool out of a lot of us (myself included) who panned picking Tony Sanchez in the first round. We might not know that for a while, but I hope NH and Tony do prove me wrong.

Sorry for the rant, but hopefully my post shows why I felt the need to rant. Paul.

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Feb 2, 2010 1:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Of course...

Harper starts his JC career going 3-15 (1-11 in his first 3 games…2-4 in the last one). Small sample size…obviously…but not 1st draft choice numbers.

by Thunder on Feb 2, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I know I'm wasting my time here . . .

. . . but they didn’t say that. It’s funny how everybody ignores this quote:

We will scout Bryce Harper, we will put him on the board and if he’s the right player, we’ll take him. We’re not just going to pick a player because publications like him. We’ll select the player that we think is best when we pick.

by WTM on Feb 1, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

But to acknowledge that quote...

would mean I coldn’t use this opportunity to say how dumb Huntington is and that Nutting is cheap. So I will pretend it doesn’t exist. OK here goes, passing on Harper is just another example of how stupid Huntington is and is just another in a long line of examples of how CHEAP Nutting is. Please Nutting SELL THE TEAM TO MARIO!!!

How did I do?

by Slick1 on Feb 1, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

You forgot

I’M DONE WITH THIS TEAM

-and-

some reference to “McClouth.”

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 2, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

23 Million dollar payroll… What a joke.. Keep rooting for losers.

by psunate77 on Feb 2, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions  

I have for 30 years...

and I won’t stop now. It will make it that much sweeter in a couple of years. And I think the payroll is a little more than 23 million but I get your point…Nutting is cheap!

by Slick1 on Feb 2, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree, I am a huge supporter, have been a season ticket holder for a while and I am tired of cheapness. If this team passes up Harper, I am done.

by psunate77 on Feb 2, 2010 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

And if....

Harper ends up like the next Joe Charboneau? Will you still be rooting for the team that picked him?

C’mon, he’s a spoiled sixteen year old CHILD.

I’d be slightly pissed if we do take him.

I’ll still root for the Pirates either way. Even if he fails, like I think he could, but that is just who I am. Paul.

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Feb 2, 2010 1:34 AM EST up reply actions  

PS

I really don’t think much of the Nats FO, so being that I think they will pick Harper, I am not sure why I even bothered writing my last two posts……

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Feb 2, 2010 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Go Joe Charboneau

was a hit song his rookie year.

His Baseball Reference page says he was signed by the Bucs as a minor league FA in 1984.

by patthatt on Feb 2, 2010 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

and you ?

who do you root for Psunate? I’ll bet it ’s the Yankees

by michaelbro8 on Feb 4, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Lets wait.. This is the same organization that passed up Weiters for a terrible relief pitcher that right now is going to be a fringe MLB player.

I don’t buy anything that comes from these guys mouths. Like I said, they have to win me back and losing Sano and Harper in a year’s time is going to tough to swallow.

If they take Harper I will come give them credit, but there is nothing that makes me believe they will. NH saying he isn’t a top 10 in their eyes sounds like he spinning them not taking him/

by psunate77 on Feb 2, 2010 12:57 AM EST up reply actions  

You do realize that Nutting fired Littlefield in part because he didn’t take Wieters, right?

by MarkInDallas on Feb 2, 2010 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Mark is sharp.....

and it pisses me off…. I spend… all the time I just spent, trying to clearly articulate rational responses to the argument, and he trumps it all with one question.

Truth:
BIG +1

dang……

"I choose to gamble with my life

Twice the risk, four times the prize

Nothing knocks me over"

by lighthouse913 on Feb 2, 2010 1:48 AM EST up reply actions  

What Mark said...

this is NOT the same organization that passed over Wieters for Moskos. I truly believe that if DL were still in charge we wouldn’t have drafter Alvarez. You can knock Huntington in some areas but the draft definitely is not one of them. He has done a fantastic job in the two drafts he has overseen.

by Slick1 on Feb 2, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I know exactly what you mean!

It’s gonna be exactly like that time they passed on that Pedro Alvereza kid or something just because his bonus demands were too high! And they didn’t wanna deal with his super agent!

Oh wait…

Listen, I believe they’ll take the highest available player on their board, as they should. If its not Harper, its not Harper. Remember when Jamarcus Russell was on the top of everyone’s board because of his monster physical attributes? How many different ways can you say “workout wonder”? The guy has every physical tool in the universe (I think they even invented some for him. Seriously.) but doesn’t have the head to play pro sports. No work ethic, extremely immature. If they discover this is the case with Harper, I don’t want him. Plain and simple.

