Why the Pirates' "Experiment" With Jeff Clement is a Good One
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 1, 2010 1:51 AM EDT
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PrintThis list of reasons the Pirates might win or lose this year is a really good article. Its author, Dejan Kovacevic, was on the radio yesterday saying a lot of the same stuff, and one thing that seemed to stick with people was Kovacevic's bit about Jeff Clement being the starter at first, which Kovacevic explains in the article this way:
Management's actions alone speak to the notion that the future remains the priority over the present, and not just because of the payroll or Alvarez starting the year in the minors: Deploying Clement at first base, despite questions about all facets of his game, despite Huntington's oft-stated declaration that players will not be given roster spots "by scholarship," despite this being the start of the season rather than the standard experimental time, stands out the most.
This is fair, and I don't see it as a problem that the Pirates are using the beginning of the season for experimental purposes. (Kovacevic doesn't pass judgment on it in the article, but it's clear from the radio show that some people do.) Does anyone really think the Pirates are going to contend this year? No? Then why go through the motions of pretending to contend for a couple of months? For a team in development mode, time is an important resource, and it would be a shame if the Pirates used the time they have to play a known veteran quantity like Ryan Church when they could find out what they have in Clement instead.
As someone pointed out recently in a really good Clement thread in the FanPosts, Clement has had something like 1300 Class AAA at bats, and he has shown he can hit there. So placing him in the Pirates lineup is not really "experimental" at all, at least not any more than playing any other rookie is experimental. Where the experiment comes in has to do with his fielding at first base, which probably will be a struggle, but which is probably only marginally more difficult to do in the majors than in Class AAA.
And if that paragraph sounds defensive about "experiments," let me continue. The Pirates have been in bad shape for a long time. Everyone knows that, and it would be stupid to deny it. For a team that's in a bad way, "experiments" and weird gambles are generally good things, and we should encourage them. They may not provide the best short-term reasons to provide tickets, but they can be great for the health of the franchise.
Check out Joe Posnanski on Branch Rickey to see what I mean. When Rickey ran the Pirates in the early 1950s, he was doing things that made Neal Huntington's experiments look positively tame, and the Pirates were really bad during those years, but when all the smoke cleared, the Bucs ended up with Roberto Clemente, Elroy Face and Dick Groat as a direct result of all of Rickey's roster shenanigans. Now, it's not really possible anymore to receive so much in return for punting one's regular season hopes, but if the Pirates are willing to be honest enough with themselves to start a converted catcher with some hitting potential at first base, then I think that's great.
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its funny
several months ago most people said 2010 was a building block year. gradual steps forward were all that was expected, 2011 was our year for improvement, our road to respectability. a couple of misguided statements by the FO, idiotic as they were. now its win or be damned. once the young bloods start arriving, there may be no chance to gage clement. he may be blocked from down under, now is the time.
don't forget their tinkering with the lineup
I’d like to see more of that too. I realize I am up against a ton of statistical metrics, but if Doumit stays healthy through the break, why doesn’t he bat 3rd? He’s going to get on base more. At the same time Jones third works better because after Doumit there’s no one who can hit for average, or challenge pitchers, so maybe 4-7 would be like a blackhole of production? It’s just a thought, call it a gut decision.
In response to all the predictions on how the Bucs will fare, I don’t think it’s out of bounds to think if this team stayed intact all season they could win 73-75. But since it’s more likely that Duke, Maholm and Doumit, among others will be shopped, it’s more likely they fall in the 62-68 win range. Which is sad for me, but hopefully some trades can bring more good prospects, or veterans, to build on next year.
by Pensburgh Pirates on Apr 1, 2010 5:38 AM EDT reply actions
You don't bat Doumit 3rd...
… because you’d like someone in the 3rd spot that can run. I think Jones is the perfect 3rd spot hitter because of his power and his above average speed(for a power guy).
