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Kyle Stark, Fashion Cop

Nice article from the mothership about Kyle Stark and the Bucs' minor-league system.

Regular readers know I'm a fan of what Neal Huntington and his crew have done with the minor league system, but can I just say that I think the Pirates' rules about shaving regularly and wearing high socks are a little weird? This is undoubtedly partly because these rules offend my personal sense of individuality, and I understand that individuality is not the point of baseball. But the Pirates don't seem to enforce these rules at the major league level--Donnie Veal had facial hair last year, and Luis Rivas had it in 2008. Lots of their major league players don't wear their socks high. And I'm not sure there's any meaningful connection between shaving, or dressing a particular way, and winning. Johnny Damon won a World Series with the Red Sox looking like a caveman; Jason Giambi was a consistent winner with the A's while looking like a crazy person. And remember how Pirates fans used to call Craig Wilson "Samson"?

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The “fashion” stuff isn’t unusual. The Orioles started that a few years ago. I’ve seen their farm teams a lot over many years, mainly in Frederick and Bowie, and there was a noticeable change in the quality of their play about the same time as they started enforcing uniform rules. I’m not saying the one caused the other—that’d be silly—but at least some people in baseball seem to think the two go together.

by WTM on Mar 6, 2010 1:09 AM EST reply actions  

My understanding is that the high socks rule iss a minor league thing. I think I remember someone from the Pirates (might have been Stark) saying that once a player was in the majors, he had earned the right to wear his uniform to his liking. Or something like that.

by MBandi on Mar 6, 2010 1:16 AM EST reply actions  

This.

It’s a rite of passage. I think it would make you work harder, but it also promotes unity in the minors. I don’t see anything wrong with it.

by PGHcager on Mar 6, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Not Pirate related, but that last part about Giambi and Damon reminds me; why do the Yankees keep signing guys known mainly for their hair related exploits and making them change it? Jason Giambi, Johnny Damon, Nick Swisher, Chad Gaudin, etc. If you sign the player you’re signing the facial hair as well. I’ve also noticed that CC Sabathia’s hat isn’t quite as sideways as it used to be.

by ElDuce on Mar 6, 2010 1:22 AM EST reply actions  

I think

This ties into the general idea of them pushing a more military approach to the minors — Stark was at West Point this summer and got the mental-conditioning coach from there as another example that kind of drives that home.

by Slizeezyc on Mar 6, 2010 3:20 AM EST reply actions  

On the contrary

I think it’s one of the most refreshing and encouraging philosophies I’ve heard in years.

First and foremost, there’s a reason it’s called a “uniform.” The idea is that everyone wearing it should meet the same standard of appearance, regardless of their status or ego. As dehumanizing as it may sound, baseball is a business and players are the product. Consequently, there’s nothing remotely unreasonable about ensuring the product is presentable.

But even more fundamentally, the whole point of the minors is to teach the player to be a big leaguer, and structure is an essential part of the education process. We teach our children to make their beds every morning, for example, even though probably no one would ever know if they didn’t. Why? Because we want to reinforce the concept of orderliness and accountability. If you take a sloppy, haphazard approach in one aspect of your life, you’re apt to do so in every other aspect as well.

The same concept applies to baseball. Minor leaguers aren’t there to express their individuality. They’re being paid to learn how to do things correctly. At this stage of their careers, it’s vital they understand that their way of doing things isn’t necessarily the right way, and that message must be consistent in every aspect of their experience if you expect them to accept it.

There’s plenty of time later to grow a beard and look like a homeless person. If they earn the right.

by bucfaninwa on Mar 6, 2010 7:01 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

So when are you coming over to talk to my daughter about making her bed?

by JRoth95 on Mar 7, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I think

this is just dumb. I think there’s probably a fair number of players who are inclined to keep their hair short and not wear bears and keep their pants high, and that’s fine. I think there’s also a number of players who want to grow a beard, wear their pants low, and “look like a homeless person,” to borrow a phrase. It hasn’t hurt Manny Ramirez much, and he was a cretin when his hair was short, too.

It’s disappointing to see an organization that is almost hyper-rational take pains to create, let alone enforce, a policy that is completely irrational.

by KPatrick on Mar 6, 2010 8:34 AM EST reply actions  

Manny Ramirez ...

… is an exception to the rule in that his physical talent and surprisingly methodical approach transcend his cretinistic tendencies, if you will.

But how many examples can you cite of a guy who had all the talent in the world but pissed it away because he had no sense of discipline? Countless, I’m sure.

