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Around SBN: FSU To Big 12 'Inevitable,' According To Report

Thank you, a question and a rant


It has been a while since I posted last, but I want to thank Charlie and this last bastion of true Pirate fans for keeping me from taking the leap from the Clemente Bridge.  I have never been as frustrated following the Pirates than I have been in this last week.  It has gotten to a point where I review what the minor league guys are doing and ignoring the AAA.5 team we have at the MLB level.  Thank you all for keeping it positive and understanding that there is a direction this FO is moving towards. 

With that being said, do you all truly believe that Nutting really wants us to be a contender?  I mean absolute truth here.  I have taken so much BS over the last 17 years with Cam Bonifay, Kevin McClatchy and Dave Littlefield.  All of these men were very corporate, put on a good appearance, spoke with authority and had a plan.  Their results were crap.  Nutting has said he has put together one of the best front offices in sports.  FC told the Pirates in spring training that they were the beginning of the new Pirates dynasty of winning.  I am not sure if they read "The Secret" and were trying that type of philosophy for a change, but both Nutting and FC seem really delusional to think that anything in their organization resembles "the best".     

Did I expect drastic results in 3 years of the NH/FC regime?  No, but I did expect incremental improvement.  We have drastically upgraded our minor league system and have focused on the Dominican.  These are all good long term strategies.  My concern is over the "major league talent" evaluation.  While we didnt trade the best players in the world, our "major league ready" return has been average to  below average at best.  We all know how the song of 'Best Minor League in Baseball 1997" ended.  While I dont think that this go-round is a repeat, we have to be solid at the "major league ready" talent evaluation in order to fill the gaps.  Does this have anyone else concerned?


This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

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I'm concerned...

However, the current path seems to be the only realistic path to sustainable success. That being said, the competence of the people executing the plan is still in question. While they are no longer tabula rasa, and some of the results are dubious thus far, I still think that they deserve a couple of more years before I would feel it fair to give them a clear thumbs-up or thumbs-down.

"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway

by SubLime on Apr 27, 2010 11:08 AM EDT reply actions  

You can't

Just punt whole season’s on the way to getting better. You have to focus some of your attention to the MLB level. I feel that the FO felt that all of the players would take a step forward this year and the small pieces added would make a difference.

Neither has happened, and almost the whole team has regressed. There are maybe 3 guys on the whole team performing at last years or better level. Can we blame that on Huntington?

I think we can at some point say that the Pirates FO cannot determine between fringe MLB prospect and solid MLB player. Right now it seems they are just hoping these guys turn out good or improve. When they don’t our back up plans are still 3 years away.

by eyeofhorus777 on Apr 27, 2010 11:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Of course he wants a contender.

Contenders are a license to print money.

If he didn’t want a contender, they wouldn’t be going to the trouble to rebuild for real, with the PR hit that involves. They’d just spend $50M on crappy vets and take their guaranteed profit.

by Vlad on Apr 27, 2010 11:54 AM EDT reply actions  

I really don’t think any of us anticipated when BN/FC/NH came into the picture that the restructuring of this franchise would be of such epic proportion. Sure, some of us knew it would get worse before it got better. That was expected, right?

That said, this is definitely the “Rock Bottom” point of their time here. Not the 17th straight losing season or the wholesale trades in ’08.

But, I’m not going to throw in the towel based on one bad week in late April. Maybe that makes me a “glass half full” guy, but without jest, it seriously can’t get any worse. Even if only for mathematical reasoning, the upward trend of the curve has to come sooner or later, right?

RIGHT?

"Straight ball I hit very much, but curveball, bats are afraid." - Pedro Cerrano

by silencerdu on Apr 27, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually

I don’t think we’d spend fifty but I get your point.

However you can’t just expect everyone to cream themselves when a AA player has a good game right after we 17-2 and have the worse run differential in ML history at this point in the season.

by eyeofhorus777 on Apr 27, 2010 12:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Hey, I'm not telling you how to feel.

If you want to focus on the loss and be unhappy about it, that’s certainly your choice.

by Vlad on Apr 27, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is Neil Huntigton's "fault" this year...

because he made the decision to focus on the long term over the short term. I’m not saying that is good or bad, though personally I think it’s good, just that he is sticking to the rebuilding plan and that is something that previous GM’s never did in the Burg. Coonelly stated the Neil had money to add players this year and Neil decided not to block players like Clement, Hart, Milledge, etc. He wanted to find out what we had to determine if they were part of the core and I believe that was a good decision. He got us a pen and Aki and could have complemented that with players like Nick Johnson, Rick Ankiel and I suppose Ben Sheets. Those players wouldn’t put us over the top, would only be here for one season, and totally block the players I mentioned above so we would have no idea next season if that group could perform. It sucks but we just have to ride this thing out. Things will get more interesting in the second half and we’ll start to see the future core of the team take shape.

