John Russell: Kevin Hart has Inside Track on Rotation Spot
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 19, 2010 7:28 PM EST
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On Friday, all indications pointed to Hart as the front-runner.
In discussing his pitching corps, manager John Russell mentioned Hart as one of the starters and McCutchen among the bullpen crew. But when pressed, Russell stopped short of confirming Hart has won the job.
"There's competition and he knows it," Russell said of Hart, two worked on his delivery over the winter. "He's going to do everything he can to make sure he makes a good impression and shows he's ready for it. We've got some other very good candidates, but he's working awfully hard. Time will tell, but he's in a good position right now."
So there you go. McCutchen outpitched Hart last season and is probably the better bet to not completely bomb this year, but this isn't surprising.
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I have no problem with this though…this season is the optimal time to roll the dice on the guy with a little bit more upside.
by Say Hey Johnny Ray on Feb 19, 2010 7:54 PM EST reply actions
I agree. I still think Hart ends up in the bullpen, but I don’t mind giving him another chance to be a starter.
However, I don’t really like the idea of McCutchen as a reliever. He’s a classic back of the rotation starter and really doesn’t add much value to the bullpen. I’d much prefer to see him starting in AAA.
Same thoughts here. They can start McCutchen in AAA then bring him up if Hart doesn’t pan out as a starter or if someone in the rotation gets hurt. It seems a better strategy than putting one of them in the bullpen where they seem to have other people they can give a chance to contribute.
"if Hart doesn't pan out"
Oh no, not another rotating 5-hole.
Pedro is still available. Just sayin’.
Pedro Martinez?
Ok, sure. If that doesn’t work, maybe we can get Randy Johnson out of retirement.
by IAPiratesFan on Feb 20, 2010 5:34 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, that Pedro
then if HE doesn’t pan out …
NUTTING IS SOOOOOO CHEAP!
He should just sign Washburn and be done with it or SALE THE TEAM!
:p
by BlindSquirrel on Feb 21, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Welcome to Scholarship Central…where positions are decided ignoring past performance…and before someone actually throws a pitch to a batter. Where have we seen this before? Doesn’t matter what the names involved are.
Hmmm....
I just re-read it and JR didn’t say “Kevin Hart has the job.” or anything like that. He said that Hart has the inside track, meaning it’s his job to win or lose.
by IAPiratesFan on Feb 19, 2010 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
i must admit
i m not a big fan of this either.
I do hope management communicates well with McCutchen. His upside is probably limited, but you never know when someone manages to take a step up. McCutchen has done very well in AAA, and been balanced, at least, in limited MLB time.
by BurgherKing on Feb 19, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
I would say this is a slight overreaction. Of course they want Hart to win the job. He has better stuff. But if he McCutchen is clearly better in ST, he will get the job methinks.
by Bravery Things on Feb 19, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
I think the reason for Russell's comments is in the rest of the article.
Hart has worked really hard on his delivery over the winter and his pitches are now showing more movement.
Hart looked sharp a month ago in minicamp and again on Thursday, when he threw a 40-pitch bullpen. It was so good, in fact, that the normally stoic Russell gushed.
“He’s throwing the ball really, really well,” Russell said, arching eyebrows in emphasis. “So we’re very excited.”
Of course, Hart is the more talented pitcher. He has much better stuff. He has the inside track because he deserves it. Of course, that has to translate into results for him to actually win the job.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 19, 2010 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
Arching eyebrows??
That’s quite an emotional response for a zombie ;)
No need
To go all PBC after this comment.
It’s not like either Hart or McCutchen pitched better than one another with the Pirates. The results were about the same between them as starters. Regardless, 6-10 starts probably isn’t the best measure of who will perform better in the future.
I think some
Assumed DCutch by default because people were tiring of Hart walking folks, and TheOtherCutch ended with a win in Cincy.
I'm fine with Hart having the inside track
But I just wonder about the wisdom of JR coming out and saying it, even if that’s what he thought.
hart is the better pitcher
hart definitely has a better upside, in a year when we will be lucky to get 65 wins why not see what you got in hart. send cutch to indy, im sure that maholm or someone else will spend some time on the DL this year and let cutch pitch then.
I'm not assuming anything...
other than the painful habit of Pirates management announcing their preferences while ignoring past performance…and speaking out about players “looking better” without actually playing in competition. And making…or implying decisions have been made…without players having taken the field.
