Why Not Let Ryan Doumit DH?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 14, 2010 2:00 AM EDT
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PrintThis from general manager Neal Huntington, on the decision to play Ryan Doumit at first base this past week while he recovered from concussion-like symptoms: "We talked about it a lot internally. ... [He] gets worn down if we catch him six, seven days a week. So we've talked about a Victor Martinez scenario where Ryan gets a couple of games a week at first, maybe three over two weeks."
Huntington said that they discussed adding a third catcher for interleague play, just so Doumit could DH and the team wouldn't get left without a backup.
"The big play [Saturday] night," Huntington added, referring to a seventh-inning error that lead to two Detroit runs, "allows for second-guessing, but, as we look forward, there is a chance Ryan Doumit will continue to play first base as well as catch."
The idea here is that if you have a guy DH, you can't have him playing in the field later in the game. So if the Pirates had Doumit DH and something happened to Jason Jaramillo, they'd be left without a backup catcher. But why should we care about this? Neil Walker caught for several years in the minors; would it really be a disaster if he were forced to catch for three innings? If it would be a disaster, would that disaster honestly be any worse than playing Doumit at first base?
Not to pile on, but: Doumit isn't a first baseman. One of the most important skills for a first baseman is the ability to catch a ball that's thrown at you hard and not necessarily right at your glove, and we already know from watching Doumit behind that plate that he does not possess that skill. That Doumit's error on Saturday was so costly was bad luck, but some pretty serious flubs will be inevitable if the Pirates continue to put him there.
Doumit isn't as good a hitter as Victor Martinez, but I can understand why the Pirates would want to get him into the lineup more frequently than a typical catcher. Unfortunately, the Bucs had a perfect opportunity to harmlessly work Doumit's bat into the lineup this weekend, and they didn't take it. Think of it this way--Doumit is an incompetent first baseman; Walker is (probably) an incompetent catcher. What's worse, nine innings of incompetent play at first base or the remote possibility of three innings of incompetent play at catcher? I know which one I'd pick.
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The only possible thing I can think of...
is that the FO wants to showcase Doumit at 1B for trade value…This is the only way I would justify them playing him there when we could’ve DHed him. That being said, it can’t do a whole lot for his trade value if any possible suitors were to actually WATCH him play 1B and see how awful he is out there
Benny Benack III
Agree...
but I am not sure if it was for 1B, I think it was to simply show that he can play. That his concussions and wrist issues arent of concern.
That said it didnt exactly bathe himself in glory @ 1B or frankly at all this season @ C…DH is his only hope – he cant play anywhere else.
Not only that, but...
The issue of the DH is really only applicable for 6 innings or so. After that, you normally would use a pinch hitter anyway. So, wow…we suffered through losing 2 games to Detroit simply because there MIGHT have been 2 or 3 at bats by the pitcher.
Yikes!
It’s times like these that make me realize that JR has no understanding of the probabilities of baseball.
NH may have recommended it to JR, but ultimately it’s the manager, not the GM, who sets the lineup, so regardless of what NH was thinking, JR definitely should’ve realized that putting Doumit at 1st was a bad idea, at least compared with letting him DH.
In all seriousness
I see this as a decent idea most likey orchestrated by NH. One of two things happens. Doumit looks good and we move him for more (since his value is higher) or he looks bad as he has and we stay even with Baltimore.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jun 14, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
After hearing NH talk about it, I'm convinced it was a JR decision.
NH wouldn’t have thrown JR under the bus for a decision he made. NH has two ways of describing things:
A) We wanted to get Ryan some reps at first base. (See above in the post)
B) JR felt he didn’t want to risk losing the DH if JJ had to leave the game. (This was said on his radio show)
To me, this makes it clear that the decision to play Doumit at first sometimes was an organizational decision (which NH has final say over) and the decision to play Doumit at 1B instead of DH was JR’s decision.