I don’t really get the angst over Clement, and I don’t see how the constantly misused “scholarship” reference applies to him. He’s had extensive experience in AAA, he hit well there, and he presents easily the most long-term potential of the available choices. As far as I can see, the objections to Clement are that he didn’t hit very well in a limited opportunity with the Mariners, he slumped in AAA at the end of last year after sustaining an oblique injury, he’s had a mediocre (not bad, as so often portrayed) spring, and he doesn’t have much experience at first. The first three simply result from an inability to understand small sample sizes and the significance of spring training. The last one shows a failure to understand that most major league firstbasemen came up playing other positions and converted to first at a late stage, in many cases after reaching the majors. It’s just not the big deal people seem to think. And the “scholarship” thing is just foolish. The idea seems to be that he has to play well in the majors before he can be given a chance to play in the majors. Brilliant.
by WTM on Apr 1, 2010 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The issue isn’t that he doesn’t have very much experience, is it? The issue is that his first base defense is (reportedly) really bad. I’m very open to the idea that the reports are wrong and this whole defensive business is nonexistant, but it seems to be at least on the table for now.
As you point out below, some players like Pujols and Teixeira have great athleticism and coordination, and can pick up the basics of the position (such as “scooping” the short throws and etc.) basically on day one. It helps that they were third basemen if I remember correctly, which leads to a more natural positional shift to first.
by Adam Reynolds on Apr 1, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
If anyone...
should be able to scoop short throws…wouldn’t it be a catcher?? They see enough 58 foot curveballs.
Scooping a throw isn't hard.....
….any legit high school baseball player can catch a short hop throw.
And yet...
Clement has missed one in about half the ST games.
In the other thread and now this one, I see a lot of abstract insistence that of course any major leaguer can play 1B (remind me again why some guys start their careers at DH again?) without addressing the fact that this guy seems to be having an extraordinary amount of trouble with the position – possibly related to the fact that he’s never played any position but catcher: he’s never had to field a ground ball, much less a shot down the line or a flare at the edge of the grass.
Presumably he will eventually become a replacement-level defender at 1B; asserting that this will happen automatically, and soon, won’t make it come any faster.
I said this in the other thread...
…and I’ll say it again: Dick Stuart played first base. More than a thousand career games there, in fact – many of them for us.
This is a man who had a license plate that read “E3”. A man who once got a standing ovation from a packed house for gloving a wind-blown hot dog wrapper. A man who was nicknamed “Dr. Strangeglove”, for pete’s sake.
The standards for exactly what constitutes tolerable 1B defense are not an insurmountable obstacle, is the point that I’m trying to make, here.
Well if the argument is that Clement may well be awful, you’ll get no objection from me.
More seriously, what I’m objecting to is the idea that 1B is so easy that anyone can play it (decently). But if all anyone’s saying is that awful 1Bs are common, and that Clement can afford to be awful because of his bat… I can’t really disagree. My main worry about him starting out at 1B is that his errors will affect his hitting, but as I’ve said, I’m not so worried about that that I want to see him in Indy. I hope someone keeps an eye on him and keeps his head in shape when he muffs 2 throws in an inning and costs us a game. Perhaps the fact that he knows he’s just learning will keep him on an even keel (by contrast, I suspect that Bixler’s poor defensive play really messed with his hitting, because he thought of himself as a guy whose glove could play in the bigs).
Bixler’s problem was that he just wasn’t very good at baseball.
by WTM on Apr 1, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Well put
I’ll have to use that one on my daughter , once she gets her license. In order for me to loan you the car, you first need to show me that you can drive it safely while alone by driving it safely while you are alone. Get back to me then.
Think of the production the Pirates received in the first 3-4 months the past 3 years with Adamn Laroche at 1st base. It would be very hard for Clement to not be an upgrade offensively.
And more importantly,
The people bitching about Clement’s defense are likely the same people who ignored LaRoche’s defensive assets because his offense wasn’t up to expectation.
There is no doubt that Clement is a pedigreed prospect and now is the time to start to find out what we have.
