Danny Moskos' Mysterious Slider

The Post-Gazette's new article has more references to Danny Moskos' supposedly brilliant slider, which seems to be as elusive as Sasquatch. Has anyone here seen Moskos pitch this year? I ask because in the times I've seen him pitch, including in the Arizona Fall League just a few months ago, he hasn't thrown a slider, let alone a good slider. He's had a mediocre fastball, a mediocre curve (that I suppose some might call a slider because it doesn't break much), and a decent changeup with some late movement. Maybe his stuff has changed now that he's in the bullpen full-time? Somebody help me out here.

The continued references to Moskos' awesome slider are baffling to me, because when Moskos was drafted, the P-G quoted a talent evaluator saying Moskos had a wipeout slider. I then saw him pitch the day after the draft and... he wasn't throwing a slider so much as he was throwing a mediocre slurvy breaking pitch that was six to ten MPH slower than his slider was reported to be and that broke in about the way a curveball usually does. Anyone who saw that pitch as a "wipeout slider" needed to have their eyes checked. What gives? Does Moskos throw this mysterious slider on some days and not others?

Anyway, the P-G's article today also says that Moskos has a 90-95 MPH fastball and an 84-87 MPH slider, which makes me think that either Moskos has improved a lot in six months, or that this description of his stuff exists mostly in the realm of fantasy. I'm not sure I've seen any recent reports that suggest that Moskos can get anywhere near 95, and his breaking ball doesn't approach the mid-80s, either.

UPDATE: Some folks at OnlyBucs are wondering the same thing about Moskos' velocity.

UPDATE II: In the comments, Azibuck points out that the issue of whether he throws a slider could have more to do with the way he's gripping the ball than with the way the pitch looks coming to the plate. Which would basically mean that Moskos throws a bad slider that looks like a curveball but that is, nonetheless, a slider.

about 2 years ago Charlie Wilmoth 24 comments 0 recs |

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Help, please

Can someone who understands these things please reconcile this statement for me:

“Last year, when he started, he would actually start off not throwing as hard as when he finished,” Walbeck said. “He would be on his 100th pitch throwing harder than he was on his fifth pitch. So, we knew right there this guy had the closer mentality.”

I would think throwing softer on your first 20 pitches than your 100th would make you more of a starter, no? Doesn’t that mean that you don’t get to your maximum pitch potential in a single inning? Just out of curiosity, is there any reason to believe he can be a starter if he has greater velocity as he increases his pitchcount, is now throwing in the low to mid 90s and has developed a much improved slider?

I guess what I’m getting at is that although there’s no reason to make up for the overdraft at #4, are there any logical justifications for trying to force him back into a starting role in the hopes he can develop into a mid to back end of the rotation guy? Just seems like such a wasted pick – I’m having a hard time being happy about him even developing into a solid reliever.

by 16andCounting on May 22, 2010 3:47 PM EDT reply actions

I tend to think all these quotes are just smoke and mirrors and he’s exactly what he appears to be—a generic lefty reliever. FWIW, though, I took Walbeck’s quote to mean that he has that fiery attitude we associate with being a closer.

by Charlie Wilmoth on May 22, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Yep

Daisuke Matsuzaka’s gyroball comes to mind as another example of the same phenomenon. His slider may move a little differently than most, but this “wipeout slider” stuff sounds like pure marketing hype.

by maguro on May 22, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions

What’s weird, though, is that in this article, it’s his pitching coach who’s referring to his great slider. That’s why I can’t dismiss it entirely—surely his pitching coach has some investment in appearing to know what he’s talking about.

by Charlie Wilmoth on May 22, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions

He has just about doubled his K/9 this season...

I can’t chalk this all up to experience. While I’m skeptical myself until I see him in person, or a legit scouting report, logic would seem to dictate that he is throwing with better stuff.

by Slick1 on May 22, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Experience

And moving from starting to relieving just about explains it, I think. Ron Uviedo struck out 7.2 per 9 last year as a starter, and is averaging 11.4Ks per 9 this year out of the bullpen. IMO, Danny’s going to pitch in the majors for a few years but he’s still nothing to get excited about, just another guy.

by maguro on May 22, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions

You're probably right...

I’m just keeping an open mind til I can see him throw or read a current scouting report.

by Slick1 on May 23, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

While we would think that self-interest,

ethos in this case, would be a concern, it appears more and more that many of us get sucked up into an organizational line (kind of a micro propaganda program in the Ellul sense) at the expense of what’s truly advantageous personally.

"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway

by SubLime on May 22, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Hypothetically......

If these things are all true (fastball in mid 90s and improving slider), should they attempt to move him back to starting?

I know its seems like a useless excercise of the mind because A. he was a reliever in college B. he seems to like relieving and C. his record as a starter has been uh…. horrific, but in this dream scenario his “stuff” has improved dramatically.