My point is that instilling discipline and a willingness to accept authority isn’t likely to hurt a mega-talent but could be the difference between success and failure for a (previously) free-spirited mediocrity.

by bucfaninwa on Mar 6, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

The most idiotic statement ever

“This is who we are and what we’re about, and if you don’t like it, you’re not going to hurt our feelings. You can go somewhere else,” he said. “If we can’t expect a guy to keep his locker a certain way, how can we expect him to go out and execute in the bottom of the ninth with two outs and the game on the line?”

by SHOOTFOR2010 on Mar 6, 2010 8:44 AM EST reply actions  

Heh...

That line is an old drill instructor standby and a great example of the military approach that Slizeezyc refers to above. I can’t tell you how many times I heard that exact quote going through boot camp: “If I can’t trust you to fold your t-shirts into perfect 4-inch squares, why should the Air Force trust you to work on a multi-million dollar jet?”

I have no problem with them enforcing some uniform standards with minor leaguers. They’re all paying their dues anyway and having to wear high socks or whatever isn’t that much of an inconvenience.

by maguro on Mar 6, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Discipline is good

Count me with bucfaninwa. I think this is a good thing. Making sure that our minors are oriented toward getting the players head screwed on straight is a very good idea. Uniformity allows you to focus on the stuff you’re supposed to be thinking about, performance. It’s got an impressive record of success in a wide range of contexts. Now the next step falls on the organization itself of course. They have to teach well and be accountable.

Peace
JP

by phlipside on Mar 6, 2010 9:19 AM EST reply actions  

Sounds like

There’s fungus on your shower shoes etc. Think classy, be classy.

by MDBuc on Mar 6, 2010 9:31 AM EST reply actions  

Bucfaninwa

You’ve nailed it!

Lino Donoso

by Lino Donoso on Mar 6, 2010 10:09 AM EST reply actions  

I don't care what they were as long as the play well

Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its a Great Day to be a Mountaineer where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan

by WVPiratesfan on Mar 6, 2010 10:18 AM EST reply actions  

If our two West Point draftees

from ‘08 ever get back from the wars, and into the organization, they’ll feel right at home.

"There is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise."

Gore Vidal

by patthatt on Mar 6, 2010 10:48 AM EST reply actions  

And I do like the emphasis on discipline throughout the farm system.

"There is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise."

Gore Vidal

by patthatt on Mar 6, 2010 10:49 AM EST reply actions  

Agree with Charlie

in that this would offend me personally. In fact, I make a pretty deliberate effort to subvert the dress code at my job on a daily basis.

That said, this kind of stuff does work for a lot of people. There are certainly others who are creative or pathologically individualistic (I’d count myself in both categories) who would resent these kinds of rules, perhaps enough that it would hinder their development. Something tells me that the concentration of these people playing pro ball is far less than it is in other fields.

I’d rather they forgo most of the top-down uniform stuff and focus on developing a player-driven culture of discipline. That might be harder to do in MiLB (players have different career paths and are bounced around quite a lot), but I think that a 20 year old kid is more likely to buy into this stuff if his community of peers is holding him accountable.

by ThisYearsModel on Mar 6, 2010 12:45 PM EST reply actions  

You make it sound like a 50-50 proposition

But it’s not. Regimentation almost always works when you’re trying to meld different personality types into one cohesive unit. If it didn’t, the military would have abandoned the strategy generations ago.

I understand you’d be happier wearing what you want and expressing your creativity as you see fit, but that’s the whole point. A “pathologically individualistic” person might also decide he’s happier swinging for the fences when a bunt is called for or fielding the ball only with his glove instead of using two hands.

Sometimes you have to subordinate your feelings for the good of the team as a whole, and you can’t just turn a good attitude on and off like a light switch. It has to be cultivated while you’re young.

Maybe — maybe — you can rely on a “player-driven culture of discipline” at the Major League level, but leaving tit o minor leaguers who haven’t yet developed that discipline is letting the inmates run the asylum.

by bucfaninwa on Mar 6, 2010 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

A "pathologically individualistic" person

can wear jockeys with hearts and flowers on them, or candy panties, or the garter belt Annie gave Nuke, or whatever the hell he wants UNDER his uniform and feel like a nonconformist if he really wants to. The uniform approach to uniforms seems to work pretty well in schools that have adopted it too. It gets people’s minds off petty stuff like what that bitch Brrrittanee’ee is wearing today and lets them focus on more important stuff, like learnign what they’re supposed to learn.

