Would Jermaine Dye be a fit in Pittsburgh?
by Sir Bob Errey on Jun 1, 2010 1:19 AM EDT
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PrintI don't think it's news to anybody that the Pirates are not a contending team this season. From nearly Day 1, this season has been looked on as a bridge to the future, where the best things to happen this summer wouldn't be chasing a Central Division title, but instead looking forward to the debuts of the coined Fab Four. Currently, it's one down and three to go.
But even so, it's not the same. In the first half of the 2008 season, the Bucs were an incredibly entertaining team that could score runs with anybody. They also gave up a seemingly infinite number of runs in the process, but nonetheless it was an enjoyable team to watch. Conversely, the 2009 team also had it's moments, but instead from the mound, where the staff posted Top 10 numbers in quality starts. Maybe not as thrilling, but it was something to be proud of anyway.
Which brings us to the 2010 version of the Pirates.
2010 Batting: 29th in Runs scored, 29th in OBP, 25th in HR, 25th in XBH
2010 Pitching: 29th in ERA, 28th in QS, 28th in BAA, 29th in OTB.
Dismal on both fronts.
That's not even bringing up the defense, which has committed 38 errors. Now what does any of this have to do with Jermaine Dye?
There's no quick fix to the starting rotation. The idea of Dontrelle Willis has been thrown about, but that would be almost certainly a fruitless experiment. Reluctantly, there appears to be one starting job open and bringing in Willis would only block the path of Lincoln. But, could we help the run production by bringing in Dye as a fourth outfielder?
He may be 36 years old and he may be more of a DH than an outfielder now. But it's obvious what he can bring. 27 homers, 81 RBI last season in addition to an entire body of work that includes a World Series MVP with the White Sox and four 100+ RBI seasons. Currently, he could play RF with ease while GFJ is at 1B or LF platooning with Lastings Milledge. It's not necessary to mention that he would be a great fit at DH in a short time when the Pirates make their annual visits to AL yards, but I'll say it anyway. I think just about everyone would agree that Ryan Church is hopeless and should not be playing. If he was to be demoted/released in favor of Dye, who would complain? Not I, said the long-suffering leftfield lunatic.
No, he wouldn't probably be an everyday player, assuming Jose Tabata is called up at some point in the relatively near future. But the demand for Dye seems to be nonexistent or someone would have signed him by this point, because the Pirates aren't THE worst offense in baseball, and I feel like it would be an appropriate gamble to take in order to give the offense a little jump start.
Only an idea, but I'm pretty pessimistic on the chances. Any other thoughts on the idea?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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’’I’m not going to a bad team, and I’m not playing for $1.5million,’’ Dye said.
The reason he’s unemployed isn’t because no one has made an offer, it’s because he isn’t interested in what’s out there. Dye told the Nationals that he wasn’t interested in moving his family to play there when they offered a starting job. Eric Chavez recently said that he speaks to Dye regularly and he’s comfortable being home with his family and isn’t even working out.
Hmmm.
Then I wonder, why wouldn’t he just announce his retirement? If there’s only a few teams he’d even consider playing for, and none of them want him, why would he keep his name out there? He’s played the game for a long time, so he obviously enjoys it for some reason or another. You’d think a veteran like him would like mentoring fine young hitters like McCutchen, Alvarez and Tabata.
I’d also like to see what would happen if we offered him Iwamura-ish money to be a fourth outfielder. Worse comes to worst, he would play for us until the trading deadline then move to a different club, using the Pirates to help him regain his form.
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
by Sir Bob Errey on Jun 1, 2010 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions
He won't announce his retirement...
…because he’s still open to playing if he gets a starting offer close to home for something approximating his 2009 salary, and he apparently doesn’t realize how unlikely it is that that’ll happen.
Even if he weren’t probably unwilling to sign, I still wouldn’t want him. Last year, despite the home runs, he was a below-average corner outfielder purely on offense (103 OPS+). And that’s without considering his totally inept defense, probably on the order of a -20 or something in that vicinity.
I’d rather give the extra PA to the outfielders we have on hand. Use them to get Tabata more thoroughly acclimated to the majors, or make a more thorough roster determination on Milledge for 2011, etc.
That’s a fair enough stance. I agree entirely, nobody could or would even think about paying him some $12 million at this point in his career. Which really breaks it down to how much he still wants to play.
I know he’s not the world’s greatest outfielder, but he does have some things going for him. First, playing RF at PNC Park is probably the least involved position on the field. McCutchen can cover so much ground in center that it’s more like just covering the corner in RF, because if it’s hit on the fly with any power, it’s out of the park. Second, if my choice is between Church and Dye, I would go with Dye as a 4th outfielder easily. Just move Jones to 1st when Tabata gets a promotion and then we’re all set.
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
by Sir Bob Errey on Jun 1, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
We already had Jermaine.
In 2006 he played here under the name Jeromy Burnitz.