Good day.
This isn't the first time an experiment like this has happened.
Billy Beane did it in Oakland in ‘02 with Scott Hatteberg, a career catcher who was damaged goods because of an injured ligament in his throwing elbow. Beane needed to replace — of all people — the AL MVP in Jason Giambi, but his reasoning in going with Hatteberg was that with limited resources you don’t have to replace the player; just replace the aggregate.
Granted, Hatteberg was no Giambi, but he did manage a respectable .280/.374/.433 line and an OPS+ of 116. By comparison, I’m pretty sure Adam LaRoche’s April-June aggregate can be replaced, and much easier with a hitter like Clement.
As far as defense, Hatteberg wasn’t great at the beginning of the season, either, but he became a capable defender over time with more reps. I believe the term Ron Washington (yeah, that Ron Washington) used was, “Pickin’ machine.”
That isn’t saying that will happen with Clement, but at least there’s a precedent. And besides, if the Nationals can put a defensive stiff like Adam Dunn at first, then anybody can play there (notwithstanding the man can flat out rake, of course, but I digress…)
"Straight ball I hit very much, but curveball, bats are afraid." - Pedro Cerrano
Time is an important resource indeed.
Very good point.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
Its simple
His glove is not ready, send him down 6-8 weeks and let him have his learning curve in AAA . Also his bat is far from major league caliber considering what he hit in seattle. I think jones at first and a platoon of young and church in right would be far more productive line-up also church would be a defensive replacement in the late innings.
"sale the team" sweetleb
what more does he have to prove with the bat in the minors?
his career minor league line is : .282 .370 .495 .865
He’s only had 219 major league at bats. Too small of a sample size to determine whether his bat is major league ready or not.
With this lineup, i’d rather deal with some errors at 1st in exchange for some power/offense.
Some current starting firstbasemen and the number of games they played at first in the minors before reaching the majors —
Albert Pujols: 0
Lance Berkman: 13
Mark Teixeira: 0
Jorge Cantu: 0
Adam Dunn: 0
by WTM on Apr 1, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
And what position did they play in the minors, Wilbur?
Indeed, Pujols played 4 positions in the majors before he took a throw at 1B. Apples and fucking oranges from a guy who’s never fielded a ground ball in his adult life.
Oh, and I really look forward to Adam Dunn-level defense at 1B for the next 3 years. Warms my heart.
You overstate your case.
What are the odds that he never took so much as one ground ball in high school or college?
I mean, really.
HS isn't "adult"
I chose my words carefully. He said (in minicamp, iirc) that he never played a position other than C in a game between HS and last August. So unless they were using a pretty radical shift, I feel pretty certain he never took a ground ball in a game as an adult.
Really.
I didn't miss you slipping that "in a game" into your most recent reply.
In case you were wondering whether I saw you try to move the goalposts, or not.
And how many throws from the infield do you figure Pujols got at third and in left? Catching is FAR more related to playing first than any other position.
by WTM on Apr 1, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And which is harder?
Fielding a hit ball from 100’ away or catching a throw from a major leaguer? Catching throws is a much bigger part of 1B than fielding, but he’ll average more than one fielding play per game, and it will be a totally unfamiliar experience to him (and no, drills aren’t much good here – drills don’t incorporate pitch selection or the full range of how the ball comes off a bat).
Look, he’ll cope, but stop pretending that this is just a typical ballplayer shifting positions. If it were all drills and basic athletic ability, then he wouldn’t look so conspicuously bad right now. Or will he flip a switch on Monday?
You do realize, don’t you, that teams routinely use catchers at first when they need a body there?
drills don’t incorporate pitch selection or the full range of how the ball comes off a bat
Uh, yes, they do, if you have live pitching and hitting. I watched just such a drill on Tuesday at Pirate City, conducted mainly for Clement’s benefit.
by WTM on Apr 1, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
"Need a body" vs. 162 games
Nope, no difference here. Likewise, since Joey Porter long-snapped once, it must be trivially easy for LBs to long snap. QED. And yes, I’ve known since I was 12 that C and 1B are considered allied positions. Doesn’t mean the switch is trivial.
