Rays at Pirates
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 12:51 PM EST
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PrintOne day on, one day off for the bats? We'll see if the trend continues. Lineups:
Rays- Sean Rodriguez SS
- Carl Crawford LF
- B.J. Upton CF
- Pat Burrell RF
- Dioner Navarro C
- Dan Johnson 1B
- Kelly Shoppach DH
- Reid Brignac 2B
- Elliot Johnson 3B
Pitching: Wade Davis
Pirates- Akinori Iwamura 2B
- José Tábata CF
- Lastings Milledge LF
- Ryan Doumit DH
- Jeff Clement 1B
- Andy LaRoche 3B
- Ronny Cedeño SS
- John Raynor RF
- Héctor Giménez C
Pitching: Kevin Hart, Jeff Karstens, Jack Taschner, Evan Meek, Donnie Veal, Jean Machi and Jeremy Powell
Doumit gets a back-to-back in the DH spot, but I think everyone else is different from yesterday. Not surprising with the quick turnaround time. Go Bucs!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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weather.com
says “precip: 60%” on the “Today” box, but the “next 6 hours overview” just says “cloudy and windy, temperatures falling to the low 70s”.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Just checked PBC Blog
Dejan say they could sneak this one in, but they are also under a tornado watch
also from weather.com
Wind: From S at 32mph gusting to 42mph
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Rodriguez
flies out to Raynor
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Cool
I was hoping you were listening to the game. All I have is MLB’s Boxscore. Which refreshes every 30 seconds but has the same results for 20 minutes:)
I know it's annoying
then it updates at least half an inning of stuff at once, sometimes you lose track of what exactly happened
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
B.J. Upton
strikes out
Jason
The Hanging Curve
yeah
the announcers were really happy. Only a couple balls if I remember right
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Iwamura
takes count full but called out on check swing K
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Tábata
pops out to shallow right
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Milledge
2-2 pitch up the middle for a hit. Doumit batting lefty.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Doumit walks on five pitches
First and second for Clement
Jason
The Hanging Curve
no chance
walks on five pitches too
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
LaRoche
bases cleared with a double off the top of the center field wall!
Jason
The Hanging Curve
With the wind blowing that hard...
a pop up to shortstop could end up a grand slam.
yeah
they say it probably would have been an out on a normal day
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Cedeño
worked the count really nice to full after 0-2, fouling off a couple pitches in the process
They say it probably would have been a hit just not a HR normally
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Raynor
line drive out
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Hart
walks Burrell…walking people with a five run lead is a recipe for disaster today
Jason
The Hanging Curve
eight straight balls
walks Navarro
Jason
The Hanging Curve
A STRIKE
after ten straight balls
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Johnson
flies out to Tábata
Jason
The Hanging Curve
a few strikes at least
but full count walk to Shoppach, loads the bags.
Like I said, not a recipe for success, especially when the wind is like it is today.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
double of RF wall
for Brignac, Shoppach stops at third. 5-2 Pirates.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
sac fly
for Johnson (Elliot this time) to Milledge. That’s three walks and four flyouts for Hart.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
game tied
Rodriguez singles to center, muffed by Tábata, so he gets home
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Crawford
doubles over Tábata, announcers say it should have been caught.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Hart
Is NOT! starter material
D Cutch shows he can be able to throw quality starts. Hart’s lucky to get through 5.
There’s no doubt who should be the 5th starter
by BadAndy on Mar 11, 2010 1:45 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I know it's just spring training
but dude has almost as many walks as outs. You have to be able to throw strikes. He’s been facing mostly major leaguers too.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Crawford
picked off. LaRoche no-look tagged him apparently. the bleeding stops.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Giménez
fouls of some pitches and draws a walk
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Seems a common occurance
Spot our starters a substantial lead and they walk the other club back into the game. That’s happened a lot the last few years.
Tábata
strikes out. 5-5 game, end of the second.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
B.J. upton
grounds out to short, Clement makes the pick on low throw
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Tashcner fields comebacker
sends it to Cedeño to get Burrell
then beans Navarro with a pickoff throw, he’s on his knees in some pain—appears to be his left hand, out of the game.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
what accuracy he shows on that play
hit a guy in his hand on a pick off throw what accuracy
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its a Great Day to be a Mountaineer where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Mar 11, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
or in the early days of baseball
but alas we are not playing kickball or using the rules of when baseball first started
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its a Great Day to be a Mountaineer where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Mar 11, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
José Lobatón
in for Navarro.