Out of curiosity, why was Moskos at least considerly highly by some people that year? i know nobody except Littlefield would have drafted him 4th but what DID he do well that got him 1st round consideration?

by 16andCounting on May 22, 2010 4:40 PM EDT reply actions

As I wrote last fall, I saw him throw some good sliders in Arizona. Not “wipeout,” though. Definitely didn’t see anything close to mid-90s velocity.

by bolton on May 22, 2010 4:45 PM EDT reply actions

That’s right; I’d forgotten about that. Did you see his slider and curve as being two different pitches, or did he just throw one breaking ball the whole time?

by Charlie Wilmoth on May 22, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Slider/curve

I haven’t seen Moskos since that day after the draft, but my best guess is that he throws a slider because it’s more about his grip/arm action. The break of the pitch may make it look like a curve (good or bad, or mediocre), but if he’s not gripping and flipping like a “traditional” curve, then they’re calling it a slider. A pitcher’s curve is very rarely within 10mph of a his fastball.

As long as he (and no other Pirate pitcher or prospect) does that arm-killing doorknob crap (see Wells, Kip), they can call it whatever they want. They should teach the Carlton slider. Key phrase, “”http://www.carlton32.com/slider.html" >… you throw it just like your fastball. The ball should just begin to spin automatically when you release it."

by azibuck on May 22, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Carlton used to say

that the release of the slider should be like reaching out and flicking down an old school window shade (the kind with the little ring on a string). I did that and my elbow has hurt since 1975.

"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway

by SubLime on May 22, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Ok. Thanks. This is the kind of thing I don’t know because I didn’t play. FWIW, I don’t think Moskos’ breaking ball was within 10 MPH of his fastball, either. When he pitched for Clemson it was 75-79. Which is a bit hard for a curve, but this 85-87 MPH stuff is nonsense.

by Charlie Wilmoth on May 22, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions

I can’t remember, but I definitely saw sliders. I was in the scouts section behind home plate, so I had a good look. Overall, he still seemed like a non-prospect. If they didn’t have names on their jerseys, you would have never guessed he was an early round pick.

by bolton on May 22, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Moskos

I haven’t seen Moskos for a while, but here is my perspective.

As you would expect, he has gained a few mph on his fastball coming out of the pen.

But I’ve never seen the wipeout slider either. I saw an okay slurve in college.

I suspect that his 95 mph velocity out of the pen explains why he was viewed as a #10 pick in the draft by some talent evaluators. That being said, he was an obvious overdraft because his upside was of a closer. Today, I’d say he looks like an 8th inning guy.

But I don’t get DK’s story. That seemed like something you’d see on the Pirates blog, not serious journalism. Moskos is not an elite closing prospect.

by Bernie6 on May 22, 2010 11:32 PM EDT reply actions

DK didn’t write it, which explains a lot.

by Charlie Wilmoth on May 23, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions

no matter who wrote it

the word “slider” appears exactly three times in the article. In only one instance (the second) does it come with any kind of modifier – it’s described as a “put away” pitch. In the first appearance, it’s noted that the slider is attracting attention; the third instance is neutral.

This article hardly sounds like any kind of overhype job. It’s pretty much describing the success he’s been having to date.

The “wipeout” description appears in the article when he was drafted, which has no relevance to this latest piece.

by mocasdad on May 23, 2010 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions

If it's not a "put-away slider" (a pretty strong descriptor)...

…then they shouldn’t describe it as such. If it IS a put-away slider, that represents a significant improvement on what he was throwing in the fairly recent past.

Which is it?

by Vlad on May 24, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions

Charlie

You are correct. I skimmed the article and based my posting on memory. Bad move.

But Slick makes a good point on the velocity. He is not regularly pounding the strike zone at 95 mph. If he can develop a solid slider, he could close. I don’t think he’ll ever be a great one. But it’s possible. He doesn’t have overwhelming stuff and walks too many people.

I’d say John Grabow is a more likely outcome.

by Bernie6 on May 23, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions

The velocity statement is misleading...

What was written was that Moskos throws his heater from 90-95 mph. That is misleading. What should should have been written is that Moskos sits with his fastball comfortably 90-93 mph and has hit 95 mph this season. That is scout speak and is a much more accurate way of telling you where his fastball lives and where maxed out (maybe one time on one juiced gun) this season. That said, if Moskos is living in the 90-93 mph range I’d be happy with that as that is an improvement from where he has been and more than enough juice for a lefty reliever to be effective. His ceiling will ultimately be decided by the effectivess of the slider. With a plus slider he could be a closer. With a slurvy slider he’s a setup man (at best). Moskos’ fastball at the reported velocity will most likely get him to the majors because it has really nice sink and induces a lot of groundballs. Like Charlie, I need some current info on the slider. The only scouting report I’ve seen on him recently was done in spring training. He was throwing the heater 90-93 with good sink but apparently didn’t throw any sliders.

by Slick1 on May 23, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions