Post-Gazette Attacks Bob Nutting in Open Letter
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 4, 2010 7:25 PM EST
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PrintThe Post-Gazette takes more shots at the Pirates' ownership in this open letter to Bob Nutting:
Still, your family has had an ownership stake in the Pirates for 14 years and you've been the controlling owner since January 2007. Not once during the Nuttings' involvement has the team had a winning season. The Pirates' streak of 17 losing campaigns exceeds any run of futility in the history of professional sports. It is, no doubt, as frustrating for you as it is for the fans.
The difference between you and the other Pirates faithful, though, is you can do something about it.
Yeah! Yeah man yeah! 'Course, the Post-Gazette itself also used to have an ownership stake in the Pirates, so by their logic, they could have done something about it too. But instead, they wrote ridiculous puff pieces like this one about "exciting prospects" like never-was Victor Mercedes. And this one, an absurd Dave Littlefield hero piece that literally ends, "What if Littlefield hadn't done a good job?" And nearly every Q+A, which sought to convince the masses that whatever inane thing Littlefield had done that week was actually pure genius. Littlefield had the Pirates circling the drain then, but you never would have known it from the Post-Gazette. And yet now that the Pirates are actually trying to deal with the problems that Littlefield created for the Bucs when they were partially owned by the Post-Gazette, the P-G editorial board just can't bash them enough. More from today's editorial:
That change could come sooner if you were open to the reported offer by Penguins co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle to buy the baseball team. Your insistence that the Pirates are not for sale would seem to put an end to the whole idea. Let's hope not.
As a sports owner powerhouse, Lemieux-Burkle has been able to put the necessary money into the hockey team to keep top talent on the ice. To no one's surprise, the Pirates and Penguins are poles apart in terms of image, success and symbols of Pittsburgh.
I don't know anything about hockey, and even I know that's misleading. Lemieux and Burkle fielded a number of inexpensive and very bad teams before the NHL instituted a salary cap. But they built with young talent (just as the Pirates are currently doing), won the Sidney Crosby lottery, and got to compete on a level playing field once a salary cap was established.
Just to be clear, I would have no problem with Lemieux and Burkle buying the Pirates. I couldn't care less if Bob Nutting is in charge. But I also think it's pretty likely that Lemieux and Burkle would look around, assess the situation and allow their GM to keep doing what Neal Huntington is now doing, which is to rebuild the team from the ground up. Plowing a bunch of money into payroll right now, which is what so many fans seem to want Nutting to do, isn't Lemieux and Burkle's style, and it wouldn't be too likely to significantly help right now either. As owners, Lemieux and Burkle would probably be fine. But neither they nor Nutting deserve the breathless idiocy and sanctimony that have been coming from the Post-Gazette since the paper broke the news about Lemieux's interest in buying the team.
(Thanks to Novelist for jogging my memory about the Post-Gazette's former ownership role.)
UPDATE: This is pretty funny.
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Of all the columns and, now, editorials I’ve seen jumping on the Mariomania bandwagon, I have yet to see a single one acknowledge any of the following:
—Not only did the Pens launch a major salary dump after Leburkle took over, in contrast to the Pirates, they got nothing in return for Jagr, Kovalev et al.
—The Pens finished last during Leburkle’s first three seasons.
—The Pens had a bottom-feeding payroll during Leburkle’s first four seasons.
—The Pens’ payroll didn’t increase until after the NHL got a payroll cap.
—Leburkle never put their own money into the franchise but instead spent only out of team revenue.
If you can’t even acknowledge these issues, you don’t have an opinion worth the paper it’s written on.
You will never convince the people at whom this post is aimed
Of all the reasons for which we should despise Littlefield, what sits at the top of the list is that both he an Bonifay wore out the phrases “We have a plan,” and “We’re going to build from within.” Those phrases no longer have any traction with the yinzers, and nothing will ever convince them they are wrong. Nothing.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.”
— Albert Einstein
It's a good day to be a Pirate
I got into a debate
with what seemed to be a knowledgeable Penguins fan about your first point, and the explanation was that LeBurkle knew a salary cap was coming and didn’t want to be tied up with expensive long-term deals for Kovalev, Straka etc. That makes sense but it doesn’t excuse getting nothing for them, and it meant subjecting Penguins fans to five years of terrible hockey (counting the lockout; they were awful for a year after too), but I suppose Penguins fans would now say it was worth it to land Crosby and Malkin and a Cup and a new arena (though it will be interesting to see how many of those same fans can ever afford a ticket into the Stately Pleasure Dome, and how loudly they’ll whine about it).
I imagine this is what Florida Marlins fans are used to as well.
Anyway, it’s absurd to think the Pirates would suddenly bloat the payroll to $250 million because Burkle has $3.5 billion, though I’m sure that’s exactly what many yinzers think. LeBurkle aren’t in business to flush money down toilets. Therefore, they must be interested because they see a franchise on the rise where someone already laid the groundwork for success, and they think they can get in on the cheap for a property that might be worth double or triple the investment in a few years.
Dejan seems like a good and reasonable guy. I wonder if his own paper embarrasses him.
So the Pens had their own plan, to wait for the cap. The Pirates have theirs, to wait until they can build through the farm system and avoid paying Jason Bay $18M to miss half the 2012 season with bad knees while leaving them with too little money to extend Andrew McCutchen. But it was OK for the Pens to dump all their good players for nothing, and it’s not OK for the Pirates to trade theirs for prospects, just because the Pirates don’t have the exact same circumstances, even though their plan is at least as logical. Compared to the people who completely ignore the Pens’ salary dumping, this line of reasoning is an improvement from 1 to 1.2 on the 1-10 logic scale.
by WTM on Feb 4, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
Wilbur: What kind of bird is that in your picture?
I worked with a guy in Japan for several years who was crazy about bird watching. It was something he did to get out of the Tokyo concrete jungle. We used to call him “tori baka”, which means something like “crazy about birds”.
How much are you into bird watching? Are you only into your local area or do you do some traveling?
Red-necked Tanager
I do a lot of traveling. Went to Venezuela a month ago to look for birds, among other things, for instance. I’m not sure that qualifies as crazy. Going to Papua New Guinea probably does.
Red-necked Tanager
As a native West Virginian, I’m pretty sure I’m insulted.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 4, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
He said "tanager"
not “teenager.”
You’re a few years past that anyway.
Of course that's true.....
but the point is until you win, you don’t win. So, if the system is bereft of talent it takes time to get to a point where you have enough talent to compete and win. The idiots who crucify the FO expect immediate success which is beyond realistic. The PG only adds to the “breathless idiocy” with their thoughtless, uneducated and unresearched Open Letter.
A plan is in place which some even think is the best blueprint in the game. http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove09/insider/news/story?id=4869229
Let’s wait another year or two and see how it plays out.
Once again
Apples and oranges in comparing the financial climate of the NHL of yesterday to MLB of today. The Penguins were forced to open their books due to mismangement and bankruptcy before Lemieux came to be owner.
I’m still skeptical of anything the Pirates put out there in regards to financial data, especially with all the recent chatter about the subject from all outlets.
1 cup 2 finals
speaks for its self, also when they were picking top 5 they made no mistakes. this really is a no brainer, 17 yrs come on, lets move on with championship ownership buying the team. also 92% were for having a championship winning ownership buy the pirates . leburckle are self made men with plenty of money, unlike nutting who born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
'position flex-ability, yea baby' austin powers
I also would have accepted “me.” (Meaning me me, not me as in you, although I don’t doubt your awesomeness).
"Only who can prevent forest fires?"
“You chose ‘you’, referring to me. That’s incorrect: the correct answer is ‘you’ ".
Jason
The Hanging Curve
LOL very nice. One of my top 10 episodes. My friends and I still love to say “I’ll tell you what they’re not here for: The mountain music festival” whenever someone says something like, “What are these guys doing here?”
that
made me LOL for sure.
dtoddwin—it’s from the Simpsons—they are at some ranger station and there is a Smokey the Bear robot who asks the question. Lisa has the buttons “you” and “me” to answer with.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Thank God
there was not a link to 1Cup 2 Girls.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 5, 2010 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
So right.
These editorials keep getting worse. This is about the sixth since Dejan first had to wash his hands of their “breathless idiocy.” (Which is picture perfect, indeed.) Didn’t they backtrack on the last one? I thought we were done with these.