The live hitting/pitching drill either incorporates an artificial knowledge where the ball’s going or doesn’t constitute a lot of chances. A real game involves maybe 2-4 balls towards 1B, out of ~35 PAs; is that how the drill’s set up? Look, I’m sure they can incorporate some of the elements; I’m just saying that there’s a much bigger gap between the drill and the game than there is with, say, catching throws at 1B.
The live hitting/pitching drill either incorporates an artificial knowledge where the ball’s going or doesn’t constitute a lot of chances.
Wrong again. You weren’t there. It alternated between set scenarios and guys just swinging away, with the pitchers throwing their real stuff. Since Clement was in the field the whole time and, being a drill, it moved at a much faster pace than a game and lasted two hours, Clement got a lot of work and most of it didn’t involve any artificial knowledge.
And the reason teams use catchers as emergency firstbasemen is clearly that they believe the two positions involve many similar skills. If you were correct in arguing that catching is fundamentally different from all other positions, they’d use everybody BUT catchers.
The fact is, as Vlad has pointed out, teams just don’t regard playing first as the colossal undertaking you’re making it out to be. It’s not easy—nothing at the major league level is—but it’s not remotely as big a deal as you obviously think. The only shitty arguments I see here are yours.
by WTM on Apr 1, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
When someone with no significant major league experience is handed a position to the total exclusion of any other possibilities…I’d call that scholarship. Has anyone OTHER than Clement been even considered as the starting 1B this season? Not from what I’ve seen. Clement could have hit for the average Moss had this spring, and he’d still be starting.
So if Alvarez had been in Clement’s position this spring, that’d be a scholarship? By this reasoning, it’s just a stupid, meaningless term thrown around to make it sound like management is doing something bad when they’re not.
And nobody, NOBODY gets a job based just on spring training. Hardly anybody gets a job based even partly on spring training. The whole idea of spring competitions is one of the phoniest, most overblown notions in sports.
And if no one ever gets a job based on spring training, there is no need to have 66 players in camp, because about 40 of them have no shot at accomplishing anything other than rubbing elbows with the big leaguers. The rest of them can go to Pirate City and show up when they need warm bodies (mainly pitchers).
They could make the team...
…if someone gets hurt. And there’s always the slim-but-nonzero chance that a guy will just wake up one day and find an extra 5 MPH on his fastball.
Well, let's turn that around, Thunder.
Who should they have considered as an alternative 1B this spring? Pearce? The “scholarship” tag would apply just as well for him. Myrow? He’s in his 30s and has no significant ML track record, either. Moss? shudder
Actually, he's a DH in fielder's clothing.
But we’ll let that slip for now. If you use Jones at 1B, who starts in your RF?
If Jones is at first, I would have spent the last few months looking for an OF from other sources, and using Church as a 4th OF. Evidently, the Pirates have decided that a free agent relatively young like Baldelli or Dukes (still available) doesn’t fit the plan. (And, yes, I realize that Baldelli has health issues, and Dukes has OTHER issues.) Or that there are no skilled OF on other teams of a reasonable age that can be acquired.
I sure wouldn’t be putting all my eggs in one basket with someone that has both 1) struggling with the bat at the major league level, and, 2) is just now starting to learn a new position, going against him. One of those two, sure, but not both.
Should we have a few extra players that can actually play?? Or just enough where if one fails, we leave a large hole?? I don’t expect any FO to have a perfect record on acquisitions. I just cannot see why the Pirates would acquire Clement, hand him 1B, and not have a plan B. Right now, Plan B is a default, Church in RF and Jones at 1B (he’s played, what, 2 games there this spring). Should Clement fail, and Tabata not be ready, it’s gonna be a long year at either 1B or RF, or both.
What’s wrong with Ryan Church as a backup plan? As backup plans go, he seems like a personally reasonable one to me.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 1, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Surely management
Considered putting Garrett Jones at first and Church in rightfield. But how does that help the Pirates? It doesn’t suddenly make them a contender. It delays the evaluation process of finding out what we have in Clement. In fact, it delays it to a time when similar high profile “experiments” will be going on and perhaps are not as valuable. Oh, and it isn’t as if Jones and/or Church are known, strong quantity.
I’d be angry if we didn’t “give” an everyday job to Clement to start the season. This is an easy, easy call.
Good day.
Good day.
wow two "Good day"s
now i know you’re serious. and i agree.
Clement could have hit for the average Moss had this spring, and he’d still be starting.
“Coulda fooled me.”
— Kevin Hart
Uhhh....
Hart was in one of those phony, overblown spring training competitions. You could not possibly have picked a worse example to bolster your case.
Hart had a complete meltdown. The equivalent with Clement would have been dropping every third throw or whiffing in 80% of his ABs. There was no competition with Hart, but he created one. Clement didn’t. That’s what spring training does—it lets teams deal with the extreme cases.
by WTM on Apr 1, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree, Charlie
Also, of the options the Pirates have at 1B, the one most likely to be a solution for 5-6 years is Clement. I m much more suspicious of Jones’ bat than some others here, and I think Clement hasn’t managed to adjust to the bigs in the time he spent with Seattle. He can, however, and once (and if) he does, is more likely to be consistently successful than anyone we have (except perhaps, Alvarez).
Just to lay it out
I’m sniping at a lot of the pro-Clement (for want of a better term) commenters in this thread because I think their arguments are somewhere between overstated and crap. But I actually think Charlie is right: now is the time for Clement to get a good, long look as a major league batter. His inevitable struggles in the field will probably affect his hitting a bit, but a little success as a hitter will cure that, and he’s likely to have that. He’s seen MLB pitching before, so it won’t be all-new to him. Worst case is that he costs us some meaningless games in the field while we figure out that he’s not our first baseman of the future. That would be far from disastrous, and better now than later.
Oh, and I agree this is a misuse of the term “scholarship,” because this isn’t moving a guy along just for the sake of keeping him moving: this is his make or break moment. Let’s root for “make.”
Not at all
I believe what I’m saying when I say that, e.g., WTM is being ridiculous to compare a guy who’s played a year in the field at the major league level with a guy who caught in the minor leagues. Shitty argumentation drives me nuts.
I don’t think Clement should come north because 1B is so trivially easy; I think he should be brought north because it’s secondary, and I don’t think it will interfere with finding out what we need to learn.
See my comment above. Catchers are routinely used as fallbacks at first. I guess most teams are guilty of the same shitty logic as me.
Your distinction between playing other positions and catching just isn’t the profound insight you seem to think it is. It’s not even correct.
by WTM on Apr 1, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, if you’ve got Adam Dunn on your side of a fielding argument, you must be correct. How dare I question you?
And Mark Teixeira and Albert Pujols and Jorge Cantu and probably a hundred other guys if I took the time.
Yeah, maybe you should take on an argument you’re up tow
by WTM on Apr 1, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Why bother to debate this in the abstract? Clearly, JRoth is correct in saying that Clement is having trouble adjusting to 1b defensively. Whether that affects his hitting or not is up for debate, but arguing that in general 1b is an easy position or that catchers become 1b all the time doesn’t add anything to the discussion. Clement is not playing defense well at 1b right now. As JRoth is saying, there’s no reason for that to keep him at Indy, but it is something to note as a concern, and as much as I dislike unfounded speculation, the speculation that his defense might affect his hitting isn’t ridiculous.
I haven’t seen anything that establishes that Clement “is having trouble adjusting to 1b.” He’s clearly never going to be a Gold Glover, but I have yet to see, hear or read anything whatsoever, beyond unfounded speculation, that indicates he’s some sort of disaster in the making.
The likelihood of it affecting his hitting also amounts to unfounded speculation. He got off to a slow start this spring, but for the last several weeks he hit reasonably well.
To the extent all this hand-wringing is just a way of saying that we don’t know whether Clement will work out, offensively or defensively, well, duh. I don’t see how anybody could disagree. The only relevant question now is whether he should be sent down so we can build for the future with a 31-year-old career backup in right field.
by WTM on Apr 2, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Can we all be nicer to one another here?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 1, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You’ll also note from the PG that it could’ve easily been ruled a hit.
by thegreatchris on Apr 1, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
heard terrible ruor on Yankee site, Joba to be traded to Bucs for McCutchen
I hope not..I am a Mets fan and would hate to see this, he needs to be part of the Bucs. I would go to a game in Pitt just to see this kid play
Sounds like an April Fool’s Day joke to me.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 1, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
You grossly underestimate
Yankees fans’ opinions of their players, particularly younger ones.
gotta give Clement a chance
the Bucs could go the “piching and defence” route to win games, but frankly they dont have the pitching. Last year they had the defence (first half anyway), and they didn’t win jack. So in the big picture, they’re best off putting the pieces in place that have the best chance to win overall, and that includes Clement at first. Yeah, he’ll make mistakes, but the gamble that his offence makes up for it is a gamble worth taking, at least short term. If it works, great; if not, it’s not like we blew a chance at the world series.
What DO the Pirates have??
Pitching…a staff that was near the bottom of the league last year, with no big acquisitions.
Defense…rated 6th before all the trades…24th after.
Offense…do I even really need to go there. Spring training numbers…with more than 20 PA
BA above .300…Cutch .327 and Walker .313.
OBP above .350…Walker .450 and Milledge .377.
SLG above .475…Young .647, Jones .526, Pedro .519, Crosby .511, Cutch and Walker .500.
Did a quick count…with 20 PA…there are over 280 players in spring training hitting .300 or above. We have 2. With an OBP above .350…there are 301 players with more than 20 PA…again…we have 2. With Walker not on the team…that means we have ONE in each category. SLG we did a little better…there were 200 with SLG of .500 or above and we have 6…although 2 of those 6 won’t be on the roster, and 2 of the other 4 will be on the bench.
Sample sizes are an issue…but signs aren’t very good. If everyone else can hit…why can’t we??
I guess we’ve got a bunch of guys that are just going to flip a switch Monday morning and start hitting major league pitching. Something they haven’t been doing very much of over the last month.
It would be
just as irresponsible to assume spring training stats were going to correlate if every player was hitting .500.
Here are the BAs for the past 10 games...
I fail to see where there is a huge need for panic.
Aki: .313
Cutch: .355
Jones: .233
Doumit: .250
Milledge: .250
Clement: .355
Andy: .259
Cedeno: .360
Neither Andy not Jones have really caught fire to distinguish themselves, but both Milledge and Doumit were in a decent groove earlier. Milledge hasn’t hit any HRs, and Doumit just hit his 1st – right handed. It’s not like we have 8 starters hitting under .200.
by MarkInDallas on Apr 1, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Why are you so down on the pitchers?
Our top four guys in the rotation are solid, we pulled in some pretty decent relievers over the offseason, and all of the biggest arsonists from the ’09 staff (VV, Capps, Snell, Karstens, Hart) are either traded, released, or demoted.
Try It
Give Clement a try until June 1. It can’t be any worse than watching Adam LaRoche early in the year.
FINALLY!!
I read something intelligent about the Clement starting dilemma. Everyone is pissed about this, and then get upset because the Pirates have no power. Well here’s our chance at power. If he gets going, in June we could have him jones AND pedro, with POWER. add decent numbers by milledge and doumit.. I like our middle of the order coming to the all star break. And if we’re trending up going to the all star break, that’ll be a new thing in Pittsburgh
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