Besides, nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you play baseball for a living, even at the pittance most minor leaguers get. You don’t want to represent the company the way the company wants you to represent it, fine, maybe the Wild Things will take on you and your attitude.

by bucdaddy on Mar 6, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree.

In fact, I think that athletes would be generally more receptive to something like this than people who do other jobs. I readily acknowledged in my first post that this sort of thing works for a lot of (probably most) people.

Charlie said that the rules “offend [his] personal sense of individuality.” I wanted to chime in with my agreement, while pointing out that these kinds of rules can yield results in cultures that lend themselves to regimentation (e.g. team athletics or the military.)

by ThisYearsModel on Mar 6, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice article from the mothership

 
I check out the official site via my phone whilst travelling to work every morning and Jen Langosch is always a pleasure to read. Yes, the content is usually part reporting, part propaganda – but the style is always informative and smooth.

Hail ‘Smooth Jen Langosch’! By gosh, she doesn’t get enough credit.

by RDV across the sea on Mar 6, 2010 4:41 PM EST reply actions  

Langosh is not paid by the Pirates, BTW. Of course, she’s not going to try to embarrass the organization either, because she’s paid by MLB. She’s a beat news reporter, so she can (and does) say things like “there are questions as to whether x can be an everyday player” but not “the Pirates are crazy to think x is an everyday player”.

by MarkInDallas on Mar 6, 2010 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I will admit...

…that I like her work more than I liked Ed Eagle’s.

by Vlad on Mar 7, 2010 7:47 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'm kinda torn on this.

On the one hand, I can respect the team’s decision to have players look more uniform and professional, but it does come off as a little trite. Stark’s comparison of a locker’s appearance and a player’s reaction in pressure situations is a total fallacy, and I understand that it was meant as more of a throwaway line in the context of the article, but almost feels like he is making a mountain out of a molehill.

The improved communication talked about in the article is very important. The various instructional programs about finance and media awareness are a truly admirable move by the organization. But the rules about player appearance do sound rather silly. I like how it can be used as a motivational tool, but I can’t shake the feeling of this being a “Big Brother” moment—and that’s from someone who routinely dismisses the concept of the “Big Brother” controlling force.

by Kidspud on Mar 6, 2010 5:44 PM EST reply actions  

Look at them sideburns! He looks like a girl.

Now, Johnny Unitas — there’s a haircut you could set your watch to!

by biggyv on Mar 6, 2010 7:21 PM EST reply actions  

Mattingly!

I thought I told you to trim those sideburns! You’re off the team! For good!

by Schide on Mar 6, 2010 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

What do you think Mike Scoscia is more proud of:

Managing a World Series Champ or that episode of the Simpsons? I’d take the Simpsons.

It's a good day to be a Pirate

by Bucko on Mar 8, 2010 2:53 AM EST up reply actions  

(shudder)

I personally prefer my ladies without the facial hair…
But I guess that’s the joke.

by BlindSquirrel on Mar 7, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

speechless

huh, 90% of them won’t sniff the majors , just teach the other 10% how to play baseball. This is not friggin rocket science.

by wishiewashie on Mar 6, 2010 8:20 PM EST reply actions  

And which players currently in the system...

…comprise that 10%?

If you tell the front office, they could cut all the others and save a lot of money.

by Vlad on Mar 7, 2010 7:48 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

7%

I bet this board can name a least 7%, and let management figure out the other 3%.

by wishiewashie on Mar 7, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

It would be hubris if management believed this—the sort of hubris that leads to, for example, Chris Young and Leo Nunez being traded away for absolutely nothing.

by Charlie on Mar 7, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Having recently been an 18-24 year old male, I feel pretty confident in saying that the thing 18-24 year old males most need is a disciplined sense of responsibility to something greater than themselves. If there are aren’t reasonable and necessary rules that need to be enforced, then unreasonable, arbitrary rules should be created and enforced so that these children can learn what it means to sacrifice their narrow self-interest for something more important and far more rewarding. I am totally in favor of these new minor league policies, and I respect Huntington and Stark an awful lot for putting them in place, not just as baseball men but as humans.

Also, I totally agree with RDV that Langosch is a really great beat writer. She works hard, writes well, and sticks to reporting (as opposed to amateurish analysis). Dejan is really great too, and I’m glad we have both of them covering the Bucs.

by epoc on Mar 6, 2010 11:50 PM EST reply actions  

I think this is the crux of the issue

I think these rules provide an outward sign that a player is willing to buy in totally to what the organization is teaching them. I think that’s the underlying understanding of confidence that the org is looking for when they say confidence in keeping the locker a certain way leads to confidence in the 9th inning. The org can trust the player to rely on their training because they’ve gone “all in”.

by MarkInDallas on Mar 7, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

our record this year 62-100

But our lockers look fabulous. Enough said.

by wishiewashie on Mar 7, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

This has NOTHING to do

with the Major League club.