This team would probably be in bad shape without the past two years’ moves. It’s not certain, of course, but at this point the plausibility should be plain enough for the people who cover it for a living.
by Brother Anthony on Feb 4, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Damn...
I was trying to get away with not reading a single line of that editorial. But then Charlie had to include excerpts.
With that in mind, I can’t wait to NOT read the rest of it.
"Straight ball I hit very much, but curveball, bats are afraid." - Pedro Cerrano
My big problem with this editorial
Yes, I realize editorial board pieces are generally unsigned, but that doesn’t make it right.
Even in this “open letter”, they sign it “Sincerely, More than a few Pirates fans”.
That is just gutless.
I think I’m going to move to Pittsburgh for the summer and hold a sign up at games calling for the firing of John Robinson Block. Or maybe just “Who Is John Block?”
That might be too obscure of an Ayn Rand reference.
I’m taking a stab that the reference is that by holding up the sign you’re insinuating Block did go on strike, which explains the noticeably poor quality of these editorials? If so, well done.
Well...
It could be a double-entendre. It could mean what you have taken it to mean, and it could also mean “Who the hell is John Block?” Like I said, it’s probably too obscure to use effectively.
Atlas Shrugged
Mark,
…Not too obscure. It’s just that John Block probably has a profound contempt for anything Randian. The “Pointy-Headed” tend to be the exact opposite of hero “John Galt”. They are collectivists.
I have to be honest:
I think it would be really cool to see Mario Lemieux own the Pirates and the Penguins.
But I also recognize that nothing would change in terms of the Pirates’ developmental and financial models, so “cool” is where it starts and stops.
Too bad that most Pittsburgh sports fans aren’t as smart as I am.
by Kidspud on Feb 4, 2010 8:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions
to be fair, I think the nutting family should shoulder a fair load of the blame for the last 14 years of pirates futility… the degree of the nuttings’ mismanagement, lack of oversight and ultimate inability to produce a quality product can certainly be argued, but to simply dismiss their role in the proceedings and pretend that they didn’t happen is foolish… this era of blunders and failure certainly gives me pause when I consider my confidence that the franchise will be able to turn its well-regarded young talent into productive major league players… it makes me question and even doubt whether ownership will put money into the product when the time is right… and even if the post-gazette had an ownership interest as well (one substantially smaller than the nutting family, IIRC), it makes none of these points any less valid when the PG points them out…
now having said that, the PG’s solution to the pirates’ competitiveness problem immediately conjures images of the underpants gnomes… step one: let mario and burkle buy the pirates… step two: ??? … step three: win!
which is to say that I’d like the PG to be a little more specific about why mario would make the pirates winners… what is step two and why will mario be able to pull it off when bob nutting can’t? yes, mario has been a successful NHL owner (thanks in large part to some fortunate bounces of the ping pong balls)… but does that mean he would succeed at baseball as well? I mean… I understand that the newspaper business is struggling… maybe the PG should bring in some successful bloggers to run the paper! Good at one thing = good at something kinda related, right? hey charlie! wanna run a newspaper?
… but more to the point, what is the mysterious step two – presumably something different from the current efforts – that the PG would like the team’s owner take? (no matter who the owner may be)…
by Captain Easychord on Feb 4, 2010 9:08 PM EST reply actions
Good post. I guess a lot depends on how you frame what the Pirates have done under Coonelly/Huntington compared to what happened before that. To me, it’s night and day, which is consistent with the idea that Nutting finally figured out that Kevin McClatchy wasn’t running the team well, got McClatchy out of the picture and started taking more of a role himself. That it took so freaking long to get McClatchy/Littlefield to stop screwing things up is indeed something Nutting deserves some blame for. I’m not really sure that’s something to weigh too heavily going forward, though, since things have been so much better since he started overseeing baseball operations, as opposed to having McClatchy do it.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 4, 2010 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
The premise of all of these articles is that Nutting is to blame for most of the last 17 years. Do we know for a fact that Nutting had a big a say as we all think? I imagine he did, but then again, he might not have. McClatchy was always the guy I associated ownership with for most of the Bonifay/Littlefield reign.
A thread about this was posted on a Steelers MB I read. One guy actually argued that, even though the Pirates have been making good moves and are finally doing things the right way, Nutting should sell the team anyway because “it’s been 17 years now.”
In the same thread, the poster declared that Nutting is not serious about winning if we don’t draft Bryce Harper if he falls to the Pirates. His source for how awesome Harper is was SI.
I had someone tell me on a Pitt football MB the other day that the Pirates traded for Matt Morris so that…. how did he put it? Quoting him: “You do know that they (the Pirates) were under the minimum salary limit for maximum revenue sharing eligibility at the time they made that trade, right? That trade was made specifically for the purpose of bumping the team salary up to the appropriate levels to max out on the revenue sharing that particular year.”
Unless that’s common knowledge that I missed, and my understanding of revenue sharing is waaaay off, then that’s a pretty big whiff on his part
So my ultimate point is that people who post on message boards are idiots. Er, wait….
So they spent $13.5M on Morris to get, what, and extra $3M? $5M? $10M? in revenue sharing?
Pretty damn clever.
Well not only that, but does team payroll have anything to do with revenue sharing in the first place? I thought it was purely based on revenues, which would have nothing to do with payroll. But I could be mistaken
No, it doesn't
But even if it does, your friend’s thinking is, uh, odd.
by WTM on Feb 5, 2010 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
I had someone tell me on a Pitt football MB the other day that the Pirates traded for Matt Morris so that…. how did he put it? Quoting him: "You do know that they (the Pirates) were under the minimum salary limit for maximum revenue sharing eligibility at the time they made that trade, right? That trade was made specifically for the purpose of bumping the team salary up to the appropriate levels to max out on the revenue sharing that particular year."
And ownership was so happy with that “crafty” trade that about a month later it fired the man who executed it…
17 years
You’re talking about people who don’t even know the Nuttings had no interest in the Pirates for part of that time.
by WTM on Feb 4, 2010 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
Nutting’s so bad he destroyed the team retroactively. It’s a wonder we still have the 1979 championship.
But on the other side of the coin,
Nutting’s also responsible for the Pirates’ five World Series titles. Too bad that makes me a shill for the front office.
Cuyler to the Cubs
and Ramirez to the Cubs. Say, maybe this idea of a trans-temporal Nutting ain’t so nutty.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
True enough. I should have separated that time period out in my post when I lumped Nutting into it, but my point still holds. I don’t really know how much control he had during the McClatchy days, and even if he did I don’t really care anymore because this FO is so markedly different. If he learned from his ways, good for him.
While one can definitely argue...
that FC/NH have a different approach than Littlefield and friends…until there are ACTUAL RESULTS…that doesn’t make their approach better…just different. I’m hopeful that it will produce results…but until those results occur…just call me a skeptic.
I’d like to see someone point out actual RESULTS where this management team has done something that the previous administration had not done. You can’t use the Lynchburg championship…because Lynchburg also won in 2002 when Littlefield ran the organization. As well as championships at Hickory in 2002 and 2004.
Yes…this system is deeper and has more potential than it did 3 years ago. But potential is all it is right now. The players that were acquired and drafted have to actually perform…and not much more than a couple of them have been performing above average to this point. I agree that Littlefield and friends deserved to be let go…and that they were a very bad thing for the organization. But the new guys haven’t made it to the point yet where they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I certainly don't disagree with you
You’re right in that the NH/FC plan has to show results sooner rather than later; while I feel pretty good about NH’s ability to evaluate talent, the jury is still certainly out. What we can conclude is that the approach they’re taking is the right one.
We know there’s a chance the players NH has acquired won’t pan out, the team will keep losing, and the Bucs will have to find a new GM that can get quality talent. But we also know that the chances of Littlefield’s approach bearing fruit were slim to none.
And as for the Lynchburg/Hickory championships, I’m a recent Bucs convert, so I could be wrong, but I remember reading that those titles were won with guys who were way too old for their levels competing against guys several years younger. Last year’s Lynchburg team contained legitimate prospects.
recent bucs convert?
I’m sure that’s a small fraternity… and how does one become a bucs convert? And what did you convert from? I’ve got lot’s of questions. Please tell the story.
Very small fraternity
Grew up in Boston as a Red Sox fan. (I have the oh-so-clever handle of FormerSoxFan when I occasionally post on the PBC Blog.)
Moved to PGH about 4 1/2 years ago for grad school, and have stayed since. I sorta started following the Bucs as my “NL team,” but became more and more disenchanted with the Sox and their ownership (yes I see the irony).
There’s a sense that the Red Sox are doing fans a favor by letting them pay the highest ticket prices in MLB to see a game. Then you have the Pink Hat Nation, bandwagon jumpers, and inflated sense of self-importance . . . and here we are. Probably go to 10-15 Bucs games each year, follow them religiously. Still root for the Sox in the playoffs, but it’s not the same.
I will say this, though: I probably wouldn’t become the fan I have become if the Bucs were still so horribly managed like they were under Littlefield. Even before I ever moved here, I knew this was a poorly-run franchise. I doubt I would’ve gotten on board if I didn’t have faith in The Plan.
I understand where youre coming from
I cant watch the Penguins anymore because of the “bandwagon jumpers and inflated sense of self-importance” which is why all this Leburkle crap has me really disgusted.
I’d really like to know what these people were doing from 2001-2006. I certainly don’t recall seeing them at the arena…
Just try to remember those bandwagon fans are paying for Malkin and Sid’s contracts. The salary cap keeps it a fair competition, but you still need stupid fans that are willing to throw tons of money at the team if you want to be a top team.
They bother me mostly because they have the same idiotic ideas about Hockey that they do about Football, and they’ll come over and bring them to the Pirates if they win. It’s the price of success, but on the other hand it is also a driving factor of that success.
One good thing to come out if it though...
I was 11 years old when baseball went on strike. I quickly lost interest in baseball (I stopped playing I think a year or two later, but usually watched most of the playoffs) and didnt come back until around the hockey lockout. And not only that, but I also took up an interest in college basketball (March Madness has to be the best time of the sporting year) to help fill that void.
Now, I may have come back to the Penguins, but when they got lucky and won the lottery on Crosby it all went down hill for me from there. I dont know if there is a worse thing in this city than a know-it-all yinzer Penguins fan. If youve ever been to a local bar and asked to watch a Pirates game lately I’m sure youve run into them. They all have an opinion and they arent afraid to let you hear about it. Im just sick of it, and frankly Im better off without them. Its a shame its come to that, but whatcha gonna do?
Wow....
tough crowd. The Pens have a lot of die hard fans who’ve been around a long time. Every winner is going to have people jump on the bandwagon. Don’t crucify the team for it.
Change the Pens fan part to sick of Yinzer sports fans and I’d agree. Yinzer Pirates fans and Steeler fans are just as bad.
It’s obvious to them (don’t know why I don’t get it) that if any Pittsburgh team has Owners, GM, Coach or players that want to win they will win everything, every year. I mean they do play in Pittsburgh after all. Also it’s pretty obvious that if you either pay people more money or pretend you are living in the 70’s you will have much more success. That is unless it’s hockey, in that case you just need a Mullet.
Maybe I went a bit overboard...
It probably is just most yinzer fans in general. I guess I’ve had about enough of people using the Penguins rebuild as a point of comparison to the Pirates. I mean, it’s a lot easier to rebuild a franchise when you get a ton of high picks AND then get the best player in a generation fall into your laps by way of lottery. On top of that, 18/19 year old kids can’t join a major league squad and make a difference like they can in hockey.
I may have been a little out of line when I aimed my comments strictly at Pens fans, but I think you can understand where I was going with that. It certainly doesn’t help now that Leburkle are sticking their noses in the Bucs business. I like Mario as much as the next guy, but if you believe (as I do) that the Penguins leaked this story then it’s pretty classless and they shouldn’t get a free pass just because they won the cup last year.
I think the paper got a hold of the story and kept it waiting for a big moment. Offers like that aren’t secret, and yeah if it was the pens who leaked it then that’s a crap move.
I totally understand, and I hate those fans as well. Because of them tickets go up and I have to plan out way in advance going to games. I used to just call people and go at the last minute. I don’t feel the same connection with this team either that I felt then. Those kids played their hearts out and were way over their head, but they were living their dream playing hockey and I believed in them. Saw them win games they had no business winning, beating teams that were mocked for losing to the Pens because the Pens out hustled them.
People called for the Pens to leave town, or to be contracted like people do for the Pirates. When the Pirates are winning and everyone comes back They’ll talk about what great fans they are and how they followed the team in the 60’s 70’s or 90’s and what a great team that was and blah blah blah. At least Baseball it is easier to get tickets throughout the season than in Hockey, but the season tickets are going to go up in price a lot. But to see some of the kids we have now take part in a playoff race or make the playoffs, I’d love that.
I still love Orpik and Fleury the most of this team’s players, they were here before the lockout. I remember how terrible Orpik was and Fleury making the most boneheaded mistakes to go with the most brilliant saves. They are all that’s left of those teams now.
Yeah, I hate it when a team gets really good and all those people show up to watch them.. that sucks.
I believe we are discussing people who go on and on about how worthless the team is until they win and then act like they’ve been fans all along. I started following the Steelers when they were good, and the Pens I didn’t even know about thill they were good with Mario.
The fans who go crazy calling for owners to sell the team or talk about how the young kids are crap then come act like super loyal fans without learning anything about the sport in the process.
You might want to look up a few posts in this conversation before posting stupidity.
Unless you are being serious here, in which case ignore everything but the posting stupidly part.
It's funny...
fairweather fan has such a negative connation to it. I know us diehard fans will feel like we deserve some extra credit when this team finally becomes competitive (whenever that is) but the fairwhether fans have just as much value as any. We need every fan to show up in order to increase attendance and revenue if we ever hope to keep any of our stars through some of their free agent years.
Following the team...
…no longer makes me want to climb the rotunda and start sniping front office workers as they head out of the park at the end of the day. So that’s a definite improvement, right there.
More seriously: Nothing wrong with witholding ultimate judgment until we see actual results, as long as you’re willing to acknowledge that positive signs are really all we can expect at this point in the game (which you seem to be).
Realit y Check
The Post-Gazette can be compared to a breed of dinosaur which is in fact utterly doomed to a miserable extinction. This paper like many other paper media sources has outlived its usefulness. These talking point jabs at ownership are just meant to entice an anti-ownership fan base to stick with the Gazette. The new reality that the Gazette doesn’t factor in is that the informed reader no longer relies on piss-poor articles from the Gazette. The informed reader who by the way makes up about 80% of the market searches for articles that are fact based and opinionated on the internet! The only chance the Gazette has to survive is if they are added to the second stimulus and then counted as jobs saved. I’m just not sure how the federal government will be able to justify giving money to CORPORATIONS’ (newspapers) whose job is to provide the facts and act as a legitimate news organization. What will happen if these CORPORATIONS (papers) don’t promote or endorse a viewpoint of the current organization in power.
Yeah,
but without the PG, where would we get a lot of the info about the Pirates in the first place?
There has to be a happy medium to keep this medium in business.
They can’t be ignored, though, because of their influence. They need to be refuted at every turn, as Charlie has done here.
by Adam Reynolds on Feb 5, 2010 5:23 AM EST up reply actions
An Open Letter
I haven’t read the PG article, but I’m 99% sure I know what it says without ever reading it. The paper is still useful for the unique access it provides to local events, though it’ll be sad to watch the PG slowly decline towards a paper that I used to deliver, the North Hills News Record. See, I’m moving to TX shortly and I’m excited to watch a team like the Rangers, especially in the next few years. I’m not sure if I’ll ever convert my allegiance, but I’m excited to watch a different team nonetheless. The Rangers have the caliber of farm system I expect from the Pirates in a year or two as long as we keep bringing in interesting prospects, not just from the first round but from several rounds like last year’s crop and if we continue to sign and develop interesting Latin American players like Starling Marte. Its not the expensive Young or Blalock who make the Rangers intriguing, but guys like Smoak, Perez, Feliz and Andrus who provide both the excitement and the hope. I look forward to tracking the Buccos stock pile of minor league talent for the next couple of years. However, I will be forced to do so from a distance, which I guess is better for my impatience and desire to watch major league baseball. Remember, it’ll be easier to ignore the pandering of newspapers towards their elderly readership once Quentin Miller and ZVR start throwing again. I’m looking forward to checking the box scores.
If you are going to be in Dallas this summer
The Pirates are playing a 3 game series. There’s a group of us going.