The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.

by glass0941 on Feb 2, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

so

elsewhere in a different thread, WTM says that Dejan replied to comments on the PBC blog to say that he indeed felt that Harper is not in the Pirates top 10. I see nothing in the reported comments to deduce that, but if other conversations by Dejan did indeed lead him to draw that conclusion, I’d be somewhat worried. (I think, for the most part, its been well-established that Dejan doesn’t jump to conclusions or just throw something out there)

That said, as long as the Pirates are willing to let his performance and scouting decide, I m fine with that. Another point here, this is exactly why you want to play better and not have to pick #2. If the Nats pass on Harper, it’s a huge quandary. All you have to go on is 6 months of Harper against JuCo pitching. Do you take him, with what is likely to be in the range of a $10M bonus, or do you skip him for a college talent like Colon/Ranaudo or even Taillion (HS)? There is going to be fan backlash if you do that, and the Pirates aren’t particularly well-entrenched with their fanbase.

by BurgherKing on Feb 2, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I get the impression that this front office will do whatever they think is best, regardless of what the fanbase thinks. Trading Freddy and Jack and especially McLouth were all incredibly unpopular moves, and Huntington didn’t blink.

by gorillagogo on Feb 2, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Huntington has ample credentials to scout players, he was in scouting and player development for 15 years before becoming GM of the Pirates. Doesn’t mean he’s always right, but his credentials are certainly in order.

by maguro on Feb 1, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I won't be losing any sleep over Sano ...

I remember the Pirates signing a 16-year old phenom in 1997 – Jose Castillo.

by Pirate in Ole VA on Feb 2, 2010 1:56 AM EST reply actions  

Get your point...

but I think we runied Castillo’s development by bringing him up to soon. He had some real talent and could have been something special with a better player development program. I have to admit that I like the “stricter” program that Stark and Huntington have put together.

by Slick1 on Feb 2, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Burned bridges...

Do you think NH screwed up the Sano deal so bad with his poor people skills that he is now being blackballed by Latin player agents??

Here is a good article about how a GM who has won a World Series thinks and operates..

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=cin

by ohiobuc on Feb 2, 2010 6:32 AM EST reply actions  

No

Why would all the agents blackball us over private negotiations with one guy (to which they were not privy)? You really think they’re all going to ask their clients to fall on their swords to defend the honor of a competitor who has already admitted to being at least partially in the wrong by going back on his word? Why on earth would they do that?

by Vlad on Feb 2, 2010 7:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Nope...

in the end it will come down to money. In fact Plummer went out of his way several times after the Sano fiasco to point out that Huntington is doing a great job. I think what he did was simply to send a message to NH for future negotiations…“when I say do not talk to my player, and that he will get over $3 million dollars, I mean it.” Not all agents act in that manner which could ne considered unethical.

by Slick1 on Feb 2, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Doubt it

Plummer himself has said publicly that he likes Huntington, feels he is moving the Pirates in the right direction, and would definitely do business with him again.

by MBandi on Feb 2, 2010 10:33 AM EST reply actions  

Crap...

didn’t see yours before posting nearly the same thing.

by Slick1 on Feb 2, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Crap...

I locked my keys my car

by TravisDW on Feb 2, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

People get too fired up over Latin America phenoms

when it’s not even clear how old a lot of these guys are.

by patthatt on Feb 2, 2010 9:35 PM EST reply actions  

Question for the group:

What do you guys think of Rene Gayo?

by patthatt on Feb 2, 2010 9:36 PM EST reply actions  

He's pretty well-respected

around the game, and around Latin America. So there’s that. He seems to have a pretty good network built up. That’s important, for that region of the world.

IMO, the Pirates could do a heck of a lot worse for LA Scouting Director, than Gayo.

by Midnight Moose on Feb 3, 2010 4:23 AM EST up reply actions  

What I like: He seems willing to search under every rock. He’s signed guys from all over LA, not just the DR and VZ. They’ve had guys from Mexico, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Panama and Colombia. And he’s dug up some useful players (Romulo Sanchez, Ron Uviedo) who were cut loose by other teams.

What I don’t like: His overzealousness probably helped screw up the negotiations with Sano.

by WTM on Feb 3, 2010 6:57 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

Could have said it better on both counts.

by Slick1 on Feb 3, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Anyone catch Humberto Cota and Luis Cruz playing for Mexico in the Carribean Series last night?

Ah, the memories…

by maguro on Feb 3, 2010 10:16 AM EST reply actions  

They created such memories that I can’t remember.

by WTM on Feb 3, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

2 trivia questions:

1) how many teams have more world championships than the Pirates ?
2) how many teams have more championships than the Pirates in the last 50 years ?

by michaelbro8 on Feb 4, 2010 5:00 PM EST reply actions  

1) 5…Yankees…Red Sox…Cardinals…Dodgers…Athletics.
2) 3…Yankees…Dodgers…Athletics (several others…Reds…Cardinals…for example…have won the same as the Pirates…3).

Of course…if you ask about the last 30 years…the number is quite a bit different…18 teams have won at least 1 World Series since 1980…and the Pirates aren’t one of them.

by Thunder on Feb 4, 2010 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

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