This is not the first time JR has shown he can’t calculate probabilities, so I have no reason to further doubt that this fiasco is squarely on JR’s shoulders.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 14, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
trade value
his bat is nice for a catcher ,but he can’t throw runners out, will make it hard for a playoff contender to have him catch. so show he can play some first and maybe a few right fields starts and create more value.
by wishiewashie on Jun 14, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe not
Maybe not with this team. If the FO is trying to trade Doumit (pretty likely), than their directive would supercede JR’s wishes.
Jake Fox
the A’s designated him for assignment any chance we pick him up and send Jaramillo to the minors to let him start everyday and see what he can do? and Fox can play C 1B 3B and some OF so hes very versatile and he struggled this year so far but his bat was always fairly decent? Idk Just a thought
I would rather bring up Kratz.
I do think JJ needs to go down to the minors to get everyday reps. His bat has really regressed. We’ve got a possibly good replacement in Kratz and maybe JJ can get his swing back down there.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 14, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Fox would be a potential asset. He’s no risk, potentially good reward. I would get him if I could.
by Suffering Buc on Jun 14, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you can use the DH as a position player (i.e. move Doumit from DH to catcher) if you want/need to and are just required to forfeit the DH and have the pitcher bat for himself after doing this. I really wouldn’t be too worried about the possibility of Jaramillo getting hurt and not having enough pinch hitters to hit for the pitcher the rest of the game in the whopping 9 interleague away games we play this year.
I remember way back
being at a high school game where there was major confusion over this, where a kid who was DH’ing and came into the game to pitch or something caused a fuss cause the manager didn’t know the rule (I didn’t either). I thought it was weird at the time, but the umpire in my case got it right, I learned sometime later.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/about_mlb/rules_regulations.jsp
“The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player… "
by C4M4 on Jun 14, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What’s worse, nine innings of incompetent play at first base or the remote possibility of three innings of incompetent play at catcher? I know which one I’d pick.
Exactly. How often does the backup catcher have to come into the game? It’s extremely unlikely to happen, and like you said, we have Walker if it does. This isn’t football, where injuries are fairly common.
Let’s just go ahead and add that third catcher to the roster, because what happens if the Pirates break the record for longest game ever played and both catchers become exhausted? We’re screwed!
And when it does happen, sometimes it works out just great
There is precedence that with an emergency catcher, and an alert, aggressive manager, ball games can be won.
Right Field
I’m still pushing right field as a better option. There is far less chance he can hurt you there.
But when you play at Detroit, please DH him.
Yeah, I think right field would be fine, at least until Doumit proves otherwise.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 14, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I would say he’s already shown he’s pretty bad there, but it’s probably a better option.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 14, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
RF
He can hurt you so many ways at 1b. In the OF, I think he can catch routine balls and throw well.
But it’s not going to be pretty.
In RF he doesn't have to try and catch a ball in the dirt
which seems to be his achilles heel.
by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 14, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't catch balls thrown right at him either-C or 1B
The guy sucks in the field. And unless he suddenly starts hitting the way some have expected for several years now, maybe we’ll get a C+ prospect in return later this year, instead of C grade.
The way Doumit hurts the team in the field and doesn’t exactly “rake” at the plate, I could see the Nuttings justifiably wanting to get his contract off the payroll soon.
He won’t be a part of a winner in Pittsburgh, so let’s get ready to move on without him.
I'm not sure I buy RF...
…as a less dangerous option for Doumit, given that he’s already pulled a hammy at least once playing OF in the past.
Vlad
Doumit could hurt himself going for the remote control.
I understand your point.
But he is a professional athlete. He’ll be shagging flies. It’s not like he’ll be part of a 440 relay team.
Yeah, he's injury-prone.
But since keeping him healthy and productive is supposedly the point of using him at non-C positions in the first place, I think the relative degrees of risk are an important consideration.
What's luck got to do, got to do with it?
“That Doumit’s error on Saturday was so costly was bad luck”
No, it wasn’t. If you play bad players out of position often enough, they’re going to play badly, and often at the worst possible time. It’s not “luck,” it’s inevitability.
Look, if you’d had Keith Hernandez in his prime playing first base in that game, the likelihood that we would have made such a routine play would have gone way way up. But who would have said, “It sure was good luck we had Keith Hernandez there”? You wouldn’t say that because Hernandez has the TALENT to play first base very well and Doumit decidedly does not. Luck had nothing to do with JR’s decision to put him there. Stupiditiy did. He was a time bomb waiting to go off.
You see what I’m saying? “Bad luck” I think is used too often as a cover for “We suck.” There’s some little amount of luck involved in the game, I’ll admit, but think of it this way: If you had a $500 million payroll and could afford to put together an all-star lineup for your team, and augmented that by signing Superman and the Flash to play in your outfield, you’d essentially completely eliminate luck as a factor/excuse.
People throw around “luck” likes it’s an intangible, like bad karma, like there’s just nothign you can do about it. But there js: You can buy luck. Bob Nutting chooses not to. Thus our “luck” results from a strategic decision, the wisdom of which is still uncertain at this time.
Does anyone recall the mistake that cost the Succo’s Friday night. Doumit let a ball get through him and into right field. The official score was a base knock, but that was clearly an error. He can’t play 1st period.
by Chucksberries on Jun 15, 2010 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait, are we trying to win this year?
It doesn’t look like it from all the roster moves and position changes. It seems we are more concerned with trying to figure out next years team and who’s going to get traded and bumping up their value.
Well, they should be figuring out next year’s team!
At this point, Huntington knows what he needs to do to field a potentially decent 2011 team.
The difficult issues are to bring in a shortstop, and probably 2 starting pitchers. The first issue is less urgent if D’Arnaud really comes on the rest of the year.
The much easier task is getting another corner bat (there are a ton of decent ones in next free agent class, so the price and selection should be reasonable).
Are the odds against the Bucs getting to the postseason even with these improvements? Sure. But McCutchen will only be here 5 more seasons. Tabata and Alvarez will be here 6 more. Jones might only be productive for 3 more seasons if we’re lucky. They’re not going to be here forever, so let’s see if they can win.
This year is over, but next year could begin to be somewhat interesting if the FO shows a commitment.
by Adam Reynolds on Jun 14, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't give a rat's ass now about our W-L record at the end of the season.
I’m concernend with the development of Cutch, Tabata, Alvarez, Walker, Lincoln, Hanrahan and Meek.
And there are a few others in the minors who might be a big help from the end of this year and certainly in the next one.
Most of the rest of the roster won’t have a damn thing to do with the Pirates hopefully returning to winning ways in a few years.
Anyway, if some of our draft experts are right, we really should want the #1 overall pick next year.
I don't advocate putting the Bad News Bears onto the field...
but I would like to see some on-field evaluation of what we have and where we think we would like to see them playing at some point this season. I don’t think teams generally do that in June or before, as we seem to be seeing in Pittsburgh. If we have a bunch of DH’s on the team and we are trying to market them for trades in the near future, let’s see more of DY and Aki, if Aki is on that list, and less of Church. We have seen what he can do – while his 3-pitch at bats tend to speed up the game, which is good, they are less than productive.
I could see some teams looking at Doumit as a DH, but there still has to be a market for a switch hitting catcher who can do a decent job at times behind the plate and has in the past played some right field and toiled at first. I wouldn’t put Doumit at first unless he needs a break from behind the plate. Rest wise, I mean…
Personally I think Tanner
would be a huge upgrade at SS
by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 14, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
NO MORE
STOP the experiments, we went through 2 months of it with DY, Doumit cannot play first base, he has no instincts for the position, much like DY.
When are the Pirates going to learn that any player cannot play anywhere.
Get Jones back to first, get Pedro on third, put Milledge in right and Doumit behind the plate, Church can DH.