Sweet. Count me in! Also, someone just explained to me the wonder that is MLBTV. Heck, I could end up watching more games.
by Chad Bahamas on Feb 5, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
I get a hearly laugh out of the PBC comments:
If there is a man who doesn’t care what others think, it’s Bob Nutting. I’ve heard of thick skin, but that man has the hide of a rhinocerous.
Nutting does care somewhat about his public image, IMO, but not enough to scrap a reasonable plan by Huntington (granted I won’t say “great plan” yet) and put in an terrible blueprint that the casual fans and the insane editorial board would love.
The difference is between LeBurkle and Nutting
Over a decade of salary dumping is too much. the first youth movement watched Arimas Ramirez dumpedbefore the age 25.
The Bucs long term plans (remeber the series of 5 – year rebuilds?) seems to be to get a new GM and start re-rebuilding.
Get a great new field, and the idea was to field a team that would compete. when did that happen – or is that considered to be the great Jason Kendall signing?
Leburkle did throw money at the Penguins prior to the salary cap – it just didn’t mesh.
I will always be a Pittsburgh sports fan, but each year I watch less of the Pirates. Sad really. The only games I go to anymore are games where I want to see opposing players.
Wow. Nutting was in charge when Ramirez was traded, and the Penguins “threw money” at players before the salary cap. If grasp of reality were hotness you’d be Rosie O’Donnell.
Actually – may have been just after – palffy, LeClair,etc….
And I wasn’t suggesting Nutting was in charge then, but I see similarities. Getting rid of 24 years olds to make way for a youth movement just means when they develop, they will just be traded for upside youth.
I don’t need to see Nutting any more than I needed to see McLatchey – Youth is in the system, but not on our field.
Wait. You mean to tell me that the Pirates have been trading people who were once 24?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 5, 2010 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
Evidently 27 is way out of prime. We have been trading average players for players who may be average some day, with possible upside potential. the deal is that they never establish.
Bay, Nady, McLouth outfield – not too expensive
Infield was okay as well – not overly expensive
Not superstars but okay.
Tell me in two years how our team is. Laughing stock of baseball.
And Milledge’s best season was 2008 where he batted 268 with an OPS of 732. Nady’s was the same year, batting 305 with an OPS of 867…
Milledge has a history of character issues and injuries. Nady has a history of injuries. But yes, Milledge was superior in 2009.
Come on lloyd...
do a little research. Milledge’s issue have been well documented and are not a big deal at all. I agree that claiming he is greather than anyone at this point is kind of silly since he hasn’t accomplished anything of note yet but you have to admit that at this stage in their careers we are better off with Milledge and his potential over Nady. Don’t dicsount that fact that Milledge had a +14.3 UZR in 2009 and managed to accumulate .7 WAR despite only playing in 65 games. Nady had a -.1 WAR in 2009 so if you really wanted to distort facts you could say that Milledge is greater than Nady. I won’t make that claim but I’m more than comfortable saying I’d would rather have Milledge and his potential right now over Xavier Nady,
Whaddya mean?! He high-fived the fans after a HR!! He’s a terrorist!! He should be in Gitmo, not in left field!!!
The point is
his ‘character issues’ are known to be over-exaggerated, and he’s been nothing but well mannered since coming over to the Pirates.
I’ve been kinda skeptical about this stuff all along. NY can be a poisonous atmosphere. Look at Bonilla—as far as I know, he was a model citizen in Pgh. and FL, but it all went sour in NY. And the Nats had serious clubhouse problems, with no leadership at the top and a bunch of veteran malcontents, plus one downright dangerous dude. The Pirates seem to be a good place for Milledge and McCutchen seems like a stellar model for any young player.
by WTM on Feb 7, 2010 8:29 AM EST up reply actions
I hear he's interested in music, too.
These young kids, these days, with their hippin’, and their hoppin’…
i admit, I'm a nitpicker
1. i beg to differ – sure he did some knucklehead stuff as a rookie, I can get over that. Some of the other stuff following him around is cause for concern.
2. For the PBC, I’d prefer to have Milledge. For a team looking to compete this year I’d prefer Nady.
3. It’s silly, that’s the point. Nady appears to be a has been, and Milledge at this stage, is a never-was.
Fair enough...
it is unfortunate that building for the future often comes at the expense of the present but I blame that on Mr. Littlefield. We could have had a Nady but NH wants to let the young guys play in hopes of going from never-was to something hopefully better than what we’ve had. I personally think that is the correct decision but I do admit that it is painful watching this team lose every year. One other thing to point out is that Nady just came off of his second TJ surgery which is unprecedented for a position player. There is no telling whether or not Nady will be a shell of his former self let alone outperform Milledge.
As far as the stuff with Milledge he has admitted that he was immature and took things for granted. He appears to be doing things the right way with the Burg. Only time will tell whether he has truly matured or not.
In case you are not getting what Matt is saying
When we had the outfield last year of Milledge/Cutch/Jones, the team would not have won any more games if we would have kept the outfield of Bay/McLouth/Nady.
That’s pretty much just a true statement. The players we put on the field during those games outperformed the other guys during that same period.
Nevetheless, the Pirates lost a lot of those games. And that was not due to not having “the most productive outfield of the first half of 2008” on the field.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 6, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
So true, neither outfield was competitive. And in all honesty, I’m excited about Milledge/Cutch/Jones.
Actually...
If you use the WAR each one accumulated in the time they spent in Pittsburgh, and project what they would have accumulated if they had performed that way over a 150 games, you get this…
Milledge = 2.6 WAR
Cutch = 4.7 WAR
Jones = 4.8 WAR
Similarly, the Pirate’s 2008 dream outfield actual WAR values from 2008, both with the Pirates and after trades…
Bay = 2.9 WAR
McLouth = 3.5 WAR
Nady = 4.0 WAR
I think I would not call our end of 2009 outfield “not competitive”.
But...
you cant just extrapolate it out to 150 game averages. Chris Shelton was on pace to break the HR record after april. Players get worn down playing entire seasons. Major league pitchers adjust to seeing players more than one time. Its a rather crude way to look at it.
I'm not saying they are going to do this over a full season
I’m saying that calling their production in 2009 “not competitive” would be incorrect.
However...
Just to clarify what I really do project, I think Cutch will be around 4.5 WAR, Jones will be around 4.0 WAR, and Milledge will be around 3.0 WAR in 2010.
True. It just wasn’t the fault of the outfield. The problem was the 1B, 2B, SS and sometimes C. And the bullpen sucked bad, which was the biggest problem of all.
Hopefully at least 3 or 4 of those 5 problems will be solved in the coming season. (crossing my fingers)
yep
Bullpen cost a fair few games. >10 in the second half reckon.
by BlindSquirrel on Feb 7, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
OK
Check back in two years and lets see how good Bay, Nady, McLouth, Wilson, Sanchez or any pitchers we traded away are.
My goodness, they all stunk last year.
There's a difference between calling a plan "rebuilding"...
…and actually rebuilding. The first part of a rebuild is to increase spending on amateur talent acquisition, and Littlefield never did that.
The current rebuild is the first one the franchise has actually attempted since 1998.
This is my favorite take on the Lemieux situation (mild language):
Penguins ‘source’ Picks Malicious Time and Ruins Celebration for Maz and 60s Bucs
AHHH
Who to say leburckle won’t keep huntington and his scouting staff. coonley would be gone and maybe some blogging interns . With rich new championship ownership huntington would have more money to spend on guys like sano and harper and some super star free agents and be able to sign some our best players to long term contracts. This is a no brainer and a win win situation.
'position flex-ability, yea baby' austin powers
"more money"
The Penguins’ payroll averaged less than $30 million per year in the four years leading up to the lockout/salary cap. Why would Burkle suddenly start throwing money around if he bought the Pirates?
3.5 billion
We have 3.5 billion reasons to want burkle as an owner, come on 17 yrs. .What with you guys are you afraid to root for a winner.
'position flex-ability, yea baby' austin powers
What do
blogging interns have to do with anything?
What notable examples do you have of rich ownership buying a team that has been losing for a decade or more, suddenly dumping all their personal cash into player payroll, and thus transforming the franchise into a winner?
Jason
The Hanging Curve
There was Tom Hicks. Well, except for the winning part.
by WTM on Feb 5, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
There is so much optimism in Dallas right now because of the youth movement. It’s amazing. Initially Hicks wanted to compete like the Yankees. He finally got it right when he decided to treat the Rangers like a small market team and compete like Tampa Bay.