Apart from the fact that Burnitz had one decent season in 10 years before coming to the Pirates, being at Coors Field, yes we’ve had Dye.
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
by Sir Bob Errey on Jun 1, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
You sell Burnitz short.
By any reasonable measure, he was at least “decent” in 1996-1999, 2001, and 2004.
Still a terrible acquisition for us at the time, of course. But he was a solid regular when he was in his prime.
Even if RF helps cover his shortcomings in home games...
…that still makes him maybe a -15 defender at best, which is still pretty terrible. Keep in mind that UZR last year had him at -26/150 games, and -20 or worse in each of his last four seasons. Trending down, too. Even if you assume a modest offensive rebound from him (which may or may not be within his grasp – he is 36 after all), he’s still only barely going to cover for that glove with his bat.
Jermaine Dye AKA....
Turner Ward, Derek Bell, Jeromy Burnitz, Reggie Sanders, Daryle Ward, Raul Mondesi, etc, etc, etc.
Maybe Richie Sexson is available. Where are Joey Bats, Ty Wigginton, and Matt Capps when you need them? Oh yeah, kicking a$$ for other teams.
by SovietColonel on Jun 1, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember when we tried to sign Wigginton...
…in the offseason between ’08 and ’09, and he said no and signed somewhere else, and then some guy on the internet complained about us not signing guys like Wigginton?
That was awesome! We should do it again!
Hey - lay off Turner Ward.
He can’t help it if he’s not really very good…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 1, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
He wont ever be a Bucco because..
The Pirates are so racist! Just like every other team in baseball. All the front offices in the MLB think that black players should have to still play in the Negro Leagues. Thats why the Pirates dont want Dye and its just plain sad. Right O-Dawg?
I’ll play along, even though the Pirates best player by a couple hundred nautical miles is black. But we aren’t talking about the Pirates management, would YOU sign Dye if you were the GM?
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
by Sir Bob Errey on Jun 1, 2010 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I would.
Just so the guy JR can’t help but pencil in the line up every day isn’t Ryan Church. But this is just fantasy on so many levels..
1. I’m not the GM.
2. Dye would never sign here, especially for what he’s worth.
3. JR is currently in love with Church and would be upset with having to decide which over the hill outfielder to start over Lastings.
4. According to the late John Murtha western Pennsylvanians are racist and I’m from the Pittsburgh area so if I was GM I’d totally be too much of a racist to sign Dye.
Was that any help?
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 1, 2010 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
It is fantasy.
1. No kidding, none of us are (unless of course Huntington uses an alias on BD).
2. You wouldn’t think so, but who knows? If it comes down to no money or a couple million from the Pirates, I know which one I would take. Any number is better than 0, especially when you’re a 36 year old athlete.
3. I wouldn’t even say Dye is over the hill, he’s averaged 30+ homers and 90+ RBIs over the past 5 seasons. I want Milledge to play more, but a platoon with Dye would work nicely too.
4. He might be right but that’s no excuse to not sign a player that would help the team immensely.
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
by Sir Bob Errey on Jun 1, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
He was joking.
Orlando Hudson made some widely-mocked remarks about institutional racism in MLB, to which Omar was referring.
No? I’m pretty sure taking someone out of the lineup that’s batting .200 in favor of a guy that has the potential to hit home runs every time at bat would be a major improvement.
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
by Sir Bob Errey on Jun 1, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Ugh... And what major improvement do you think this would accomplish?
If you really think Dye would be enough to jump us into the wild card hunt, and you can back that up, then sure I’m willing to hear you out, but if not then this move actually hurts the team.
The biggest thing for me is a lack of position. You may be forgetting we have Alvarez and Tabata not too far off. If you want Dye then essentially Jones is forced back to first.
Dye would force out a majority of playing time from Milledge, Clement, LaRoche (Pedro has nowhere but third in this scenario), and Pearce. Now, you may say that’s a good thing, but to me, I think we’ve still got to give these guys some more time, especially Andy.
Would Dye technically be an upgrade over what we’re sending out there now? Debatable, but I’d say yes he would. Would Dye be detrimental to the development of several guys under 27? Undoubtedly.
No. Dye would not propel this team into wildcard contention, he’s not Albert Pujols. But he would be a big improvement by the way that he would create a number of more runs than what we’re scoring right now, which is nearly dead last in the majors. It’s not so much just that, it’s the ripple effect. The team right now, for lack of better words, is painful to watch on a nightly basis. If you add a big bat like Dye, the team suddenly becomes more entertaining because they’ll score more, so more people are willing to watch. Also, it helps the pitching staff, knowing that they don’t need to be perfect every time out, the offense will help out.
Lack of position? Well, if you read this site commonly, you’d get the impression that neither Pedro or Tabata will see Pittsburgh until at least 2011. Pedro couldn’t hit left handed pitching to save his life and he strikes out with epic frequency. Tabata has no power whatsoever.