by Slick1 on Apr 27, 2010 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Exactly

It just sucks because now we’re in the purgatory stuck with the “core” we know won’t work, and the “core” that will be brought up in June/July….

by smokedpretzels on Apr 27, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

2010 2nd Half

I worry about bringing Alvarez, Tabata, Lincoln, et al up in the 2nd half if this continues to be a total train wreck. While I didn’t expect Huntington to go after a bunch of free agents as in years past, there is some merit to having stable veterans on the team to help pull out of slides like this. Problem is, we have noone like that in the rotation or in the heart of the order where it is needed.

by wietersforpresident on Apr 27, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Somewhat Agree

I feel like we need to improve the rotation big time. Look call up Lincoln, Hart, Karstens, Veal now and let them play, they are not the future of this team, lets see how they do, cant be much worse than what we have now.

As for the order i am fine with what we have. leave alverez, tabata down in the minors until they are ready in june.

Big Question To All: What do you think of the idea of calling up Owens and Alderson to AAA and see how they fair, AND if they look good give them a chance in July to make the rotation?

by C Shint on Apr 27, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the priority is always money. That being said, I don’t think anyone WANTS to own the worst team in baseball, so…

by bluecheer on Apr 27, 2010 1:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes, I think Nutting wants to win and wants to do everything within reason to win

And the within reason part includes staying in the black and keeping the organization financially sound.

One of the worst things that has happened to the Pirates franchise was when the early 2000s teams were put together expecting them to be competitive and draw fans and they actually lost big time and attendance dropped.

At that time, they didn’t have the financial cushion to withstand the revenue loss and that’s why they had to dump valuable players like ARam.

Nutting saw that situation – in fact he had to make the call himself to dump payroll because of the hemorrhaging money situation. He is determined to not let that happen again, and so keeping the payroll within certain realistic revenue boundaries is important.

He sees the Rays and Brewers and believes things can be done like that in Pittsburgh. Those organizations had years of futility and built from the ground up.

by MarkInDallas on Apr 27, 2010 2:37 PM EDT reply actions  

The ultimate reason they dumped ARam...

…was Selig deciding to enforce the league rules on Debt-to-Equity ratio. They’d been on the books for a long time, but hadn’t been enforced, so when Bud finally decided to start paying attention to them, McClatchy had dug himself into enough of a hole that he was in a bind and needed to dump several million dollars in debt immediately.

by Vlad on Apr 27, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right.

The point is that putting together a team that you think is going to be competitive by free agent means is extremely risky if that means you have to sustain a higher attendance than the team is used to seeing. The whole “it take money to make money” fallacy of free agent spending. You might not be good, and then if you are at a point where you don’t have that cushion, then you are screwed.

by MarkInDallas on Apr 27, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

We actually had a pretty good roster put together that year. It wasn’t ludicrous to think that they could’ve contended for .500, if not the WC. But everybody started cold, and they dropped back from the get-go, and there wasn’t any hope of having increased attendance cover the increased costs.

by Vlad on Apr 27, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then McClatchy lied

PNC Park was supposed to usher in enough money to field a contender. When they dumped ARam, they were two years into PNC Park and should have been flush with revenue. It’s not like they were breaking the bank in the late ‘90s early ’00’s. McClatchy bought the team on the cheap with a zillion investors in the mid-90’s. There is no way the franchise was bankrupt.

by vanslyke on Apr 27, 2010 4:55 PM EDT reply actions  

It's not about revenue.

It’s about debt-to-equity ratio.

At the time of the trade, when the rule began to be enforced, the franchise was excessively leveraged, and the team didn’t have millions of dollars of cash on hand right at that moment to use to retire debt by the end of the day/week/whatever. So they had to dump payroll because that was the only kind of debt that could be quickly removed to get into compliance. They had initially planned on unloading Benson, but he came up with shoulder pain at the most inopportune of times, and they went into panic mode.

They probably should’ve known that they would need to comply at some point, and they probably could’ve gotten into compliance at the start of the year without any roster craziness if they’d known at that time that they needed to do so. They just got caught flat-footed, and Bud had them by the short hairs, so they did what they had to do.

[Please note that I’m not excusing them for fucking up. I just want to make clear that it’s a different kind of fuck-uppery than is commonly supposed by the general fan population.]

by Vlad on Apr 27, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

They more than doubled payroll in the first season at PNC to nearly league average. $58M in 2001 would be like $80M today. So they were not lying when they said it would increase revenue and allow them to raise payroll. The problem with how they did it was that they did not allow a cheap team to come together and produce a cushion of revenue in case of unforeseen events, like the team sucking.

by MarkInDallas on Apr 27, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

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