A trade for a catcher or first baseman would not be a bad idea, no more released players.
Anybody can play first base.
Anybody capable of playing baseball, anyway.
People are just overreacting to one unfortunately-timed error.
Error
No, anyone cannot play 1st base, Doumit can’t.
The error was bad, but standing by 1st base after the runner leaves and ground balls whizzing past him that he should have been in position to field is not knowing how to play the position. On a major league level, that should come natural, I or someone else should not have to teach him that.
Just one of many things most 1st basemen would automatically know.
Dick Stuart managed to play first base well enough to keep a ML job there.
I refuse to believe that Doumit is less capable than Dick Stuart.
Sorry, but there it is.
ok one thing
Stuart was a much better hitter than doumit. Stuarts bad fielding made it hard for him to stick with one team or as a starter. With doumits all around game he isn’t good enough to overcome his fielding
by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 14, 2010 7:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ok one thing
Stuart was a much better hitter than doumit. Stuarts bad fielding made it hard for him to stick with one team or as a starter. With doumits all around game he isn’t good enough to overcome his fielding
by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 14, 2010 7:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ok one thing
Stuart was a much better hitter than doumit. Stuarts bad fielding made it hard for him to stick with one team or as a starter. With doumits all around game he isn’t good enough to overcome his fielding
by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 14, 2010 7:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ok one thing
Stuart was a much better hitter than doumit. Stuarts bad fielding made it hard for him to stick with one team or as a starter. With doumits all around game he isn’t good enough to overcome his fielding
by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 14, 2010 7:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m confused by the one of the four posts that apparently happened 22 minutes after the first three.
by thecheeseisblue on Jun 14, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Vlad
You’re just being silly.
Dick Stuart was a good hitter in the majors for many years and a part of the 1960 WS team and other winners.
Dr. Strangeglove had 228 HRs and 743 RBIs.
He was a good enough hitter that people could overlook his fielding problems to some extent.
But what the hell is Ryan Doumit? A clunker in the field who can’t execute some of the most basic fundamentals at C, 1B or anywhere else, and isn’t a particularly good hitter at all, especially away from C.
I’m not sure if you gave Doumit 100+ starts at first that he would be any better than some of the most atrocious fielders to play the position, especially with his confidence probably shot for good there.
I guess we need to keep Doumit for most of the rest of this season, if not all of it, but he won’t be missed when he’s gone.
Dick Stuart's career OPS+: 117
Ryan Doumit’s 2010 OPS+: 112 (with a 110 and a 127 in two of the other last three years).
So. Is he, or is he not, at least as good a fielder as Dick Stuart?
Or, for that matter...
…as good as Randall Simon, or Daryle Ward, or late-career-no-knees Kevin Young?
Aren't you the one always warning about small sample sizes?
Give Doumit something like 100 starts at first base and you would probably find that he’s god-awful at the position, maybe every bit as bad or worse than Dick Stuart, if Doumit didn’t get injured taking a throw off a body part first.
Incidentally, I find it hard to believe that you would look for a conclusive answer simply by the numbers when comparing fielding hacks like Stuart and Doumit when you never saw Stuart play.
Are you saying a statistical comparison is all you need to feel confident in your assessments of players each and every time you come on BD?
If so, you need to spend less time with your numbers and more time studying the game as it is played on the field.
Dick Stuart was such a good hitter for a number of years that his fielding woes could be overlooked to an extent.
But Ryan Doumit’s fielding blunders cannot be pushed aside. A decent hitter posing as a C from time to time, but not good at all as a hitter or fielder elsewhere.
The guy simply cannot catch simple throws to him at first base, or hold on to ordinary pitches to the plate, let alone difficult ones that most other catchers get or block.
He’s an embarrassment in the field, and I’ve got to believe his confidence is about shot.
He won’t get much for the Bucs on the trade market.