Something happened with Johnson.
Shopppach Ks, no runs, Milledge, Doumit, Clement due up.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Milledge
chop single to the left side
Jason
The Hanging Curve
then takes second
on ball in dirt
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
then takes third
on wild pitch that Lobatón tried to backhand
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
what is the score to this game
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its a Great Day to be a Mountaineer where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Mar 11, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
LaRoche pops out to short
6-5 Bucs, end of the 3rd
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Evan Meek in to pitch
Brignac grounds out to Iwamura
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Our broadcasters are singing...
Greg sang a few bars of America’s “Lonely People” and Steve did a little “Eleanor Rigby.”
somehow I am not surprised
I bet it gets boring during ST game ssometimes
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its a Great Day to be a Mountaineer where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Mar 11, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
again thats boredom for you
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its a Great Day to be a Mountaineer where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Mar 11, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
I got to ask is that a picture of you singing in the PNC Park Idol thing
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its a Great Day to be a Mountaineer where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Mar 11, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yes—my brother and I did a duet of “Mr. Roboto” on my 34th birthday in the summer of ’08. I had done “Bust A Move” as a solo earlier in the season. Good times.
I'm going to guess you are the one wearing shades
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its a Great Day to be a Mountaineer where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Mar 11, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Elliot Johnson Ks
Rodriguez pops up foul, but Giménez can’t track it down (no error), but Meeks Ks him anyways. Nice inning, 6-5 Bucs, Cedeño, Raynor, Giménez due up
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Giménez
flies out to Crawford
Pitcher fields an Iwamura ground to finish the inning, 6-5 Pirates.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Crawford
nails a HR to left center. Tied up at 6.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Machi has the stuff
But he’s got a long way to go in bein a solid bullpen contributor
by BadAndy on Mar 11, 2010 2:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ks Upton
but then Burrell hits another homer to center
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Shoppach walks
Brignac drops a can of corn into righ to score Johnson, Rays up 8-6
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Elliot Johnson
grounds out to Clement, 8-6 Rays. Tábata, Milledge, Doumit due up.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
8 walks
and 14 runs through 4.5 innings will do that I guess.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
Tábata
drops a triple into the right center gap
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Milledge
grounds out to score Tábata, 8-7 Rays. Brignac makes diving play to get Doumit, 2 down.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Andy LaRoche walks
and they chase out Bennett. Two outs, Cedeño coming up.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Cedeño lines out to pitcher
Rays 8-7 through five full. Powell in to pitch.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
March 11 is too soon
to even consider writing off a pitcher based on a couple of shaky spring performances.
If Hart is still scuffling along come April 1, then you might get a bit concerned.
Kevin Hart, D. Cutch, and Brad Lincoln will get their fair share of chances over the long season to show what they can do.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
No one is writing him off.
However…the GLOWING reports from the management team coming out of mini-camp of how Hart had fixed things up appear to be a crock of manure. THAT is why you don’t sit there and “award” someone the 5th starter spot before they’ve even had someone step in the batter’s box. Let someone actually show on the field of play that they can do the job.
They should not have called Hart the 5th starter…they shouldn’t have called ANYONE the 5th starter…and just said…“These are the guys that will be fighting for the spot.”
They DIDN'T call anyone the 5th starter.
They said that Hart was the front-runner, and had done a lot of good work over the offseason. Which is a totally different thing.
Thunder
I’ve quite a few comments here since Hart’s first appearance this spring that already seem to be writing him off before he’s had a chance to even get ready for regular season games.
Why do you think a couple of bad outings around March 5 and 10 are such a big deal?
Pitchers have various things they are working on in spring games, especially their first few appearances. Someone more knowledgeable about the game than BD commenters-Kent Tekulve-reiterated this point after the game last night.
D. Cutch didn’t do anything late last year to show he’s going to be a legit big league starter and, if I remember correctly, his flyball tendencies are worrisome. (We’ll see sometime this year what we’ve got with him.)
Brad Lincoln definitely could use some more time at AAA to start the season, especially since last year was the first time post-surgery that he really pitched anywhere near a full season at full strength.