Last year, people here were literally calling talk shows for Millwood to be traded for prospects so the Rangers could bring up more of their pitching prospects. They only had like 9 rookie pitchers on the team last year.
Uh, no...
If you look back at the spending habits of the Pens since Lemiuex and Burkle bought the team, you’ll see that they haven’t spent more than their revenue stream allows until just recently. Specifically, they did not go over a modest budget until around 2008.
To the best of my knowledge, Burkle was not putting in much (if any) of his own money until (1) the arena deal was finalized (because that guaranteed an increase in revenue from the luxury boxes, so he’d be getting that money back), (2) they had a need for it (resigning Crosby, Malkin, etc), and (3) they were close enough to winning that the money would be well-spent (taking on Hossa’s contract when they traded for him). Prior to that, they had most of their money tied up in cheap, young players and generally only added a few modestly-priced veterans on short-term contracts (I think Gonchar may be the only real exception to this, and even his contract is/has been a very good value) to complement the roster.
In other words, there is absolutely nothing in Burkle’s history to indicate that he’d suddenly pour money into the Pirates major league payroll if he owned the team. Prior to the lockout/cap, he didn’t try to compete with free-spending teams like the Rangers, Red WIngs, Avs, etc, for the top-tier free-agents, although I imagine he easily could have. Instead, the team went cheap and really didn’t start spending until after they started winning.
Ron Burkle may be worth $3.5 billion, but it’s because he’s smart about how he uses it.
Why would
Coonelly (notice spelling) be gone and not Huntingon? Because they are on the right path? And who are these blogging interns you speak of?
“Rich new championship ownership” shows a complete lack of understanding of how and why the Penguins are and have been able to compete.
The rest of your post speaks for itself. The Sano situation has been rehashed ad naseum. Harper will be for the next three months. Ugh.
dude
bottom line Mr. nutting can’t afford to play in this high stakes poker game. Coonelly is a waste of money, huntington has some pedigree from cleveland , interns blog for mlb teams its a pretty well know fact. ps huntington signs sano if burckle is the owner. something like this, here’s 4million kid take or leave it.
'position flex-ability, yea baby' austin powers
What interns blog for Nutting? And your belief about Sano is completely unfounded. Since when did the Pens have to try to convince a prospect to sign? Oh yeah, there’s an international draft in the NHL and a rookie salary cap and bonus cap. So there’s no track record whatsoever. You are just projecting your own desires onto Leburkle, which you should at least have enough self reflection to understand is you are more than 10 years old.
Remember
When Coonelly nixed this deal? We need a team president that lets the GM actually do his job without having to look over his shoulder for approval.
Without looking...
that has to be the rumored Bay and Paulino for Lee, Guittierez and Shoppach deal right? I personally wished we would have pulled the trigger on that because I always liked Lee but who knows how things would have worked out. It does seem like Coonelly has given NH a lot more leeway recently. He let him pull the trigger on McLouth knowing how unpopular the move would be.
You're correct
And doesn’t it kind of prove that the “plan” that everyone refers to has changed over the year? If they were truly committed to rebuilding from the beginning then Bay, Nady, Wilson, Sanchez all should have been gone sooner than they were. Its obvious that this is the right way to do things, but my question is why did it take a year or two to realize that?
They are flexible
They said they considered trading Bay and Nady right away, but their value wasn’t what they would have liked. They decided to let them play to build up their value in 2008, and thought that if the pitching held together, they might even have a chance to surprise some people. Pitching, of course, fell apart, but Bay and Nady did both have excellent seasons as they were hoping.
Sanchez, as you’ll remember, was hurt all 2008 and had a terrible year. So, it was impossible to trade him then. Jack had no internal replacement, and was also injured for large stretches – playing only 87 games.
Even still, I think they were on the fence about keeping Jack and Freddy past 2009. Obviously, since they offered them both contracts to stay, whereas that was not an option they offered to Nady or Bay.
If the team could've gotten value they liked for those players...
…I’m sure they would’ve been gone as soon as the offers were made.
Unfortunately, it takes two to trade.
Of course that's true.....
but the point is until you win, you don’t win. So, if the system is bereft of talent it takes time to get to a point where you have enough talent to compete and win. The idiots who crucify the FO expect immediate success which is beyond realistic. The PG only adds to the “breathless idiocy” with their thoughtless, uneducated and unresearched Open Letter.
A plan is in place which some even think is the best blueprint in the game.
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove09/insider/news/story?id=4869229
Let’s wait another year or two and see how it plays out.
I think that a big part of the problem here...
…is that casual fans of other Pittsburgh sports don’t understand how a farm system works. Draft picks in football and basketball routinely become major contributors in their first season as a pro, and even solid hockey talents don’t take more than a couple of seasons to become NHL-ready. As such, it’s much easier to execute an immediate turnaround in those sports – you draft well for two or three years, and at the end of that time all your picks are in place and producing. In MLB, in contrast, your first year’s picks might be just reaching AAA.
1970
I know how a farm system works, been a fan since 1970, late 60 "and 70 " they had the best farm system in baseball and 2 world championships.
'position flex-ability, yea baby' austin powers
The Pens started their rebuild in 2001 with the draft of MAF. Another problem your having is a lot of these Pens fans just came around in the last 3 years.
Some one up above mentioned that the Pens didn’t make any mistakes, but the did have a few draft blunders. Colby Armstrong as a first rounder didn’t quite pan out the way they wanted it to.
I disagree
He panned out really well when he brought in Hossa. Yes yes I hate Hossa as much as the next Pens fan for the way he lied and manipulated the situation and loved seeing him lose the cup this year, but its hard to argue against the impact the trade had. If for no other reason than it was Ray Shero giving the guys a vote of confidence
The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.
Not sure....
how Hossa lied or manipulated the situation. Please explain. He was a free agent. Edmonton offered him by far the most money. The Penguins offered him a lot of money and more years. And Detroit offered a $7 million one year deal. He wanted to win a Cup and thought Detroit offered the best opportunity.
He didn’t take the most money. He had every right to take whatever offer he wanted. How can you possibly condemn him for this? This is where fans are really assholes. If he doesn’t pick your team he’s a terrible person. They guy gave up tons of money and took a big risk to make the decision he made and he got to Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals. Again please tell me how he lied and manipulated the situation.
This kind of ignorance just bugs the hell out of me.
So, not being a huge hockey fan
I was doing a little research (OK, Wikipedia) about the Pens and their drafts, payrolls, etc. I came to Marc-Andre Fleury’s page, and came to this, from his rookie season:
Fleury shared time with goaltenders Jean-Sébastien Aubin and Sebastien Caron7 and lived up to first-overall-pick expectations early, earning Rookie of the Month honours in October with a 2-2-2 record, 1.96 goals against average (GAA) and .943 save percentage.4 . . . He was loaned to Team Canada for the 2004 World Junior Championships in December and, upon returning with a second consecutive silver medal, he was sent back to the QMJHL on January 29, 2004.7 In light of financial difficulties for the franchise, it is believed Fleury’s $3 million contract bonus, which he would have potentially received if he stayed and met several performance goals, was a factor in the decision to return him to Cape Breton.7 To no avail, Fleury offered to forfeit his bonus in order to remain with the club.9
I know there isn’t an equivalent to the Canadian junior system in baseball, but . . . HOLY CRAP! Can you imagine the ensuing shitstorm if the Bucs sent, say, Alvarez to some junior team to save $3M????
And part of the reason.....
there wasn’t, believe or not, as DK and others constantly say what a great hockey town this is,……..wait for it………wait for it…………….is nobody cared.
Rest assured Pittsburgh is a great sports town. The proof is not in the Steelers or Penguins selling out as so many point to. The proof is in the Pirates attendance not dropping the past five years. DK constantly speculated over the past few years how no one would ever come to see a game if the Pirates traded all their “stars.” Well that was proved unequivocally wrong.
And they will come watch games again this year without the aforementioned stars. Rest assured if the Steelers go 4-12 three years in a row you will be able to walk into Heinz Field scalping a ticket for $10. The same is true of the Penguins. If those teams win they will continue to have a massive and supportive fan base. The fact that the Pirates have a visible and vocal fanbase (whether in support or critical of the team) says volumes about Pittsburgh as a sports town and a baseball town. If and when they win 90 games they’ll get 25-30K a game and top 2 million and it will be glory days. Let’s hope we see it soon.