In the end, this debate is probably a waste of time. Doumit’s days in Pittsburgh are numbered, and I have my doubts he’ll be of much use to any big league club for more than a couple years from now.
I never saw Stuart play.
But I met him once, and tossed him a pen for an autograph. Which he promptly dropped.
Nice guy, hard worker, and all that, but when newspaper reports talk about fans giving a guy a standing ovation for catching a wind-blown hot dog wrapper in his glove, then I feel fairly comfortable in saying that his glove was pretty grim. Particularly when the guy in question holds the single-season record for errors by a first baseman.
Just to be clear: You are, in fact, now suggesting (if not directly claiming) that Doumit is a worse first-base defender than a guy nicknamed “Dr. Strangeglove”?
Just to be clear, Vlad.
I said no such thing.
I said if you gave Doumit a large enough number of starts at first-the number 100 just as an example for a large enough sample size in a season-that he could be as bad or worse.
I’ll grant you that worse is nearly impossible.
But hypotheticals in each previous post, Vlad.
I can’t say for sure because I didn’t see Stuart’s fielding every day for years as I’ve seen with Doumit at a few positions, including a little at first.
Do you want to give Doumit a season at first base to find out?
Dick Stuart did something well, which was hit and hit for power. He wasn’t just a “nice guy and a hard worker.” He was a very important piece of some outstanding teams for a number of years, including the 1960 one.
Ryan Doumit does nothing well. He just does not hit well enough to overcome his defensive shortcomings.
He shouldn’t be an everyday player anymore, even for the Pirates.
The sooner the team comes up with a better situation defensively at C, the better.
Unless the team finds a taker for his err…talents… later this year, we’ll probably be stuck with by default.
If you want to have the last word on this, go for it.
Runs are runs.
Stuart put up a higher percentage of his runs through the long ball than Doumit does, but OPS+ doesn’t lie. If that level of offensive performance was good enough for Stuart to be an everyday 1B, then the same level of offensive performance is good enough for Doumit to be as well.
Now, I’m not saying that Doumit should be an everyday 1B. I’m not convinced that he should be anywhere but behind the plate, even on an occasional basis. But to pretend that his glove is so bad as to make him unthinkable as a 1B option is to deny reality. I’m tired of hyperbole regarding Doumit’s defense; I prefer to deal in facts.
But I met him once, and tossed him a pen for an autograph. Which he promptly dropped.
Ha ha, good one!
Totally not kidding, which is the best part.
It was at an event celebrating the 30th anniversary of the 1960 team. Everybody was there except Vinegar Bend Mizell.
Eleven-year-old me had an awesome time.
Vlad
I’d disagree with you. I saw an interview with Willie Stargell one time after he moved to 1b.
He called learning the position the most difficult thing he’d ever done.
You have to hold runners on. You have ground balls. You have pop ups. You have bunt defense. You have to catch and throw. You have to help with cutoff throws.
I actually think 2b and RF are far easier positions to learn and play.
Stargell went from outfield to 1st...
Doumit is moving from maybe the busiest position on the field to one that is clearly less busy. One could argue that the level of dexterity needed for 1st is less than that of catcher. Certainly the number of plays with direct involvement, particularly in the area of ball handling, is greater at catcher. I have seen a ton of guys transition from catcher to 1st, mostly due to age and injury when the skills have diminished. Haven’t seen too many 1st basemen convert to catcher. The fact that Doumit seems to have some issues with plays at first not that far removed from routine means something. Maybe it means he just needs more reps there. Maybe it means he isn’t any damn good at it. Maybe it means he is disinterested in the move. Who knows?
Catcher to first ...
is certainly a more common move. I’m not sure why anyone would move to catcher unless it were the only way to stay in MLB.
I agree 1b is less busy. But that doesn’t mean it’s an easy transition. Moreover, I’m not sure Doumit has the skills or desire to make the transition.