If Hart sucks in April it will be a totally different thing.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
Not a question of writing Hart off.
More a question of the appearance of the Pirates management team writing OTHERS off. I’ve never said that Hart shouldn’t make the team. The starting rotation is something entirely different. How many major league teams that play .400 ball have their entire starting staff mostly figured out before preseason?? Somewhere around one team…the Pirates.
How a team that plays .400 ball (worse if you consider the roster the last 2 months of last season)…can have most of their roster spots figured out…less than halfway through spring training is beyond me (except 2 or 3 bench spots). Especially when most of those spots were what produced the bad baseball.
Hart was being praised loudly in the media at mini-camp about having his issues fixed…and was being touted as the leader for the 5th starting spot. We’re a few appearances in…and he’s back to doing the same things that were producing poor results last season…even by the admission of both Hart and JR.
Again…this is as much about how management portrays this team as anything. Too often…a player is portrayed as the “starter” or “the leading candidate”…without doing anything more than looking good when no one is in the batter’s box in a major league game. Currently…examples would be people such as Hart, Morton (to a lesser extent since he’s actually had SOME good games), Clement, Cedeno.
Potential doesn’t win games. Talent and ability wins games. Potential cannot be measured by usual means. Talent and ability can be measured by results. Show me results…and I can make a somewhat informed decision as to who is the more valuable player.
A top 100 prospects list is generated off of potential. How many of those 100 each year NEVER play a significant role in the majors, let alone that season? I’d be willing to guess that it’s close to half.
How many teams that play .400 ball...
…have a front four starters as good as ours? Not many.
I really don’t see why it’s so wrong to say that one player is leading in an open competition. If they printed an article tomorrow saying that Hart’s bad results had put McCutchen in the lead, would that be equally offensive to you?
Similarly, if you want to over-emphasize performance relative to potential, that’s your call, but why then would you criticize Cedeno? He put up a .701 OPS for us after the trade last year – better than Jack before the deal, and better than any of Bobby Crosby’s offensive seasons since 2005. Cedeno would seem like the perfect example of a guy earning his job on the field… except for the fact that like Hart, he hasn’t been formally announced as the starter for 2010.
Our front 4 starters are good?? Our starters had a 4.59 ERA last year. The league average for starters was 4.30. ML average was 4.55.
League average WHIP 1.367…Majors…1.387…Pirates 1.423
League average K/BB 2.12…Majors…2.09…Pirates…1.73
There were a grand total of 15 starts made last year (all by Snell) that were made by pitchers NOT in camp this spring.
I would say there are a LOT of teams that had 4 better starters than the Pirates. And I’m pretty sure that Washington…Baltimore…Kansas City and Cleveland (the other teams that played near or below .400 ball last year) don’t have their starting rotations etched in stone yet.
For the purposes of this analysis...
…our front four starters returning from last year were Maholm, Morton, Ohlendorf, and Duke. In their time with the Pirates in 2009, those guys combined to allow 318 earned runs in 681 1/3 innings pitched. That’s an ERA of 4.20, and the highest individual ERA in the bunch is only 4.59.
The Indians played .401 ball last year. Their best four returning starters from last year are… kind of hard to determine, because their rotation was a train wreck. If you held a gun to my head and made me pick, I’d go with Westbrook (injured – didn’t pitch), Laffey (4.44), Masterson (4.55), and Huff (5.61), but you could probably make an equally convincing case for Carmona (6.32) or Sowers (5.25) or Reyes (6.57). In any event, the best guy from the bunch is coming back from a significant injury, the arguable second- and third- best were about as good as our fourth-best, and their fourth-best (whoever you think it was) was pretty marginal.
Last year, the Royals also played .401 ball. Their best four returning starters are Greinke (2.16), Meche (5.09, plus an injury), Bannister (4.73), and either Davies (5.27) or Hochevar (6.55), depending on your preference. Again, with the sole exception of Greinke, our guys performed much better and were in better health.
Last year, the Orioles played .395 ball. Their best four returning starters are Guthrie (5.04), Bergsen (3.43), Matusz (4.63, 8 career starts), and either Tillman (5.40, 12 career starts) or Berken (6.54). If you go with Tillman, the talent level herer is possibly grossly comparable to ours, but there’s much more associated uncertainty due to Matusz and Tillman being so young (22 and 21, respectively) and inexperienced.