Of course
And that’s really the case with any town, to an extent. You have cases like the Cubs, but it’s easier for a city with a large population base (and besides, baseball seems to be secondary in a lot of people’s motivation to go to Cubs games). In 1998, I walked up to the ticket counter at Fenway and bought tickets to Pedro’s first start with the Red Sox about a half-hour before the game. Now they’ve sold out every game for six years. You have your diehards on any team, but it’s casual/fairweather fans who ensure sellouts.
I agree...
But when casual/fairweather fans turn into know-it-all fans, then you have a problem. Thats my beef with Penguins fans…I dont know though, maybe thats all Pittsburgh fans…
I remember extremely buyer-friendly scalpers’ markets at Three Rivers for Steelers games in 1991 (one playoff team in the past seven seasons), 1992 (at least early in the year, before everyone realized what they had with Cowher Power!) and 1999 (second consecutive losing season).
Green Bay game this year
Tthe Steelers were coming off 5 straight losses (including three to the Browns/Raiders/KC), but I had a hunch that this would be a good game. So I bought my Dad’s Season tickets for the game ($80 a ticket) and took a few friends as a sort of Christmas present. I should have scalped, 30 minutes before kickoff, tickets were going on StubHub for $30. This is a defending SB champion team, playing a very good team, at a late starting time and tickets are going at less than half face value.
Steelers fans are passionate, but very quick to dismiss the team after a string of bad play. At least that’s my view of Steelers fans in the area.
Agreed
I also jumped on some tickets for the GB game. Steeler fans are the “best in the world” until the team loses a few games. All of a sudden, it’s “Fire Tomlin” and “This team has no heart.”
I went to the Jacksonville playoff loss a few years ago and was amazed at the negativity around me in the stands. Maybe being a Pirate fan allows me to better weather a cold streak without totally freaking out.
That’s weird, I went to that game as well, and despite it being a home playoff game (not something they give away in the NFL), it was fairly easy to get a ticket and the town in general was not optimistic.
The funniest part about it, is that those two games were probably the best two football games I’ve attended at Heinz. The entire second half of that Jax game (we were down three scores at half), everybody stood up, all thirty minutes. Losing was a buzz kill, but great game.
Sorry, I know this is a Pirates blog, but I think part of it is that real Pittsburgh fans get outpriced from Penguins/Steelers games (don’t even get me started on the club sections).
by Maxwell.C on Feb 5, 2010 3:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I have calculated that PNC Park adds up to 10K per game attendance.
If you look at the difference between the Three Rivers’ lean years and now, there is a sizable difference which can be attributed to the venue. The Pirates drew 25K per game when they were winning in the early 90s. I’m pretty sure the attendance will be over 30K when that happens again.
by MarkInDallas on Feb 5, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Rest assured, we cared. But, it is uncommon for a team to keep a guy up instead of lending him to the junior national team. It was somewhat a remarkable thing when Staal made the team instead of being sent down to the minors. Plus major junior hockey is the equivelant of NCAA sports in the states.
I think.....
you’re missing the point. The Pens didn’t want to pay Fleury, that was clear from the get go. But their wasn’t the moral outrage you get with the Pirates. Doesn’t mean they don’t have diehard fans. Maybe it just means they had a grasp of the situation.
Good job Charlie
I did my own rant towards this “open letter” on my blog in a lackluster FJM type of format.
But I didn’t take into account the PG’s ownership stake, and I think I gave Nutting a little too much credit/leniency. I do think there is some fault to be put on the Nutting family as owners. They should have done a better job at oversight, because maybe if they had realized the previous incompetence, they could have done something about it way sooner than 2007.
Either way, that’s the past, and fortunately I agree with what’s going on at the present and am hopeful for the future.
You’ve just been waiting to use that…
by Maxwell.C on Feb 5, 2010 3:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, he waited until Yahoo Sports published almost the exact same sentence.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 5, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
You don't know?
Why doesn’t that surprise me?
If you want Stockholm Syndrome, you could always start with this:
that's funny, even if it's copied (now I'll stir the pot)
But don’t forget these critical axioms for Pirate fans (the real ones, not the yinzer casual fans):
1. Nutting has only run the team for 3 years now, don’t blame anything on him that is the responsibility of the previous regime.
1b. The previous regime was responsible for all 17 years of losing, H1N1, the Hindenburg and male pattern baldness.
2. Trust the current front office, they have a plan.
3. Forget about the other plans by the previous front office (current plan >> former plans).
4. Current front office = smart guys; previous front office = idiots
4b. If you have questions about #4, repeat the following “bell, meares and moskos” disregard “bay, mccutcheon and sanchez”
5. Turn off the part of your brain that says, “wait a second, wasn’t nutting a part of the previous ownership group?”
6. Nutting has all the money he needs and could personally spend on a level that the billionaires could. BUT, billionaires don’t risk any of their personal stake on player salaries.
6b. Ownership wealth has nothing to do with the organizations budget.
6c. The organizations budget has nothing to do with ownership wealth.
7. Nutting could spend money on free agents to put a ML team on the field, but he chooses not to because that’s the plan.
8. Don’t be a yinzer.
9. Real fans are required to attend an appropriate number of games (arbitrarily set by a committee of “non-casual” fans and unpublished by said group).
9b. “casual fan games” (particularly bobblehead or fireworks nights) do not count towards the number of games required in rule #9.
10. Real fans give their tacit approval of “the plan” while the front office delivers a team of AAAA baseball players as it’s current go to market strategy.
11. The owners are not putting any money in their pockets. Seriously, they said so.
12. Forget about the investment of the Pittsburgh area taxpayers, they aren’t showing up to support the team, so they don’t deserve a better product. social contract is a myth
14. Nutting is a businessman, he’s not in the habit of losing money, (although the FO states he’s not currently making money)
15. Nutting will be making money when the team is competitive, even though his payroll will significantly increase as players mature (FO says so). And, his league “income” dollars will decrease as his payroll increases. (don’t try to do the math you just won’t understand it)
16. PBC will make money as a consistently competitive team (ignore the fact that only one small market organization has shown the capacity to do that in the current baseball landscape).
16b. Work on the mental gymnastics of 14-16, you’ll get there, really.
17. Nutting is Sysiphus, but HE get’s the rock over the hill.
18. The formula for getting over the hump is to move into the top half of spending in the MLB draft, develop MLB Players with significantly more success than you have in the past (just wave a magic wand), and spend money when they get close. Piece of cake, why didn’t DL think of that?
19. LeBurkle would do no better than Nutting, look at all those losing seasons before they lucked into the Stanley Cup (how’d they do that in the Igloo by the way?)
19b. How do we know that? We just do.
19c. Cuban would be worse.
20. 17 seasons isn’t really that long.
Logic
Your points are accurate and using your logic the best solution for baseball would be to rid itself of small market teams. You assume that if Cuban or another ownership group took over the team it would be able to increase revenue via winning. Winning does typically influence attendance, but look at the marlins and twins both winners who only have average at best attendance. The pirates in a world series year would be lucky to garner half the attendance and revenue the red sox and yanks do in their mediocre years! Small market teams will remain to be low budget, but some will find ways to compete. The pirates thus far have not figured out modern day baseball economics. How do they accomplish this miraculous feat? Not by spending more $ on free agents, but instead by paying a little extra $ to get excellent scouts, going for high value draft picks, bringing in quality coaches to run minor league teams and spending needed money on markets that develop proven talent (Latin America). The proven formula to success which has been used by the Twins, A’s, Rays and Marlins has finally made its way to the Pirates. I truly believe the Pirates will in the near future compete for the division if they stay the course and allow Mr. Huntington to do his job and revamp the entire organization!
I think Mark In Dallas points out that attendance tracks with spending. Correct me if I’m mistaken Mark.
The Pirates in a WS season (now we’re really dreaming) could garner similar attendance as the Sox (similar park size – bottom two in MLB) but revenue is entirely different, largely based on local TV contracts. One benefit of the LeBurkle offer for PBC was the Bucs/Pens sports network and advertising revenues. This would, in theory, have a significant impact on PBC revenues and the ability to compete with teams in larger markets.