Why not wait until the middle of March…when some guys have actually thrown some pitches to live batters?? Then…if it’s still valid…start bragging on players. But right now…it’s foolish…and doesn’t provide any motivational value to anyone.
What's the issue
With giving someone kudos who worked hard in the offseason? He’s not giving him the job by saying that.
One would hope that...
most or all of the players worked hard during the offseason. Do you see everyone getting kudos??
And…how does any of that translate to actual performance?? It’s not like Hart has been facing live batters all winter. Lots of guys have great stuff in the bullpen…but when they get on the mound…they get hammered.
I have no idea if everyone worked hard in the offseason
But either way, this is not the same as saying Hart has the job — and saying something like Scholarship Central is just really ridiculous.
If it was only Hart...
that has been given an edge (or…flatout a position) in comments by the FO to the media over the last 2 years…it wouldn’t be scholarship central…and I wouldn’t have made a comment. How many examples do we really need…LaRoche… Morgan… Hart…Clement?? Granted…Morgan worked out well. For 130 games last season…LaRoche didn’t. Clement is pretty much being handed 1B unless he gets a major hairball stuck in his throat in March.
This is the 3rd Spring Training for NH/FC/JR. When have you EVER heard them state that there was an open competition for a significant spot on the roster?? In fact…there were several statements before the 2009 ST about the roster being pretty much set before ST…and I recall one or two this year after Donnelly/Dotel were signed.
The Pirates don’t have players competing for jobs. They have people that have jobs until they screw things up so bad that management doesn’t have any choice. (See also…Gomez…Rivas…Monroe…Vazquez) Mediocrity is fine. Anyone behind them pretty much has to pull a Garrett Jones to play.
A scholarship can be revoked…but to say that the Pirates haven’t given players positions without them being earned by performance is incorrect.
Does this come back to your feelings about LaRoche once again?
I just don’t see how much there is to earn in Spring Training. In the grand scheme of things, it means less than nothing. And beyond that, there’s not much there personnel-wise who are going to compete. Alvarez is not going to take a job from LaRoche in Spring Training. Lincoln is not going to take a job from anyone in Spring Training. Neil Walker is not going to take someone’s job in Spring Training. Clement? He has the inside track (as he should), but if he’s bad on defense, they’ve said he won’t stick around at MLB since he has an option left. If you base a “competition” on a month of spring stats rather than a person’s track record or minor league career, then you’re just being foolish.
Honestly, around the league I just don’t think you’re going to find many instances where there is “open” competition for a major spot because Spring Training stats really don’t have much of a correlation to the regular season — no one month of stats should be extrapolated to mean too much, especially one where nothing is the same as how it will be during the regular season.
Plus, as you pointed out to an extent, there just are not many other options for most of these spots. Clement/Jones/Church is one of the only places where there is a logical amount switching that could go on while not hurting the team. Same goes for the 5th spot (though it does make sense that Hart should have the inside track if you take everything into account rather than just how the season went down the stretch). There is a spot up for grabs in the pen. The Cedeno/Crosby “battle” is a whatever thing. Neither is the answer, but Cedeno probably should get the job by default. But other than that, where do you see where there should be competition?
And, I could be misunderstanding you, but are you saying you think someone like Monroe or Rivas should have been given a starting job because they played well in Spring Training (in Monroe’s case he did play well)? If so, I think that’s just odd to say.
Beyond that, who was supposed to play over LaRoche last year that had earned a chance to play? (PS, your argument about LaRoche’s stats is sooooo very tired Thunder, you really need to give it up at this point because it’s been repeated so many times).
As for the last point, I guess I would have to ask you what your definition is of “earning” a spot?
Obviously...you are missing the point.
Again…it’s when Pirates management makes a decision that has no basis in ML performance and just decides…XX is going to play. As Charlie pointed out…McCutchen’s numbers were better than Hart’s last year…AT the major league level. Suddenly…Hart has the “inside track”.
Cedeno…has been given SS by default…nothing to indicate that he’s better than Crosby…just that he was acquired first…and was considered the incumbent.
Clement…by default…because he MIGHT hit at the ML level…even though he hasn’t to this point. And has a whopping 20+ games in the minors at the position he’s expected to play. Doesn’t matter that Jones and or Pearce would likely be much better on defense. Play Jones at 1st and Church in right…you are gaining on defense…and likely not giving up anything but power on offense.