I could keep going, but I’d assume you see the point. It seems that what I told you is true: .400 teams generally don’t have rotations with four average-to-above-average returning starters. They have more competition for their rotation spots because their pitchers are, in general not as good as ours (less effective, less healthy, and less experienced), so during spring training they throw a bunch of marginal options at the wall and see what sticks.
That’s kind of the situation with our fifth starter’s spot this spring – which is why they’re holding a competition for the spot.
my biggest problem with Hart so far
is the walks. He’s pitched three innings and given up seven walks. It would be one thing if he were just getting knocked around, but he can’t seem to find the plate. IMO the biggest thing he needed to do this year over last was cut down on walks.
Yes, spring training starts are often utilized in ways that make the stats somewhat meaningless. However, what I would like to see from Hart is him come into spring, pound the strikezone, and see where his secondary pitches are at. The fact that he can’t find the plate speaks to his preparation in my mind.
Of course, I don’t think he should lose a job or a roster spot right now (I also don’t think he should be considered as having a slot in the rotation yet by the same token), but unless his spring training time starts looking productive in some fashion, I’m not impressed.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 11, 2010 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
The thing that I'd like to see from Hart...
…more even than a higher number of strikes, is better body control on the mound. He looked like Shawn Chacon out there last year, like he didn’t even have a consistent set of mechanics from pitch to pitch. Until he gets that down (and a lot of people never do), he’ll keep walking guys left and right.
Bernier at short
Walker at third, Van Every LF
Walker takes a grounder from Rodriguez, one down.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
PH for Crawford
flies out to LF.
Angel Chávez for Upton, grounds out to short. Nice quick inning, 8-7 Rays.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Giménez walks again
Delwin Young came in earlier for Iwamura, he’s up to bat.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Young
ties it up on fielders choice that erases Giménez but doesn’t get Delwin.
Tábata called out on strikes. Van Every up.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Van E walks
Brandon Jones singles, but Young is thrown out at the plate.
The announcers saying that Young was kind of trotting to start off, then turned it on to try and score after waved home, but too little too late. Scrappy indeed.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Karstens in to pitch
walks Shealy.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Lobatón
singles, runners at first and second. Johnson gets on somehow to load the bases for Shoppach
Jason
The Hanging Curve
sac fly
to Raynor, 9-8 Rays, first and third with two out.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Elliot Johnson
pop to shallow short, another run in 10-8 Rays. Yes, they seem to be saying “Raymer” a lot.
De La Cruz doubles in two more runs. 12-8 Rays.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Justin Ruggiano
Two run opposite field homer.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Chavez
makes that back to back. Add Aguero to your dreadful list.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Shealy, who lead off the inning
finally Ks to stop the pain. 15-8 Rays, stretch time. I may not be on this one too much longer folks.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
The dreadfuls seem to be outnumbering the good when it comes to pitching…and the pitching is SUPPOSED to be ahead of the hitting at this point of the spring. This is not a good sign.
They did say that the wind was blowing out today.
I expect it’s probably inflating both their bats and ours.
hillarious
our announcers are talking about hijinx in spring training. Cutting a hole in the bottom of their “dorm” floor and putting a rug over it to sneak out to the beach at night.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Neil Walker
2 run HR to left center, part way back 15-10 Rays.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
I guess that...
47 walks in 88 innings (give or take one)…is considered a good thing?? That’s about 5 walks a game for our staff this spring. That would not win many games during the season.
Bernier Ks
Raynor flies out to center, Luke Carlin in at C
Jason
The Hanging Curve
15-10 Rays
Donnie Veal in to pitch
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Veal
lays down a 1-2-3 inning
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Scrappy
HR to right, 15-11 Rays
Jason
The Hanging Curve
Scrappy.. Scrappy.. SCRAPPY DOOOO
by omar moreno on Mar 11, 2010 4:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
nothing else doing that inning
15-11 Rays, end of eighth
Jason
The Hanging Curve
oh great
VV in to mop up the ninth
Jason
The Hanging Curve
this game is over
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its a Great Day to be a Mountaineer where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Mar 11, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
OK
going to the store, enjoy the last inning
Jason
The Hanging Curve
updates
clement reached on some weird catcher interference even though he hit a LD which was caught on the slide…
walker single (the other way?)
bernier walked
bases loaded
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