The Pirates may have figured out modern day baseball economics – i.e., make a substantial profit by minimizing expenses and maximizing partner contributions, with little concern for fielding an excellent baseball team. According to Forbes Magazine, the Pirates have shown nice profitability over the last several years. These figures are poo-pooed by members of this site and disavowed by the front office (no distributions, even for taxes for the partners and plowing all money back into the franchise). Nevertheless, the books are not open to the public and thus we are left to speculate what is the reality of the PBC financial situation.
The “proven formula” has resulted in what?
The Marlins have won two titles. But remember that in ‘97 they brought in many high priced free agents to win a WS. They were promptly dismantled in ’98. The PBC is good at the latter, but has not shown any inclination to participate in the former – at least in recent memory. The 2003 team is probably closer to what PBC has in mind – they had a strong base of home-grown talent from the draft and trades of established vets for prospects. In the last 15 years they had 6 seasons finishing above .500 – that’s not the consistent winning that the current leadership aspires to.
The Rays have also been more good than bad. 2007 was a great story with the young rays, bolstered by some good trades, made it through the AL gauntlet to the WS losing to the Phillies. I like that squad, much of it coming through the draft. And I think it’s instructive to look at the Rays successful season. They had never had a winning season (only winning 70 once in their 10 year history) before everything gelled and they had their first winning season, resulting in a WS appearance, followed by winning only 84 games and missing the playoffs. The Rays are now facing the issue of what to do with some of their core players that will be FAs soon (Crawford in particular) and will probably need to trade him and others. I don’t believe the Pirates are looking to replicate a formula that results in 2 winning seasons in 12 years.
The Twins and A’s have similar stories. They’ve been very good in drafting and developing talent. they’ve been disciplined in their approaches and they’ve been relatively successful in making the playoffs. The A’s have had 8 winning seasons in the last 15 years, making the postseason 5 times and getting to the ALCS once (swept by Detroit) – they are 1-6 in postseason series. The Twins have seen similar success, also with 8 winning seasons in 15 years. They made the post-season 4 times and have only won one series (coincidentally vs the A’s) making them 1-4 with only one ALCS appearance, losing 4-1 to the Angels. Maybe this is the “proven formula” that the front office is aspiring to – winning records half the time, and the occaisonal appearance in the post-season. Unfortunately, these teams have not been able to translate the model into WS title, much less an appearance.
Hey, I’d trade any of these results with what we’ve seen the past 15+ years. But I don’t believe that the Bucs are lined up with any of these models at this time.
I agree that every situation is different
I don’t think there’s a situation that lines up exactly with what the Bucs are trying to do, and what their ceiling is in regard to revenue. Like you said, Boston has higher TV revenues and a more affluent fanbase that can afford the highest ticket prices in baseball. On the other side, Miami and Tampa simply aren’t baseball towns to the extent that Pittsburgh is. A winning Pirates team might not sell out every night, but we won’t be drawing 15K either. Milwaukee/Minnesota is probably a close example.
As for the Twins/A’s struggles in the playoffs, you’re right about that. But it’s also true that the playoffs can be a bit of a crapshoot; also, in the NL, the Bucs would be less likely to run into a megarich team like Boston or NYY in the playoffs.
I’d be pretty satisfied if the Bucs could be a team that is reasonably expected to contend each year. They don’t have to make the playoffs every single year, but a reasonable shot at a playoff spot, combined with optimism about the future, would be fine for most fans.
Minnesota
will have $100 million payroll this year. And they outbid us for Sano.
Everyone makes a big deal about major league payroll when it goes far beyond that when a team is at the point the Pirates are. I still feel that Neal’s hands are tied when it comes to investing in this organization.
Closer to $85M
And the reason for that payroll is this: They have players worth paying $85M. 4 players (Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Nathan) will constitute more than half of that figure. All of their highly-paid players were brought in via trade or the draft.
As for Sano, we’ve been over this ad nauseum.
“Everyone makes a big deal about major league payroll when it goes far beyond that when a team is at the point the Pirates are.”
You mean, like spending more than any team in MLB on the draft over the last two years? Or building perhaps the best Dominican academy in baseball?
Why
Why should I be impressed with one of the worst teams in baseball spending the most in the draft? Thats the way it should be. If anything, they aren’t spending enough in the draft and with international signings. There are calculated risks that teams like the Pirates need to take, yet these opportunities still slip by.
And really what good does a Dominican academy do? These players go to the highest bidder.
Dominican academy
Actually, it does have an impact. A few guys will become prominent enough that there will be an open auction, but most Latin players aren’t signed like that. There aren’t any organized scholastic leagues or anything like that, so there’s no way for scouts to follow players like they do in the US. A lot of signings happen because of personal relationships between scouts and buscones, and because a team is just in the right place at the right time. The players often don’t go to the highest bidder—this happened with at least a couple of Rene Gayo’s more prominent signings recently, including Jonathan Barrios. Instead, they sign because they have a good relationship with the team or scout. Having a nice academy to send the player to helps with this.
Interesting
So where do you scout players in the DR? The corner sandlot, kinda like hanging out at an NYC playground to find a point guard?
Pretty much
Or you wait for a buscone to bring them to you.
One major problem with scouting in the DR is that the players have “tryout skills.” Buscones train them to focus on batting practice, sprints, and bullpen sessions. I’ve read that it’s especially difficult for scouts to get a read on how they’ll react to game situations.
Kind of like schools...
…focusing on teaching the material that’s on the government’s standardized assessment tests, as opposed to a thorough examination of the subject.
Big stretch...
…insofar as we’ve gone on record, repeatedly, as saying that we would’ve paid more if we’d been given the opportunity (which we were promised) to respond to the Twins’ bid.
The Twins have made tens of millions recently in advance of going into their new ballpark
The Twins’ attendance of 29.5K per game was 98% of league average, and they had a $65M payroll in 2009. Now, they are going into the new ballpark with an exciting team, and I’m sure they are expecting to nearly sellout every game.
The average team would have spent $19M more than the Twins did in 2009, and they have consistently underspent their attendance correlation over many years.
Despite not having a good stadium with all the perks and luxury suites that PNC has, Forbes estimated the Twins made $10M more than the Pirates in 2008.
They recently said that the new ballpark will provide them increased revenue for 2010 and beyond, and MUCH of that new revenue will be put back into the baseball operations of the team.
Notice the key word “much”.
Notice that the Pirates currently say “all” revenue is put into baseball operations.
I don’t think the Nuttings will continually refrain from taking distributions from the team – especially denying the partners distributions to pay their taxes – but you just can’t say that the Pirates wouldn’t spend as much as Pohlad, who is notoriously even more penny-pinching than Nutting.
I just hope
that when the time comes to spend $100 million, the Pirates will put their money where their mouth is. And taking the Pirates owners for their word that “all” is put into baseball operations at this point in time is just laughable.
There are multiple independent accounts that some minority partners were pretty pissed that they couldn’t take distributions and walked out of a partners meeting in 2009. So, laugh all you want. I prefer to believe that which has the greater chance of being true.
Can you point to some of these “independent accounts”? I would have liked to believe that for years now. Unless you really think things changed since 2007.
Dejan reported it on the PG blog.
I don’t remember when exactly but I’m sure you could find it in the archives.
I wasn’t able to find that in the newbucs archives. Here is the article from Dejan.
Notice how the information on that doesn’t come from Nutting, Coonelly, Huntington or anyone you might automatically discount as not truthful. It came from an anonymous minority partner of the Pirates who told the story personally to Dejan and declined to be identified.
Ballpark and winning
The Pirates attendance went up when the new ballpark was built even though they still were a losing team. The twins have built a strong team with a young core of players mostly developed withing their system. They have rewarded homegrown talent with properly valued contracts resulting in a higher payroll. The fans are willing to INVEST in the team by buying season ticket deals many of which resulted in higher attendance at the metrodome to get the best seats in the new ballpark. Season tickets when a new ballpark is being built are almost always offered to long term ticket holders first and then season ticket holders from the PREVIOUS season next. I know the twins have a good fan base, but in a normal year (not building a new stadium) their attendance would probably be in the 75% of league average range. Almost all teams were down in attendance with the economy and no other team had the prospect of a new stadium to lure season ticket holders who are a key core of attendance figures.
The Twins attendance the last 4 years: 28K, 28K, 28K, 29K. The previous 5 years they were also very good, though, and averaged about 23K. Previous to that they were bad and had horrible attendance, but their 1991 World Series season and 1992 seasons they had 28K and 30K as well.
