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Around SBN: Is Adebayor About To Become A Full-Time Spur?

Pirates Learn Kevin Hart Has Torn Labrum

This isn't good. Labrum tears are awful, awful injuries for pitchers. Last year the Pirates acquired Hart with Jose Ascanio and Josh Harrison from the Cubs for John Grabow and Tom Gorzelanny; Ascanio went down with serious shoulder issues almost immediately, and now Hart is down too. (Harrison, mercifully, is hitting very well for Altoona.) This probably explains Hart's terrible play in Spring Training, which I suppose is good news. The bad news is that torn labrums can wreck a pitcher's career. There are some pitchers who've come back from them--Gil Meche and Jon Rauch have had good major league careers after having labrum surgery. And Chris Carpenter missed 2003 with a torn labrum, then had a Hall-of-Fame-quality peak. But prospects are still bleak.

Hart is scheduled to see Dr. James Andrews, and it's still possible at this stage that Andrews will suggest something other than surgery. When Josh Beckett was 19, a doctor told him he'd have to have labrum surgery. Beckett went to Andrews for a second opinion and Andrews said surgery wasn't necessary, and Beckett has gone on to have a good major league career. So let's hope that's what happens in this case.

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That trade sure turned out well. Maybe Josh Harrison should start wearing a suit of armor around.

by WTM on Apr 30, 2010 6:48 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't know, Wilbur...

maybe bubble wrap would work better.

by Thunder on Apr 30, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not that I’m losing any sleep over what we gave up.

by matskralc on Apr 30, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

Despite being 0-3 this season, Gorzelanny hasn’t been to shabby this year.

by IAPiratesFan on Apr 30, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

No guarantee...

he would have came back and pitched well in Pittsburgh. He was a classic case of needing a change of scenery

by goodtymes31 on Apr 30, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Commandment V:

Thou shalt not tradith with the Cubs. If thou go against my wishes, I shall smite thine players aquired in trade.

"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce

by gorillakilla34 on Apr 30, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trading with the Giants

hasn’t worked real well either. Like the Jason Schmidt trade.

by Thunder on Apr 30, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point...

that’s two teams we need to scratch off the list come July.

by Slick1 on Apr 30, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

What’s funny is that I would not place those two teams atop the list of well-run franchises. Maybe the Pirates should also avoid trading with the Mets, just to be sure.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 30, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Got Shaun Dunston in 97.

From what I can tell, that was the last trade that favored the Pirates. I never found out what exactly the Cubs got out of it.

by IAPiratesFan on Apr 30, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thats rough

I had the same surgery and still haven’t been able to get my shoulder back to normal after a year and a half. I have a friend who had the same thing two years ago but is actually a pitcher and he lost seven mph off his fastball.

by thecheeseisblue on Apr 30, 2010 6:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Wasn't Ascaino's injury the same thing?

over/under on Harrison’s labrum failure? August?

by Mr. E on Apr 30, 2010 7:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, if the Curve are getting blown out and need a position player to throw an inning, we know who it shouldn’t be.

by WTM on Apr 30, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, Ascaino’s shoulder problem was also labrum.

by MarkInDallas on May 1, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, at least now we can stop hearing about

How the Bay trade was the worst trade in history.

by MarkInDallas on Apr 30, 2010 9:20 PM EDT reply actions  

mark do you think that hart turns out to be injured

his suspension gets voided. it was a bogus susp.to begin with.

by karreemofwheat on Apr 30, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you check what Bryan Morris, LaRoche and Bay are doing this year, the wailing about that trade may have been premature anyway.

by WTM on Apr 30, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

C'mon

Bay is done wrt the trade – he had 1.5 monster seasons for the Sox. Dinging that side of the trade is like saying the Sox giving up Ruth was ok because he was ineffectual as a Brave.

That said, I agree that the return is looking ok with Morris back on track. He doesn’t need to be a big ML producer, but as long as he’s not a bust, NH doesn’t look like an idiot.

by JRoth95 on Apr 30, 2010 11:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

A big part of the objection to the trade was the notion that the Pirates should extend Bay and build the team around him. Dejan used to bring that up, if I remember right. The idea that they could extend him was totally unrealistic, of course, but that was the idea.

If the wailing is based solely on 1.5 seasons—actually one and a third—it’s just plain foolish, because the Pirates weren’t going anywhere during that time anyway.

by WTM on May 1, 2010 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

A big part of the rush to trade

Was the idea that Bay’s value was due to plummet, because he was “injury-prone,” and that if wasn’t traded in mid-2008, the Pirates were likely to get very little for him.

As long as we’re reminding each other what the sides were claiming.

by JRoth95 on May 1, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not so much that he was injury-prone...

…as it is that the knee was likely to degnerate with the passage of time, and posed a risk for re-injury as well.

Given that the Red Sox cut their offer to him in FA last offseason after looking at scans of the knee, it seems that such concerns were reasonable.

by Vlad on May 3, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, of course I was joking about that. But I wasn’t joking that some people will start to call losing Gorzo for 2 labrum cases the worst trade in history.

by MarkInDallas on May 1, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Naw

Jermaine Allensworth for 2 kicks to the crotch was a worse trade.

by JRoth95 on May 1, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

The most recent Pirate...