If you had read the article, you could have saved yourself and us a lot of time.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Mar 7, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure you understand what "Enough said" means.

You see, you are only supposed to use that phrase when there is one overriding fact that completely and totally makes all other points irrelevant.

Here’s a good guide to posting you might want to check out…-

by MarkInDallas on Mar 8, 2010 1:33 AM EST up reply actions  

the point is

That having a clean locker or facial hair and how you wear your pants has nothing to do with performance on the field. This is all about control, and a one size fits all approach to managing. In this world you have many types of personalities and sometimes you need to be more flexible on the non-baseball type rules. Also this current management team has not produced anything yet,so why are they so sure that they have all the answers.

by wishiewashie on Mar 8, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with you that they haven’t produced anything as yet. However, just because they haven’t had time to show themselves correct doesn’t mean they don’t deserve a chance to show it. They feel it’s important and if they can convince the prospects that it is important then that’s all that matters.

Even though Milledge spent a very short period of time in the minors last year after the trade, it seemed to help him focus. We’ll see if that is an anomaly or the norm as time passes.

by MarkInDallas on Mar 8, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I think totally buying into what the organization is selling is a vastly underrated part of success. Sure we make fun of “veteran-osity” and the “intangibles” a player like Dougie Fresh brings to the team, but there is something to be said for the impact that can be had when everyone is doing things the same way and buying into what the organization is saying. It’s worked out pretty well for the military, and while of course sports aren’t the military, there is that same concept of team work, and the need for discipline

The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.

by glass0941 on Mar 9, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

They’ve even begun blinking in unison.

I love that sound

by BlindSquirrel on Mar 7, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

win

I don’t care about anything except the W. just win baseball games and leave their sox, lockers, and facial hair alone. Also remember this is a team sport played by individuals .

by wishiewashie on Mar 7, 2010 11:14 AM EST reply actions  

You're a fan.

You can afford to concern yourself solely with the outcome and criticize management for either choosing the wrong players or not developing them properly if they don’t become productive Major Leaguers.

But those responsible don’t have that luxury.

Vince Lombardi always said, “Winning isn’t a sometime thing. It’s an all-the-time thing.” And he wasn’t just referring to what happened on game days. He meant practicing hard, getting to meetings on time and generally comporting yourself like a professional on and off the field, too. Likewise, I once heard Bill Walton say that John Wooden used to literally instruct his players on the first day of practice in the finer points of how to take a shower and put your socks on without getting them wrinkled. His idea was that if you take care of the little things, the big things will take care of themselves.

Maybe it’s just me, but I figure if that philosophy is good enough for Lombardi and Wodden, it’s good enough for the Pittsburgh Pirates.

by bucfaninwa on Mar 7, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

zero

 Is the number of players this current management team has developed. Also’ you don’t develop impact major leaguers ,their mothers give birth to them. " branch rickey

by wishiewashie on Mar 7, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Given...

that their first draft was in 2008 exactly how many players did you expect them to have developed by now? I really don’t understand your point at all if there is one. Going on your Branch Rickey quote you seem to be suggesting that player development isn’t important. Is that your point? These are kids we are talking about. Kids that have come in to a lot of money so I hardly think a little discipline is going to adversely affect them maturing into responsible adults and productive major leaguers. If you want to argue that you don’t agree with the player development program Huntington and Stark have developed fine but foucssing on the dress code aspect of it hardly supports that argument.

by Slick1 on Mar 7, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

kids

they are men!!!!!!! treat them like man.

by wishiewashie on Mar 8, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe I'm slow...

but I didn’t reach my full maturity level until I was 25. My college team had a dress code as well and we had to cut our so that it was at the top of our necks. We also had to shave every day. To be honest I never really questioned nor had a problem with it. Did it help me develop as a player? I don’t know but it didn’t hurt. The players that had problems with it were the same ones that had trouble showing up for practice on time or coming to the games without hangovers. This is a long way of saying that the Pirates’ dress code is a non-issue for me.

by Slick1 on Mar 8, 2010 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

late for practice

Yea coach sorry I was late for practice ,“I was straightening up my locker ,it was out of control”

by wishiewashie on Mar 7, 2010 11:21 AM EST reply actions  

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