In general, their very good years in the Metrodome have been slightly better attendance-wise than the Bucs’ good years in Three Rivers.
a better team equals more attendance, if you are in a big market. Look at the Marlins when they bought a team (possibly the only time it really worked that quickly) their atttendance was crap for 80% of the season.
The year the White Sox went to the World Series they had lower attendance than the Pirates in September. That was not a cheap team. there is a correlation between higher payroll and higher attendance, there is a correlation between higher payroll and winning games, and there is a correlation between market size and all of the above.
The reverse is also true, higher attendance correlates to higher payroll, as does market size. I don’t think anyone would argue that spending money on the Pirates would increase the size of Pittsburgh, but there is a correlation.
Sadly causality cannot be proven because there are too many exceptions to show either way. Except for one. Winning increases attendance. The last two weeks of the White Sox campaign and the playoffs their attendance skyrocketed. Just like the Marlins way back.
Marlins had their best attendance year during their first season where the drew over 3M fans. In 1997, the year they bought a team, they drew 2.4M, the only other time they had more than 2M in attendance for a season.
Can I propose a 4c?
…Dave Littlefield acquired Jason Bay in the Brian Giles trade only after the San Diego Padres denied him Xavier Nady. So technically, the best move of his tenure didn’t even happen on purpose.
"Straight ball I hit very much, but curveball, bats are afraid." - Pedro Cerrano
Certainly they were fortunate to get Bay as a plan B. DL could certainly have pulled the plug on the deal, but he must have recognized that Bay too had potential.
Remember 2003/2004 when A-Roid was traded to the Red Sox for a package of players and ManRam? The Sox were poised to trade Nomar too, to make room for A-Roid. The Union voided the deal because ARoid agreed to a smaller salary in exchange for increased marketing rights. End result, Sox retain ManRam and Nomar and ended up with their first WS title in 100 years. They were lucky in a way, being stuck with their plan B.
You have about half....
the facts right. The union did hold up the deal because ARod agreed to take a pay cut which the union would never endorse, certainly from the highest paid player in the game. But ARod had to be convinced to agree with the union position, the union could not unilaterally stop the deal. Gene Orza convinced ARod this was the right move and the $28 million he was going to give up ($4m/7yrs.) became moot because it didn’t have the union’s “blessing.” “Marketing rights” were not involved in any way.
And while the Sox did temporarily retain Nomar (who wasn’t involved in that trade at that time-but a potentially different trade with the White Sox), he only played 38 games for Boston that year and then was traded to the Cubs and was not part of the WS winning roster.
Actually, the commish reversed his approval of the deal. “But the union stepped in Wednesday, saying the way the deal was restructured would cut the value of the contract, which is not allowed under the collective bargaining agreement. Commissioner Bud Selig announced Thursday evening that he had withdrawn permission for the Sox and A-Rod to pursue the trade, with Major League Baseball President Bob DuPuy criticizing the union for its actions.”
During negotiations last week, the players’ association said Rodriguez’s agreement could be restructured but not reduced. Instead, the union said it would approve a change that would lower the contract by $12 million to $13 million in exchange for Rodriguez getting the right to use Boston’s logo and trademarks in marketing deals. In addition, he’d be able to become a free agent after the 2005 season.
1. The union could not unilaterally stop the deal, but did bring up the fact that the new contract violated the CBA.
2. Marketing rights were involved.
You’re correct on Nomar.
For some reason, I thought that Curt Schilling was a 2nd choice too? Was it the Pavano sweepstakes or maybe Javier Vazquez that both the Yanks and Sox coveted?
Surely you jest...
by comparing the failed A-Rod to Boston trade in December 2003 to the Giles-Bay/Perez trade. And I think you give Littlefield too much credit. I would never go that far hypothetically by saying he “must have recognized that Bay too had potential.” The truth of the matter is Nady was the one he wanted, so much so that he eventually flipped Perez to NY to get Nady. Bay was a consolation prize for not getting what he wanted. I think it’s safer to say that Montreal (the team that originally drafted Bay), the Mets and the Padres all failed to see Bay’s potential and Littlefield just lucked out.
IIRC, the plan was A-Rod for Manny and a few players, and then Nomar to the White Sox for Magglio Ordonez. Those two moves would have been blockbusters, but the Union mess screwed that up. I guess it worked out for Boston either way, they still moved Nomar and got a defensive upgrade in Orlando Cabrera and Manny ended up being World Series MVP.
Speaking of Jason Bay, blockbuster trades and what-if scenarios, remember that deal NH almost pulled off with Cleveland, Bay for Cliff Lee, et al? Now that’s a serious chain reaction…
"Straight ball I hit very much, but curveball, bats are afraid." - Pedro Cerrano
I’m not jesting, and don’t call me Shirley…
The point is, sometimes Plan B works out better than Plan A.
Great Airplane reference
I don’t dispute your point, I just dispute your citing of the Bay trade as an example of your point. I feel the failed A-Rod deal is a better one, considering that smarter baseball operations people were behind it.
(Maybe I just don’t like giving Dave Littlefield credit for much of anything, even the things he did right. Except for drafting McCutchen and Lincoln, he did pretty well there.)
"Straight ball I hit very much, but curveball, bats are afraid." - Pedro Cerrano
I’m guessing a large majority of the board has a similar DL prejudice, myself included. But I try to give credit where it’s due (Lincoln, Cutch, Bay). We all know his idiotic moves, but he did do some things right.
Continuing to the giving credit where credit is due...
he flipped Todd Ritchie for Wells, Fogg and Sean Lowe which turned out pretty well for the Bucs. I also think you can throw Maholm on the draft list as well. Other nice moves include picking up Sanders, Lofton, Stairs and Suppan on the cheap. I can’t really think of anything else. Unfortunately his negatives list is too long to put in this post.
I would also consider the Laroche deal a win for the Pirates.
I may be the only one but we got a starting first baseman with some pop for a relief pitcher who spent most of his time on the disabled list.
He made some decent moves in the campaign to acquire relief pitchers. Terry Mulholland brought Mike Fetters, and Fetters, in turn, brought Duaner Sanchez. Boehringer gave us a nice year as a one-year free agent, before falling apart after they re-signed him to a two-year deal. Bringing back Marte for Mackowiak worked well, both in performance and in bringing in a trading chip for the next regime. Same goes for signing Roberto Hernandez.
On the position player side, he should get a little credit for identifying Gary Matthews Jr. as a useful waiver claim, but he loses that credit for losing him on a subsequent waiver claim. Josh Phelps was kind of a fun short-term pickup, too.
And there was the year
he signed five budget free agents and they all did fair to excellent. Inevitably though, he was undermined the same year by his own bonehead move (trading Chris Young for Matt Herges and then cutting Herges; when the closer/pen completely collapsed, Herges might have filled the gap).
Amusingly enough...
…we got saved from ourselves in the case of Lincoln, too. Going into that draft, we were targeting the thoroughly underwhelming Greg Reynolds (as well as Longoria, who had no chance of still being there at our pick), but the Rockies unexpectedly took Reynolds at #2, so we ended up with Lincoln instead.
don't forget
freddy sanchez only became a pirate after brandon lyon failed his physical. he almost lost mike gonzalez in that deal too. so fortunately for us, two of DL’s “best” deals were actually not even his first preference.
Very true
you summed it up a lot better than I did
"Straight ball I hit very much, but curveball, bats are afraid." - Pedro Cerrano
It's actually even funnier than that.
The Freddy Sanchez deal never would’ve happened, either, if Brandon Lyon hadn’t failed his physical. If not for Lyon’s elbow, we would’ve missed out on Freddy AND we would’ve sent Gonzo away just before he broke out.
So the two best moves of Littlefield’s tenure were both accidents.
Great post
Charlie;
I think you are 100%, absolutely spot-on with this one. I’m not sure I understand the intentions of the PG. I completely think this story breaking during PirateFest was planned This all might end up being made into a movie (Major League 3 , or 4 anyone ?)
Charlie wrote:
I couldn’t care less if Bob Nutting is in charge. But I also think it’s pretty likely that Lemieux and Burkle would look around, assess the situation and allow their GM to keep doing what Neal Huntington is now doing, which is to rebuild the team from the ground up.
Spot on comments.
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