My point was simply that 1b is a tough position. You can’t just go there for a game and thrive. Look at all the work Clement did in spring training just to become okay.
You're welcome to disagree if you like...
…but there’s a reason every totally-immobile ironglove gets stashed at first base, rather than second or right.
Let's just respectfully disagree
First base is the only option if you can’t run.
But it’s certainly not the best option for an iron glove. Too many tough plays.
It’s certainly not the best option for a player who doesn’t understand the game. You’ll have someone not covering the bag or dropping simple throws.
Obviously, Doumit can’t play 2b. But he could play RF. If Gomes can play OF, anyone can play OF.
Personally, I vote that they change the rule and enable DH’s to move into the field later in the game, but only due to injury or something to that effect. If MLB doesn’t want to make it a full-time rule, then why not make it a rule solely for interleague play for NL teams?
I mean, since NL teams aren’t built to have a full-time DH, they have to move one of their fielders into the DH slot, which can have adverse effects if there’s an injury, which is precisely the remote possibility which likely forced JR to start Doumit at 1st. However, if he was allowed to DH and only move into the field if an injury occurred, then even if Jaramillo did get injured, we would be able to move Doumit there.
Can’t change the rules for inter-league. They don’t change the rules during World Series games in the AL ballpark, so why do it now? The DH should be able to replace an injured fielding player, resulting in the pitcher now having to bat.
Actually, inter-league play is stupid, and the DH is even more stupid.
by Chucksberries on Jun 15, 2010 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions
For the game in question, Doumit couldn’t play catcher because they didn’t want to chance him getting a second concussion within a certain time frame.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 14, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
But, he was okay the next day to catch after Saturday’s debacle. I think he could of been a DH that game or caught, IMO, they wanted to see him play first.
No.
They said all along that Sunday was the first day he was able to catch again. The reason is that there are studies that show a second concussion within a week’s time is doubly damaging. So, teams are adopting guidelines to avoid that.
Since the concussion came the past Sunday, they weren’t going to risk putting him behind the plate before the next Sunday.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 14, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
That said
Of course, he could have DH’d.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 14, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone is different.....
this is not an exact since, ask Ryan Church. Treating them all the same is equally dumb.
They do have the tests as well.
But the science is pretty clear on the consecutive concussions, so a week is the minimum they will risk.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 14, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
so batting and risking getting hit in the head with a pitch
isn’t just as risky as a foul tip?
by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 15, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
which was a day game....
so it was basically 15 hours later. Don’t know what is worse, the position they chose to play him or the medical guidelines they followed.
Sean Casey broke his back playing first.
I’m confident Doumit can manage a similarly gruesome injury.
Trade bait
I agree with the post a bit ago; the front office wants to move Doumit, so they’re trying to increase his value by showcasing his versatility. But yesterday’s game backfired on them. Oops
The other thing.....
to note on the trade front is we DON’T have a catcher capable of stepping in this year or next at the moment.
Yes
In the same way Argenis Diaz is more than capable of playing shortstop for the Pirates right now.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 14, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
And what's wrong with bringing Kratz up??
there’s an opening on the 40 man after Taschner was DFA’d.
Trade Bait
Everybody is forgeting the walkoff home runs that Doumit hit this year. Also playing RF you need a strong arm. Remember Roberto Clementes arm playing RF.
And we all remember that Clemente wore shoes on his feet
And so does Ryan Doumit. I think you may have something there.
by MarkInDallas on Jun 14, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
His jersey also said
Pirates on it just like Clemente. I am sure other teams will notice the similarities as well.
by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 15, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Comparison
A Clemente and Doumit comparison ranks up there with a Bryce Harper and Brad Eldred one.
Well until Harper does something in the majors
its not as crazy
by eyeofhorus777 on Jun 15, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Doumit is a catcher plain and simple. he is not very athlectic and he just looks ackward
playing 1st. This move makes about as much sense as asking a point guard to start playing center.
Kenneth Lewis Moore
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