LaRoche…I won’t even bother. By June that decision may be irrelevant anyway.
We’ll watch for someone this year to put up 30 days (more likely 2 weeks) of great or even decent stats and be anointed a starter for 2011…no matter what they do the rest of the season. (Under previous administrations…it would be names like Duffy…Redman…Allensworth)
Earning a spot…showing more skill than another player on a day to day basis. Not potential…but skill. Results…not potential.
Rivas…Gomez…Monroe (and this year…Vazquez) had no business being anywhere near a major league roster in the last 2 years. My statement was that they were given jobs until they screwed up (or failed to perform) so bad that management needed to have them disappear from the roster.
Remember the team that looked like garbage for all of August and September last year? The one that went 17-41 in August and September. Other than Iwamura…no significant influx of talent from what we had the final 2 months. Very few positions should be locked up on a team with a .300 winning percentage talent level. If you listen to management…the lineup and rotation are pretty much set.
Cedeno is 3 years younger than Crosby and has more potential to improve, so he gets first shot at the job. If he doesn’t produce, Crosby plays. Seems fair to me. You want to see if Cedeno can be your SS for the next few years before you hand the job to a veteran on a 1-year contract.
Same situation with Clement. We’re not winning the pennant this year, so why not find out if the guy can hit? Again, if he flops you move Jones to 1B and play Church in RF, but the point to identify players whi can help us when we’re contending and Church is not going to be one of those guys so he shouldn’t be the first option.
I don’t know what your beef is with LaRoche. He was clearly our best option at 3B last year and did a decent job. Who would you have replaced him with?
As far Hart vs. McCutchen, I think you’re overreacting. Hart has a higher ceiling so they’d prefer to see him succeed. McCutchen is a soft tosser who will never be more than a 5th starter, whereas Hart has the potential to strike some guys out and be a little more dominant. But if he pitches poorly again like he did at the end of last year, McCutchen will get his chance.
If the point...
is to identify players that will help us when we are contending…then you’d have to shoot about half the bench most seasons. To identify those players…they have to actually play. When you play 1/3 of the time…or less…you don’t get many chances to succeed.
Ronny Cedeno…over 1300 major league plate appearances…OPS .626.
Bobby Crosby…about twice the plate appearances…OPS .686. And it has been suggested that he’s actually the better fielder…range factors…fielding percentage…even UZR/150 (Crosby +4.1, Cedeno -5.6) all better for Crosby. Yep…by all means…Cedeno deserves 1st crack.
Clement…why see if he can hit?? Didn’t seem to be much need to see if a few other guys not named Jones could hit last year…why now. In about 240 PA…OPS of .701 in the majors. Give him 400 more PA to show what he can or can’t do…fine. With his lack of defensive skills, any OPS lower than .800 is a waste of a roster spot at 1B.
Pedro comes up…what are you going to do?? Move Pedro to 1B?? Trade LaRoche?? Move him to 1B?? Move him to 2B?? Trade Clement?? Trade Jones?? If LaRoche is so vital to a winning team…then he can’t come out of the lineup.
I have no beef with LaRoche. I do believe this group…and most Pirate fans…have overrated his offensive talent level…and to some extent…his defense. Because he was a “highly rated prospect” in the Dodger organization…it’s been assumed that he’s gonna be an All Star 3B (slight sarcasm). Most projections I’ve seen have him around the same offensive numbers as last year (which rated him 17th of 24 major league 3B with a significant number of plate appearances). Defensively…maybe a half win above replacement. Brooks Robinson he ain’t…and Brooks was probably the only guy that could hold a 3B spot with a .723 career OPS. Just as an example…Richie Hebner’s OPS as a Pirate… .792…and he was NEVER an all star.
I will believe they are putting their best lineup out there when they aren’t busy “trying to find out who can play” (see also Clement, Jeff, Cedeno, Ronny and Hart, Kevin). I will believe that the Pirates are actually trying to find out who can play…the day they release Ramon Vazquez…since we already know he can’t.
On LaRoche, UZR +5 is a half win above average, not replacement. I agree he’s not a plus plus defender. I do think his bat is going to be much better than average this year. This is not from reading old prospect lists. This is from viewing with my own eyes what he did in 2009. With his swing, there’s no reason he should be the kind of streaky hitter his brother is, and if he can hit just .250 during the down times instead .190, he is going to be very good. He follows the classic “bursts of brilliance” you see with guys that can break out.