If you want Dye then essentially Jones is forced back to first.
Is this a bad thing? Jones has been productive as a player since he came up last summer. Two things are also very clear. A) The Pirates have a quite a few capable outfielders and B) The Pirates don’t have a first baseman. You can take the chances that Clement suddenly becomes a power 1B but until that day, I’d much rather go with the proven commodity where there’s a hole.
How would Dye hurt the development of younger players? He could help their growth and the main factor here is Church, he’d be the one to go if Dye came in as a 4th outfielder. Would anyone complain about that tradeoff?
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
by Sir Bob Errey on Jun 1, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
As with my above post...
…I have to dispute the idea that Dye would necessarily be much of an upgrade, much less a “big” one. His glove gives him huge, huge negative value, for which I do not believe that you are properly accounting.
The main way in which Dye would hurt the development of younger players would be by stealing playing time from them.
I don’t see where the gargantuan negative is coming from. He had a fielding % of .980 last year and over .990 in both of the previous 2 seasons playing 130+ games in RF.
Going by the fact that McCutchen and Jones have already committed 3 errors each this year, while Dye had 5 all of 2009, I’m not seeing that same huge negative. You give the image that he’s aimlessly jogging around in RF trying to catch flyballs barehanded.
Every team needs a 4th outfielder. He would allow Jones to play 1B at times, take an occasional afternoon in left when Milledge sits and then feature as our primary DH when we make the trips to Oakland, Detroit and Texas.
That's like a pumpkin pie right in the face!
by Sir Bob Errey on Jun 1, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
He has no range.
None at all. He can move about three steps to his left and three steps to his right when in pursuit of fly balls. As such, he allows enormous numbers of hits on catchable balls and extra-base hits on balls that could be cut off. It has been at least a moderate issue since he broke his leg on that foul ball, and has gotten significantly worse with age.
The lack of range...
…is actually one of the things holding down his error total. He almost never gets close enough to fly balls to handle them, which cuts down on his opportunities to misplay them.
You’ll never get an error on a ball you can’t reach.
Not to mention
his immobility on offense, as well… if it ain’t a homer, it’s a single, ‘cause he sure as hell ain’t getting a double out of anything that doesn’t bounce over the fence.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 1, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
The Pirates have plenty of 4th OFs:
they’ve been starting on either side of Andrew McCutchen for the past year.
by patthatt on Jun 1, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now you want Dye as a 4th outfielder? Steep price to pay for a 4th outfielder.
Vlad nailed it. Playing time was exactly what I was talking about with the development of young players.
I, unlike most here, think Tabata will be up very soon, and Pedro not too far after. Even if neither is up at all in 2010, that’s still stealing valuable “experiment” time away from Milledge, Clement, and Pearce. The results haven’t been good, and I Dye would probably be an upgrade for the remainder of this season.
Look at it this way: Let’s say we sign Dye and Milledge, Clement, and Pearce are all given the bust tag based on what we’ve already seen. In two years, Dye will be retired. In two years (hopefully) the Pirates will be contenders for the division. If any of Milledge, Clement, or Pearce begins to play consistently this season and becomes even a valuable, cheap 4th outfielder/backup 1st baseman, signing Dye is a detriment.
At-bats and time in the field are a commodity in themselves. All Dye does right now, other than MAYBE win the team 2-3 more games this season, is cloud the picture with the three above mentioned guys.
ONLY under these circumstances will I agree with you...
…we find a trade partner for Ryan Church that agrees to take on the remainder of his salary.
…we tell Jermaine Dye straight up he’s a 4th outfielder and nothing more, barring injury.
…we sign him for under $1,000,000.
If all three happen, then I really don’t see Vlad, myself, or anyone else really disagreeing with you. I’ll take Dye’s bat over Church’s defense most days. You’ve got to realize how incredibly unlikely any of those three scenarios would be to occur, much less all three scenarios. That’s about the only positive light I’d see in signing Dye, other than a few more HRs and a meaningless extra win or two.
We just wasted almost $5 million on Akinori Iwamura.
Why waste a million more on some unmotivated, has-been like Dye?
Spend more on the draft and in Latin America.
Someone should tell him...
His balls are hanging out.
by IAPiratesFan on Jun 1, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"Would Jermaine Dye be a fit in Pittsburgh?"
You forgot the “HELL NO” option in the poll.
Sir Bob Errey
Did Orlando Hudson put you up to this?
Jermaine Dye in RF the second half of this season
would be like reliving the Joggin’ George Hendrick show there in ’85.
I was thinking
“Operation Shutdown II.” Dye could dock his boat right outside the ballpark.
racism
torii hunter made comment about this i think during the spring.
Why stop with Jermaine Dye? Why not get Pat Burrell as well?
Have them flank Cutch and see how fast he really is.
Yesh!
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 1, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
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