…to successfully come back from a torn labrum is probably Dave Williams. Tore his in 2002, and was an average-ish SP for us again in 2004-5.

It’s also worth noting that pretty much all pitchers have a torn labrum, to one degree or another. The motion involved in throwing a baseball 90+ MPH is unnatural, and often the decision on surgery vs. not-surgery is a judgment call on the part of the doctor. In general, the larger and more numerous the tears, the greater the need for surgery, and the lower the chances of recovery. It’s also not always entirely clear what the state of the shoulder will be until they open it up and have a look. J.R. House was one guy where they anticipated one prognosis (a small-to-mid-size tear) and found a different one when they actually started cutting (several significant tears, plus a partially torn rotator cuff and friction-related bone damage). It sometimes happens the other way around, too, though that’s less common.

They’ve gotten much better with shoulders over the last ten years. It used to be a death sentence, career-wise. Now, it’s only mostly a death sentence.

by Vlad on May 1, 2010 6:36 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Wasn’t Sean Burnett a pitcher with a labrum issue?

by Brakeman8 on May 1, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

Labrum and TJ both. But he’s kind of a marginal contributor, so I wasn’t counting him. Williams probably provided more value in 2004 than Burnett has in his entire career.

by Vlad on May 3, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

They’ve gotten much better with shoulders over the last ten years. It used to be a death sentence, career-wise. Now, it’s only mostly a death sentence.

Maybe they should call Miracle Max.

by Traco Bucco on May 1, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I also think that with this news...

…it would make more sense now than ever to sign Seth McClung, who to the best of my knowledge hasn’t caught on anywhere since being cut by the Marlins in spring training. He’s been a solid long reliever and surprisingly decent fill-in starter for the Brewers the last couple of years. Give him a minor league deal and a few weeks at Indy to get himself back into game shape, and then see where we are.

by Vlad on May 1, 2010 6:50 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

If we don't sign someone with MLB experience

Can we assume we are punting the season just to look at everyone in the minors? To me unless someone is ready to come up why not use a stop gap who might actually keep the team from losing? Running out retreads from within just doesn’t make sense when there are cheap alternatives.

by eyeofhorus777 on May 1, 2010 10:47 AM EDT reply actions  

Season was punted a long time ago

I think the FO genuinely hoped that things would work out to a pleasant surprise, but they did very little to stabilize, much less improve, for 2010. In fact, NH said the other day that this year’s BP was less a change in philosophy than a matter of not having a choice – in previous years, they thought they had the arms to muddle through, but looking to 2010 they didn’t think they had even that. I’m happy with the BP, but it wasn’t constructed as part of an effort to build a good 2010 team.

by JRoth95 on May 1, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

But

couldn’t we have just kept Capps and Chavez and Steven Jackson and Karstens? It sure seems like they made a conscious choice to replace those guys. Unless I’m misunderstanding.

And yes, we def should have gotten one more veteran starter on a short term deal. We had the money but NH wanted to see Hart and DMac. We still would have been able to call up guys when you think of how often pitchers get injured and even if not, whomever we signed would have been easily moveable at the deadline to ensure a spot for the youth.

by Mr. E on May 1, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

That decision sure looks like a grave miscalculation at this point.

by MarkInDallas on May 3, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah we're so screwed with out pitching

D-Cutch gets hammered when he’s up in the ML, Morton, though finally had a respectable game, is (0-5). Alderson looks to be getting worst by the month. And Lincoln has issues he needs to figure out quickly.

What young pitchers have shown promise thus far? I don’ know much about Owens, Morris, or Locke. Is anyone excited about where they may be in a year or two?

by dulciusXasperis on May 1, 2010 10:57 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm excited about all of the guys you mention...except Alderson.

I’m still really high on Lincloln. I think he will be a really nice pitcher for us. I also like what I see from Veal. I think he has as much upside as anyone in the org right now. Only problem with those two is that even though they are in AAA they are not ready to step up and compete at the major league level. Our pitching depth this year was supposed to come mainly from Hart and McCutchen until Lincoln, and possible Veal, had sufficiently developed. Now with Hart going down (and obviously Ohlendorf’s unexpected injury) the depth is gone. Karsens has been a nice surprise so far and so has Burress even if those starts were the best they give. At the end of the day, McCutchen needs to take his diapers off and man up.

by Slick1 on May 1, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Last part probably a little too harsh on McCutchen, the guy is a competitor.

And truthfully I would have ran him out there a couple more times before sending him down. I think he has more upsdie than Karstens, even if it is just a little bit.

by Slick1 on May 1, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm thinking

that No Relation will be up again this year. I think that, with the overall situation, they decided to see what else might work out rather than keep running him out and hoping. 2 solid months in AAA and he’ll be back to the front of the list for the next callup.

by JRoth95 on May 1, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

With our ML staff

2 more STARTS like last night and he’ll be back up. The squirrel master can’t protect Burress and Karstens forever.

by Mr. E on May 1, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm?

How long until Ohlie is back to starting? I thought the back spasms were minor and he’d be back in a couple of rotations.

by BlindSquirrel on May 2, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

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