-
I think the competition between Cedeno and Crosby will be the closest to actual competition for that job that you will likely get. Truthfully, I don’t know how it’s going to turn out as I’m not high on either one of them. I see that as a real test of the theory that you can sign 2 players of the same level and play the hotter hand to get more production out of them than each of their current levels. In case you think I’m joking about that, it was discussed in a fangraphs article sometime in the last few months.
-
Who else would you like to have seen if they could hit that didn’t get auditioned? I really can’t think of anyone you might be referring to.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 21, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
"Brooks was probably the only guy that could hold a 3B spot with a .723 career OPS"
Pedro Feliz hasn’t had an OPS over .720 since 2004, and he’ll be starting next year. Adam Kennedy has one in the last four seasons, and he’ll be starting next year. Brandon Inge has a career .699 OPS, and he’ll be starting next year. Jhonny Peralta had a .690 OPS with below-average defense in 2009, and he’ll be starting next year.
Etc.
Is LaRoche a huge stud right now? No. Is he better for us than someone like Mark Teahen? Indisputably.
Why should we let an inferior player "win" a job in spring training...
…rather than put the best possible team on the field? I don’t care whether Doug Bernier hits .700 in spring training – I don’t think he should be the starting third baseman.
If it’s a case where two options are legitimately very close on actual skill, as with the last bullpen spot, fine, hold a competition. But if you think one guy’s better than the other, you aren’t obligated to shoot yourself in the foot for the sake of ideals.
The Pirates...
the last 2 seasons…have shown very little willingness to put the best possible team on the field every day.
It's also worth bearing in mind...
…that they did very similar things with Ohlendorf last offseason. How many of us thought the front office considered him too much of a lock for a job in the rotation, based on his past performance? I sure did, and look how that turned out.
Kerrigan
Also gave Morton and Hart some kudos for coming in early and working hard all winter. I’ve heard a bunch of positive stuff about Morton.
If Kerrigan is to be believed...
our staff should have about a 4.00 ERA this season. Everybody’s been working hard. Everyone is positive. We’ll see.
Other painful habits of Pirates management
We gave scholarships to ABrown, Redman, and Duffy, and others, based on small samples of really good work. How’d they turn out?
Also, there’s this Bradenton Herald article, pointing out mechanical changes they began making during the 2009 season. I’m fine with not giving No Relation an upper hand based on a handful of good starts last year. It’s been noted several times that Hart’s stuff is better. So if he’s really ironed things out, and looks good, I’m fine with them giving the nod to whoever has the better actual potential, not the guy who had a better stretch of Aug/Sept games, or better Spring.
I'm tired of winter.
Let the games begin!
Humpty Dumpty sate on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall;
Threescore men and threescore more,
Cannot place Humpty dumpty as he was before.
If 120 men couldn't do it, then it couldn't be done.
Off topic but a couple notes from day 3 of spring training
Players took the field for the morning stretch and long-toss throwing program at 10:00 under cloudy skies and temps in the 50’s. The final 30 minutes of the workout included a few drops of rain.
Today was the second bullpen session for the following pitchers (Ross Ohlendorf, Paul Maholm, Kevin Hart, D.J. Carrasco, Jeff Karstens, Jack Taschner, Steven Jackson, Bryan Morris, Brad Lincoln, Donnie Veal, Chris Jakubauskas, Justin Thomas, Anthony Claggett and Virgil Vasquez). Those 14 pitchers threw between 40-45 pitches during their session.
The workout was much of the same as yesterday.
Pitchers participated in fielding and bunting drills. Those who didn’t throw, conditioned and were off the fields by 11:45.
All pitchers were finished by 12:05.
After their throwing program and catching bullpens, the catchers took batting practice, conditioned and were done by 12:25.
Various position players took batting practice from 10:45 to 11:45 (four groups/15 minutes each) and were off the fields by 12:10.
Infielder/Outfielder Delwyn Young reported to camp today and participated in drills with the rest of the position players, which also included infielder Aki Iwamura and outfielder Ryan Church for the first time.
A total of 60 of the 66 players have already reported – three days prior to the first official full-squad workout – which is scheduled for Tuesday.
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